Rollers! Feedback, Suggestions And Rants.

[Ganpot]

The suggestions in the OP make sense, but there is a slightly easier way to nerf rollers.  Just reduce their health and armor so they can be 1-shot from most weapons, and take away their ability to stun a player in mid-air (that is seriously infuriating).  After those changes, rollers would still be a nice threat when combined with normal Grineer, but they wouldn't eternally stun-lock everybody. 

[Tsukinoki]

The suggestions in the OP make sense, but there is a slightly easier way to nerf rollers.  Just reduce their health and armor so they can be 1-shot from most weapons, and take away their ability to stun a player in mid-air (that is seriously infuriating).  After those changes, rollers would still be a nice threat when combined with normal Grineer, but they wouldn't eternally stun-lock everybody. 

 If they couldn't stun in mid air I would be much happier with them in a mission. As it stands I do the ONE move I have to handle groups of enemies rushing at me when I am out of energy e.g. jump slam, and guess waht? They stun you out if it making the hard counter for them useless.

@Madotsuki

I love the idea of a Grenadiers but have suggested it to Elhazzared before and her reply was basically "Only stunlocks are valid challenges no matter how you improve the AI/Add new units". Having a unit that can flush you out of cover without being cheap and stunlocking you would be ideal. And while they are at it they can improve general grineer AI: eg making ballistas use cover better/have better mobility to get to sniping positions and whatnot.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Elhazzared]

force you out of cover?

 

no way

 

if anything they force me into cover till iv dealth with anoying things so they dont stunlock me out in the open

 

Only if you have a place to retreat safelly which more often than not, you don't. They force you out of cover because they simply stagger you out of cover, if you move out of cover by your own inniciative you'll still take shot, but you won't be staggered and can at least deal with the roller so you can dive back into cover.

 

 

So, your argument is that Roller's role is to flush people out of cover. Guess what, we don't NEED Rollers for that.

 

GRENADIERS. Yes, Heavy Grenadiers. Why not introduce a WHOLE NEW unit? He could be like the demoman from TF2, shoots pipebombs that arc over cover or bounce off walls. Combined with AI aimbot, it's the perfect way to flush people out of cover without having to resort to little balls rolling around staggering people and making them hide on boxes. Trying to hide behind a box to recover your shields, and suddenly pipebombs fly over the box and lands right in front of you, and you run the hell out of cover to dodge the explosion. That is so much better that Rollers! Give Rollers more of a role as a disruptive support unit, that messes up your aim when you're trying to shoot and just generally harasses the player. Plus, this is a game about Space Ninjas. Rule of Cool ought to be considered. And of the two suggestions i gave, the first does not even involve a decrease in Roller attack rate, and simply gives you the ability to retaliate with blocking. The second one was to make Rollers more of a "strategic" enemy to deal with, with the whole counter-attack thing, and works well if Rollers came in a small horde.

 

And staggering/knockdowns/anything that takes control away from the player often should be minimised, not introduced everywhere! The Infested at least has the excuse that they are melee-based, and even then there should be an "invuln" period after being stunned once to prevent long stunlocks if surrounded. Railgun Moas are large targets that can easily be shot down when you see one, rarely appear at more than 2 at a time, stands still to shoot and makes an identifiable sound and animation before they fire which gives you time to roll away. Rollers are small, relatively quiet, move around all the time, can come in massive amounts (especially in Kela's bossfight) and in a way doesn't even fit in with the people-based Grineer faction, even though as i said before i guess it adds a certain amount of variety.

 

Why can't you just think outside of the box for a little instead of wanting to keep everything the same as it currently is? It's a beta, why not suggest new content while patching existing content too?

 

You already have bomb throwing units and guess what, they don't force anyone out of cover. I don't really care for the grenades unless they were to deal a ton of damage and really, making enemies bullet sponges and dealling large amounts of damage is a bad way to increase difficulty. It's a mix of damage, number, AI and variety of attack types.

 

Let me tell you what is the problem with your first sugestion. For starters block mechanics are bad and even the Devs admited that, they will remove it the moment they can work out something better and it is on the process. This not to mention that unless you actually had a shield (a physical shield) it would seam a little bit strange to block a huge metal ball with spikes.

 

The second doesn't makes it more strategic in any way. You have an enemy going around and doing exactly nothing, just waiting to be shoot down mercylessly without even doing anything to you and if it even had a chance to come at you once, it would be one stagger and it was dead, it would never under any circunstance do more than that. If anyhting this would make them useless, even in a horde if they barelly attack at all, if there is a move around period, you just butcher them easly unless you make them incredibly bullet spongy which again, is bad.

 

Taking control away from the player shouldn't be minimised. So long as it doesn't goes to the point where you can't play and it doesn't because while it rarelly happens, it is nothing so often as to be alarming. Then it is ok. Remember that the major advantage of this game is mobillity and the fact that there are enemies that take that away from you is a good way to make the game more difficult.

 

Also please don't tell me that Railgun moas are ok because there are always few and there are a S#&$ ton of rollers. I've played quite a lot and I've found 3 rollers once once outside mobile defense missions and even in mobile defense missions you don't get more than 3. Kela is a bad example of lots of rollers, if you have lots of rollers on Kela, then you are a bad player. Prioritising the death of rollers is what you should be doing. Kela isn't even hard by any streach of the imagination. Still the point is, at best you find one or two in normal missions. You may found them in various rooms, but you never have more than one or two to deal with.

 

It's not thinking outside of the box, I've made a few sugestions myself. Yes it's beta but if I see a sugestion aimed at making an easy game become even easier then I can't really support it can I? Again I'm not saying, make this game hardcore. But at least give it a reasonable amount of difficulty. Even the boss fights are way to easy, they don't require nothing more than spamming high DPS guns in their direction, small exception for jackal which at leat has a minimal amount of thought on boss mechanics, you need to shoot the legs to get the shield down so you can hurt it. Obviously he is an easy boss once you're high level but the point remains that he is the only boss which has some eforth put into making.

[LunarWind]

Elhazzared, on 16 Apr 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

1. Kiting - So, why does kitting provide a challenge. Why to you need to even have cover in a game? Well, that's because eventually your shield breaks and you'll need to hide behind something to let it recharge. Now while you are hiding and reloading/recharging your shield one roller shows up. Start kiting it, so you don't get staggered but hey, you were forced out of cover and your shield barely recovered anything and now you have to kill the roller and find cover again. That adds challenge, that makes you rethink your approuch to certain situations. sure you can chose to stay in cover, but you'll still not recover your shields withthe rollers attacks alone and odds are you'll be staggered out of cover anyway... Easly it can be said that it adds challenge and you even know this, you just don't like the fact that this happens.

2. Boxes - Yes a box, such a broken thing isn't it? Only that while you jump on top of it to avoid the roller, the entire world sees you and can shoot at you. Congratulations, yes you sucessfully stoped the roller from getting you to, but you became a bullet magnet. If you have a lot of shields and can kill the roller quickly, this is a viable tactic... Or if there aren't many enemies to shoot at you, otherwise you obviously won't do this... Looks like this isn't broken after all and while it requires no skill to stand on a box, it requires situational awareness as to when you can do this!

3. Ultimate - Not everyone has a ultimate that can deal with the rollers but I think every warframe has at least one power that helps dealing with them and I'll speak on that base. Let me start to ask, how is it not a strategy to save your energy to deal with specific situations? I dunno how you use your energy, maybe you just spam abillities as soon as you have energy to do it. Personally I save them for when they are needed. If I'm playing Rhino I save energy either to become invunerable when things are ugly, or to be able to push through a horde of enemies surrounding me. I don't need energy to just kill random stuff, I need it to save my &#!. Similarly on my ember, I save my energy to either use world on fire when there is too many enemies close and yes, it deals with the rollers easly enough or I use my energy on overheat to get some damage reduction if the situation is ugly and the ultimate is not a good solution.

So if you can't think of this as being viable strategies with merits, then that's your problem. Fact is, if you don't have the rollers being as badass as they are now, then you might as well get rid of the grineer altogether because they are not even going to pose a challenge.

Quoted for Truth.

Rollers do add interesting behaviors to players. They successfully alter the methods we use to engage the Grineer.

Could something else fulfill the same role (Hah, roll) while being less annoying? Maybe, but I'm all for the devs sticking with what is already working and giving us new content.

[Mfne]

The one thing that is really a problem with them is the fact that they will stun you in midair, without the need to even hit you.

You should be able to actually evade them by not getting hit, this currently does not work.

(This is an angry post, just coming back from a solo run where I died at the very end to a single damn roller and some grunts. Spent all 4 revives, just to find myself immediately stunlocked by that stupid thing again, unable to make any move.)

Edit: What's up with this editor, everything I type just comes out as one huge wall-of-text...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Mfne

[Elhazzared]

Well, what do you expect from an AoE attack? That it affects only if you are in the ground reguardless of the actual attack distance it should have?

Obviously the attacks should hit you while in the air. Now if you are high enough in the air the attack will miss simply because you're out of range. It is working perfectly fine. You and everyone else for that matter know that the rollers have AoE attacks, I don't understand why it comes as a surprise that it hits while you are in the air or why does this particularly bothers you. In fact if there was something that I'd change, it would be the MOAs shockwave. It should affect people in air because it's an AoE attack and the fact that it stupidly doesn't (Stupidly because it doesn't makes sense since it encompasses a large area) makes people want to be invunerable while in the air.

 

Also if you lose 4 revives to a roller and 4 grunts. Then I'm sorry but I have no other way to put it. You really suck badly at this game... Well, either that or you are too low level for the planet you're in. I'll give that as a possibillity.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Elhazzared

[Mfne]

Excuse me, but what part of "unable to make a move" is so hard to grasp?

 

It doesn't matter if you are terrible at the game or the best player on earth, if none of the buttons you can mash has any effect, then you cannot do a thing but watch.

 

The level itself wasn't even that hard with a bit of experience tbh, it was just a problem of hilariously bad game design allowing the player to end up in situations where no further input can change anything.

 

 

(And what part of the rollers you assume suggests AoE is beyond me, unless they also have invisible extra blades... if by AoE you mean poor hit calculation where they hit you even if they should not hit, then yea.)

Edited April 16, 2013 by Mfne

[Elhazzared]

Ok so you were unable to make a move because? I mean, 4 enemies not problematic, one roller hardly stun enough to not let you do anything. If anything this is either very bad play or you were on a much higher level than you should be. There is no other way you could have died to that. You can move, you can shoot, you can use abillitites, the roller will only stagger every now and then, it does it once, then you can act for a while before it staggers you again and it staggering you again only happens if you're a bad shot, you haven't reloaded your weapon and if you're standing there like a sitting duck.

 

Well if you don't understand that Rollers have a short AoE attack, then that is your problem, everyone else knows that. It's not poor hit calculation, yes the attack range is superior to how far the blades actually extend, possibly about the double of it I can't really say how far but yeah, it's further than you can see it reach and it's AoE, it even hits multiple people at the same time. Again I'm sure you have noticed it... The reason the blades reach farther than what you can see is simply because it would make no sense to make the blade visually twice or three times as long as the ball but balance wise that's how far reaching they have to be.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Elhazzared

[TheTenthDoc]

How do people who jump onto boxes manage to actually hit the stupid rollers? Without a target mine always just fly around.

Also, there is nothing challenging about being switch teleported into multiple rollers (even worse if a shield is around!). Or having a Roller spawn behind you with two lancers, even if you cleared the room. I mean, I'm luckily enough to be on Ember which can actually clear them almost instantly, but jeez.

Edited April 16, 2013 by TheTenthDoc

[Mfne]

Problem basically just was getting staggered twice in a small passageway, without being able to avoid it. Grunts unfortunately get to point blank and add their bashing me in the face with rifles, ended up in permanent stagger.

Revive puts me in exactly the same spot, before I can pull range the roller stops me again, more grunts make it into range. Rinse and repeat...

You could argue about the level being too high, but about 15-20 seconds of pretty much full incoming damage from 5 enemies meaning death is still reasonable in my book. And in fact the whole level, while definitely a challenge, was manageable. Survived a couple rollers before that event without problems, too.

Now, about the blade thing, what possible reason could there be to not have them as long as the effect range? The Moa blast radius indicates exactly how far the effect goes, and it is pretty much industry standard to have a clear indication to the player what is happening and why. So my point still stands, it's either poor calculation, improper stat definitions, or poor visual representation.

And it looks pretty stupid on top of it all, the ball passing easily 3 feet below you, and your guy starts stumbling in mid-air for no apparent reason.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Mfne

[Elhazzared]

Well they could give it a different animation, but it wouldn't change their effect. In time even without it showing you, you do get a proper eye measure of it's range... Not hat I actually need it cause I never get hit more than once by the rollers.

 

Again you let yourself into that situation, don't forget you have 1 second of invunerabillity after a revive, you can't even be staggered, use that time to run away from everyone else and it shouldn't have took you more than that honestly, if you're surrounded, jump first and tehn move, you'll get out of the place for sure.

 

I agree that being staggered airborn is a little bit dumb. It's a lot more reasonable (all things considered) that if you get staggered airborn then you'd just fall flat on your &#!. Be grateful DE hasn't done it yet... Not that I'd mind, I don't tend to jump a lot if those buggers are around... unles I'm doing jump sword attacks which also work like a charm but not my style.

 

 

How do people who jump onto boxes manage to actually hit the stupid rollers? Without a target mine always just fly around.

Also, there is nothing challenging about being switch teleported into multiple rollers (even worse if a shield is around!). Or having a Roller spawn behind you with two lancers, even if you cleared the room. I mean, I'm luckily enough to be on Ember which can actually clear them almost instantly, but jeez.

 

I will agree with you. Spawning enemies in the same room and worse yet, near you is dumb. I see sometimes enemies spawning out of thin air and this seriously annoys me. I was havign a great run with a Rhino which belive it or not, no detection whatsoever and the few times I was seen no one ever got to trigger the alarm. Then just as I was leaving a room a guy spawns by a console, sees me and triggers the alarm... Damn was I pissed off, especially cause I was near the end. Hell I managed to kill Vor without even triggering the alarm...

This I do belive DE needs to address. No spawning in the same room as you or close enough to a door so far as to open it the moment they spawn. For that matter there should be fixed spawn points for the enemies and again without the possibillity of spawns in the room that you are.

[MJ12]

Rollers are hated, and DE knows it. It's not the hitboxes, it is the entire enemy. We already voiced our dislike for stun/stunlock, adding another source is not going to make people happy. There is hope that whoever invited these things feels really bad - I hope you do - for it, and sees the errors of his/her way and ceases to answer "What should our new enemy do?" with "Stun/Stagger!" - because if there's is one more of these enemies, I'll flip a serious table.

 

 

All in favour, raise your hand.

 

o/

 

No no no, see, what you need to do is find the guy who invented them. Then whenever he suggests a new enemy which staggers, knocks down, or stuns the player, you stagger him then knock him down.

[MJ12]

In any game Dev shouldn't be able to beat their own content and that's because players are bound to be a whole lot better than Devs, everyone knows this.

 

This isn't AI War: Fleet Command. Beating the hardest planets was never intended to be a bug. Pluto is not meant to be inaccessible. This is also a terrible metric because devs play games as well, and there are bound to be tons of guys who aren't 'better than Devs'.

 

(If you're not familiar with AI War, the devs ask anyone who beat the hardest difficulty [10/10] to send them a replay of their game and the strategies they used because, paraphrasing, "if you can beat the AI on Impossible this is a bug. Humans shouldn't be able to beat the AI on Impossible.")

 

Incidentally AI War is hilariously accessible and adjustable with difficulties from 'granny can play by just attack-moving a blob of ships at the enemy' to 'No you aren't supposed to be capable of beating the game. Period.' This accessibility, not its Impossible difficulty, is actually the important lesson it teaches in difficulty.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

force you out of cover?

 

no way

 

if anything they force me into cover till iv dealth with anoying things so they dont stunlock me out in the open

 

 

edit: i mean you need 3 of the blody things for them to even be considerd dangerous to your health

 

if anything forces you out of cover its the 5 lancers that bust thru the door to the room you just cleared 5 sec ago and start unloading into your back

Yeah. Rollers don't force me out of cover, they force me into cover because that way I can get them caught on boxes and stuff, making them easy prey.

[Elhazzared]

Yeah. Rollers don't force me out of cover, they force me into cover because that way I can get them caught on boxes and stuff, making them easy prey.

 

Wait until they stagger you out of cover and then you are both out of cover and staggered, then tell me how they don't get you out of cover, I pretty much answered that guy's post but feel free to ignore it.

 

 

This isn't AI War: Fleet Command. Beating the hardest planets was never intended to be a bug. Pluto is not meant to be inaccessible. This is also a terrible metric because devs play games as well, and there are bound to be tons of guys who aren't 'better than Devs'.

 

(If you're not familiar with AI War, the devs ask anyone who beat the hardest difficulty [10/10] to send them a replay of their game and the strategies they used because, paraphrasing, "if you can beat the AI on Impossible this is a bug. Humans shouldn't be able to beat the AI on Impossible.")

 

Incidentally AI War is hilariously accessible and adjustable with difficulties from 'granny can play by just attack-moving a blob of ships at the enemy' to 'No you aren't supposed to be capable of beating the game. Period.' This accessibility, not its Impossible difficulty, is actually the important lesson it teaches in difficulty.

 

The game is supposed to be accessible... Well I don't agree that end game content should be easy or accessible. It should be hard as hell! Granted, there isn't much reguarding end game content but with the lack of, best you'd have to say that the last planet should be pretty damn tough and it isn't, it's just another walk in the park made situational more hard if all the correct elements present themselves like a situation of multiple roller staggering you out of cover and similar situations, however on most cases, no, not even accessible, it's just plain easy.

 

Kinda why I like to play against infested. It's a hate/love relationship. They aren't particularly hard but if you run out of ammo and you don't like to use mellee then yeah, they become more of a challenge. Since I don't use my mellee all that much and like to explore the whole map it becomes kinda problematic to deal with them at points. I also have loads of ammoboxes that I get from either missions or daily login rewards but I just don't bring them to keep things interesting.

[Madotsuki]

Okay Elhazzard, tell me something. Why do you love stunlocking? Why do you enjoy having your control taken away from you, and be unable to move your character? How could not allowing the player to play the bloody game be a good design? I played through Borderlands 2 on solo (including most of TVHM), and not a single one of the enemies can stagger me in any way, or stop me from doing anything, yet the enemy variety was endless. Even the most annoying enemy, the Wormhole Thresher, which can suck you into its proximity and continuously damage you with its body spikes until you're dead and you can't outrun the suction, still allows you to attempt to beat the snot out of it up close in a DPS battle so that you at least have a chance to bust out. No matter what happened, you could do something about it. Yet when it comes to the sheer ton of staggers and knockdowns in Warframe, you can't. You can't roll out of it, you can't perform a quick recovery, there's barely any invuln timer, you can only watch as your character stumbles all over the place, gets knocked flat on his &#!, none of your input does anything and then you die. I have no idea why anyone would enjoy stunlock, and quite frankly I'm not interested, because clearly, only an extreme minority actually likes stunlocking.

 

Also, there's a distinct difference between my proposed Grenadiers and common grenades. Common grenades stick to the first surface they touch and immediately explode. Due to idiotic AI, the current troops don't take into account props and cover and will blindly throw their grenade at an arc aimed at the player's feet wherever he is, thus leading to the grenade sticking to the front side of the box and detonating, and leaving the player on the back side of the box safe. With an increase in AI, that can be easily fixed. But the Grenadier, doesn't shoot these sticky grenades. It shoots pipebombs, which can bounce off walls or roll slightly on the ground. And Troopers only throw one or two grenades occasionally. I related to the Grenadier to the TF2 Demoman, because i expect him to be able to unload at least 4 pipebombs before needing a reload, at 1 bomb a second. With each bomb dealing a base 150 damage up close and increases with enemy level, hiding in cover while a Grenadier is launching at you is suicide. Again, with the PROPER AI which takes into account props and doesn't just blindly aim at your feet wherever the hell you are, both pipebombs and grenades can be effective tools to flush you out of cover. Want to add more strategy? Improve AI! Add new enemies to fill holes! Enemies who do not rely on cheap stuns! Rollers are not the only option! BE CREATIVE!

[Madotsuki]

 If they couldn't stun in mid air I would be much happier with them in a mission. As it stands I do the ONE move I have to handle groups of enemies rushing at me when I am out of energy e.g. jump slam, and guess waht? They stun you out if it making the hard counter for them useless. @Madotsuki I love the idea of a Grenadiers but have suggested it to Elhazzared before and her reply was basically "Only stunlocks are valid challenges no matter how you improve the AI/Add new units". Having a unit that can flush you out of cover without being cheap and stunlocking you would be ideal. And while they are at it they can improve general grineer AI: eg making ballistas use cover better/have better mobility to get to sniping positions and whatnot.

 

 

The one thing that is really a problem with them is the fact that they will stun you in midair, without the need to even hit you.

You should be able to actually evade them by not getting hit, this currently does not work.

(This is an angry post, just coming back from a solo run where I died at the very end to a single damn roller and some grunts. Spent all 4 revives, just to find myself immediately stunlocked by that stupid thing again, unable to make any move.)

Edit: What's up with this editor, everything I type just comes out as one huge wall-of-text...

Actually, I think Rollers jump up right before they hit you. At least, they used to. That would at least explain why they can mid-air stagger you. Doesn't make it any less cheap though.

[Tsukinoki]

Actually, I think Rollers jump up right before they hit you. At least, they used to. That would at least explain why they can mid-air stagger you. Doesn't make it any less cheap though.

 

The single hard counter to them is countered by their basic attack. What should be done is make it so that enemies just cant stagger you after you hit E in mid air.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I want Rollers to stay just the way they are.

 

They are an enemy that mixes up combat against Grineer which, without Rollers, boils down to "sit behind a wall, get free headshots."

 

 

1. As I’ve mentioned before, use them as an opportunity to give blocking a bit more purpose. If a player blocks when a Roller hits them (player has to be facing the Roller), he performs a batting animation that sends the Roller flying a good distance, temporarily disabling the Roller when it lands back on the ground, and deals significant damage. I don’t want it to require a “precision timed” block to perform this as it could be extremely problematic when combined with lag. Requiring the player to be facing the Roller should be enough.

 

2. A harder to implement idea. Change the Roller’s AI so that instead of continuously charging the player at every opportunity, Rollers will attempt to zig zag and circle the player, going in and out of cover, staying a short distance away and making it harder to hit them. Every once in awhile, when it has line of sight to the player, it will stop and start revving up, spinning rapidly on the spot (it is invulnerable in this stage), with sparks flying off the ground around it. After 2 seconds of spinning, it charges in a straight line at the player at double the normal speed, doing medium-high damage and making the victim stumble. If it hits a wall/box, it also creates a short-range shockwave that knocks down players around it (half the Heavy stomp range). After the charge, it’ll be vulnerable again and can’t move for a second before starting to accelerate back to the circling phase. Imagine 4-5 Rollers circling around you like hungry wolves, preparing to strike. That would be fun to fight.

 

1.) Your first suggestion about being able to block Rollers, knock them away and stun them makes Rollers utterly trivial. Not only do you avoid every type of damage or function they provide for Grineer by simply facing in their general direction and holding down a button, but you suggest that it stun them as well, essentially giving you a free kill as Rollers do not have a ludicrous amount of health and go down in a few simple shots. There's more strategy involved in fighting simple power fist Grineer than there is fighting Rollers, if this was implemented.

 

Right now, strategy against Rollers is either find a place to avoid their damage, or just get better at aiming. By themselves, Rollers aren't that big a problem, however their purpose is to be mixed in with other Grineer enemies, greatly increasing the strain and challenge on players by adding in new elements into an engagement. You can't sit on top of a box if a group of Lancers are in view. You shoot the Roller or avoid the Roller and kill the less-mobile Grineer. Changing Rollers to be completely and utterly negated while you're safe behind cover defeats the purpose of the Roller.

 

2.) While your idea is novel enough, it boils down to this; what you are asking for is for Rollers to attack less, and to stand still and be vulnerable for an entire 2 seconds (a direct conflict to their low health/high speed nature). This just screams of asking Rollers to be brought down to an enemy that is easily dealt with in the same manner as Grineer. Rollers are supposed to be simple in their attacks; they are just ball-shaped robots, they shouldn't have any sense self-preservation or notion that they are valuable. They are just as disposable as Moa walkers, which shows in their AI behavior of walking towards players until they are able to shoot. You may think of it as simple and rudimentry, but I see it as following true to their robotic nature; no self-preservation, no worries for their own life, while human enemies will frequently run to hide from you.

 

Your suggestions are basically gutting the Rollers to a state where they are much, much easier to deal with, and I don't think that's what Rollers need. What they need, is to be left alone and do their job; they are meant to be an annoying enemy that serves to mix up gameplay against Grineer faction, and they accomplish that role beautifully. Their ability to stun is meant to be a punishment for being hit. Don't want to get stunned? Get better at the game, employ better tactics.

Edited April 17, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[SFkenny]

From a design perspective, the Rollers are a great enemy.

Fighting three of these #@*&$@s with a platoon of Grineer and Heavies at their back, however, renders them the spawn of SATAN. *rant rage*

They are an absolute death sentence for anyone soloing with a Paris bow. Pistols barely connect with them, and their propensity to zigzag means running away and shooting them is very difficult.

[thesorrow]

id like to see the stagger from almost all enemys decrease in chance to stagger you it takes away from gameplay alot

[Madotsuki]

I want Rollers to stay just the way they are.

 

They are an enemy that mixes up combat against Grineer which, without Rollers, boils down to "sit behind a wall, get free headshots."

 

 

 

1.) Your first suggestion about being able to block Rollers, knock them away and stun them makes Rollers utterly trivial. Not only do you avoid every type of damage or function they provide for Grineer by simply facing in their general direction and holding down a button, but you suggest that it stun them as well, essentially giving you a free kill as Rollers do not have a ludicrous amount of health and go down in a few simple shots. There's more strategy involved in fighting simple power fist Grineer than there is fighting Rollers, if this was implemented.

 

Right now, strategy against Rollers is either find a place to avoid their damage, or just get better at aiming. By themselves, Rollers aren't that big a problem, however their purpose is to be mixed in with other Grineer enemies, greatly increasing the strain and challenge on players by adding in new elements into an engagement. You can't sit on top of a box if a group of Lancers are in view. You shoot the Roller or avoid the Roller and kill the less-mobile Grineer. Changing Rollers to be completely and utterly negated while you're safe behind cover defeats the purpose of the Roller.

 

2.) While your idea is novel enough, it boils down to this; what you are asking for is for Rollers to attack less, and to stand still and be vulnerable for an entire 2 seconds (a direct conflict to their low health/high speed nature). This just screams of asking Rollers to be brought down to an enemy that is easily dealt with in the same manner as Grineer. Rollers are supposed to be simple in their attacks; they are just ball-shaped robots, they shouldn't have any sense self-preservation or notion that they are valuable. They are just as disposable as Moa walkers, which shows in their AI behavior of walking towards players until they are able to shoot. You may think of it as simple and rudimentry, but I see it as following true to their robotic nature; no self-preservation, no worries for their own life, while human enemies will frequently run to hide from you.

 

Your suggestions are basically gutting the Rollers to a state where they are much, much easier to deal with, and I don't think that's what Rollers need. What they need, is to be left alone and do their job; they are meant to be an annoying enemy that serves to mix up gameplay against Grineer faction, and they accomplish that role beautifully. Their ability to stun is meant to be a punishment for being hit. Don't want to get stunned? Get better at the game, employ better tactics.

So what you are saying is, Rollers are perfect despite the amount of people who want them tweaked or even outright removed, and everyone should just play your way or get stunlocked to oblivion.

 

My ideas use less strategy than a Powerfist? THERE IS NO STRATEGY TO POWERFISTS, IN THE SAME WAY THERE IS NO STRATEGY TO FIGHTING ROLLERS CURRENTLY! You just point a rifle at it and hold down the button! Think about that! Why not implement a tactic that's something new and unique to the enemy instead of just "aim better"?? What if I have a Paris, hmm? Should I be auto-screwed for having a Paris on a Grineer mission? Sure, maybe the block shouldn't do direct damage to it and will simply knock it away for a short disabling so you can shoot it down, but that's not easy when you have a dozen other grineers and other rollers beating down on you at the same time! It would just provide a breather, so that you can deal with it a little latter! Hell, if the idea was implemented, why not buff Roller health a little and/or give it high rechargeable personal shields that go down when it's stunned by a block, but can still be taken down with sheer firepower if you're a good shot? Space Ninjas ought to be a creative bunch! Surely they could come up with a strategy other than just "SPRAY BULLETS AT THE CIRCLE THINGS"? And the second idea is mostly based on having a group of Rollers at once instead of 1 anyway. Oh and you didn't read the part about how when it's revving up it's invincible, so you can only either hit it while it's zigzagging all over the place or during the one second when it stops after an attack, did you?

 

Right now, I've mentioned this a billion times, the so called "better tactics" involve hiding on top of boxes (if rollers are alone), running away like a pansy so you can isolate them (if other grineer are present), or throwing an ult. These are the most generic and boring "tactics" ever. Want more variety? Want to spice up the faction? Suggest some new units! Heavy Grenadiers, BL2 Badass Nomad-esque Heavy Shielded Smashers, Ballistas with JETPACKS! Suggest better AI! Smarter grenade throwing, better flanking, better unit combos! Don't just sit there and say "DUR EVERYTHING'S FINE YOU JUST NEED TO LRN2PLAY, NOOOOOBS"! I mean, come on, little balls that do nothing except roll around and stunlock players, in a faction that's based on human infantry? DE can do better than that!

[Liminal]

I'd be happy if they just gave them the same hp/armor Ospreys have (I mean, they are too tough for how annoying they are). I would prefer more dramatic changes though.

[MoonicusMaximus]

So what you are saying is, Rollers are perfect despite the amount of people who want them tweaked or even outright removed, and everyone should just play your way or get stunlocked to oblivion.

 

The reason for people wanting Rollers removed is always the same; they are an annoying enemy that disrupts the way they want to play the game. Nobody seems to have a real complaint about Rollers beyond the usual "I hate them". If we let these people's complaints on Rollers shape how they are, then we'd just have the Grineer be an entire faction with which the strategy for every unit would boil down to "stand around a corner, shoot in face."

 

And, again, being stunned is supposed to be a punishment. You are entirely, totally capable of avoiding any and all damage a Roller does to you. There's really no other way to say this besides stating it flatly; just get better at dealing with them.

 

My ideas use less strategy than a Powerfist? THERE IS NO STRATEGY TO POWERFISTS, IN THE SAME WAY THERE IS NO STRATEGY TO FIGHTING ROLLERS CURRENTLY! You just point a rifle at it and hold down the button! Think about that! Why not implement a tactic that's something new and unique to the enemy instead of just "aim better"??

 

Because the appearance of Rollers does change your tactics. You have to move much, MUCH more than you would against a powerfist Grineer; they can be knocked out of their attacks with a simple melee swing, while Rollers cannot. The strategy for dealing with Rollers is very different from other Grineer; it requires a higher amount of movement and more precise aim, or the use of a skill, whereas the rest of the Grineer unit roster is simple cover/shoot. I would call that something "new and unique" in an enemy.

 

What if I have a Paris, hmm? Should I be auto-screwed for having a Paris on a Grineer mission? Sure, maybe the block shouldn't do direct damage to it and will simply knock it away for a short disabling so you can shoot it down, but that's not easy when you have a dozen other grineers and other rollers beating down on you at the same time! It would just provide a breather, so that you can deal with it a little latter! Hell, if the idea was implemented, why not buff Roller health a little and/or give it high rechargeable personal shields that go down when it's stunned by a block, but can still be taken down with sheer firepower if you're a good shot? Space Ninjas ought to be a creative bunch! Surely they could come up with a strategy other than just "SPRAY BULLETS AT THE CIRCLE THINGS"? And the second idea is mostly based on having a group of Rollers at once instead of 1 anyway. Oh and you didn't read the part about how when it's revving up it's invincible, so you can only either hit it while it's zigzagging all over the place or during the one second when it stops after an attack, did you?

If you have a Paris, switch to your sidearm and shoot it. If you have something like a Lex as your sidearm? Then you're just out of luck pal; diversify your arsenal some if you're trying to solo a mission so that you can deal with multiple enemy types.

 

It wouldn't matter in the slightest how much health or shield the Roller would have if simply BLOCKING it stunned it and put in at a safe fire distance; one block and a second or so of sustained fire and its gone, without a second thought, in the most simplistic, boring fashion possible. Rollers as they are are in a great place; they are weak and quick, and require a good amount of movement combined with good aim, or the use of a skill if you aren't that good at shooting fast-moving objects. They don't need any change in their behavior.

 

The revving up might be a decent idea, but only as an addition to the Roller's current attack pattern. You shouldn't be trying to make the Roller EASIER to deal with. Any suggestion that comes down to "I would like Rollers this way because, at this point, they would be easier to kill" is just an inability to cope with the Roller's current form.

 

Right now, I've mentioned this a billion times, the so called "better tactics" involve hiding on top of boxes (if rollers are alone), running away like a pansy so you can isolate them (if other grineer are present), or throwing an ult. These are the most generic and boring "tactics" ever. Want more variety? Want to spice up the faction? Suggest some new units! Heavy Grenadiers, BL2 Badass Nomad-esque Heavy Shielded Smashers, Ballistas with JETPACKS! Suggest better AI! Smarter grenade throwing, better flanking, better unit combos! Don't just sit there and say "DUR EVERYTHING'S FINE YOU JUST NEED TO LRN2PLAY, NOOOOOBS"! I mean, come on, little balls that do nothing except roll around and stunlock players, in a faction that's based on human infantry? DE can do better than that!

 

The purpose of this thread is discussion on Rollers. If you want to suggest new units, make another thread. We're talking about Rollers right now.

 

And you are right, the tactics used against Rollers are simple; however, that is why Rollers are thrown at you in addition to other Grineer troops. It makes it so that engagements have multiple layers of events that you have to perform. Do you flee and deal with the Rollers first before going after the Lancer squad in cover across the room? Do you dodge the Roller and instead do your best to kill the Lancers before the Roller makes a swing around? What if there's a surprise Heavy Gunner? The purpose of Rollers is to add extra layers to combat events against Grineer; you need to stop thinking about them on an individual level and think of them as an addition to a Grineer squad, which is what they are.

[MJ12]

Those 'extra layers' of depth they add to Grineer are encouraging the exact opposite kind of gameplay that's fun in Warframe.

 

You keep saying "if the Grineer didn't have rollers they'd boil down to 'hide in cover, get free headshots". This is what Grinders boil them down to, not the Grineer themselves. Because yes, cover-cheesing was optimal compared to, say, acrobatic kung-fu melee massacres, and would let you cheese high-level Grineer with low-level weapons and warframes. But it was a hell of a lot less fun and when people are given multiple options a significant number of people will choose the most fun one, practicality be damned. Then DE added Grinders. Which, because of their specific movement mode and what they do... make charging into melee way the hell less fun. So congratulations. You've encouraged guys to hide behind cover forever until they (tediously) kill every single Grinder that's spawned, because Grinders are frustrating as hell. You also encourage guys to stand on top of boxes and facetank everything instead of staying on the ground and mobile where Grinders can get them.

 

You know what Madotsuki's ides for new units do? They actually prevent cover-cheesing instead of encouraging it further. This is what people actually want, instead of, you know, a unit which is best dealt with by hiding in cramped corners of the map waiting for them to get stuck on terrain because a badass space ninja's greatest fear is a militarized volleyball. Look at the open beta trailer. Notice the distinct lack of random stunlocks from beachballs. Nobody is playing the game because you can get randomly stunlocked by softballs. They are playing because you can cut down hundreds of guys with a huge sword and a shotgun while turning on godmode for a short period of time and walking through enough bullets to sink a battleship.

 

I find it hilarious that the people who advocate most for higher difficulty in Warframe are often the people who beg and plead for Grinders (and the prevalence of terrible gimmicky stunlock enemies in general) to stay the same. As long as they stay the same, you will never get actual difficulty. You know why? Because they force you to play a certain unintuitive way to actually have something resembling fun instead of staggerlock frustration. That means a lot of people will find the game 'hard' because it's either "stand on a crate and trivialize everything/facetank everything" or "die from stunlock and get really mad". This means that anything that prevents 'facetanking everything while standing still' automatically breaks the game into unplayability for a significant percentage of the playerbase because they simply don't have the reactions to handle gimmicky fast-moving small-hitbox HP piles which stunlock you after a single hit.

Edited April 17, 2013 by MJ12