Fix The Vectis...nay Fix All Snipers

[Semshol]

-snip-

 

If you followed the conversation, it was debated that this is not about snipers not having a niche. This is realistically about consistency of crits.

 

Right now the Vectis needs more consistency. We don't want a 100% crit chance, nobody does. 35% base would require a sacrifice for 100% critical, which most of us wouldn't use with good reason. It would however enable 87.5% crit (point only) which is just good enough.

 

Also all snipers have innate. Vectis is not unique because it doesn't, it is unique because of the 1 magazine chamber. Right now it is under-powered because of the lack of innate punch-through. I would thus like to see it have that innate punch-through which is a defining feature of everything in the sniper class.

 

Consistency is what we aim for, not an averaged out DPS that is better, not a higher damage boost, we just want some consistency in our shots. 62.5% is way too low for a 1 round rifle.

[Semshol]

I think that the Vectis would be too OP with a 35% crit chance and a 2m punch through. It would outclass the bows with would make me VERY angry (because of how hard I had to work to get the Paris Prime.)

 

Please potato a Vectis, put 5 - 6 forma on it (same as Paris Prime). Go into T4 Void and compare the two weapons.

 

35% chance would bring it ON PAR with the Paris Prime that sees Red and Yellow numbers.

 

Vectis wouldn't even get close to the red numbers, we'd just have yellow and it wouldn't even be 100% chance unless we sacrifice for critical delay, which most of us wouldn't because raw-damage starts to be important. It would however be just good enough.

 

Please try out a weapon before making a judgement.

[(PSN)Roxas144]

I never use bows so sorry if im wrong here. But doesnt the vectis have around the same DPS as the boltor prime? At least it does on the warframe builder website. I know there is a difference from stats in game and on paper, so maybe someone could explain why its so bad? The only thing I can think of is since it shoots only that one round instead of spraying. Or maybe bows are just to good and need to be brought down?

Edited September 5, 2014 by (PS4)Roxas144

[Semshol]

I never use bows so sorry if im wrong here. But doesnt the vectis have around the same DPS as the boltor prime? At least it does on the warframe builder website. I know there is a difference from stats in game and on paper, so maybe someone could explain why its so bad? The only thing I can think of is since it shoots only that one round instead of spraying. Or maybe bows are just to good and need to be brought down?

 

Please do not use the builder, its inaccurate for bows and snipers because yeah...averaging, which doesn't actually happen in game. You don't get 62.5% of your crit power x'D

 

Bows DO NOT need to be brought down. The underpowered one here is the sniper.

 

To understand why it's underpowered, potato and forma your vectis 5 - 6 times, then go do the same with paris prime and compare the two. Paris Prime will easily outperform.

 

This is due to crit. inconsistency on the Vectis, 62.5% means crit procs around 75% of the time, and usually 1 round from split chamber will crit, but it still leaves a gap window of 25% of the time when you're not really doing your full damage and that's when we have big mess, especially against level 50 - 70+ enemies.

 

Hence I am suggesting buffs to the Vectis that will bring it on par with bows and on par with other snipers.

 

FYI, all other snipers have innate-punchthrough, only Vectis doesn't for some weird reason. I think it should at least get that to be in the same class as the rest of its fellows. If it gets that, then most of us can slap on a critical delay to bandage the crit. rate. Or, if it gets a crit buff, we can slap on Shred/Metal Auger, as a band-aid for the punch-through. Either buff will work, having them together would maxmize the Vectis and make it top-tier like it really kinda should be.

 

My preference though would be the innate punch-through.

 

Bows also already have 100% crit and innate-punchthrough with slightly lower damage than the Vectis so yeah that's THEIR advantage and I have no intentions of taking it away.

[Psychosist]

I never use bows so sorry if im wrong here. But doesnt the vectis have around the same DPS as the boltor prime? At least it does on the warframe builder website. I know there is a difference from stats in game and on paper, so maybe someone could explain why its so bad? The only thing I can think of is since it shoots only that one round instead of spraying. Or maybe bows are just to good and need to be brought down?

There is an inherent flaw when comparing a full-auto rifle like the Boltor Prime and a semi-auto sniper like the Vectis. Comparing their DPS is like comparing fruits to spoons. They're fundamentally different items being compared, and you can't compare them side-by-side because they don't share enough common properties. The only trait the Boltor Prime and Vectis may share is DPS, and that's it. They do completely different jobs and fit entirely different playstyles.

 

Now with that cleared up, the difference between BoltorP and Vectis (although they may have similar DPS) is that BoltorP can spread its DPS, while Vectis' DPS must be focused onto a single target at a time. Boltor Prime has the choice of doing 16k damage/sec to a single enemy, or it can do 8k to one enemy and then 8k to another within a second. It's much more flexible at handling crowds. The Vectis, if it does 16k DPS, will only be able to deal that DPS to one enemy at a time. This in turn makes it less efficient than the BoltorP at killing, because in the time Vectis can take down one enemy, BoltorP can likely take down 2 or 3.

[(PSN)KalGerion_Beast]

I think that the Vectis would be too OP with a 35% crit chance and a 2m punch through. It would outclass the bows with would make me VERY angry (because of how hard I had to work to get the Paris Prime.)

Paris prime has 45% crit chance and 5m of innate penetration.  

 

Vectis would do more damage to less enemies, Bows do slightly less damage but have over double the penetration and (realistically) the ability to red-crit.  

 

I feel like DE isnt buffing it so that they dont need to put the vectis prime (when its released) into its own god-tier.  They want vectis prime to be comparable to other strong weapons, not the basic vectis.  On a related note, I feel like this is why soma prime wont happen.  

Edited September 5, 2014 by (PS4)KalGerion_Beast

[taiiat]

Any moderately high level corrupted heavy gunner don't go down with a bow shot on body. If you carry a bow, you'll find yourself struggling to aim for the head at high levels, failing most of the times because arrows are slow and sacrificing any punch-through viability.

i... hit things with Ballistic Weapons just fine. Hitscan Weapons are the ones that are unreliable, because there's no such thing as Hitscan.

 

i've grown up with the habit of shooting Firearms in games like they have a trajectory like.. well, anything that's real. Hitscan Weapons result in me missing my targets a fair amount of the time.

 

while Ballistic Weapons hit where i want them to hit automatically, i don't think, my hand just aims the gun right.

 

 

Ballistic Weapons of all kinds work just fine for me. i'd have higher Accuracy with everything if we finally got our separate Mouse Sensitivity Multiplier for Freelook and Fine Aim. since the former is too sensitive and the latter not sensitive enough. but the game doesn't currently let me fix that, it's a global slider.

but i miss few shots with Ballistic Weapons, while Hitscan ones i... well, i definitely miss more.

 

not to mention needing to worry about if the match i'm in is laggy, because Ballistic Weapons seem to take a higher priority it network updating than Hitscan ones do.

 

 

 

i still like the 35% Crit Chance for most Sniper Rifles in general, because that number is perfect to support alterior Playstyles.

i know i'd use Critical Delay on quite a few guns with a 35% Crit Chance. that would be more of my niche, while some may prefer to only use Point Strike.

 

if we can take off our tinfoil hats and stop fighting over nothing for a few minutes, maybe we can come up with more ideas that are as perfect as a 35% Crit Chance. things that support Alterior Playstyles while solving the issue at hand.

those kinds of solutions are the best solutions. killing many birds with one stone.

 

 

Edit:

Boltor Prime has the choice of doing 36k damage/sec to a single enemy, or it can do 18k to one enemy and then 18k to another within a second

FTFY ;)

 

the disparity is just too large to not make the numbers more accurate.

Edited September 5, 2014 by taiiat

[Semshol]

There is an inherent flaw when comparing a full-auto rifle like the Boltor Prime and a semi-auto sniper like the Vectis. Comparing their DPS is like comparing fruits to spoons. They're fundamentally different items being compared, and you can't compare them side-by-side because they don't share enough common properties. The only trait the Boltor Prime and Vectis may share is DPS, and that's it. They do completely different jobs and fit entirely different playstyles.

 

Now with that cleared up, the difference between BoltorP and Vectis (although they may have similar DPS) is that BoltorP can spread its DPS, while Vectis' DPS must be focused onto a single target at a time. Boltor Prime has the choice of doing 16k damage/sec to a single enemy, or it can do 8k to one enemy and then 8k to another within a second. It's much more flexible at handling crowds. The Vectis, if it does 16k DPS, will only be able to deal that DPS to one enemy at a time. This in turn makes it less efficient than the BoltorP at killing, because in the time Vectis can take down one enemy, BoltorP can likely take down 2 or 3.

 

Pretty much why snipers need the innate-punchthrough. All other snipers have it, only Vectis does not which is weird and hence why the buff I am suggesting...would actually just bring it on par with the others.

 

 

Paris prime has 45% crit chance and 5m of innate penetration.  

 

Vectis would do more damage to less enemies, Bows do slightly less damage but have over double the penetration and (realistically) the ability to red-crit.  

 

I don't think its 5m, it actually seems like less, but the ragdolling is what results in massive crowd-control.

 

Hence why I am suggesting only a 35% crit rate and 2m innate-punchthrough. It would bring it nicely on par with bows rather than having snipers in some ditch =P

[CyklonDX]

My few points...

1) Rework of Punch-through

- Punch-through currently is simply penetration without any effects of projectile passing through objects.

When projectile hits object - it should refract by index of power == more power == less refraction.

- Bows currently are working fine to a point but they ought to get nerfed punch power. As after 1st target gets penetrated it should loose a lot penetration power still we consider tenno to be much stronger than normal human and his bow shoots projectiles with bigger strength. Thus 2 kills should be enough other enemies behind can be knocked down by corpses flying etc... (you could add 3rd enemy.)

2) Snipers - Fixing them all...

- Lanka should be a projectile sniper (Rail-Gun), which deal magnetic and puncture dmg.

Should deal puncture dmg and penetrate up to 3 targets easily. (No critic, except on head 2x)

- Vectis should be Beretta .50 it should have penetration of up to 2 targets and slight dmg to 3rd if reached.

A lot of Critical DMG should be at least 10x (maxed)

- Vulkar should be standard low caliber sniper rifle.

A lot of Critical DMG at least 15x (maxed)

Low dmg as its using normal caliber bullets like braton.

Small penetration - shouldn't be able to penetrate 2 targets at least 1 and slight penetration with big refraction index on it.

----

Refraction index should be used on all projectile weapons.

[Semshol]

-snip-

 

Thanks for supporting, but those multipliers are game breaking if implemented ^^;

 

A 6.6x crit multiplier is enough to one-shot level 80's which really shouldn't be the aim of the game x'D. Thus the current 4.4x on Vectis is more than fine. What it needs would be either the innate punch-through or the crit. buff, because the feature that is not buffed can be mod-fixed which, imo, is alright.

 

If the Vulkar was buffed to 15x (maxed after using vital sense etc.) even with low damage of say 40. Once you slap all the mods on there, you would basically be critting harder than a Soma and with a small calibre, they can fix it using the mods like Metal Auger and Shred. So it would amount to more punch-through with insane crit. damage. Again, this would be an over-buff and it is not the idea to really take anything away from current people.

 

Adding new mechanics like refraction is also beyond the scope of this thread as I cannot effectively test how it would affect play-style. So I would like to stick to the original buffs suggested.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Semshol

[CyklonDX]

~

Well that might be case but if you slow down their fire rate to ground it'll fix it again; as it won't be as good in usage except for sniping :) as their purpose was intended.

[Semshol]

Well that might be case but if you slow down their fire rate to ground it'll fix it again; as it won't be as good in usage except for sniping :) as their purpose was intended.

 

slowing their fire rate to ground doesn't make the damage any less OP x'D and it would suit a fast-paced game like Warframe even less.

 

The idea is not to create a niche for sniping which already has no place in a fast-paced action shooter. The idea is rather to bring snipers on par as viable weapons capable of playing through the game in a style that is not worse than their bow counter-parts.

[CyklonDX]

slowing their fire rate to ground doesn't make the damage any less OP x'D and it would suit a fast-paced game like Warframe even less.

 

The idea is not to create a niche for sniping which already has no place in a fast-paced action shooter. The idea is rather to bring snipers on par as viable weapons capable of playing through the game in a style that is not worse than their bow counter-parts.

Well I think thats wrong, there are plenty of maps that allow for sniper position; they are just not used.

There should be con to awesome dmg; not the ability to spam awesome dmg without any cons... Currently only 1 real sniper is ogris...

[Semshol]

Well I think thats wrong, there are plenty of maps that allow for sniper position; they are just not used.

There should be con to awesome dmg; not the ability to spam awesome dmg without any cons... Currently only 1 real sniper is ogris...

 

Ogris wrecks crowds though x'D

 

<3 that thing.

 

Anyway, there are maps that allow for it, but I test everything based on end-game viability, because while it is nice to goof off and have fun. Every update, with new prime stuff means it's trotting back to the void for us =P

 

So yeah that's kind of where I'm placing my balancing.

 

Of course the pro of awesome damage would only happen if those multipliers get implemented and I doubt they will be. Our aim is mostly to get more consistent damage rather than to have high-damage...but a gamble every time you pull the trigger.

[CyklonDX]

~

Then sniper weapons are not snipers anymore; but mere excuses of snipers. Snipers in real world are tactical support. Yes they do not have place in all kinds of missions and same goes for ogris (but motivation here is different). So in end-game snipers would be very useful for extra strong enemies (eximus) they'll be able to support team and wait for another strong enemy. They won't just random shoot targets they'll should wait for next strong one... and don't forget they have 2ndary arm and melee if enemy bites the &amp;#&#33;.

[Semshol]

Then sniper weapons are not snipers anymore; but mere excuses of snipers. Snipers in real world are tactical support. Yes they do not have place in all kinds of missions and same goes for ogris (but motivation here is different). So in end-game snipers would be very useful for extra strong enemies (eximus) they'll be able to support team and wait for another strong enemy. They won't just random shoot targets they'll should wait for next strong one... and don't forget they have 2ndary arm and melee if enemy bites the @$$.

 

I understand that playstyle and if the snipers were geared up exactly for that purpose, I wouldn't mind. Thing is, they don't quite seem to be made for that and I am therefore working with what they are in the game.

 

However based on current enemy stats the enemy would have to be 70+ before assault rifles and the rest become useless, therefore snipers would have even less of a place since most people don't wait for that.

 

Sniper should be somewhat enjoyable even when enemies aren't overpowering the team and that is why I am trying to gear them more for main-stream combat.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Semshol

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

Meanwhile... im doing 100k yellow crits without any dmg buff abilities from frames against lvl37 corrupted heavy gunner's when headshotting.... you were saying? But in all honesty, innate punch-through should be on all snipers, but that just mine thoughts about this...

[Semshol]

Meanwhile... im doing 100k yellow crits without any dmg buff abilities from frames against lvl37 corrupted heavy gunner's when headshotting.... you were saying? But in all honesty, innate punch-through should be on all snipers, but that just mine thoughts about this...

 

Screenshot proof of zee 100k please. 

 

Btw level 37 can be killed by anything. The bench-mark I was using was a level 50 (if you read the whole thread).

 

Innate-punchthrough SHOULD be a thing, then we can mod the crit rate and it won't matter. Either buff is okay, the Vectis is just gimped compared to other snipers and really they should be fair within their own class before we even talk about moving on to class to class comparisons.

[Semshol]

bump, to keep it alive.

[Quizel]

Vectis is hitscan and has higher effective RoF ->This makes the Vectis far more noob friendly and doesn't punish players as severely when you miss compared to Dread/Paris. Leading targets afar with bows is extremely difficult when the target is moving horizontally and across different elevations but it isn't nearly as bad with hitscan.

 

Not a strong statement bellow but something to think about:

Punch through looses combat value the closer the heavy gunner gets if you're aiming for head shots. There's a subtle point here about the fact it's often difficult to land a far shot with the bow and when the target does get close punch through matters less if aiming for the head. It's great against swarms of other targets that aren't so tall. Punch through makes up for the extra slow effective RoF of bows.

 

Now if crit was actually boosted to 35% for this Vectis model along with punch through, I'd only be fair to have the base damage massively reduced by like 40% at a minimum (40% nerf would more closely match a bows paper dps). Hitscan weapons shouldn't out perform projectile weapons on paper. It's only acceptable right now because of the inconsistency. The hard part is balancing around the RoF which some players claim does next to nothing. I for one say it helps a ton if you miss a shot and for the extremely good players turns them into gods.

 

The changes you suggested would make for an excellent prime/upgraded version as long as the base dmg was nerf'ed ~25-30%. Overall dps wouldn't change much from the current Vectis but you'd get that more consistent damage/shot along with punch through. Along with hitscan and primed chamber, this would be the best weapon in the game by a long shot. Coupled with Brakk or Pyrana like weapon, you'd be well equipped for most situations.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Quizel

[Troll_Logic]

I hate every sniper rifle.  Every single one.

 

On a related note, I love every bow.

[Semshol]

Vectis is hitscan and has higher effective RoF ->This makes the Vectis far more noob friendly and doesn't punish players as severely when you miss compared to Dread/Paris. Leading targets afar with bows is extremely difficult when the target is moving horizontally and across different elevations but it isn't nearly as bad with hitscan.

 

Not a strong statement bellow but something to think about:

Punch through looses combat value the closer the heavy gunner gets if you're aiming for head shots. There's a subtle point here about the fact it's often difficult to land a far shot with the bow and when the target does get close punch through matters less if aiming for the head. It's great against swarms of other targets that aren't so tall. Punch through makes up for the extra slow effective RoF of bows.

 

Now if crit was actually boosted to 35% for this Vectis model along with punch through, I'd only be fair to have the base damage massively reduced by like 40% at a minimum (40% nerf would more closely match a bows paper dps). Hitscan weapons shouldn't out perform projectile weapons on paper. It's only acceptable right now because of the inconsistency. The hard part is balancing around the RoF which some players claim does next to nothing. I for one say it helps a ton if you miss a shot and for the extremely good players turns them into gods.

 

The changes you suggested would make for an excellent prime/upgraded version as long as the base dmg was nerf'ed ~25-30%. Overall dps wouldn't change much from the current Vectis but you'd get that more consistent damage/shot along with punch through. Along with hitscan and primed chamber, this would be the best weapon in the game by a long shot. Coupled with Brakk or Pyrana like weapon, you'd be well equipped for most situations.

 

Well having started using the Vectis again for PvP. I can say, bows are still out-classing snipers in PvP. The only time they do not is in PvP.

 

With your point that hit-scan shouldn't outperform projectile. Why? Why should it not? Is there a solid reason for this? Ease of aiming? Some people actually have a tough time aiming the hit-scan, it is most evidenced in PvP where you can see how people aim their weapons...they fail sadly. The Vectis punishes people MORE than the bows for missing by the way. If you miss with the hit-scan, that's it. Miss with a projectile weapon, it may still hit something if you were aiming at a crowd. Your Vectis bullet on the other hand just puts a hole in the ground. It is actually MORE punishing for newbies, just so you know. (that's actually why there is a Mk-1 Paris, not a Mk-1 Vectis)

 

The bows paper dps is wrong by the way. The actual DPS is much much much higher assuming the same skill level for a sniper and a bow user, both of whom are not missing shots. When enemies are swarming the pod, even the punch-through will do jack-all, but the bows ragdolling makes it effective up close and at a distance.

 

Hence the Vectis does not need a base damage nerf, it needs a consistency BUFF, a consistency that bows already exhibit making them much more viable than snipers. The play-range of the game also favours bows over snipers as the only time you need to kill something 60m away is again...in PvP

 

Hence I would like to see the Vectis and other snipers rebalanced to PvE standards where the short-range demands that they at least have some minor crowd control. i.e. innate punch-through.

 

The crit chance can then be manually mod fixed

 

Or if they buff the crit chance, the punch-through can be manually mod-fixed. Either way, one of the buffs needs to happen for the snipers to be as viable as bows.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Semshol

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

bump, to keep it alive.

I have honestly never seen such devotion to a thread for a simple stat boost. Good for you. :D Snipers need to be completely torn apart and have their mechanics rebuilt from the ground up, if they are to have any purpose in this game beyond aesthetics. What good is a hitscan bow with slightly inferior or similar stats when there's already bows that people have forma'd and potatoed? People need a reason to play snipers besides pure numbers. First of all, snipers need to reward accuracy with consistency. I suggest that this be accomplished by giving +100% critical chance on head shots. Second, snipers need to reward hanging back away from enemies. Negative damage fall-off accomplishes this perfectly, by giving more damage the further away your target is. Third, snipers need to still have a way to deal with multiple enemies, obviously punch through is part of the solution. 100% status chance on head shots is another possibility. We could also give snipers a better version of Thunderbolt that always explodes on head shots, and scales off of the sniper's damage.

You don't agree with my ideas, I don't agree with yours.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Tehnoobshow

[Quizel]

 

-snip-

Plz don't argue your pvp experience to the pve environment. Tenno have acceleration and deceleration rules (momentum).  NPC enemies can turn on a dime and the movement isn't always fluid/predictable. Hitscan massively increases the likelihood of landing a shot at any real distance. If you can manage to perform that task, you deserve the higher consistent damage of the bow. 

 

"The bows paper dps is wrong btw?" 

 

Not sure what kind of paper you use but my spreadsheet is accurate to within 1-2 damage against non-armored targets (armored targets perform rounding in steps in an order that I'm not aware of which could take days to test. Regardless, it's within 1% error on fully mod'ed weapons. proc dmg tic estimates aren't as thoroughly tested but often also close approximations-1%-5% accuracy). From there it's a matter of figuring out the effective rate of fire. Not rocket science.

 

Do you realize the the change you're suggesting will give an estimated damage per shot roughly identical to the bow only with 65% higher effective rate of fire and a even MORE consistent dps? If the streaky damage of the weapons is removed ( the proc and red crits chance),  the vectis would be ~50% higher estimated dmg per shot and still have 65% higher eRoF. Exactly how much overkill do you want?  

 

To be honest, it sounds more reasonable that bows need to be nerf'ed rather than Vectis to be buffed. Snipers shouldn't become a jack of all trades.  By the very nature it should be cumbersome at close range combat. You have a secondary and melee weapon for a reason, use it to complement your sniper and take out the crowds. If that's not enough, shift the role of taking out the lower lifeforms to another squad mate.

 

I'll meet you half way and agree it wouldn't be the worst thing for the game to have consistent predictable damage for the Vectis and snipers alike (kind of makes for stale game play but w/e) as long as the base dmg or crit multiplier gets nerfed. Since punch through is situational at best when aiming for the head of heavy gunners, I'll even toss that in as well. Any more discussion at this point would just be circular and pointless. Happy?

 

1)First of all, snipers need to reward accuracy with consistency. I suggest that this be accomplished by giving +100% critical chance on head shots.

 

2)Second, snipers need to reward hanging back away from enemies. Negative damage fall-off accomplishes this perfectly, by giving more damage the further away your target is.

 

3)Third, snipers need to still have a way to deal with multiple enemies, obviously punch through is part of the solution. 100% status chance on head shots is another possibility. We could also give snipers a better version of Thunderbolt that always explodes on head shots, and scales off of the sniper's damage.

You don't agree with my ideas, I don't agree with yours.

1) Not completely against this thought process but it'd certainly provoke some odd modd'ing options (like not using point strike).  Maybe the fix would be to give head shots a flat/fixed 25% crit chance bonus or treat head shots as if the weapon had an additional 50-100% crit chance mod equipped.

 

2) I'd completely support this as it is fitting for the sniper role. Increases dmg with increased skill. However, given the current balance of snipers, the max buff for max range shouldn't be too massive.

 

3) I'd be against this, especially if the above got implemented. Snipers would hit so godly hard you could afford to mod some punch through or some sort of aoe proc build. Giving it punch through like other weapons isn't too massive.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Quizel

[StickyBaseline]

2m inate punchthrough?????

 

35% base?

 

OP.

 

you want the vectis to become a .50 cal weapon?

 

isn't it already strong alone?

 

 

Maybe a small buff with the rest of the snipers sure. BUT NOT MUCH it already hits hard

Yes, this should be a 50cal bolt action sniper rifle as intended. 10k damage is not much at all, there are regular RIFLES that does more damage per shot then ALL snipers, and those rifles are even considered bad! innate punchthrough is extremely necessary for snipers to become somewhat viable, because then we could fit in another utility/damage mod.