So.... As The Tenno We Are Actually Terrorists?

[Ionus]

Also, can you tell the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?

Freedom fighters in a literary setting tend to at least try to win over public opinion by trying to expose the oppression party for what it is. Whereas terrorists traditionally target the public itself in order to spread fear.

Seeing as we have no "public" or "freedom" we're aiming for, it is difficult to call the Tenno either.

Sure, we use guerilla tactics every so often, but that doesn't automatically make us terrorists or freedom fighters.

Tenno by themselves are a culture, a sophisticated group, if you will. We have been woken up with no memory by some strange figure just as some guy tries to gut us at gunpoint.

Later we're taken into a solar system where anybody that isn't a fellow Tenno either wants us dead on the spot or to sell us in pieces. We have nobody to follow but the lady who saved our arse when we woke up.

"She could be lying."

Well sure, she COULD. But right now we have no rational reason to doubt that we saved those colonists in our first mission. Or anything else she has told us.

Our goal as Tenno is to keep the leading powers in check, even ourselves. We have yet to conquer territories. We don't take planets. We so far have left Corpus and Grineer infrastructure intact. We are inhibitors. We only want to prevent one power over the system because in the long run it will affect US.

[ra9una]

I don't know about you all, but I'm just a tourist site seeing. Leaving behind me a degree of collateral damage and a mortality count previously only associated with planets exploding.......I hate tourists.

[Masterofm]

Freedom fighters in a literary setting tend to at least try to win over public opinion by trying to expose the oppression party for what it is. Whereas terrorists traditionally target the public itself in order to spread fear.

Seeing as we have no "public" or "freedom" we're aiming for, it is difficult to call the Tenno either.

Sure, we use guerilla tactics every so often, but that doesn't automatically make us terrorists or freedom fighters.

 

First off I want to say I both like and respect the points you are trying to make.  It is indeed a matter of perspective.  I could easily argue against the idea that the Tenno are freedom fighters.  We aren't really fighting for freedom otherwise we would just drop a ton of death dealing tenno to wreck shop on the Queens and then eliminating the council thus forcing the Grineer to be without leadership completely cutting the grinner off at the legs.

 

 

Tenno by themselves are a culture, a sophisticated group, if you will. We have been woken up with no memory by some strange figure just as some guy tries to gut us at gunpoint.

Later we're taken into a solar system where anybody that isn't a fellow Tenno either wants us dead on the spot or to sell us in pieces. We have nobody to follow but the lady who saved our arse when we woke up.

"She could be lying."

Well sure, she COULD. But right now we have no rational reason to doubt that we saved those colonists in our first mission. Or anything else she has told us.

 

Technically the Tenno have no culture.  If we have no memory of who or what we are there is no culture that we can tap into.  There are only one or two beings that actually remember our culture (stalker being one.)  Right now the only culture that persists with the Tenno is to make zen like rooms and kick the ever loving patooty out of the infected, corupus, or grineer.  Not really culture.

 

But that is the point I'm trying to make.  All our information is streamlined through one source.  A source who knows that the corpus or grineer are going to try to vent the atmosphere of a ship and won't send in oxygen pods beforehand to help you out.  A source who always takes longer to hack then she says she will.  A source who is rarely right, or will change the mission parameters on you, or will just end up messing up.

 

As a source Lotus is actually pretty unreliable if you look at it.  As an AI construct she is wrong on a consistent basis.  Is that by design or by purpose?  What if there is more to the story?  What if there is a nefarious wheeling and dealing underneath all of what we have come to know and think is real?

 

Our goal as Tenno is to keep the leading powers in check, even ourselves. We have yet to conquer territories. We don't take planets. We so far have left Corpus and Grineer infrastructure intact. We are inhibitors. We only want to prevent one power over the system because in the long run it will affect US.

 

Not to want to broach a political sore spot with many people, but here is the rub.  It is a matter of perspective.  Firing rockets into Israel is called an act of terrorism.  Israel retaliating isn't.  Despite creating more civilian deaths.  I'm not saying one side or the other is right, but the only people who are saying we are doing the right thing..... is ourselves.  And a shoddy AI that tends to be wrong quite often.  It's just something to think about is all I'm saying.

 

 

I don't know about you all, but I'm just a tourist site seeing. Leaving behind me a degree of collateral damage and a mortality count previously only associated with planets exploding.......I hate tourists.

 

So..... you hate yourself?  Don't hate yourself man.  That's no good.

 

 

Superb post ... 1+

 

Evenhanded and critically thorough - a shinning example of solid analysis whose purpose is to engage additional discussion rather than win argument

The forum needs more of this

 

 

Why thank you! =)

 

 

It seems that the point of this is to keep a balance between the Corpus poweres and the Grineer powers. In many evensts, the Lotus told us 'blablabla Grineer too powerful blablabla Grineer needs nerf' or 'blablabla Corpus new prototype blablabla prototype too good blablabla destroy it blabla'

 

And again it points back to my main point.  It is what the Lotus told you.  She tells you a lot of stuff, and she is often wrong.  As Tenno we are just doing as we are told.  We don't really listen, and we don't really care.  We just kill.  How can you blame the fact that the Grineer just wanted to kill us before we were able to wake up?  We are just dealers of death.  

 

 

 

PERSPECTIVE TIME:

 

In this game I have killed about 200,000 things with only my weapons on hand.  This doesn't even include all the ships that I've also blown up filled with dudes.)  Just me alone.  Think about that for a moment.  I, as a single Tenno, being woken up have killed an entire major city' s worth (and in some cases 2+ cities) of beings.  If one was to sit back and think about that the risk of not killing something like that would be like trying to prevent a nuclear bomb from being detonated.  Probably more like multiple nukes considering all the collateral damage.  It makes sense why they would just want to kill us dead the moment we are found.

 

If every Tenno is a potential "walking destruction of an entire city's worth of people" wouldn't you want to stop that from happening too?

Edited September 1, 2014 by Masterofm

[Ionus]

As a source Lotus is actually pretty unreliable if you look at it.  As an AI construct she is wrong on a consistent basis.  Is that by design or by purpose?  What if there is more to the story?  What if there is a nefarious wheeling and dealing underneath all of what we have come to know and think is real?

 

 

Not to want to broach a political sore spot with many people, but here is the rub.  It is a matter of perspective.  Firing rockets into Israel is called an act of terrorism.  Israel retaliating isn't.  Despite creating more civilian deaths.  I'm not saying one side or the other is right, but the only people who are saying we are doing the right thing..... is ourselves.  And a shoddy AI that tends to be wrong quite often.  It's just something to think about is all I'm saying.

 

I believe this is mostly because of game design rather than carrying a conspirital meaning. The queues for Lotus' warning aren't really streamlined to make much sense.

 

If the voiceovers for Lotus was better at detecting in-game events not as many people would distrust Lotus.

[Masterofm]

I believe this is mostly because of game design rather than carrying a conspirital meaning. The queues for Lotus' warning aren't really streamlined to make much sense.

 

If the voiceovers for Lotus was better at detecting in-game events not as many people would distrust Lotus.

 

While I understand what you are saying I feel like that is a flat excuse.  Let me ask you this question then.  If someone was to mess up as much as the Lotus would you trust them?  I understand this isn't reality and drawing said comparison isn't quite fair, but I'm just saying if someone messed me over as much as the Lotus did I would be unable to trust them.

 

Shutting down the avenue of discussion due to a "what if" scenario against another "what if" scenario doesn't really seem to serve the discussion.  I'm also not saying it is conspiratorial but more saying what if everything we know is wrong?  What if what we believe is nothing but a lie?

 

If this is true I feel it makes for much more compelling storytelling.  If not then Warframe is just a walking cliche.  Not a bad thing for what it does it actually does quite well, but I like the idea that at any moment the entire world as we see it could be flipped on it's head.  And it is a possibility.  Certainly not a certainty, but at least it could be a potential thread.

 

It would be able to string a lot of things about the lore and events that don't quite make sense, and it would make all the other characters and bosses seem more human.  Doing the wrong thing for what they believe to be the right reasons.  A'la Assassins Creed Templars.  

 

Which is funny because even in assassin's creed you are still an assassin.  In the same way that a Tenno can still be considered a terrorist.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Masterofm

[Ionus]

~snip~

 

The only reason I find the "everything we know is a lie" argument hard to believe is because we have no solid, in-game reason to distrust the Lotus. Janky voice queues aren't a good reason to think she is hiding something.

[Masterofm]

The only reason I find the "everything we know is a lie" argument hard to believe is because we have no solid, in-game reason to distrust the Lotus. Janky voice queues aren't a good reason to think she is hiding something.

 

So the rational that I am using, that actually happens in the gosh darn game game, gets to be discarded based on a bias?  I have to say that isn't fair.  We absolutely have a solid in game reason to know that the Lotus doesn't always get it right.  Trying to blame it on "janky voice queues" is exactly the reason why she isn't trust worthy if you are looking at it from a purely in game perspective, because it absolutely happens in the actual game game.  And has for over a year and could have been removed, or changed, or augmented, or made to make the Lotus infallible.  But it hasn't been done.

 

I'm saying "everything we know could potentially be a lie" and that is far different.  So yes I absolutely have a solid in game reason to distrust the Lotus.  Doesn't mean she shouldn't be trusted or what she is saying is nothing but the truth, but that doesn't mean there isn't a possibility.  And if that possibility became a reality I think it would make for more compelling story.

 

Using the argument that the voice queues were not intended to be used that way is ham handed at best.

 

However even with that being said for the actions the Tenno take we are the minority and the majority of the solar system at this point I believe would see us as terrorists.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Masterofm

[Feallike]

Pssh Terrorist? Why would you put us in those weaklings. WE ARE GODS!

 

WE DO WHAT WE WANT, KILL WHAT WE WANT, STEAL WHAT WE WANT, AND DESTROY WHAT WE WANT!

 

 

We are the gods of this solor system, how dare you put us in the ranks of lowly Terrorist! >:o

[Ionus]

So the rational that I am using, that actually happens in the gosh darn game game, gets to be discarded based on a bias?  I have to say that isn't fair.  We absolutely have a solid in game reason to know that the Lotus doesn't always get it right.  Trying to blame it on "janky voice queues" is exactly the reason why she isn't trust worthy if you are looking at it from a purely in game perspective, because it absolutely happens in the actual game game.  And has for over a year and could have been removed, or changed, or augmented, or made to make the Lotus infallible.  But it hasn't been done.

 

I'm saying "everything we know could potentially be a lie" and that is far different.  So yes I absolutely have a solid in game reason to distrust the Lotus.  Doesn't mean she shouldn't be trusted or what she is saying is nothing but the truth, but that doesn't mean there isn't a possibility.  And if that possibility became a reality I think it would make for more compelling story.

 

Using the argument that the voice queues were not intended to be used that way is ham handed at best.

 

However even with that being said for the actions the Tenno take we are the minority and the majority of the solar system at this point I believe would see us as terrorists.

 

I'm not completely dismissing your theory of the Lotus, however based on DE's long running reputation of leaving small bugs and inconsistencies in the game for the longest of times(launcher ammo, Red Veil hostages still have a lotus symbol and share appearance with the guy in the "warframe cryopod") I'm sure you can understand my hesitance.

 

Another reason for my reluctance of distrusting Lotus is that a few things suggest she actually cares for the Tenno. For example, the hidden messages quest:

 

 

"I tell her I won't lose her. That I have another ship on its way. She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno... the second blueprint has been recovered."

 

"I see the eyes open and the heat blinds me. I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever."

[Kaotyke]

Terrorist is such a strong word.

 

I prefer, Chaotic Neutral Space Mercenary Ninja really.

 

 

shout out to the Canadian New Music Network?

and what of the other factions?

Tenno: Lawful Neutral

Grineer: Lawful Evil

Corpus: Lawful Evil

Infested: Chaotic Evil

 

......... we are really in the Grey and Gray Morality here

[Ionus]

and what of the other factions?

Tenno: Lawful Neutral

Grineer: Lawful Evil

Corpus: Lawful Evil

Infested: Chaotic Evil

 

......... we are really in the Grey and Gray Morality here

 

I think Corpus are more Neutral Evil, with the "money is our goal" shtick they got going on.

[Masterofm]

I'm not completely dismissing your theory of the Lotus, however based on DE's long running reputation of leaving small bugs and inconsistencies in the game for the longest of times(launcher ammo, Red Veil hostages still have a lotus symbol and share appearance with the guy in the "warframe cryopod") I'm sure you can understand my hesitance.

 

Another reason for my reluctance of distrusting Lotus is that a few things suggest she actually cares for the Tenno. For example, the hidden messages quest:

 

 

"I tell her I won't lose her. That I have another ship on its way. She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno... the second blueprint has been recovered."

 

"I see the eyes open and the heat blinds me. I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever."

 

I agree with you.  Yes it could be DE's long running bug kind of deal.  DE has done that and it is a potential.  But wouldn't it be cool to take something like that and turn it into something else?  Something bigger?  Maybe she wants to save only the Tenno and wipe out all other life?

 

Even then though look at that quote.  Really look at it.

 

"I tell her I won't lose her.  That I have another ship on its way.  She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno... the second blueprint has been recovered."

 

"I see the eyes open and the heat blinds me.  I hear her comforting me.  Telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her forever."

 

 

 

Think about what was said for a moment.  Lotus lied.  She said another ship is on it's way, but there was no other ship.  Why would she say that?  You can really take it two different ways if you wanted to.  She also doesn't talk about how she cried or how she felt.  Just that this is what happened. I just think it would be nice to have something more.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Masterofm

[vaugahn]

We know the Orokin had AIs, and we know some of them are now omnicidal. It's not unreasonable to think that lotus could be one.

[KawaiirawrxDkys]

or you know we could just be the good guys..............-.-lol

Edited September 1, 2014 by leviticus23

[Ionus]

I agree with you.  Yes it could be DE's long running bug kind of deal.  DE has done that and it is a potential.  But wouldn't it be cool to take something like that and turn it into something else?  Something bigger?  Maybe she wants to save only the Tenno and wipe out all other life?

 

Even then though look at that quote.  Really look at it.

 

"I tell her I won't lose her.  That I have another ship on its way.  She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno... the second blueprint has been recovered."

 

"I see the eyes open and the heat blinds me.  I hear her comforting me.  Telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her forever."

 

 

 

Think about what was said for a moment.  Lotus lied.  She said another ship is on it's way, but there was no other ship.  Why would she say that?  You can really take it two different ways. I just think it would be nice to have something more.

 

I interpreted it personally as self-denial in her moment of helplessness, which is why it made her sound more...motherly I guess?

[Ionus]

or you know we could just be the good guys..............-.-lol

That would be boring.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ALighterShadeOfGrey

[Mak_Gohae]

Only terrorists are sent into missions to get ice for sushi.

[Kaotyke]

I think Corpus are more Neutral Evil, with the "money is our goal" shtick they got going on.

The "A-hole Alignment"?

 

hm... true that, since they just go for the highest bidder. Makes more sense.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Kao-Snake

[ravend]

Well in that case, isnt everyone a terrorist in someone elses eyes? If i go to a sta... a popular coffee house and order a coffee black ( yes i know the strange looks will be given). later on i find out that they charged and then posted on a popular social media that i ordered a coffee black, isnt that terrorism as well? We dont attack civvies or there places of rest. we attack military targets only, keep in mind that the grineer have a strangle hold on the solar system. the corpus have proven they will experiment on everything and anyone to make the newest and lastest weapons. When we kill a civvy or blow up a cargo ship carrying food. then you may consider what we do as terrorism for the lotus. attacking military ships and there armed (usually heavily) crew is an act of war, not terrorism. Do we get payed for doing a mission sure, do we keep what we kill sure. This practice has gone on for centuries for many different nations and military philosophies.

[vaugahn]

Well in that case, isnt everyone a terrorist in someone elses eyes? If i go to a sta... a popular coffee house and order a coffee black ( yes i know the strange looks will be given). later on i find out that they charged and then posted on a popular social media that i ordered a coffee black, isnt that terrorism as well? We dont attack civvies or there places of rest. we attack military targets only, keep in mind that the grineer have a strangle hold on the solar system. the corpus have proven they will experiment on everything and anyone to make the newest and lastest weapons. When we kill a civvy or blow up a cargo ship carrying food. then you may consider what we do as terrorism for the lotus. attacking military ships and there armed (usually heavily) crew is an act of war, not terrorism. Do we get payed for doing a mission sure, do we keep what we kill sure. This practice has gone on for centuries for many different nations and military philosophies.

 

1. Coffee =/= terrorism

 

2. Corpus ships may be civilian/merchant ships. They're not as militarized as the Grineer, and they don't seem to have any actual soldiers. Also, attacking a military base out of nowhere can be considered terrorism.

[ndantony]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Hey, if you are a winner you can rewrite the history the way you want it!!

[Masterofm]

I interpreted it personally as self-denial in her moment of helplessness, which is why it made her sound more...motherly I guess?

 

 

I think you are right, but I still think you could take it two different ways.  If Lotus has gone off the rails there are points in any good writing where something evil and chaotic can still have moments of torn conflict.  That which they wish to destroy can sometimes also wish to protect that which they want to destroy.  It would also be very interesting if that was the moment that broke her.  The idea that as the war is unending it should all just go away and end in silence.

 

What is more interesting is the question as to how did Lotus end up forgetting what happened?  Did she purposely forget?  Cut that part out of her due to not wanting to deal with the loss?  It's not like she got her programming scrambled.... and if she did...........

 

 

1. Coffee =/= terrorism

 

2. Corpus ships may be civilian/merchant ships. They're not as militarized as the Grineer, and they don't seem to have any actual soldiers. Also, attacking a military base out of nowhere can be considered terrorism.

 

You need to stop making sense.  That is just too much sense making.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2014 by Masterofm

[Masterofm]

Well in that case, isnt everyone a terrorist in someone elses eyes? If i go to a sta... a popular coffee house and order a coffee black ( yes i know the strange looks will be given). later on i find out that they charged and then posted on a popular social media that i ordered a coffee black, isnt that terrorism as well? We dont attack civvies or there places of rest. we attack military targets only, keep in mind that the grineer have a strangle hold on the solar system. the corpus have proven they will experiment on everything and anyone to make the newest and lastest weapons. When we kill a civvy or blow up a cargo ship carrying food. then you may consider what we do as terrorism for the lotus. attacking military ships and there armed (usually heavily) crew is an act of war, not terrorism. Do we get payed for doing a mission sure, do we keep what we kill sure. This practice has gone on for centuries for many different nations and military philosophies.

 

There is something interesting to your post that I can't quite describe.

 

For one thing having your information posted isn't terrorism.  It may be an invasion of your privacy, but as terrorism it's not meant as an act to spread terror.  There is something called "cyber terrorism" but what you describe doesn't fall under that category either.  You could have much stronger arguments, but none of what you are saying, sadly, holds water.

 

When you go to war you go to war.  But if the Tenno were at war why aren't grineer ships finding, and blowing up Tenno guild halls?  The type of fighting going on isn't really a war.  If you consider the fighting that went on after the US held and occupied Iraq a war I'd honestly be quite shocked.  That is why people called it a "war on terror" and not a straight up war.  Because there was no war.  The war was won.  The US rolled into Iraq and held it.  What came next were acts of "terrorism," and that is why we were then fighting a "war on terrorism."

 

My point is you don't know if you are killing civies or not.  In a merchant ship they must all be members of the military?  Corpus are traders and merchants.  Blowing up a ship and thinking they are all evil is a core idea behind indoctrination.  Getting to think they are all bad is certainly a great idea to never have to think of the consequences of your actions.  Are families on that ship?  Do Corpus raise generations of progeny as space traders on a ship?  Where are the children?  They would of course never be submitted to combat, but to think a military base (or trading base) never has children on them is fairly silly.  The grineer are all clones so it's easy to think that they might just step out of a capsule as a warrior, but are the Corpus the same way?

Edited September 1, 2014 by Masterofm

[vaugahn]

You need to stop making sense.  That is just too much sense making.

 

I've long speculated that the Corpus don't have a dedicated military force. Unlike the Grineer, who have military-ish unit names and different armor types and stuff, all human Corpus are simply called "crewmen" and wear unarmored space suits. Their main military force comes from their proxies, which are obviously built for combat, but their human units seem to just be armed astronauts. Also, the infested ship tileset has the Corpus gun batteries hidden behind huge shutters, it's possible Corpus ships are similar to Q-ships used during WW1 and WW2.

[ElHefe]

As of right now, this thread teeters on the precipice of semantics ...

 

While generally it is the prerogative - and responsibility - of the person who initiates/instigates discussion to provide definitions of essential terms, for purposes of continuing productive discussion, consider the following:

 

Definition:  Terrorism - the use of violence or acts dangerous to life as well as threats of intimidation or coercion for political aims, including as a method of governing as well as resistance to a regime

 

This can include violent or dangerous acts which violate federal or state law, attempts to sway governmental policy through such acts as mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition)

 

To summarize the thread author's position:

1. The Tenno are a blank slate who willingly submit to the authority of The Lotus

2. While The Lotus' stated aims are to provide balance - which is inherently a political aim - her true nature and therefore her real purpose are both unknown

 

That said, the thread author has used the term "terrorist" correctly in broad terms ...

The big "What IF?" concerns The Lotus' true intentions

 

In THAT regard, I do not think that there is sufficiently strong case to be made that she is an anti-biologic hate-monger purposed to wipe out organic sentient life

The most compelling contradictory evidence is found in Mirage's Codex - unless you also stipulate that The Lotus is insane as she has self-contradictory sentiments

 

The point that the thread author makes that I find so intriguing is the uncritical acceptance that The Lotus is good

Even though she aids you in innumerable ways, that does not lift the possibility of her having other than totally benign intentions

 

After all, the Tenno were MADE to save the Orokin but in the end destroyed them

How mixed up is that for a start on life?

 

It is natural to assume in an RPG that you are either "the good guy" or "the bad guy" and stay within those restrictive labels for the entire game

In my opinion what the thread author is REALLY challenging is our perception of ourselves

 

How would you feel after doing everything asked of you that you then asked to do the unimaginable?

Would then conscience stir?

Or would it be business as usual?

Edited September 1, 2014 by ElHefe