Anti Red Veil Thread. (Red Unveil)

[OniDax]

I was basing the comment on what you said about the "Tenno are emperors" in that post a while back. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say what the Arbiters were saying. Still, it seems to me that if the Tenno are to "surpass their former masters" there is a subtext of "emperorship" there. But we need just a touch of clarification from the source (DE).

I merely say that as an example of the greatness of the Tenno. The Tenno should not be a people struggling to survive or being hunted by others. We should not be forced to forever fight for our survival. We have greatness within us, waiting to be unlocked.

[SIDESTRE4M]

And the whole "no cost to great, no blood innocent" thing raises some big warning flags.

 

From what the followers are showing so far it's certainly not helping their claim that the Red Veil won't go off the deep end. If they haven't already. They may be claiming to fight the good fight but when it's all said and done, they don't see anyone in this war other than themselves as uncorrupted and the real heroes won't be sitting on their butts when the Red Veil show their true colours. 

 

I used to support the Veil but their claims that there are no innocent people have destroyed my respect for them. It's possible they're just in it for the violence and using a "Revolution" to cover it up and it's very odd when you've known The Red Veil post-solar war that they were essentially freedom fighters, heroes. But not anymore. They've become twisted somehow. Either that or Cantis tricked us. Their motto says it all.

 

A possible interpretation could be that they meant no cost too great from their soldiers and no blood innocent as "We don't spill the blood of civilians" but that belief is overwritten just by how "No Cost To Great" is imposed in front of the former. There's no way around it, it absolutely implies that these people are just blood knights through and through.

 

SO?

 

They are fanatical killers in the name of some ethical cleansing. This may be good or bad depending on your psyche/moral. :D

 

No choice is meant to be clearly black or white. Red Veil is somewhat darker grey than the others along with New Loka.

 

------------

 

I don't want to break the 4th wall here, but if people have a need to go along with some ingame philosophies which are made up to have some contradicting syndicates, they should go and see a doc.

Edited October 27, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[RadTulik]

It's "no blood to precious" - don't try to change the words to suit your agenda. To the Veil, everyone has a part of play - and no matter who you are in their standing you are NOT above laying down your life for the cause of purging corruption.

 

Then I'm mistaken, let me rebut

 

Are you trying to say that civilians, children, families are not above being forced into a war they have no control over? I'm not havin' any of that jack.

 

They may claim to be freedom fighters but like it or not they have some serious undertones of darker affairs in their words. I'll be waiting for the day they shove a gun into an inexperienced person's hands or pacifist and shove him/her out onto the battlefield because "They are not above laying down their lives" for their purge. 

 

Save it. Until I see that these 'revolutionaries' won't commit such acts, I won't see them as heroes. 

[Seffard]

Its probably Stalker's syndicate. I have joined them because of the coolest sigils and venom weapons mods. I dont care about the story. If I did, they would be my enemy too.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Seffard

[RiouHotaru]

I figured the reason Red Veil dislikes the Arbiters so much is the Arbiters preach discipline and calmness, while the Veil preaches drowning the system in a sea of the blood of their enemies.

 

Or that the Arbiters represent some sort of 'old' way of doing things.

[Morec0]

Then I'm mistaken, let me rebut

 

Are you trying to say that civilians, children, families are not above being forced into a war they have no control over? I'm not havin' any of that jack.

 

They may claim to be freedom fighters but like it or not they have some serious undertones of darker affairs in their words. I'll be waiting for the day they shove a gun into an inexperienced person's hands or pacifist and shove him/her out onto the battlefield because "They are not above laying down their lives" for their purge. 

 

Save it. Until I see that these 'revolutionaries' won't commit such acts, I won't see them as heroes. 

 

Would you rather those same people continue to suffer under the oppressive grasp of the Grineer and Corpus?

 

They must fight back, they must defend themselves, and if they cannot then there must be those who can defend them (I support Steel Meridian as well). The other Syndicates may have more beautiful sounding goals, but change - REAL CHANGE, the kind that will end the oppression the Grineer and Corpus force upon the people of the galaxy - can only come through the destruction of the oppressors.

 

It's as simple as that.

[Morec0]

I merely say that as an example of the greatness of the Tenno. The Tenno should not be a people struggling to survive or being hunted by others. We should not be forced to forever fight for our survival. We have greatness within us, waiting to be unlocked.

 

Yes. We should be free from suffering. But we are still warriors - our culture comes from our conflicts. To throw away that heritage of battle, like the Arbiters wish, is to deny who we are. It disgust me.

[OniDax]

Yes. We should be free from suffering. But we are still warriors - our culture comes from our conflicts. To throw away that heritage of battle, like the Arbiters wish, is to deny who we are. It disgust me.

 

That's like saying that people of African descent have the heritage of being slaves, and shouldn't throw that away. We were made to be warriors. It doesn't mean that this is our heritage. It is disgusting to say that something we were forced to do is our heritage, the same way it is disgusting to say that slavery is the heritage of blacks. I've been kinda joking, talking like an Arbiter would, but on a serious note I cannot agree with your statement, particularly because the Tenno didn't choose to be sent to the void. They didn't choose to be put in warframes. The codex indicates that.

Edited October 27, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Morec0]

That's like saying that people of African descent have the heritage of being slaves, and shouldn't throw that away. We were made to be warriors. It doesn't mean that this is our heritage. It is disgusting to say that something we were forced to do is our heritage, the same way it is disgusting to say that slavery is the heritage of blacks. I've been kinda joking, talking like an Arbiter would, but on a serious note I cannot agree with your statement, particularly because the Tenno didn't choose to be sent to the void. They didn't choose to be put in warframes. The codex indicates that.

 

Are you saying the Africans were made to be slaves? That's rather racist.

 

But yes, the Tenno were forced to become what we were, but LOOK what we have done with it since then! We have turned ourselves from Warrior Weapons into a Warrior People! We have built a civilization, a culture, from that identity and becomes STRONG for it. Your comparison to us as certain people are to a history of slavery falls apart because we took our history and made ourselves strong with it. We, our warrior ways, are subject to the will of NO ONE but ourselves - we proved that when we slaughtered the Orokin that made us.

 

There is nothing disgusting or wrong with that, because we have made it a pure expression of ourselves.

 

Not a label by others.

[Nyx.Sunspot]

Okay lol I don't know if this was already stated because there are 15 freaking pages of responses haha but I think everyone is jumping on the red veil as bad guys too quickly, "they see corruption all around them" doesn't necessarily mean that EVERYTHING is corruption to them, instead I think it is more literal than that, as in if there are 10 people in a room and 4 of them are corrupted and I can see that, then I still "see corruption all around me".. if anything the red veil reminds me of the brotherhood when it comes to assassins creed, yes they assassinate people, for the better of the world, they are evil rotten people that you assassinate. That being said I am leaving the Arbiters to joing the Red Veil

PIERCE THE VEIL !!

P.s. if anyone is "hitler" like I think it's New Loka seeing humans as a "superior race". If that is in fact how they see them. 

[OniDax]

Are you saying the Africans were made to be slaves? That's rather racist.

 

But yes, the Tenno were forced to become what we were, but LOOK what we have done with it since then! We have turned ourselves from Warrior Weapons into a Warrior People! We have built a civilization, a culture, from that identity and becomes STRONG for it. Your comparison to us as certain people are to a history of slavery falls apart because we took our history and made ourselves strong with it. We, our warrior ways, are subject to the will of NO ONE but ourselves - we proved that when we slaughtered the Orokin that made us.

 

There is nothing disgusting or wrong with that, because we have made it a pure expression of ourselves.

 

Not a label by others.

 

No, but Africans and non-Africans enslaved Africans. Just like the Orokin subjugated the Tenno as warriors (the Orokin are not the creators of the Tenno, but they sent them into the Void and made them warriors, just like slavers sent Africans - I'm African American myself - overseas and made them slaves). My only point is that we aren't defined by the things someone else makes us do or become. There is nothing wrong with the Arbiters wanting the Tenno to be something of their own choosing, and not what the Orokin dictated the Tenno to be.

[TankHunter678]

Would you rather those same people continue to suffer under the oppressive grasp of the Grineer and Corpus?

 

They must fight back, they must defend themselves, and if they cannot then there must be those who can defend them (I support Steel Meridian as well). The other Syndicates may have more beautiful sounding goals, but change - REAL CHANGE, the kind that will end the oppression the Grineer and Corpus force upon the people of the galaxy - can only come through the destruction of the oppressors.

 

It's as simple as that.

I support the Steel Meridian but I will be frank.

 

I hate the Red Veil.

 

They see "no cost is too great" if it means they can complete their objectives.

 

This means they would have absolutely no problem sacrificing Colonial and Meridian lives for the sake of their own agenda. The Red Veil are not committed to helping the innocent, unless they can be used like tools and disposed of like tools.

 

The Red Veil cross the line, and with how vague they are they would have no issues declaring their allies to be corrupt and murdering them too.

[Morec0]

No, but Africans and non-Africans enslaved Africans. Just like the Orokin subjugated the Tenno as warriors (the Orokin are not the creators of the Tenno, but they sent them into the Void and made them warriors, just like slavers sent Africans - I'm African American myself - overseas and made them slaves). My only point is that we aren't defined by the things someone else makes us do or become. There is nothing wrong with the Arbiters wanting the Tenno to be something of their own choosing, and not what the Orokin dictated the Tenno to be.

 

If I may suggest an alternative viewpoint:

 

The Orokin sent the children that would become Tenno into the Void to make them weapons, not warriors. They wanted to see what kind of tools they could get from such a place, and so preformed a little experiment. To them, we were no different than a sword or gun, but we changed ourselves in the war they sent us to fight in: we turned ourselves from weapons into warriors, from tools into a culture. We became so much more than the Orokin had planned for us to be, and in the end we took our revenge to cement that identity.

 

The point you're getting stuck on is that slaves cannot be equated to warriors perfectly. There is no honor in slavery, no glory, no good that can come from it. But there is so much that a warrior can become, so much that can define them. A slave is bound to the service of a master, to toil at their command, a warrior may be bound or to whatever he wishes or nothing at all. A warrior is a free man, a slave is not.

 

Weapon or warrior, what the Orokin made us into is irrelevant - we've finished that path, destroyed them and with their deaths ensured that we are forever the makers of our own destinies. We freed ourselves from the perceptions and titles of the Orokin. They may have taken our pasts, but they and no one else can take our futures. We make that ourselves, as warriors - something no "slave" can ever do.

 

 

I support the Steel Meridian but I will be frank.

 

I hate the Red Veil.

 

They see "no cost is too great" if it means they can complete their objectives.

 

This means they would have absolutely no problem sacrificing Colonial and Meridian lives for the sake of their own agenda. The Red Veil are not committed to helping the innocent, unless they can be used like tools and disposed of like tools.

 

The Red Veil cross the line, and with how vague they are they would have no issues declaring their allies to be corrupt and murdering them too.

 

You have a point, and a good point at that. I still see the Veil as one of the only two that are actually doing something to serve the end of suffering in the system - as good as the Meridian may be, they cannot do it alone. The Veil may have a darker side, but at least they do something to try and end oppression.

[Taranis49]

Weapons development is not a sign of oppression but is really a sign of freedom. Why do you think the United States of America has the Second Amendment? "The right to bear arms" Originally it was designed so the people can protect themselves due to lack of proper military, but as time went on it gained a new symbolic meaning when carrying weapons you give freedom, and by taking it away means enslavement. Disarming people is the best and most effectual way to enslave anyone. To allow ones life to be taken because one failed to defend it is wrong. The right to self-defense is a freedom. The Red Veil are not the Grineer or the Corpus they are a syndicate that was born to fight the grineer, corpus, and any form of corruption or tyrannical power that threatens to enslave, and oppress the solar system. In many ways they too uphold the ways of Hayden...

 

The 2nd amendment doesn't really help secure freedom, however (plenty of countries don't have an equivalent and aren't wallowing in oppression for it). Sad fact is, dudes with AR-15's can't meaningfully defend themselves against a competent government military with tanks, aircraft, or artillery which is willing to use them; it's a security blanket - the state's always had a monopoly on force (notable fact, private ownership of artillery was illegal in America even during the Revolutionary period). Beyond that...

 

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

 

This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

 

I merely say that as an example of the greatness of the Tenno. The Tenno should not be a people struggling to survive or being hunted by others. We should not be forced to forever fight for our survival. We have greatness within us, waiting to be unlocked.

 

The problem is, the Tenno as a people evidently have no real future, note that you don't see any Tenno kids. There's no new ones being produced or born. All of the Tenno alive now date back to the Orokin era - Tenno are a terminal people; the current generation of Tenno is also the last generation. That's not a foundation you can really build on.

 

As noted, all of the Syndicates' idealogies have pretty big flaws.

[BerelHawdos]

You're just jealous because we have the coolest looking sigils...

[Monybags33]

I remember the days when Tenno first heard about The Red Veil and they were only being kidnapped and killed with the new rescue mission update that Warframe gave us, and in return for saving them we got a Syandana that was red and black resembling butterfly wings....

 

They were not that Terrifying and evil as they are now wanting too cleanse the whole dam system finding it "Impure", maybe their was a reason why people were capturing them and killing them in the first place?

 

Either that or someone got a serious stalker upgrade since the last time we meet them.

[anomagnus]

The veil are unashamed sociopaths. The embody the term 'the cure is worse than the disease'. Who defines what is or is not corrupt? The veil. And who carries out the judgement? The veil. Their name itself hints at something hidden.

Only new Loka and the Perrin syndicate even mention peace

[OniDax]

 

The 2nd amendment doesn't really help secure freedom, however (plenty of countries don't have an equivalent and aren't wallowing in oppression for it). Sad fact is, dudes with AR-15's can't meaningfully defend themselves against a competent government military with tanks, aircraft, or artillery which is willing to use them; it's a security blanket - the state's always had a monopoly on force (notable fact, private ownership of artillery was illegal in America even during the Revolutionary period). Beyond that...

 

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

 

This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

 

 

The problem is, the Tenno as a people evidently have no real future, note that you don't see any Tenno kids. There's no new ones being produced or born. All of the Tenno alive now date back to the Orokin era - Tenno are a terminal people; the current generation of Tenno is also the last generation. That's not a foundation you can really build on.

 

As noted, all of the Syndicates' idealogies have pretty big flaws.

 

 

Well maybe that's why the Arbiters want more for the Tenno than just being warriors.

[OniDax]

 

The 2nd amendment doesn't really help secure freedom, however (plenty of countries don't have an equivalent and aren't wallowing in oppression for it). Sad fact is, dudes with AR-15's can't meaningfully defend themselves against a competent government military with tanks, aircraft, or artillery which is willing to use them; it's a security blanket - the state's always had a monopoly on force (notable fact, private ownership of artillery was illegal in America even during the Revolutionary period). Beyond that...

 

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

 

This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

 

 

The problem is, the Tenno as a people evidently have no real future, note that you don't see any Tenno kids. There's no new ones being produced or born. All of the Tenno alive now date back to the Orokin era - Tenno are a terminal people; the current generation of Tenno is also the last generation. That's not a foundation you can really build on.

 

As noted, all of the Syndicates' idealogies have pretty big flaws.

 

 

Unfortunately, the idea that if nations like the US stop spending on military needs, then there will be peace, is a false one. Because there are plenty who are willing to continue in war, and they aren't superpowers or western nations. Just like the 2nd Amendment isn't the cause of war. While, no, the spending on military hardware isn't bringing freedom, it also isn't the cause of oppression.

[JohnProdman]

Naturally I'm going to disapprove of Red Veil as the Warlord of The Perrin Sequence. (Yes, I stole the name.)

[Taranis49]

Well maybe that's why the Arbiters want more for the Tenno than just being warriors.

 

Problem being they talk about "potential", that refers to a future that the Tenno, by their nature, can never actually have. There's no new generation to pass anything off to.

 

Unfortunately, the idea that if nations like the US stop spending on military needs, then there will be peace, is a false one. Because there are plenty who are willing to continue in war, and they aren't superpowers or western nations. Just like the 2nd Amendment isn't the cause of war. While, no, the spending on military hardware isn't bringing freedom, it also isn't the cause of oppression.

 

I didn't say otherwise.

[ElHefe]

I merely say that as an example of the greatness of the Tenno. The Tenno should not be a people struggling to survive or being hunted by others. We should not be forced to forever fight for our survival. We have greatness within us, waiting to be unlocked.

 

This reminds me of a very famous saying (my paraphrasing) ...

 

"If you want to change the world, change yourself (first)"

          ~ Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869 - 1948)

 

The Hexis apparently follow a very rich tradition of reflection and unsurpassed uniqueness ...

 

"You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it"

          ~ Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

 

And here is a bit of imagined in-game commentary ...

 

"Follow your inner light Tenno ... you are enjoined to follow with us"

          ~ The Oracle of Hexis (c 1 - 2200 AOE)

 

[AOE = "Ante Orokin Era]

[Kage_ZX]

The red vail has my blade.

[PerishedFraud]

Vail lol.

[Shizsno]

Fail the veil