Update Aspects Of The Game Design To Modern Standards

[auxy]

So, this thread has seen a lot of replies and I felt it necessary to update this first post with some much-needed explanation and summarization! Thanks once more to everyone that has replied, even the trolls, because any attention is good attention.

 

Here are my actual suggestions from below, summarized in "tl;dr" format for those who can't be bothered to read the thread. I've highlighted what I personally think are the best options in each category; obviously your mileage may vary. 

 

Some of these are borrowed whole cloth from other games and from other posters (Thanks to those who contributed, including DalaiLama, Ghobe, Madotsuki, rhoenix, Mak_Gohae, Oz270, krisp, Venarge, MJ12, Calayne, and my friends, as well as everyone else who posted and who will post.) I'm really excited for the future of WARFRAME, and I really hope the developers take some of these ideas into consideration.

 

1) To resolve the problems with random ammo pickups, implement some or all of the following:

   a) Make certain things 100% ammo drop (e.g. supply containers)

   b) Make ammo pickups worth 1-2 magazines' worth of ammunition (or four shots, whichever is more)

   c) Increase frequency with which enemies drop ammo

   d) Add a module which reduces ammo consumption (chance to not consume ammo)

 

2) To resolve separate ammo pickups, implement some or all of the following:

   a) Consolidate all ammo pickups into one

   b) Consolidate primary ammo pickups and make secondary unlimited

   c) Consolidate primary ammo pickups only

   d) Obviate the concept of maximum carried ammo entirely

 

3) To resolve the issue where enemy count has nothing to do with ammo count: (some or all)

   a) Increase frequency with which enemies drop ammo

   b) Add ammo-refilling stations to heavy-combat objectives (defend, bosses)

   c) Award consumable ammo boxes more frequently

 

4) To resolve the issues with the energy mechanic: (some or all)

   a) Completely remove the energy mechanic; replace with flat cooldowns

   b) Completely remove the energy mechanic; replace with dynamic cooldowns (or a mixture)

   c) Completely remove the energy mechanic; replace with shield consumption

   d) Make energy recharge at n%/sec rate

   e) Make energy return by defeating enemies, or a unique condition each frame

   f) Tweak power energy costs along with option d and/or e

 

5) To incentivize exploration and reduce the incidence of 'rush' gameplay

   a) Add module drop chance to lockers

   b) Increase credit drops from lockers

   c) Increase enemy spawn frequency outside the "main" mission area

   d) Add more and semi-randomized "secret" areas

   e) Add specific, nonrandom uncommon or rare material drops to lockers off the path

   f) Add mini-bosses

 

6) This is really a "solution looking for a problem", so it speaks for itself. (╹◡╹)

 

7) This is more directly a problem that needs fixing than something suboptimal.

The edited original post starts below:

_______
Right now, WARFRAME is a pretty cool game, with a lot of really fresh, fantastic ideas, but DigitalExtremes' history shows through in the game in a few antiquated design decisions. I'll elaborate on them individually below, but here's a guideline:

1) random ammo pickups make it easy to run out
2) separate ammo pickups are pointless
3) frequency of ammo pickups largely unrelated to enemy count
4) energy mechanic needs revision or complete elision
5) no real rewards for exploration leading to rush gameplay
6) frames need specific slots for power mods
7) unreliable melee attacks and dodgy player physics

NOTE: These are problems I don't see as "beta-isms"; the game obviously has many other problems right now, but I expect most of them will be fixed before release. I hope these problems get addressed as well, but since they are more design-related than technical, I am afraid they will be overlooked.

1) One of the major problems with the game is the randomness of ammo pickups, making it very easy to run out of ammo.

Solution: make secondary weapons have unlimited ammo.

I just had to melee Jackal to death solo -- no mean feat, under-leveled and using a low-level FURAX -- because I basically had no other option. My primary is a PARIS and sniper ammo doesn't drop during that fight, and while pistol ammo does drop, it takes 1.5 magazines from my AFURIS to "break" one of his legs. I had to run around hiding until I got enough ammo to do that, and then melee his face. This left me vulnerable to the mines laying about the arena, his instant-kill sticky grenade attacks, and his stomp attack.

Now, this is only one example and you could solve that particular problem by adding sniper ammo pickups to that fight. However, this problem permeates the game; I ran out of ammo fighting General Vor for the first time, and ended up having to exit and restart the mission because I couldn't melee him at all. AFURIS is rendered almost useless -- in general -- by the extremely ammo-hungry nature of the weapon, and the middling DPS does not make up for it.

There's only one simple answer to this problem that you can give. "You're a bad shot" -- no I'm not. "The weapons need balancing" -- not really; this would go a long way toward that. My solution is very easy: make secondary weapons have unlimited ammunition. Still require reloading, still require magazines, simply remove pistol ammo pickups from the game and make secondary ammo unlimited.

This fixes a lot of problems with the game, and it also helps your weapon balance, where heavy pistols like LEX, BRONCO, and KRAKEN are "just better" than the lighter pistols like FURIS and VIPER. They carry overall a significantly greater amount of damage than the lighter pistols, and given the value the game places on precision, their higher accuracy makes headshots much easier.

Other, highly-regarded games have taken the same route with sidearms or secondary weapons, notably Left 4 Dead, which has similar four-player-coop gameplay.

2) Another place WARFRAME is showing its designers' age is in the primary ammo pickups. Why are there separate ammo pickups for the various primary weapons? Why is there not simply an "ammo" pickup? These should be consolidated into one pickup.

I've talked about this a lot with other players. You can't carry more than one type of primary weapon, so you only ever need one type of primary ammo. Nothing is more infuriating than finding a thousand shotgun and sniper ammo packs when you really need a rifle ammo. The only purpose limited ammo serves in the game is to simply require some skill on the part of the player so you do actually have to aim a bit. However, I don't think having players run out and then be out for most of a mission was intended.

Most games have enemies drop ammo, and rarely, enemies will drop ammo in WARFRAME, too. However, the ammo drop rate is too low, and the random drop rate means you may not get any ammo for your weapon. Loot chests, such as lockers, may sometimes have ammo, but frequently don't, or only have one type.

In other shooter games, this isn't really a problem, because you can either
A) just pick up another weapon (Halo, Gears of War, Killzone)
B) return to a central place to refill your ammo (Borderlands, Blacklight: Retribution)
or C) carry so much ammo for so many weapons it's irrelevant (Serious Sam, Quake, Unreal).
However, none of these are the case in WARFRAME, so applying those design principles to this game is foolish.

The solution to this problem is obvious: consolidate the ammo pickups into a single "ammo" pickup equal to one magazine for your primary weapon. Many games have taken this route; see Mass Effect's "thermal clips". This obviates the issue of getting lots of ammo you can't use, and it also simplifies something that never needed to be complex. It's less realistic, but WARFRAME has nothing in common with reality anyway.

3) I touched on this earlier, but it's worth mentioning again -- in most games, the ammo a player has available generally increases directly proportional to the number of enemies they fight, because ammo comes directly from looting the enemies.

In WARFRAME, players are reliant entirely on random ammo pickups to feed their thirsty guns. This is a real problem sometimes, and there's no justification for having it work the way it does. This is not a survival horror game.

Consolidating the ammo types will go a long way toward resolving this problem, but enemies should really drop ammo more frequently.

4) The idea of action games where the player has access to an array of powers is not really a new concept. Traditionally, these powers have drawn from some kind of resource, usually "mana" or "energy" or similar. WARFRAME is no different; however, in recent years, games of this sort have begun to abandon the resource in favor of a pure cooldown-based system. In this context, WARFRAME, which requires you to pick up randomly-dropped energy orbs to replenish your "mana", feels hopelessly dated.

Many of the powers in WARFRAME are extremely powerful. MAG's "Crush" is the perfect example of a power that can be abused and exploited to great benefit. Allowing truly unlimited usage of these powers would be folly, so cooldowns are necessary.

Currently, the game has no cooldowns, and obviously, players like to use their powers, so the developers have seen fit to make energy orbs one of the most common drops. As a result, despite having only 145 max energy, I can use "Crush" -- which requires 100 energy -- and often be refilled to full energy by picking up the orbs dropped the enemies I just killed!

So, as we can see, the energy system is not doing its job of limiting the abuse of powerful powers. However, it does limit the amount of use I get out of my lesser powers. "Pull", which is a very useful single-target knockdown, costs 25 energy. This makes me reluctant to use it, as using it just twice renders me unable to use "Crush" without finding an energy orb.

This is more or less the opposite of the way this system should work. Powers either need to be on a straight cooldown system, or energy needs to recharge at a medium pace. The latter is more of a stopgap solution; the preferable solution would be a pure cooldown-based system, but that will require considerable development time and balancing work.

5) WARFRAME missions take place on maps that are procedurally generated. This means that sometimes, the maps are truly gargantuan, and frequently, a large portion of the map is unrelated to the mission at hand. However, it is still populated with loot and, sometimes, enemies.

There is currently almost no incentive to explore these extra areas. The "loot" in question is generally an energy or health orb, some ammo, or, rarely, a handful of credits or an affinity orb. With the exception of the last category (credits or affinity), none of this is permanent, and the most valuable type of loot -- artifact modules -- can't be found from "chests", so there's really no incentive to explore these back passages unless you're out of ammo, and revising the ammo system as I mentioned will make that even less likely.

The solution to this problem is to add a chance for module drops to *lockers* only. Lockers are somewhat rarer than storage containers (which should be a 100% drop for ammo.) This will give some value to exploration and it will help differentiate the two types of containers.

6) Currently, the frames' four powers are hard-coded to the 1-4 keys. You can rebind the inputs, but for example, regardless of anything else, while playing as MAG, the "first power" input will always be Pull. This is suboptimal, as it limits the developers from a potentially very cool option.

In many recent games, your character may have powers specific to their class/race/design/etc, and then they may also have access to a general set of powers. This is not unlike Dungeons & Dragon's "class features" versus "feats", but you can see it in many electronic games, such as Wizardry Online and Champions Online.

WARFRAME has no such "general powers" -- yet -- and if such a system were implemented, it would likely be awkward to control, since the 1-4 buttons are exclusively relegated to your frames' unique powers regardless of whether or not you have those powers equipped. I generally don't bring my "Shield Polarize" or "Bullet Attractor" abilities on Mag, so "second power" and "third power" are wasted inputs.

An easy solution to this problem would be to set apart those four slots -- still with their polarity and all -- as "power slots", and simply key them to 1-4. This would let players reassign the order of their powers as well, which is a nice quality-of-life improvement. Additionally, if those "generic" powers ever do get implemented ("dash", "grenade", "spin attack", and excalibur's "super jump" are good candidates for genericization), it would make it very easy to use them.

This is a big change, but I think it is necessary for future development of the game. Call it "forward-looking".

7) This last one I debated including in this list because it may very well be a "beta-ism", but I wanted to make sure it's addressed. The player physics in this game, especially when using the advanced (parkour) movement, are sometimes very questionable.

In general the game has a somewhat poor, "floaty", and inconsistent feel to the movement. Players slide around a bit, especially when changing direction, and there's occasionally a real sense of disconnection when moving that hurts immersion somewhat. Some of this is unavoidable due to lag, but most if it has nothing to do with the network.

Despite these problems, the basic movements of running, jumping, and sliding work well enough. (I personally wish there was a "walk" function, but I also long for emotes, and I doubt I will get either.)

However, when the player tries to fight in melee or attempts to use the more advanced movement options, things become a little less reliable. Melee attacks are very easy to completely miss with (elite soldiers punching a meter to the right of their target?) and sometimes it is very difficult to get the parkour system to perform the action you want, taking many tries and finally working despite using the same input.

(On a related note, the "Hold jump to wallrun" option does not save when unchecked in the options. On next login it will be re-checked.)

Unfortunately, unlike the other complaints, I don't have a complete solution for this. Other games add real weight and feeling to the players' movements by including specialized animations for turning at speed, and by giving the player significant friction with the world. WARFRAME seems to simulate this, by having an acceleration delay before the player can begin moving at speed, but it defintely feels phoned-in compared to games with more grounded movement physics.

For the melee targeting problems, there is a simple solution, though -- a very subtle highlighting system (look to Minecraft's block highlight for a cue; Champions Online also does this well) added as part of a sort of "soft-lock" of the type you see in games like Devil May Cry and Kingdoms of Amalur. In those games, you CAN hard-lock onto a target, but you don't have to; melee attacks will automatically zero in on the nearest target in front of the player. This would make fighting in melee not quite so cumbersome and difficult; there is a reason players overwhelmingly prefer the heavy melee weapons. :)

_______

WHEW! That ended up being a lot longer than I meant it to. I've been thinking on this for a few weeks now, and I hope what I meant to say comes across. In any case, WARFRAME is a lot of fun, but thanks to these problems I'm not really willing to spend any money on it yet.

On a related note to that, the game's egregiously and shamelessly "pay2win" nature is worse than that of most other games of the type, and it may be in your best interest to tone that down a bit (by increasing the platinum-to-real-money ratio, or by reducing the credit costs for items).

Anyway, this just the noise of one game designer giving the advice of youth to another design team. Experience is grand, but it can make one fall into old ways of doing things for no good reason. I hope this message makes its way to some actual game design heads, rather than merely support staff, but regardless, I feel better having put it into words. Thanks for the game and your consideration.

Edited April 19, 2013 by auxy

[DalaiLlama]

Wow, I get your references and your points.  While there may be some balancing issues with infinite pistol ammunition, for example, I'm reading some fresh ideas.  Hope the devs see this over the standard, 3 sentence topics.

[auxy]

Wow, I get your references and your points.  While there may be some balancing issues with infinite pistol ammunition, for example, I'm reading some fresh ideas.  Hope the devs see this over the standard, 3 sentence topics.

 

Thanks a lot for your reply! I hope so too. WARFRAME is such a cool game with so much potential; with just a little work it could be amazing.

[Calayne]

Wow. You really are a game designer? No offense meant, of course, but that is seriously cool. 

 

I think most of your points are amazing points: The ammo thing in particular has got me steaming more times than one thanks to the Braton. But to be fair, I think the developers have the intention of forcing players to rely on all their weapons, and melee, in particular as an infinite resource of awesome, while conserving ammo for both primary and secondary to when they're truly needed. And I still feel like I always have enough if I balanced their use enough.

I agree to the primary ammo thing: The drops should be of only one kind, and it doesn't even have to drop that often. But, I think it'd be wiser to scale ammo drops to per-clip quantities, rather than absolute quantities. Two clips per ammo drop would be amazing, for example. However, I do think that making the sidearm unlimited would be disagreeable to some point: R6V2 had unlimited side-arm ammo, and that game was realistic(ish). But those guns were ineffective a majority of the time to heavy armor, and closing distance to melee distance is quite fatal; Unlike warframe, where even without auto-aim, there is some serious damage to be had in melee, were you familiar enough to your commands.

 

But basically, I agree with points every point except the side-arm one, and rather disagree with the statement that it's "pay2win". I think it's lovely how much freedom we're given, and a good team will work wonders. But for point 6, I do recall, though, that they do plan to add more powers, so likely the hot-keys for powers will be revamped.

 

Oh, but for the love of God, allow the option to turn off auto-aim, even for soft-locks: Kingdoms of Amalur drove me mad with that one.

 

Edit: Oops! Forgot to add: As for boss fights, ammo depots all over the arena would work wonders to the gameplay, I think. Fosters team work too, as it would suck to run to an ammo drop to be turned into meat gibblets when your team could have covered you. Full ammo refills, forever! Just for boss fights! Or it could be they're trying to get you to buy ammo from the market. I think it's fair game, to an extent, if they think so: After all, they're purchasable by credits and given as daily rewards!

Edited April 18, 2013 by Calayne

[auxy]

I agree to the primary ammo thing: The drops should be of only one kind, and it doesn't even have to drop that often. But, I think it'd be wiser to scale ammo drops to per-clip quantities, rather than absolute quantities. Two clips per ammo drop would be amazing, for example.

I did suggest this, although I suggested one magazine per ammo drop (with more drops.) It comes out about the same; I'm glad we agree! (╹◡╹)

However, I do think that making the sidearm unlimited would be disagreeable to some point: R6V2 had unlimited side-arm ammo, and that game was realistic(ish). But those guns were ineffective a majority of the time to heavy armor, and closing distance to melee distance is quite fatal; Unlike Warframe, where even without auto-aim, there is some serious damage to be had in melee, were you familiar enough to your commands.

Many of the sidearms in this game have serious limitations, either with magazine size or accuracy at range. I don't think unlimited sidearm ammo would be overpowered, but it may require some slight balance adjustments. It's a big change, and I don't suggest it lightly.

Oh, but for the love of God, allow the option to turn off auto-aim, even for soft-locks: Kingdoms of Amalur drove me mad with that one.

Haha, Amalur's implementation isn't the best; perhaps I should have used something else for my example. Still, a soft-lock is better than none at all, wouldn't you say? Edited April 18, 2013 by auxy

[Ghobe]

/fingercrack

Alright mr oh so pro game designer. Let's see what I can poke...

 

Issues #1,2, and 3 I believe come down to the same thing...you're focusing too much on gun tenno and not enough on sword tenno, as well as ignoring the fact that ammo boxes exist. Though I'm with you there in the frustration that seeing the other ammo types even drop when I'm looking for my primary. I wouldn't mind if I could only see my own ammo types. However, I'm pretty blatantly against giving secondaries unlimited ammo. Thinking about your ammo is something that is a serious part of the game; they even have a series of mods and artifacts tailored just to this "issue". Jackal not dropping sniper ammo is more of a bug than a design flaw. Do I think it's in a perfect place right now though? No. I feel a couple more mods need introduced, namely a mod that specifically increases the droprate for ____ ammo from enemies you kill and a mod to increase the amount of ammo you get from ammo drops.

 

Specifically to the unlimited side arm ammo and left 4 dead thing...I don't know about you, but the only time I ever used my primary in that game was for tanks and witches. Thanks to the unlimited ammo situation, it was just too effective. Fun facts: L4D2 Most used tier 1: pistol(58% of kills), most used tier 2: magnum(40% of kills). (Un)Fortunately I didn't discover how effective it was until I had already invested a lot of time. I say that because I very quickly lost interest after that. If it had kept going that Magnum probably would have eventually reached ballpark of 95%. And the magnum, is the equivalent of a Lex here.

 

Issue #4 is something that used to exist in the game. However, it was decided against and mods were put into the game to allow you to tap more into your abilities if you so choose(see: Flow, Continuity, Reach, and Streamline).

 

Issue #5 I'm with you there. There isn't much of a reward outside of the potential(which is rather low) to get resources from containers.

 

Issue #6 this came up in the last livestream, they are working on something for the future in regards to additional powers. However, that's about all they said on the subject.

 

Issue #7 I'll agree on the movement, however, I will heavily disagree with the melee. Unlike in most games, melee can actually be aimed to deal dramatically more damage. I have a feeling this will play a key role later on, it already kind of does if you know what you're doing.

 

Also...

but thanks to these problems I'm not really willing to spend any money on it yet.

 

I'm so confused... xP

[auxy]

Issues #1,2, and 3 I believe come down to the same thing...you're focusing too much on gun tenno and not enough on sword tenno, as well as ignoring the fact that ammo boxes exist.

Thanks for replying! I see where it would be easy to assume I focus on my guns, but I do use my melee weapons quite a lot. The fact is that some weapons are just not very ammo-efficient, and sniper ammo is pretty uncommon sometimes. It's just too random.As far as the ammo boxes go ... trumpeting a pay2win option as a solution to a game design problem is just disgusting.

Do I think it's in a perfect place right now though? No. I feel a couple more mods need introduced, namely a mod that specifically increases the droprate for ____ ammo from enemies you kill and a mod to increase the amount of ammo you get from ammo drops.

Adding a mod to deal with what is a more general design flaw seems a bit of a kludge to me; besides, you need those mod slots to make your weapons more potent ... so you have to use less ammo.

Specifically to the unlimited side arm ammo and left 4 dead thing...I don't know about you, but the only time I ever used my primary in that game was for tanks and witches. Thanks to the unlimited ammo situation, it was just too effective.

I used my primary weapons a fair bit in that game. On higher difficulty levels, you simply have to; large hordes of the infected and some of the special infected are just too tough to deal with otherwise.Even though unlimited secondary ammo would allow you to blow through whole missions with your AKLATO, it's still less effective than a good primary, and anyway, what's the fun in that? I don't really see where it's a downside.

Issue #4 is something that used to exist in the game. However, it was decided against and mods were put into the game to allow you to tap more into your abilities if you so choose(see: Flow, Continuity, Reach, and Streamline).

Again, I don't really see mods as a good solution to a design problem. Asking players to fix your outdated design with their precious mod slots isn't a good idea.If I were of the sort who wanted to use my powers a lot, you're saying that I have to give up health/shield/armor or movement speed to get there? I'm sorry, no; that's poor optimization and just not very fun. After all, the goal is to have fun, isn't it?

Issue #7 I'll agree on the movement, however, I will heavily disagree with the melee. Unlike in most games, melee can actually be aimed to deal dramatically more damage. I have a feeling this will play a key role later on, it already kind of does if you know what you're doing.

Well, as a previous poster said, you absolutely should be able to disable it.

I'm so confused... xP

I did say "really". ┐(´∀｀)┌ Edited April 18, 2013 by auxy

[DalaiLlama]

/fingercrack

Alright mr oh so pro game designer. Let's see what I can poke...

 

Issues #1,2, and 3 I believe come down to the same thing...you're focusing too much on gun tenno and not enough on sword tenno, as well as ignoring the fact that ammo boxes exist. Though I'm with you there in the frustration that seeing the other ammo types even drop when I'm looking for my primary. I wouldn't mind if I could only see my own ammo types. However, I'm pretty blatantly against giving secondaries unlimited ammo. Thinking about your ammo is something that is a serious part of the game; they even have a series of mods and artifacts tailored just to this "issue". Jackal not dropping sniper ammo is more of a bug than a design flaw. Do I think it's in a perfect place right now though? No. I feel a couple more mods need introduced, namely a mod that specifically increases the droprate for ____ ammo from enemies you kill and a mod to increase the amount of ammo you get from ammo drops.

 

Specifically to the unlimited side arm ammo and left 4 dead thing...I don't know about you, but the only time I ever used my primary in that game was for tanks and witches. Thanks to the unlimited ammo situation, it was just too effective. Fun facts: L4D2 Most used tier 1: pistol(58% of kills), most used tier 2: magnum(40% of kills). (Un)Fortunately I didn't discover how effective it was until I had already invested a lot of time. I say that because I very quickly lost interest after that. If it had kept going that Magnum probably would have eventually reached ballpark of 95%. And the magnum, is the equivalent of a Lex here.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about the first point.  Nowadays money is considerably harder to make, and at a thousand, ammo boxes are not to be taken lightly.  To me, these boxes are like spare fallbacks that players can resort to when fighting gets considerably intense; not simply when using a weapon actively in an ordinary mission.  I personally have to gauge my ammunition constantly depending on the weapon I'm using, because despite heavy modification on my braton vandal, active use still knocks down ammunition amazingly fast.  The only reason I have some ammunition left at the end of an ordinary mission is because I've been spamming my pistol.  An ammo box is not something players should rely on every mission.  Also, mods cannot increase the amount of ammunition dropped per mission.  To my knowledge, ammunition drops are data shared server-side, as is the reason why players are able to share the same ammunition pickup.  To cause more ammunition drops to occur for a single player would need the server to register each ammunition drop for that single player as opposed to sharing data amongst the entire group as it does now.  Not good for the server.  As for mods that increase the ammunition we pick up, that's already present in the form of the artifacts.  Increased pickup mods would seem kinda redundant to me.

 

Though I do agree on the infinite ammo prospect.  Infinite ammo for the secondary weapons as they work now would truly be quite overpowered.  My souped up lato vandal is so powerful that sometimes I just use it instead of my rifle near-completely; deals great damage, peppy rate of fire, fast reload, superb results.  While that thing has a lot of ammunition already, I'd think about my Afuris and my dual viper.  With infinite ammunition those things can continue to cut down trees.  As I said before, it is questionable, but a unique idea nonetheless.

 

Though a single universal ammunition pickup is interesting.

[auxy]

I'd think about my Afuris and my dual viper.  With infinite ammunition those things can continue to cut down trees.  As I said before, it is questionable, but a unique idea nonetheless.

I have not had the pleasure of using the dual vipers yet (based on the numbers, they seem simply superior to the AFURIS), but AFURIS seems more like a way to flatten light ammo on body armor than anything that's going to "cut down trees". Haha. (╹◡╹) Edited April 18, 2013 by auxy

[Ghobe]

I see where it would be easy to assume I focus on my guns, but I do use my melee weapons quite a lot. The fact is that some weapons are just not very ammo-efficient, and sniper ammo is pretty uncommon sometimes. It's just too random.

Though that's kind of by design. If everything was ammo efficient it will remove that niche.

 

 

 

As far as the ammo boxes go ... trumpeting a pay2win option as a solution to a game design problem is just disgusting.

 

 

Nowadays money is considerably harder to make, and at a thousand, ammo boxes are not to be taken lightly.

Ammo boxes are available for 1000 credits. Either both of you are still doing low level content and farming infinite respawners, miss a lot, or......refuse to mod your gear...something. An average high level run should net you 1300+ credits and upwards of 10 mods(which sell for 500 credits each) and if you're lucky, you'll get a blue print worth 2500 credits. Where is this money problem? How is this pay2win? Do you need a screenshot?

 

 

 

Adding a mod to deal with what is a more general design flaw seems a bit of a kludge to me; besides, you need those mod slots to make your weapons more potent ... so you have to use less ammo.

I don't really see it as a design flaw. I see it as an aspect of the game you can specialize in. Also, as it stands...it's pretty much impossible to have an argument over damage vs ammo when you have a mod capacity of 60 and the future of being able to change polarity slots with the coming prestige system. Your combined mods would require a cost of 120, good luck covering that. With every single mod available to a rifle completely maxed out, you're at 143. But you don't have enough mod slots to equip them all, after all there are only 10 slots, but there are 14 different mods, 9 of which are directly tied to damage/dps, fewer still for specialization on a per faction basis.

 

 

 

I used my primary weapons a fair bit in that game. On higher difficulty levels, you simply have to; large hordes of the infected and some of the special infected are just too tough to deal with otherwise.

Not if you had quick-twitch and high accuracy. The magnum made hordes a joke(piercing and auto one shot lol), as well as oneshot headshotting all SI excluding the charger(2 shots), tank and witch. You might say this says more about the magnum than about unlimited ammunition, but the pistol(s) weren't in a bad place either, you just had to aim at head level for the hordes. I can not begin to tell you how many times I 180'd and took out a smoker that grabbed me before I was disarmed.

 

 

 

Even though unlimited secondary ammo would allow you to blow through whole missions with your AKLATO, it's still less effective than a good primary, and anyway, what's the fun in that? I don't really see where it's a downside.

The problem is that it DOES lack a downside. Outside of the Lex, what pistol would be worth using outside of twin viper? None. Why would I ever even use a solo pistol instead of dual pistols? After all, ammo isn't a limitation anymore right? Doing this would require the complete reworking of just about every pistol that is in the game now, and everyone that is already past the design stage. And quite frankly, I don't like it.

 

 

 

Again, I don't really see mods as a good solution to a design problem. Asking players to fix your outdated design with their precious mod slots isn't a good idea.

It isn't asking players to fix it, it allows them to specialize. Do you want to specialize in your guns? Go for it. Do you want to specialize in your melee? Go for it. Do you want to specialize in your powers? Unacceptable. What?

 

 

 

If I were of the sort who wanted to use my powers a lot, you're saying that I have to give up health/shield/armor or movement speed to get there? I'm sorry, no; that's poor optimization and just not very fun. After all, the goal is to have fun, isn't it?

You'll have to forgive me, I come from the land of having specializations and not promoting &*$$genization.

 

EDIT: Yay censors! If it's not hetero then it's ___.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Ghobe

[Calayne]

I did suggest this, although I suggested one magazine per ammo drop (with more drops.) It comes out about the same; I'm glad we agree! (╹◡╹)

 

Many of the sidearms in this game have serious limitations, either with magazine size or accuracy at range. I don't think unlimited sidearm ammo would be overpowered, but it may require some slight balance adjustments. It's a big change, and I don't suggest it lightly.

 

Haha, Amalur's implementation isn't the best; perhaps I should have used something else for my example. Still, a soft-lock is better than none at all, wouldn't you say?

 

 

I'd like to comment on the power of my sidearm: The only thing holding back my Sicarus from completely replacing my primary is actually ammo per clip! That is to say, damage-wise, the side-arm is potentially more powerful than the primary! There's the occassional long-range shot or larger battles where I pull out my primary for larger fights, but most times, my secondary is just as good for close-contact! In general, though, I almost never run out of ammo, since I abuse my melee often.

 

Simply applying infinite ammo as a solution may actually lead people to disregard melee, or ammo conservation in general, I think. And as for ammo boxes, I think 1000 credits ain't much, to be honest: I blow tens of thousands on mod fusions, and hardly blink! But I think what the Dalai Lama had in mind was that, if I had to do it -every- darn mission, I'd never earn enough money to blow those tens of thousands on mods. So yes, to me, nigh-infinite ammo in boss fights are a big, fat yes.

 

Hmm, regarding the lock, I'd definitely say yes to people who'd like it! The attraction is immense to those who hate the hassle of manual aim, and I'd love for people to have the choice: Flailing around is hardly my idea of fun! But, as for myself, I much prefer manual aim. Call me old school, but Dark Souls prepped me up for this ^^

 

Aw, man! I'm waiting to get my Twin Vipers, still hunting for the materials. Looks sweet!

 

I have to say, though: I think WARFRAME has an idea for ammo along the lines of this: Just enough to keep it suspenseful, just enough to make us feel awesome, but just enough to make people take care of their ammo use, yet small enough so they sometimes run out of dakka and have to get out of their comfort zone. I think it's great! It's not -purely- survival horror, but I think it's survival enough. We're Space-Ninja-Warriors in hostile territory, we won't always get what we want and fight how we're most comfortable with. We're badass that way. Tenno fo' life, yo.

Speaking of running out of ammo, I'll paint ya'll a picture in a couple months. I got an idea for a comic.

[Madotsuki]

I agree with most of your points, particularly the floaty physics and frame power slotting. However, I don't think universal ammo and increased ammo drop rate should be implemented together. Right now the ammo drop rate is already decent. If all ammo drops became universal ammo, players would NEVER run out of ammunition. I would agree to a universal ammo over the current seperate ammo system, but ammo drop rate should be decreased in that situation. 

 

I agree fully on the whole "floaty physics" thing. It's for this reason i rarely ever use wallruns unless necessary to traverse an area. Also jumping can get extremely awkward due to minimal ability to control your movements mid-jump. Sometimes my character would auto-roll on landing and roll me into a bottomless pit. When i shoot in mid-air, my character automatically lunges forward. These are all REALLY annoying for me. I disagree on "soft locking" with melee though. It's not like Warframe has a lot of melee combos like Devil May Cry aside from spamming normal swings, single charge, jump ground slam and slide spin. Soft locking isn't all that necessary.

 

As for infinite pistol ammo, pure infinite ammo would be rather OP if used with weapons of rediculous fire rate like Twin Vipers or Afuris. You used Left 4 Dead as an example, but really in L4D you only have the choice between a weak pistol with medium fire rate or a strong magnum with low fire rate, with no back-up melee weapon. Have you seen how fast Afuris and Twin Vipers spray out bullets? A better solution would be to buff pistol ammo drops to 40 per pick up and increase the max ammo for fast-shooting pistols.

 

Also agree with the loot system not rewarding exploration. Considering even loot from lockers and crates are random, it'd be much more lucrative to just run the main route and finish faster instead of exploring every nook and cranny. While i'm not sure whether mods should drop from Lockers, at the very least crates should have a 100% chance of dropping ammo.

 

Really interested on what games you've worked on btw XD great ideas you have there

[rhoenix]

I just finished reading the OP, and all replies so far.  And first of all, I think some very good points are raised.

 

Regarding ammo drops - combining all types of ammo into one type (which would refill your current weapon's ammo) seems best to me; yes, it's basically a copy of the "thermal clip" idea from the ME trilogy, but in reading this post and thinking on my experiences, it seems to be the simplest approach.  They could simply say that Grineer & Corpus starting using the same packaging for various chemicals that get combined within a gun's chamber to make ammo, and call them "ammo packs" or the like.

 

I don't agree with giving sidearms unlimited ammo, since at the moment the Lex and Twin Vipers are as good or better than their long gun counterparts - but this is an issue with game balance, and so remains on the table for discussion, in my book.

 

Now... for the cooldown vs. energy issue.  You raise several good points here, especially with it being hinted by the devs that Warframes will be able to choose eventually from more than just four powers to be active at any given time.  With that in mind, having those four slots simply correspond to the skill mods currently placed in active mod slots on the Warframe seems to be a workable solution.  Now, as for the cooldown vs. energy issue itself - this, I think, is just as much a question of design as it is practice.

 

Here's what I mean with an example, using the Mag - with the current system, though bound entirely by energy amount, a Mag can use Crush to clear part of a large room, collect a few orbs, do it again, collect a few more, and do so for the next room too.  With the proper setup for the character, the player gets the experience of the character "warming up" during a mission; not being able to bust out with the big guns at the start of a mission, but once properly "warmed up," the character can use #4 almost repeatedly.  However, though this ties a character's effective use of abilities directly to the random number generator, it also provides the feeling of one's powers being tied to a river; sometimes you'll be able to spam them repeatedly, and sometimes you barely want to use your #1 ability for fear of it not allowing you to use your #4 when you really need it later.

 

Alternatively, let's view the same scenario with a cooldown system.  With a cooldown system in place instead of an energy-based one, the Mag in the above example couldn't spam Crush repeatedly to clear a room; she could use it maybe once per room, if she was relatively quick. On the other hand, the Mag's player would be far less shy about using Pull, or her other skills, since their use would not prevent using Crush later.

 

The best way I could think of to properly illustrate the two above was by example.  It is for this reason I would agree that going with a cooldown-based system would work out better, since it would make players far less shy about using lower level abilities - and #4 powers would remain the "big bomb" option to be used in emergencies, just as it should be.

 

Thank you for your post here, I was glad to read your points and reasoning.

[Calayne]

Whoa, Ghobe dude. Kinda harsh there. Awesome screen, though, never seen that many mods per run without being thoroughly lucky!

 

And I think people use single pistols for many reasons. The main one would be because they like it. Also, higher reload speed means more time spent peppering shields, which, in a team setting, may be important to prevent shields from going up again while your team reloads a big, fat weapon.

 

I think the energy thing is starting to sound like a debate between swordsmen and wizards. Whatever "&*$$genization" is, I think it's all our choices to make, though I like the cool-down idea. Mods to improve cooldown could always exist if they needed that specialization, they just stop being spam-worthy anymore. Cooldown and power-specialisation are not ideas which are mutually exclusive.

 

The mod capacity thing is interesting, though: More power, or more ammo? Shorten your battles, or lengthen your endurance? Or anywhere in between? I think maybe that's what the developers intended it to come down to: Roll definition by specialisation (or generalization/&*$$genization and whatnot).

 

But still! THAT being said, being short of ammo ALL the time is terrible, especially if it's only by virtue of the type of weapon we use: Damage heavy or fire-rate heavy. I believe if they changed the ammo-pickup type to something based on per-unit-clip, we'd be able to see the future and the implications of the changes we've discussed: Until then, your guess is as good as mine, until we come up with some mathematical proof.

[Tsukinoki]

*Lots of really good points*

All good points here.

And I would like to say that even without unlimited ammo I am able to solo boss runs, including jakal and Hyena and even Kril, with my akboltos. They are modded for VERY high damage, and easily outdamage any rifle I have. If they had unlimited ammo then I wouldn't use anything else (and I mostly use them anyways because of how fast they can rip through just about anything in this game).

Ammo boxes are 1000 credits each. Cheap, easy to get, and not that hard to run through a mission and buy one to fully restore your ammo for your weapon type.

The only way to balance infinate ammo in the pistols is to nerf them to hell and make them worthless against pretty much anything.

Plus, its not suggested to bring the paris into a solo fight against a boss with heavy shields...especially not something like the Jackal. You have to think of your weapon choice against bosses.

Also, removing energy and replace with cooldowns? They tried this way early on and changed it to energy. Why? Because it slows down gameplay too much. Instead of players going on and continuing through the mission they go "How about we sit in this safe niche in the wall until all of our abilities recharge then go through and repeat this room by room." As it is now its "Crap, I need energy so I need to go out there and kill more things/smash more containers" Which drives gameplay instead of halting it.

[Calayne]

Madotsuki and Rheonix makes awesome points. Of course, I think the OP did realise if every ammo drop were universal for weapons, it'd have to be less frequent: That'd make sense, of course! Oh, but then again, I just realised: To prevent over-saturation of ammo, they'd have to issue less drops, lower the ammo refill per drop, or It'd still have to be divided between secondary and primary ammo drops! Still an improvement, but the choices are many. I wonder if tehy decide to go this route, which would they pick?

But Madotsuki, I quite disagree with Afuris and Twin Vipers being over-powered assuming they get infinite ammo: I think they have places where they'll shine or fall flat, depending on enemy type, and it's about just as effective generally as Lexes or Sicarus(es) or so on. After all, after modding, the damage modifier is far larger than the fire-rate modifier. Different roles, apple and orange, yet neither are truly over-powered. When they introduce multiple faction encounters, I think this will become more apparent!

 

Also, big fan of cooldown powers. Cheers!

 

Edit: Holy crap,Tsukinoki makes a very convincing argument. Never been in that phase, so I wouldn't know about it. Did they try cooldown balancing?

Edited April 18, 2013 by Calayne

[Madotsuki]

All good points here.

And I would like to say that even without unlimited ammo I am able to solo boss runs, including jakal and Hyena and even Kril, with my akboltos. They are modded for VERY high damage, and easily outdamage any rifle I have. If they had unlimited ammo then I wouldn't use anything else (and I mostly use them anyways because of how fast they can rip through just about anything in this game).

Ammo boxes are 1000 credits each. Cheap, easy to get, and not that hard to run through a mission and buy one to fully restore your ammo for your weapon type.

The only way to balance infinate ammo in the pistols is to nerf them to hell and make them worthless against pretty much anything.

Plus, its not suggested to bring the paris into a solo fight against a boss with heavy shields...especially not something like the Jackal. You have to think of your weapon choice against bosses.

Also, removing energy and replace with cooldowns? They tried this way early on and changed it to energy. Why? Because it slows down gameplay too much. Instead of players going on and continuing through the mission they go "How about we sit in this safe niche in the wall until all of our abilities recharge then go through and repeat this room by room." As it is now its "Crap, I need energy so I need to go out there and kill more things/smash more containers" Which drives gameplay instead of halting it.

Ammo boxes should only be for desperate measures, not "use one every single high-level mission", regardless of price.

 

And actually, as long as someone has an Energy Siphon artifact, they CAN still sit there and wait for the energy to refill and use abilities again. As long as enemies keep steadily spawning and attacking, people will have to keep moving anyways. You can't get rid of every exploit in a game. Someone will always take the easy route and cheese the game. You can't make a major decision just based on a few people who want to cheese it. I support a cooldown system, even if it needs balancing. With the energy system, I simply refuse to use any of my skills except that one most useful one, be it Iron Skin invuln or an AoE instakill. If someone wants to wait 60-90 seconds per room just so they can use their ult again in the next, let them. It's not like it affects you, especially since the option is already available in-game with the Energy Siphon artifact.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Madotsuki

[Tsukinoki]

Ammo boxes should only be for desperate measures, not "use one every single high-level mission", regardless of price.

 

And actually, as long as someone has an Energy Siphon artifact, they CAN still sit there and wait for the energy to refill and use abilities again. As long as enemies keep steadily spawning and attacking, people will have to keep moving anyways. You can't get rid of every exploit in a game. Someone will always take the easy route and cheese the game. You can't make a major decision just based on a few people who want to cheese it. I support a cooldown system, even if it needs balancing. With the energy system, I simply refuse to use any of my skills except that one most useful one, be it Iron Skin invuln or an AoE instakill. If someone wants to wait 60-90 seconds per room just so they can use their ult again in the next, let them. It's not like it affects you, especially since the option is already available in-game with the Energy Siphon artifact.

 

I use boltor and Akbolto and rarely run out of ammo. And my boltor has a maxed out fire-rate mod so it can chew through ammo fairly quickly against bosses like Hyena. Even on high level enemies I have enough to make it through most of my missions outside of defense missions without needing an ammo box. Am I perfectly accurate? No. But I do aim and have mods to increase the damage of my shots enough that they all count.Plus the majority of groups dont have energy siphon. And most groups dont want to sit in a vent for 2 to 4 minutes recharging 1 energy every other second to be able to use it again.All I was bringing up is that they tried cooldowns before and found it slowed down the gameplay too much so they moved to an energy system which brought it back up to the speed the devs aimed for.

[auxy]

Huh, quotes have stopped working for me entirely. This forum software is ... (´Д⊂ヽ

 

Ghobe--

1000 credits is a pretty good bit of cash to be paying for something you might need to replace every run. That's virtually your entire income from a solo run. I've NEVER seen ten mods in a single mission, and my frame is rank 26 (so you know I'm not a TOTAL noob.) (╹◡╹)

 

Keep in mind that saying "60 mods" you're assuming someone is paying platinum for a supercharge item.

 

In L4D, the magnum was not a one-body-shot deal on horde on advanced, expert, or realism mode.

 

There are a lot of reasons to use a single pistol over dual pistols. Single pistols are more accurate at range, and reload faster. They also are a different sort of stylish, which matters to some of us. Not only that, but you're more likely to place your shots more accurately, leading to possibly greater ammo efficiency.

 

Remember that specializing in guns or melee doesn't require you to expend mod slots in your frame. Specializing in powers does. That's why it's not fair.

 

Calayne--

Even if unlimited secondary ammo did lead people to disregard melee, is that bad? It's their choice, after all. I suppose there's the argument that it might make new players fail to realize how good melee weapons are, but in the end, I think anyone who is going to stick with the game for very long is going to make the best use of their available options.

 

Don't forget that Dark Souls also has a lock-on system -- not that you have to use it, of course. (╹◡╹)

 

Simple ammo conservation sometimes just isn't enough to keep you in ammo; the random drops and randomness OF the drops can make you really hosed.

 

Madotsuki--

Thanks for posting! I'm really enthused at the positive and critical responses I've gotten. You're right that consolidating the ammo types and increasing ammo drops might lead to an overabundance. Still, I think that's preferable to the "anti-fun" situation of running -out- of ammo entirely due to no fault of your own.

 

Remember that there are many ways to balance a weapon. Long reloads, poor accuracy, or heavy recoil can all go a long way towards mitigating high DPS due to high rate of fire. A high rate of fire is not necessarily an advantage in and of itself in any case. As it stands right now, the slower ROF weapons are simply *better* in every practical way.

 

Did you see our suggestion for one or two magazines'-worth of ammo per ammo pickup?

 

I agree that having modules drop from lockers would be very significant. The drop rate couldn't be too high -- although if it were too low, it might be a waste of time anyway. Perhaps a decent drop rate (around 1-2%), but only common mods?

 

Rhoenix--

Thanks for your post as well! And, thanks for helping to illustrate my point about power cooldowns.

 

It seems like there's a lot of resistance on the unlimited secondary ammo idea. I agree that it's a big change, but I think it's really for the better. However, if ammo were changed to 1-2 magazines per drop (using the single-weapon magazine size for dual weapons), that might go far enough to mitigate the problem -- certainly so if enemy ammo drops were increased.

 

Tsukinoki--

Thanks for your reply. Your story about your AKBOLTOs really serves to illustrate my point about slow-firing weapons versus rapid-fire weapons. I do think the AKBOLTOs are a little unbalanced specifically.

 

If players are waiting on their big powers to recharge before moving on, doesn't that suggest a problem with the players, rather than the system? I think you have the wrong idea for the scale of cooldowns I'm suggesting. A few seconds for early powers (with exceptions for things like Slash Dash, which can clear a whole room), and usually a minute or even less for ultimate powers.

 

The energy system right now leaves players who wish to be power-heavy at the mercy of the RNG, and leaving your players entirely at the mercy of the RNG is never good. Never.

[Oz270]

I'm strongly against the whole singular ammo pool and unlimited ammo on sidearms.
It will just make the game too easy in one aspect (ammo conservation is a part of the challenge of the game too)

 

games need a challenge, if there's no challenge there's no fun to be had.

 

Really like the pick up downed enemy weapon idea though.

[Calayne]

Haha, and another good point is made. I think cooldown generally encourageous two things: The use of all skills, and the abuse of the cooldown. And I think energy generally encourages the opposite of the above: Using specific skills according to need, and "Saving" for abuse of ultimates.

 

I think both have their pros and cons, but if the cooldown were tweaked, I believe it's got more potential to let people really try out their skills rather than keep it on standby just in case they need it at a later time.

 

But I think the energy path has more potential for abuse, seeing there's a mod that recovers energy anyways: Some groups who are fully modded with that could hang back and wait for full energy, go in, Ultis blazing.

 

In contrast, the cooldown path has more potential for additional powers: Seeing as devs wanna introduce ability/skill/power mods, this lets you use a full range of skills without being stingy with it, as energy use would encourage. It makes the use of the mod slots more worth it, I feel.

[Madotsuki]

I use boltor and Akbolto and rarely run out of ammo. And my boltor has a maxed out fire-rate mod so it can chew through ammo fairly quickly against bosses like Hyena. Even on high level enemies I have enough to make it through most of my missions outside of defense missions without needing an ammo box. Am I perfectly accurate? No. But I do aim and have mods to increase the damage of my shots enough that they all count.

 

Plus the majority of groups dont have energy siphon. And most groups dont want to sit in a vent for 2 to 4 minutes recharging 1 energy every other second to be able to use it again.

 

All I was bringing up is that they tried cooldowns before and found it slowed down the gameplay too much so they moved to an energy system which brought it back up to the speed the devs aimed for.

 

I rarely run out of ammo too, i just get rather angry whenever someone mentions "JUST USE AMMO BOXES DUR". I have never used an ammo box or health restore thus far. lol.

 

And what I mean to say is, as long as someone in the group has the Energy Siphon artifact, if they wanted to, they can wait forever for their energy to recharge. Same thing for cooldown abilities. Those that don't want to wait and want some action will rush on ahead regardless. Those that don't care about adventure and just want to beat the level will wait for the cooldown to finish. It's all a matter of playstyle. People will cheese if they want to cheese, one way or another. At least with a cooldown system I'd actually use more than one skill.

[auxy]

I'm strongly against the whole singular ammo pool and unlimited ammo on sidearms.

It will just make the game too easy in one aspect (ammo conservation is a part of the challenge of the game too)

 

games need a challenge, if there's no challenge there's no fun to be had.

 

Really like the pick up downed enemy weapon idea though.

As I said a moment ago, simply "conserving" ammo isn't enough sometimes. Sometimes you simply do not get the ammo type you need; other times, you're using a weapon which uses ammo too quickly to stay supplied by the random drops -- even when they're being generous with the drops.

[rhoenix]

 

Rhoenix--

Thanks for your post as well! And, thanks for helping to illustrate my point about power cooldowns.

 

It seems like there's a lot of resistance on the unlimited secondary ammo idea. I agree that it's a big change, but I think it's really for the better. However, if ammo were changed to 1-2 magazines per drop (using the single-weapon magazine size for dual weapons), that might go far enough to mitigate the problem -- certainly so if enemy ammo drops were increased.

 

I'm not against the idea because I think it won't work; not at all.  I'm only against it for the current time because the guns aren't quite balanced yet.  Once there's more of a selection of long guns, and once they're buffed to feel more like long guns, then I'd have no problem with unlimited sidearm ammo whatsoever.

 

If it were refined so that enemies simply dropped "ammo packs" that could be used with any weapon, well, that would solve the issue neatly as well.

[auxy]

I'm not against the idea because I think it won't work; not at all.  I'm only against it for the current time because the guns aren't quite balanced yet.  Once there's more of a selection of long guns, and once they're buffed to feel more like long guns, then I'd have no problem with unlimited sidearm ammo whatsoever.

 

If it were refined so that enemies simply dropped "ammo packs" that could be used with any weapon, well, that would solve the issue neatly as well.

Absolutely. (； ｀ｪ´ ；)b三b

 

Glad to see we're in agreement!