Update Aspects Of The Game Design To Modern Standards

[RawGritz]

Firstly thanks for taking the time to put all that together. Very well thought out and eloquent. But I don't like a single game you mentioned. No not true... Love Borderlands!

Infinite ammo? No thanks. I have a hard time taking any game seriously that offers infinite munitions. That's a great way to suck out some of the immersion. Plus it removes a level of challenge

But I am totally with you on the physics. And it's actually hard to spot where the problem orignates with that one. Netcode? Probably. But there is something going on with collision physics as well. But no game is offering a similar movement system. BRINK tried, got close but ultimately fell short.

Yup you're right. There needs to be more incentive to explore. There are hidden rooms but even these only yield a bit of creds and some ammo. You don't feel accomplished for having successfully chained all those wall runs.

Cooldowns. Naw. I don't see why that's needed in this. They could reduce energy orb drops if they thought it was an issue or nerf OP'd powers. Monitoring a cooldown takes less thought than it does to find blue orbs. It's also one the main features on gaming keyboards and such -- a cooldown timer that thinks so you don't have to. With the orbs an Ancient can smack the snot and full energy bar out of you with a single hit. My ember can hit 450 energy and I can't tell you how many time an ancient has knocked that to ZIP!

 

But it seems suggestions like this and the infinite ammo would really dumb down the game and take away some of the thinking and strategy. I like preparing for missions--rearranging mods and weapons loads and adding ammo boxed because I know I'm going into some serious SHIST!

I don't want this to turn into your average 3rd person shooter, that's derivative and feels a little like Mass Effect, a little like Halo and KoAmular... Again, for me personally not one of those is on my hard drive right now. For me those games are more about instant gratification than anything else.

 

And while we can agree the parkour and collision/netcode need work. This to me is like a general ability that you mention. The parkour is available to all frames and can mean the matter of life or death when mastered. I've seen guys do some amazing things with low level frames, no ammo and a kitted out set of Dual Zorens, Heat or Plasma sword.

Edited April 19, 2013 by RawGritz

[fauxhb]

big no to infinite ammo, just think about it, half of the weapons would become op. those ammo conservate heavy hitting weapons would be outshined by afuris and twin vipers, which fire dozens of bullets a blink.

energy management also makes for a challenge. you have to save some energy for the boss. you need to rethink your build, and if necessary, install flow/streamline mods.

 

i think these two you are offering out sheer selfishness, because that's the way you'd like things to be, but not what's best for the majority of players.

 

i agree on ammo pickups tho. make em drop relatively to what weapon you were using when you killed the enemy. similarly to borderlands the first. if you use rifle, rifle ammo is most likely to drop out of any available ammo type.

[RawGritz]

The wall of text on ammo pick ups misses the fact that it's very hard to run out of ammo if you aim properly, loot crates/lockers, and know when to use an ability or melee in order to conserve ammo for when you need it.  The fact that most modern games don't encourage you to conserve your resources has never really sat well with me. 

 

couldn't agree more +1

[Aggh]

big no to infinite ammo, just think about it, half of the weapons would become op. those ammo conservate heavy hitting weapons would be outshined by afuris and twin vipers, which fire dozens of bullets a blink.

energy management also makes for a challenge. you have to save some energy for the boss. you need to rethink your build, and if necessary, install flow/streamline mods.

 

i think these two you are offering out sheer selfishness, because that's the way you'd like things to be, but not what's best for the majority of players.

 

i agree on ammo pickups tho. make em drop relatively to what weapon you were using when you killed the enemy. similarly to borderlands the first. if you use rifle, rifle ammo is most likely to drop out of any available ammo type.

I'd perfer that the ammo drops be only what you can use.  But this isn't because of any kind of problem with the drop rates, you should still get the same amount of ammo.  I just don't like the idea of piles of ammo drops on the floor that' you'll never use possibly using up system resources that needn't be wasted.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Aggh

[CosyPigeon]

I think the main problem with the current ammo drop system at the moment, is that 2 3rds of the ammo drops fall through the floor, so you can't pick them up. The enemies drop plenty of ammo, but since almost all of it falls through the floor, you can't pick it up. it's infuriating seeing 6 orange light pillars for pistol ammo drops poking through the floor, running over them, and not picking them up because they are 3 inches underneath the floor. If I could actually pick up the ammo enemies drop, I'd rarely run out. I don't think making secondary ammo unlimited is a viable solution though, since secondary weapons are often just as good as primary weapons.

Otherwise I agree with allot of the OP's points, I'd like to see a revision to how the energy system works so that people make more use of their base and utility powers frequently instead of just hoarding energy to spam their ultimates.

There should be allot more rewards for exploration of a level, lockers and chests should drop more credits and mods, Speed running Tolstoj should not be the fastest way to get credits.

Generic ability mods in a separate ability mod section Also sounds good, This way all frames can have some basic utility.

Hopefully the movement physics will be addressed over time, allot of the movement keys currently feel sticky and unresponsive, but that's beta.

[Aggh]

I think the main problem with the current ammo drop system at the moment, is that 2 3rds of the ammo drops fall through the floor, so you can't pick them up. The enemies drop plenty of ammo, but since almost all of it falls through the floor, you can't pick it up. it's infuriating seeing 6 orange light pillars for pistol ammo drops poking through the floor, running over them, and not picking them up because they are 3 inches underneath the floor. If I could actually pick up the ammo enemies drop, I'd rarely run out. I don't think making secondary ammo unlimited is a viable solution though, since secondary weapons are often just as good as primary weapons.

Otherwise I agree with allot of the OP's points, I'd like to see a revision to how the energy system works so that people make more use of their base and utility powers frequently instead of just hoarding energy to spam their ultimates.

There should be allot more rewards for exploration of a level, lockers and chests should drop more credits and mods, Speed running Tolstoj should not be the fastest way to get credits.

Generic ability mods in a separate ability mod section Also sounds good, This way all frames can have some basic utility.

Hopefully the movement physics will be addressed over time, allot of the movement keys currently feel sticky and unresponsive, but that's beta.

The light pillars stay after you've picked them up.  I've never seen ammo drops sink into the floor.

 

The fact that people don't use most of the frames' abilities is a product of the balance of effectiveness of the powers, not the energy system. 

 

Almost no one uses volt's shock power.  It's not because it's too expensive, it's because it's bad.  There is no point in wasting mod space on it regardless of what the energy cost is, if they made it cost 5 energy, people still would not use it.  On the other hand, volt is one of the few frames where most of the abilities are genuinely worth using.  Energy shield and Speed have a S#&$ ton of utility and overload is a powerful aoe ability.  Making shock more effective would mean that players would be more likely to use it. 

 

Cool down systems just encourage power spamming and timing.  You'll almost always have an ability you can use and resource conservation is completely in the player's control, which makes the game a little too easy.  The current system may let you spam your ult a couple times, but you may not be able to get enough energy to keep at it.  The more random resource gain means you have to be more careful with how you use your powers.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Aggh

[RawGritz]

The light pillars stay after you've picked them up.  I've never seen ammo drops sink into the floor.

nope. me either

[Anelyn]

You do know that Jackal encounter drops loot (energy orbs and munition)?

I don't agree with any of your points sorry. If you would spend your time to open all lockers, break all containers etc, you will never have ammo problems. If you just rush ahead emptying an entire clip of Afuris to kill an enemy then yes you will have ammunition problems.

Energy system with orbs is fine as it is. No cooldown on powers. CD on powers doesn't make the game more tactic / strategic, but more limiting.

There are several "treasure rooms" hidden in levels, you just need to know where to look, and try to explore (involves acrobatics often).

Edited April 19, 2013 by Anelyn

[Aggh]

You do know that Jackal encounter drops loot (energy orbs and munition)?

I don't agree with any of your points sorry. If you would spend your time to open all lockers, break all containers etc, you will never have ammo problems. If you just rush ahead emptying an entire clip of Afuris to kill an enemy then yes you will have ammunition problems.

Energy system with orbs is fine as it is. No cooldown on powers. CD on powers doesn't make the game more tactic / strategic, but more limiting.

There are several "treasure rooms" hidden in levels, you just need to know where to look, and try to explore (involves acrobatics often).

Looting and exploration is one of the few things that he is right about.  But like most of his points, he's not quite on target.  Looting isn't lackluster because exploration isn't encouraged.  It's lackluster because the loot is lackluster. 

 

Even the old system, while limited, had the ability to surprise you with powerful loot drops.  Right now the closest thing to that is finding really rare mods like the flow mod, and that's kind of sad, finding a power max mod shouldn't be a big deal.  The loot itself needs to be a bit more random (in functionality), rare, and potentially more powerful than it is now to make it worthwhile.

 

The devs have indicated that they will be making changes in that direction, but ither way, before they make changes to exploration and looting, the actual loot needs to be more worthwhile and unique.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Aggh

[auxy]

O-kay! I'm finally home, so let me dig into the thread. I'm going to make an edit to the first post that summarizes the points a little better and then I'll work on replies to a few of the replies; at least, the ones I think warrant addressing. (╹◡╹)

[Naqel]

Your post just about sums up my thoughts on the issues you touch upon.

 

The game has more issues of course, but many solutions you offer would most certainly do the trick in terms of making the game more enjoyable.

[auxy]

Okay, here we go. This is gonna be long!

 

Please don't just look for your name. I make relevant points in most of the replies!

 

RXIS--

Believe me, I have no interest in making the game more generic. The game is very unique as it is and I merely want to see some aspects of the game that hearken back to older games updated for newer game design paradigms. I also don't want to see the game made easier. I agree with many posters who say it is too easy already, and I do not think my proposed changes would make the game a lot easier.

 

A LOT of people have given various anecotes such as RXIS' example, things like "well *I* never run out of ammo, so ammo is never a problem", and I'm sorry, but that's just not accurate. Certain weapons are rendered almost useless by their high rates of fire and the limited ammo capacity. Much of this could be fixed by simply increasing the ammo pickup amounts and total ammo capacity to be proportional to the weapon's magazine size. I still think unlimited secondary ammo is a better choice. (╹◡╹)

 

Note that I'm not saying "I run out of ammo, so it's a problem", which is the inverse of that. I know some players will read that into what I'm saying, and that's not it at all. What I'm really saying is "some weapons are almost useless because they run out of ammo too easily," and as a corollary to that, "the weapon balance is poor because ammo is poorly balanced." A thoughtful designer could go over the weapons with a fine-toothed comb and rebalance the maximum ammo values; I wouldn't be opposed to this. However, changing the ammo system entirely obviates the need for that, and is simpler in the end.

 

A few people have made remarks like yours about choosing the proper loadout for the mission. I don't think expecting the player to do this is good game design. Certainly optimizing for your mission should be an option, but out-and-out requiring it is bad.

 

One game series which relies heavily on this is Armored Core, which has extensive mission briefings to help you pick your gear carefully, and on many missions, if you don't bring the right equipment, you simply lose automatically -- literally! I recall one mission in (I think) AC3 where if you don't bring hover legs, you just fall in the water and die on spawn. That's really annoying and doesn't add anything to the game experience. It's just a "screw you" from the devs to inattentive players. Some of the more hardcore among you will no doubt be thinking "well, they deserve it" about now, and I don't entirely disagree. However, in the end, there's no real penalty, they just have to restart the mission, which means all you've done is waste their time, which means a less happy customer. It's pointless time-wasting and it doesn't belong in a good game. (The better solution would have been to prevent the player from entering the mission without appropriate legs. You have a dispatcher after all; shouldn't she have said something?)

 

WARFRAME doesn't have problems like that (thank heavens), but I really think the game should attempt to cater to any and all playstyles as much as possible, and to that end, I think that if a given loadout isn't viable, that's a problem.

 

As far as your remarks on a different energy mechanic, well, I don't know how their prior cooldown system was implemented, but I can only assume it was either poorly-designed or that they had a particularly poor group of testers. There's no advantage to the current RNG-dependent system. You could make it work by heavily altering the energy costs of some powers. Still, I don't think the system is good, and I don't think offering mods as a solution is a good long-term fix. I think MJ12's dynamic cooldown idea is the best I've heard.

 

Inez--

Once again, I have no interest in making the game more generic. I do not think these improvements would make the game more generic, and in any case that was never my intention.

 

Right now, limited ammo is not a very useful balancing factor. Some weapons -- as stated earlier in the thread -- have effectively unlimited ammo already, and other weapons are virtually useless due to their limited ammo supply and low damage-per-shot. It's true that maximum ammo can be useful as a balance tool, but there's still a lot of balance work, and removing that factor from the very delicate balance equation could really improve the overall balance of the game.

 

Cooldowns aren't new, no -- but they're newer than resource management systems, in any case, which debuted with the first strategy games (long before computer games existed.) By comparison, cooldowns are much newer. You make comparisons to World of Warcraft, but World of Warcraft was not the first game to popularize heavy use of cooldowns, and it also made heavy use of resource management systems. I have bittersweet memories of my Enhance shaman blowing through her mana in an instant in BC. (Well, I probably didn't stack enough Intellect. (╹◡╹)

 

While cooldowns are not inherently better than resource management -- both have their place, certainly -- I simply think that a system of individual cooldowns for powers would suit the rapid action gameplay of WARFRAME much better than a fiddly energy system. Modern action games are moving toward pure cooldown systems and recharging-resource systems for their powers; TERA was mentioned, and it uses just such a system.

 

I actually do quite a lot of exploration; I don't know why several posters assumed that I don't. I play by myself a fair bit because I have to be able to get up and away from the keyboard at a moment's notice, and it also allows me to enjoy exploring all the nooks and crannies in the tiles.

 

Understand carefully the difference between "solid" movement and "good" movement. I never said or implied WARFRAME's movement was out-and-out "bad", nor did I say the movement mechanics in other games are "better". I did say other games do a better job at making the character feel grounded, and some of those include the Mass Effect and Gears of War franchises, as well as the Saint's Row series (which has fantastic running, jumping, and climbing animations). I want to stress that I do not think WARFRAME should control or play like these games. Don't misunderstand; I merely think these games have a better "feeling" to the movement, at least on the ground; they are less "floaty"; the player character feels more "connected" to the world. Perhaps it has something to do with inverse kinematics? (╹◡╹)

 

Let me stress carefully that I do not want to make the game more like MMOs. I have no interest in a click-to-target system; I have no interest in auto-aiming abilities. If anything, I want the game to be LESS like an MMO, with all the random drops and RNG-heavy mechanics. (╹◡╹)

 

Thanks again for your post; I'm always happy to clarify misunderstandings and hear dissenting opinions!

 

MJ12--

Hello again! I think you really hit the nail on the head with your point about convenience versus difficulty. The difference between pointless tedium and actual challenge is something that all game designers struggle with, and very few gamers understand the difference between quality-of-life improvements to efficiency and "dumbing down" the game (which has more to do with depth, really.) Thanks for another insightful post!

 

krisp--

Most of your post comes off as pedantic nit-picking and argumentum ad hominem. For example, saying that I used the term "pay2win" wrong when you really misunderstood what I meant. (More on this later.) You also make a lot of obviously erroneous statements like saying that I am speaking about my "feelings" rather than mechanics, which is simply false.

 

The ammo system changes I have proposed are actually much simpler than what is in place now, both mechanically and technically. I don't know why you think they are complicated.

 

The melee soft lock-on wasn't actually even my idea, but one of my colleagues'. I do like the idea, but saying that I want it because I'm unskilled is a bit childish.

 

Thanks for continuing to post, however!

 

Calayne--

Hello again! I think you are absolutely right on tack talking about how some of the weapons aren't really viable in single-player -- personally, I think that some of the weapons just aren't viable at all, as they are!

 

I love the idea of mini-bosses. Having random or semi-random in-mission mini-bosses that drop good rewards would be fantastic and a real reason to explore.

 

Eurhetemec--

Goodness, that name is a handful to type! (╹◡╹) Thanks so much for your support! The more people restate our arguments, the more likely it is that someone will understand when my explanation was too opaque. I am not a writer by trade! ┐(´∀｀)┌

 

I agree that the problems with melee attacking might very well be a beta issue, and I do hope they get ironed out.

 

Pixues--

I find the idea of buying slots to be par for the course for a free-to-play game. Most games of this type have something similar, usually character slots, although that's basically what the frame slots are. Obviously I would rather not pay for slots, but #SOCKS.

 

However, the fact that you can only buy these slots with Platinum is especially despicable to me. Not altogether surprising, but despicable nonetheless. Still, this kind of thing is the nature of the beast. It is the price we pay for not paying. (╹◡╹)

 

NightKill--

You might want to try Gunz: The Duel, which is online (although quite old now). It's not a great game, though.

 

Mirror's Edge -is- a great game, and can be had for a pittance on Steam these days. However, it's not online.

 

Tsukinoki--

Wow, you made a lot of posts! Let's see if I can condense some of my replies to you; I hope you understand them!

 

The weapons that run through their ammo quickly are mostly bad right now. They don't have the DPS or the range to make up for their pathetically low ammo efficiency compared to other guns until modded -- and those same mods can be applied to the other guns to make them even better.

 

There's no reason to have certain types of ammo be rarer. Since a player can only carry one type of primary weapon, dropping them less shotgun or sniper ammo for their only weapon they have is just kind of a jerk move and doesn't make the game more fun. The weapon balance issues are just that -- weapon balance issues -- and don't justify variable ammo rarity or separate ammo types at all.

 

Since the ammo drop counts are so small, having more enemies actually exacerbates the problem where more enemies != more ammo, rather than alleviating it.

 

Choosing to optimize for powers is a choice the player can make, yes. However, right now, this puts them at a stark disadvantage to another player who doesn't. Let's examine this:

 

Alice and Bob have the same loadout in their warframes, but Alice decides to take Flow, where Bob decides to take Vitality. Alice now has much more max energy, allowing to use her powers slightly more than she could use them before, sometimes, because energy orbs are still random drops.

 

Bob, on the other hand, assuming he hasn't even fused his Vitality at all, now has a whopping 40% more health. (Only base health, but still can be quite a bit.) This is a titanic advantage over what Alice gained, especially since they can both deal the same damage with their weapons (totally unaffected by frame mods) -- and Bob may be able to use his powers just as much as Alice. Bob's warframe may also have armor, increasing the effectiveness of the extra health and synergizing nicely.

 

There's also the consideration that Alice has probably put a lot more credits and cores into fusing up her powers, whereas Bob has probably put those credits and cores into fusing up mods for his weapons (the primary damage source for both, in theory). Since weapons are -- on the whole -- a much more reliable source of damage, Bob's warframe is just a lot more effective.

 

I see you are worried about the cooldowns limiting your powers, and that's a common concern in this thread. The goal of implementing a cooldown-based system would be to allow players to use their powers MORE, not LESS. In the example you used, your Shuriken power may indeed have a four-second cooldown, but you should be able to reduce it slightly by fusing it, (maybe 0.2 second per fusion, putting you at 3 seconds when fully fused? as well as the other benefits of fusing it) and perhaps Shuriken could even have a special mechanic where it resets its cooldown if it's used to kill a target? That kind of thing would add both depth and challenge to the game.

 

Once more, people, I generally have no trouble aiming or using my FURAX. (´∀⊂ヽHaha! It's so silly to think that I'm unskilled because I want things to be more efficient. Having to aim my melee weapon is not challenging, it's merely tedious. In most games with melee combat, the weapon damages targets it passes through; in this game, the non-heavy weapons damage targets under your crosshair. This is awkward, unintuitive, and sometimes frustrating (like when the screen is shaking because of a nearby teammate's SCINDO.) You say that you would hate to have a soft-lock; I don't blame you. I don't like auto-aim in FPS games. I definitely think this sort of feature should have the option to be disabled, as I've said.

 

Later on, in another post, you said that modern does not equal good. It's definitely true that classic and retro games have a lot of great ideas and we should look to them for inspiration. However, there are many reasons we aren't still playing mostly games like that, and one of them is that game design has moved on from those games. If you look at a game like Serious Sam 3 -- fantastic graphics and technology, but the gameplay itself feels very dated. This is not necessarily a bad thing, if you prefer it.

 

However, WARFRAME is a very new game and it does make use of a lot of modern conventions; I *do* absolutely think they should make every attempt to incorporate modern game design "best practices" whenever possible. The things I've brought up in this thread are things that seem awkward, out-of-place, and slow down the game from what it should be, which is an ultra-high-intensity action blast-fest. Of course, that's my vision, and your own vision of the game may vary. Still, I do think this is what the developers really intended.

 

You make the implication that people having ammo problems should learn to aim. However, no matter how good your aim is, some weapons are simply useless outside short range; FURIS, VIPER, and BOAR are good examples of this. You can fire the pistols somewhat accurately at medium range by bursting them, but their pathetically low damage codes mean this is an exercise in futility; you'd do better to drop-kick them and beat their face in. It'd certainly be faster.

 

These weapons, too, suffer from their high rate of fire. You make the remark that "fast reload + fast fire rate + infinite ammo = broken weapon"; on the surface, that certainly seems true. However, in reality, in this game as it is now, fast reload + fast fire rate + infinite ammo = lots of light ammo spent uselessly against body armor. Infinite ammo would make these weapons viable, not overpowered. Still, if you don't like the infinite ammo idea, I'm not married to it; Calayne and others have proposed other great solutions to the ammo problem.

 

Honestly, your anecdote about your friends running out of ammo despite using weapons with good ammo efficiency like LATRON really highlights how much of a problem the ammo system really is.

 

stortz--

You ...　(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

... ah, you know what? I can't be bothered. ┐(´∀｀)┌ Thanks for your reply!

 

Babalenong--

Thanks for your support! I'm glad one more person sees the truth of the matter.

 

Pathyriel--

Ah, yet more anecdotes about (almost, in your case) never running out of ammo. (´Д⊂ヽ It's almost becoming memetic at this point. ANECDOTES!

 

In this context, "pay 2 win" and "pay 2 convenience" are the same thing. You can say that I used the wrong term, or used the term inappropriately, but you knew what I meant, didn't you? Arguably, "pay 2 convenience" is really what almost all "pay 2 win" mechanics actually are. (╹◡╹)

 

Thanks for your support, though, and thanks for your reply. It's encouraging to hear more people understanding my views!

 

Nonentity--

Hi there! I think you're absolutely spot on about doing some unabashed cribbing from Mass Effect 3. ME3 isn't a perfect game by any means, but they did a lot of things right, especially in the stellar multi-player component (aside from the pay 2 win booster packs! ugh!) On a related note, I'd really like to see the ability to "curve" powers around cover at enemies like in Mass Effect, or like the bullets in the Wanted game. Very cool feature!

 

The_Doc--

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my entire post! I suspect most people haven't, even some of my close friends. I want to stress once more that I have absolutely no interest in "dumbing down" the game. I absolutely want more depth; I think depth is what makes an experience compelling, which is why you're seeing a lot of traditionally very shallow genres (like shooters and fighting games) adding so-called "RPG elements", which are really just mechanics to add depth and persistence. Remember: removing needless tedium doesn't remove depth.

 

Saint_Tan--

As I mentioned to Tsukinoki above, antiquated design decisions can be okay, if that's the style of game you're going for. You mentioned Minecraft and its absurdly simplistic graphics, however, those actually served a technical purpose in the game. WARFRAME is a very new game and has no reason to be held to classical or retro conventions.

 

Justifying the random ammo drops with fluff and lore lacks internal consistency. Why would there be -any- ammo compatible with your weapon behind enemy lines, especially given that the lore states many of the weapons were created -by- the Tenno? I like the idea that someone -- Calayne, I think? -- proposed that justifies the idea of consolidated ammo pickups by saying that they are "ammo components" or "packages" of an unspecified material which shapes itself into ammo based on your weapon. Call it nanotech or something; it's basically a Hand Wave in any case. I don't know about you, but while I do like my lore in games to make sense, I'm not really here for the lore.

 

You say that limiting a player's ammo supply increases the tension in the game, but I don't really find the game to be tense in any case at this point -- mostly it's either super crazy fun or frustratingly tedious, with very little middle ground. I really think having the player manage and worry over ammo all the time is pure anti-fun; it slows down the game and can bring the fun to a screeching halt when your big gun is all out of bang-bangs.

 

You, like a few others, have remarked that conserving ammo is what the melee weapons are for, but that's an incomplete solution to the problem, and besides, there are plenty of enemies in the game which aren't especially well-suited to melee attacks. Too many times I've been sent ground-ward by a Grinneer Heavy Gunner's radial blast, and do you really want to get close to Toxic Ancients? Not only that, but what's the problem if some players don't use their melee weapon? That's their own decision, and their prerogative. Heck, I think if someone doesn't want to melee, they shouldn't have to!

 

I ABSOLUTELY agree that we should be doing wacky ninja scroll moves. In NO way am I suggesting that be removed or toned down. On the contrary, I want these mechanics improved and tightened up to make them more reliable and more consistent. There needs to be some tutorial for these moves too, as I didn't even know you could wallrun until an hour into the game. I got into a loot room -- the one that you drop into out of the fan vents -- and thought I was stuck until my brother pointed out you can wallrun!

 

Thanks for your support and for your posts. Posts like yours prompt discussion and also help to iron out misconceptions and misunderstandings. Ｇｒｅａｔ　Ｊｏｂ！(╹◡╹)

 

Ghobe--

Hi again! Thanks for keeping up with the thread and being a consistent dissentor. Even if I don't agree with your tone or style sometimes, I appreciate the criticism.

 

I don't disagree at all that each weapon should have a role, a purpose, but right now, I think some weapons are just useless, or near it. It's very frustrating to have spent so much money on a weapon only to find out its utility is severely limited -- and even moreso given how tight credits are.

 

On that note -- and this is going to be controversial, I already know it -- I obviously am aware you can farm for credits, and I've even done it a bit myself. You do make credits pretty fast if you work at it, but it's very tedious, and not fun at all. It's in fact very frustrating, because you're doing something so un-fun in a game that is otherwise a blast to play. I realize farming is a huge part of most free-to-play games, and I was really hoping WARFRAME would step away from that somewhat, but I see that I am probably wrong.

 

Farming isn't fun. I think everyone would agree with that. Many players of these games these days -- myself included -- are adults with families, jobs, social lives, and even children, and we just don't have time to dump 40 hours a week into a game anymore. The obvious answer is to spend real money on the game, but some of us find that solution objectionable in a game that is so obviously making a grab for our purses/wallets/checkbooks and intends to gouge us mercilessly while doing so. I did buy founder status, since it seemed a fair deal -- and I do want to support the game -- but that's all.

 

So what are we left with? Well, not much, frankly. The only option if you want to advance quickly (besides buying the overpriced platinum currency) is heavy farming, and that's just not very fun. In that case? Well, I think I'd go play something else.

 

Don't get me wrong; personally, I'll probably never stop playing WARFRAME, since it's free to play -- it provides a great game experience truly unlike anything found elsewhere. However, the game appeals very directly to me in a few ways; for a more casual player, I can easily see the emphasis on pay2win and/or farming to be very offputting. My brother already uninstalled the game in disgust, as I mentioned before.

 

PunCrathod--

As I mentioned to another poster in this post, game design does march on. Like all things, it evolves and changes as players seek a more fulfilling and gratifying experience. It's true that there's still enjoyment to be had in classic games and classic game mechanics -- WARFRAME is already a blast to play -- but that doesn't make them better or even comparable to current games or game mechanics. Surely it's informed by a person's tastes, but then, that's sort of a redundant thing to say, because everything is informed by an individual's subjective reality. Even your perception of the world around you can be affected by your own ideas and preconceived notions.

 

You remark that changing the ammo system is a sweeping change that will affect the balance of all the weapons, and you're absolutely right! BUT, as I said above, it will also simplify the game and make balancing the weapons easier in the end. Ammo is the foundation of the ranged weapons, the thing they all have in common, and since the ammo system is flawed, those flaws "trickle down" through the rest of the ranged combat systems (and even affect other systems, since most are balanced at least in part relative to the ranged combat.)

 

Frankly, in my experience, the coders tell the designers to take a hike once the game hits beta stage. It's hard to make sweeping changes to a game's design this late in the development cycle, and it's frustrating for everyone involved -- artists, coders, and even the designers themselves, not to mention the hardworking beta testers! -- when big changes are made. Still, sometimes it has to be done.

 

Cooldowns fit into the lore as well as any other mechanic; you can justify them just as easily as you can justify energy. If your Fireball power can only be used once every eight seconds, then you can say that Ember can only manifest that energy that often, and those circuits/cells/whatever have to recharge between uses. It's a Hand Wave, for sure, but so is almost any other lore explanation. You could make up an elaborate story about Ember's Phlebotinum, if it please you.

 

Still, to reiterate from earlier, the point of moving to cooldowns is to enable players to use MORE of their powers, MORE often. As it stands right now, for most frames, powers are a pretty minor part of the game, which means that frames just aren't that different. Sure, you CAN use them a lot -- sometimes -- but to enable that kind of playstyle with any reliability you have to either give up a lot of effectiveness on your frame mods, or do an incredible amount of farming -- and that's something you CAN'T buy with platinum.

 

You should check out MJ12's post discussing dynamic cooldowns -- I can't credit him enough for this idea.

 

FatRefrigerator--

Thanks so much for your support! Your username made me giggle.

 

Drusus--

I'm sorry, but if you can't be bothered to read, I can't either. ┐(´∀｀)┌ﾔﾚﾔﾚだぜ

 

Aggh--

ANECDOTES! ヽ(｀Д´#)ﾉ Hehe. Deus Ex: Invisible War is one of my favorite games of all time. I think it deserves a place right alongside the other Deus Ex games in the annals of gaming history. All of the Ion Storm games are underrated IMO, especially Anachronox. Such a cool game!

 

I think you're a little confused on my point about exploration. I actually said that the poor quality of loot available is what discourages exploration, not the other way around.  "The loot is lackluster" is more or less what I said, though not in so few words. Perhaps I should have been more concise? (╹◡╹) Well, that's probably true. Still, I think it's a little unfair of you to say that I "miss the mark, as usual" when you misread me.

 

Gorgon--

Thanks for your support! I like the idea referencing rage meters in games. If the developers have a hate-on for cooldowns -- which would truly be regrettable -- this would be a decent alternate solution to the power problem.

 

RawGritz--

You say that infinite ammo removes challenge; I don't agree. Many weapons in the game already have effectively infinite ammo, like the LEX pistol. Many other players have stated how they have "never" had a problem with ammo, so making it unlimited certainly wouldn't impact them very much. Some of the secondary weapons in this game are very strong, and I do like that, but they don't quite scale as high as the primary weapons in many cases, especially at range. I think unlimited secondaries would go a long way toward resolving some balance issues and would really not impact the high-end (that is, the maximum damage output over time).

 

I feel very strongly about the cooldown system replacing the current energy orb system. As it is, many players that I have played with rarely use their powers, and almost never anything besides their "4" or "ultimate" power. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, this is because the current system not only leaves how often you can use your powers up to the RNG gods, but it also punishes you for using your weaker powers by making your higher powers unavailable. Once you have a few hundred energy available, this is less of a problem, but it's still a problem, and to make matters worse, there's nothing stopping you from spamming your ultimate on what should have been a pretty tough room. It totally screws the difficulty and makes powers less fun to use.

 

As far as Disruptors go, there's no reason they couldn't also whack your cooldowns, or even lock out your powers for a short period -- or both! (╹◡╹)

 

Yet again, let me reiterate that I am NOT interested in "dumbing down" the game. I don't want it to be shallower, more generic, or less challenging. On the contrary, I want to see more of these things! (ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｂ I simply want to see some of the tedium and pointless faffing about removed.

 

CosyPigeon--

The drops that are "falling through the floor" are actually ammo drops you've already collected! As someone else pointed out, the pillars of light you're seeing are actually there so that you can point other players toward them, if they're running low on ammo.

 

The fact that you're running out enough that you thought it was a bug, despite actually collecting most of the drops, should serve nicely to demonstrate my point! (╹◡╹) Thanks for your helpful, illustrative post!

 

Anelyn--

The Jackal encounter doesn't drop sniper ammo, and pistol ammo is all but useless for some weapons. Power isn't all that useful for some frames either, at least in terms of direct damage. Believe it or not, as I mentioned above, I do explore extensively; I'm usually that jerkface off half the map away looting chests while everyone else is tapping their feet at the exit. (´・ω・`)

 

The energy system is much more limiting overall than cooldowns. I have typed this at least three times in this post; read the rest of the post or the rest of the thread if you want explanations.

 

Naqel--

Thanks for your support! I really appreciate everyone who posts in this thread. More posts means more attention, which means more likelihood that our concerns will be addressed by the developers.

 

I really hope the developers will consider making some real, sweeping changes, rather than pussyfooting around with balance changes, or forging ahead with new content. The game as it is is really fun, super fun, but it definitely has some serious problems with the core mechanics. Here's to a bright future for WARFRAME! °˖✧◝(⁰▿⁰)◜✧˖°

[BlueCremeSoda]

I agree to the primary ammo thing: The drops should be of only one kind, and it doesn't even have to drop that often. But, I think it'd be wiser to scale ammo drops to per-clip quantities, rather than absolute quantities. Two clips per ammo drop would be amazing, for example.

 

Have you ever used a Paris? Clips would be an awful idea. As it is, I get more sniper ammo and would be even more limited by this idea. It should be similar to how it stands now or it should be dependent on the weapon.

 

Unlimited pistol ammo like suggested would be insane given some of the pistols because from my understanding some of those things are damn good even by standards of primaries.

[MJ12]

Unlimited pistol ammo like suggested would be insane given some of the pistols because from my understanding some of those things are damn good even by standards of primaries.

 

That's a problem with sidearm balance already even without infinite ammo (in that sidearms are, in may cases, better than primaries). If you had infinite ammo sidearms I don't see why you couldn't, say, go back to early Update 5 where the Furis did 9 damage a shot (instead of 14) and fired 7 shots a second (instead of 10), the Lex did 50 damage per shot, and so on.

 

Or hell, don't go with infinite ammo. Go with Unreal's Dispersion Pistol system, where sidearm ammo is infinite but not unlimited-you regenerate sidearm ammunition but don't have much of it. Say, 1 magazine plus 2-3 reloads, but you regenerate to full at... I don't know? Some% a second?

 

Ideally you'd have an ammo system which is interesting and also encourages fun gameplay but if you can't do that making a mechanic as unobnoxious as possible is the best thing.

Edited April 19, 2013 by MJ12

[auxy]

Have you ever used a Paris? Clips would be an awful idea. As it is, I get more sniper ammo and would be even more limited by this idea. It should be similar to how it stands now or it should be dependent on the weapon.

 

Unlimited pistol ammo like suggested would be insane given some of the pistols because from my understanding some of those things are damn good even by standards of primaries.

The paris is specifically why I suggested "one or two magazines, or four shots at a minimum". (╹◡╹) I think four shots per pickup -- with more common pickups, given pickup consolidation -- should be plenty, hmm?

[BlueCremeSoda]

That's a problem with sidearm balance already even without infinite ammo (in that sidearms are, in may cases, better than primaries). If you had infinite ammo sidearms I don't see why you couldn't, say, go back to early Update 5 where the Furis did 9 damage a shot (instead of 14) and fired 7 shots a second (instead of 10), the Lex did 50 damage per shot, and so on.

 

Or hell, don't go with infinite ammo. Go with Unreal's Dispersion Pistol system, where sidearm ammo is infinite but not unlimited-you regenerate sidearm ammunition but don't have much of it. Say, 1 magazine plus 2-3 reloads, but you regenerate to full at... I don't know? Some% a second?

 

Ideally you'd have an ammo system which is interesting and also encourages fun gameplay but if you can't do that making a mechanic as unobnoxious as possible is the best thing.

 

I don't really see a necessity for removing pistol ammo as a commodity though. We have a lethal melee solution if out of ammo. The only time that could foressably become an issue is during boss fights basically, wouldn't it? I don't know how you could tailor a solution during boss fights short of replenishing ammo in some way be it randomly dropping off the boss or around the room or regenerating it on the player or something. But I don't know. I enjoy the ammo being a commodity though, to a degree.  But then again, we have ammo boxes for a reason don't we?

[auxy]

I don't really see a necessity for removing pistol ammo as a commodity though. We have a lethal melee solution if out of ammo. The only time that could foressably become an issue is during boss fights basically, wouldn't it? I don't know how you could tailor a solution during boss fights short of replenishing ammo in some way be it randomly dropping off the boss or around the room or regenerating it on the player or something. But I don't know. I enjoy the ammo being a commodity though, to a degree.  But then again, we have ammo boxes for a reason don't we?

Same old rag: melee isn't always applicable or appropriate, some weapons run out of ammo after just a few kills, ammo boxes aren't a good long-term solution. (´Д⊂ヽ

[BlueCremeSoda]

The paris is specifically why I suggested "one or two magazines, or four shots at a minimum". (╹◡╹) I think four shots per pickup -- with more common pickups, given pickup consolidation -- should be plenty, hmm?

 

 

Still not sure about that. I'm not super familiar with it and don't have all the super mods but I really end up running low on ammo with mine quite easily due to the scarcity of the sniper ammo at times. If the drop rates were increased I could see it being helpful. I think having the current system with timed use ammo dumps could work well though, especially with bosses. Say they keep the same system but put in little ammo dumps where you could refill at least a good portion of your ammo, specifically in rooms with bosses. That'd be another way to handle it wouldn't it? Make it so that you can't use it every second but not so long that you are penalized per se.

 

I can't support the idea of unlimited ammo for any guns though. I can't quite explain why. It just doesn't feel right to me.

[fauxhb]

agh, i don't understand why do you feel the need for unlimited ammo. that's why you can buy a ammo box, it costs 500 credits and is super useful in boss fights.

and melee is more than appropriate in any game section excluding the bosses.

[auxy]

agh, i don't understand why do you feel the need for unlimited ammo. that's why you can buy a ammo box, it costs 500 credits and is super useful in boss fights.

and melee is more than appropriate in any game section excluding the bosses.

Fond of losing half your health to meleeing Toxic Ancients, are you? (´Д⊂ヽ

 

Ammo boxes are 1000 credits. I'm sure they are useful, but I have too many other things to spend my credits on.

 

Don't get too fixated on the idea of unlimited ammo. The point is that the current ammo system is broken, and warrants revision. Unlimited secondary ammo was just one idea that I proposed. Others have also proposed great ideas.

 

Still not sure about that. I'm not super familiar with it and don't have all the super mods but I really end up running low on ammo with mine quite easily due to the scarcity of the sniper ammo at times. If the drop rates were increased I could see it being helpful. I think having the current system with timed use ammo dumps could work well though, especially with bosses. Say they keep the same system but put in little ammo dumps where you could refill at least a good portion of your ammo, specifically in rooms with bosses. That'd be another way to handle it wouldn't it? Make it so that you can't use it every second but not so long that you are penalized per se.

PARIS is my "main" primary weapon, and I don't have too much trouble with ammo as long as I am careful to make every shot count. I do a lot of punching people with my FURAX too, so that probably helps. (╹◡╹) I'm definitely using more PARIS arrows now, since I'm trying to level up my AFURIS, and it's really exacerbated the problem, since I can't rely on my nearly-useless secondary for anything.

 

I also do a lot of exploring, so I'm still squeaking by on ammo most of the time. I'm just barely squeaking by, though...

Edited April 19, 2013 by auxy

[HexCaliber]

This thread has nothing to do with modern standards, and everything to do with the ops desire to see the game dumbed down to the point of banality.

 

The current ammo drop implementation is far and away the easiest way to code and to cater to co-op groups; it is quite possible to have users using completely different weapons. Coding the game so that each player only sees his own ammo type, ignoring the rest would frankly be redundant; it would also remove the possibility of team mates calling out ammo for other players. The current drop rate is perfectly fine, if anyone is having problems they need to stop spraying and praying everywhere, you are not supposed to run around with your mouse button taped down; carry ammo boxes if you really are that bad at the game.

 

Enemy count relates to difficulty and the size of the coop group, nothing more needs to be said about it

 

Neither are there issues with the current energy mechanic, you are not supposed to spam S#&$ constantly, the decision to use your abilities is a tactical choice, not a way to waltz through the level. If you want an energy battery run with a trinity, or ask everyone to use energy siphon. .

 

The current game economy incentivizes exploration, if you want cash to craft items or buy new gear, then you need to be checking every locker in the level, if you don't, it’s your own fault. I will go play solo, to do just that, and will search every corner of a map, while running a credit booster for just that reason. Would it be nice to have a few more secret areas, sure, but its a shooter not an mmo.

 

Frames do not need specific slots for energy mods. Your frame build is about compromise and sacrifice, making choices that have an impact on how you play. While you are at it, why not ask the devs to double the number of available slots, so we can just throw everything on there and have done with it

 

Frankly, none of your points are problems within the game; rather they are nothing more than personal preference and a desire to see the game dumbed down. You would have the developers remove any need for resource management, currently an important part of game play, one that forces players to pay attention to what they are doing.

 

The only point I would agree on is the need for polish to Warframe animations to sort out things like jumping, melee attacks, getting knocked down, etc.

 

Thank you for your post, but I have no interest in playing Warframe lite.

Edited April 19, 2013 by HexCaliber

[auxy]

┐(´∀｀)┌ﾔﾚﾔﾚ Edited April 19, 2013 by auxy

[krisp]

So if a person agrees with you then they're seeing the "truth of the matter", while people who disagree either misunderstand, are wrong or are "making anecdotes". I see how this goes.

 

krisp--

Most of your post comes off as pedantic nit-picking and argumentum ad hominem. For example, saying that I used the term "pay2win" wrong when you really misunderstood what I meant. (More on this later.) You also make a lot of obviously erroneous statements like saying that I am speaking about my "feelings" rather than mechanics, which is simply false.

 

The ammo system changes I have proposed are actually much simpler than what is in place now, both mechanically and technically. I don't know why you think they are complicated.

 

The melee soft lock-on wasn't actually even my idea, but one of my colleagues'. I do like the idea, but saying that I want it because I'm unskilled is a bit childish.

 

Thanks for continuing to post, however!

Feelings rather than mechanics? No, most of what you're giving is subjective opinion rather than logical rationale. All you can get out of that is either an "I agree" or an "I disagree". There's no constructive discussion to be had when you argue that something "doesn't feel right".

I explained and gave reasons for more or less all I argued. If you still "don't know why I think" something then it's not my problem.

 

In regards to your ideas of a "viable builds": homogenization of weapon combinations takes away depth and diminishes the impact of some loadout choices. I personally enjoy planning ahead. Tell me why I'm wrong.

 

And stop with the excessive politeness, I'm not posting to do you a personal service.

[HuggyBear27]

Improve core mechanics, remove pointless tedium and randomness. Got it.

I agree totally with OP's analysis if not all the actual proposed solutions.

+1 to cribbing from ME3. The multiplayer component was successful beyond anybody's expectations so they must have done something right.

[Xtorma]

After getting a machine pistol and killing things in a level 20ish alert with it at level 0,(and i am not talking about 3 clips to kill either) all I can say is infinite ammo on pistols would unbalance the game.