How Are Non-Cb Players Expected To Max 10 Level Mods?

[PhantomWay]

For mods such as Serration, Hornet strike, Vitality, and Redirection - players that didn't have 20 pages of rare fusion cores from CB will find themselves more or less unable to a single mod of this type even to level 8 or 9.  

 

As a rough and approximate example:

 

Fusing Serration with Serration rank/amount (assuming the amount need doubles each time which seems to be a good approximation)

 

Rank 0 = 0

Rank 1 = 1

Rank 2 = 3

Rank 3 = 6

Rank 4 = 12

Rank 5 = 24

Rank 6 = 48

Rank 7 = 96

Rank 8= 192

Rank 9= 384

rank 10= 768

 

From Rank 0-6 it takes 94 duplicate fusions.  At 600 per fuse that's 56,400 credits.  

 

Rank 6-7 - 96 fusions, 57600 credits  The diminishing return is from this point is the problem for newer players.

 

Rank 7-8 - 192 fusions, 115,200 credits

 

Rank 8-9 -  384 fusions, 230,400 credits

 

Rank 9-10 -768 fusions, 460, 800 credits

 

Total cost for  a max Serration:  1,534 Serration mods to fuse, 920,400 credits.

 

 

 

Again, this is just a simple approximation but no matter how you look at it - without having tons of rare 10 fusion cores laying around you won't be able to get these mods leveled past a certain point.

 

How do we fix this? Maybe adjust the curve for diminishing returns? Cap the amount of fusions it takes per level once you get to level? Or the easiest solution: take the 10 levels down to 5 or 6 and re- scale the % increases per level. 

 

Balancing around people that have hundreds of mods from CB laying around probably isn't the best way to go here.

 

Yes, those number are big. But I think you just did some error on the tabel (maybe)

 

Rank 0 = 0

Rank 1 = 1

Rank 2 = 2

Rank 3 = 4

Rank 4 = 8

Rank 5 = 16 (not so sure, but)

 

I think that duplicate double their price for rank up. (or their power got halved after each use)

So.

 

Rank 6 = 32

Rank 7 = 64

Rank 8= 128

Rank 9= 256

rank 10= 512

Still a great number... 1024 serration... for Rank 10...

 

BTW I'm stuck (fine for now) at Rank 5 (and no, I haven't find that many serration, just used some low rank fusion core).

Edited April 22, 2013 by PhantomWay

[MINDOVERFATE]

I am playing since ~2-3 weeks and I have a shield mod on lvl 8 by now.

 

I think it is okay. In 1-2 months it will be lvl 10

 

Perfect example. And how many fusion cores did you use to get that?

[f3llyn]

Perfect example. And how many fusion cores did you use to get that?

 

Yeah..perfect example of some one who is playing patiently and doesn't expect to max things out in a day.

 

It's fine as is. I'm not sure why you'd ever need a maxed out shield mod.

[MINDOVERFATE]

Yeah..perfect example of some one who is playing patiently and doesn't expect to max things out in a day.

 

It's fine as is. I'm not sure why you'd ever need a maxed out shield mod.

 

Then take it out of the game.

[Mak_Gohae]

slowly.

[fauxhb]

i agree, +base dmg is basic skill, it should not at least be uncommon. HOW IN THE WORLD IS IT UNCOMMON, it's the most basic damage bonus you can think of.

then, maybe then, you'd be able to collect 1k serrations. i think i reached +105 damage bonus on mine, but hell, it wasn't pretty.

[Kitzun]

Still a great number... 1024 serration... for Rank 10...

You never do that, you don't use unco for fusion beyond level 5 at most, and you never use rares for fusion purpose at all, unless you nolife on the game, farming all day.

Fusion cores are here for that.

[Zyphre]

You know, I think my point got lost in the mix here.  I'm fine with it being difficult and achievable.  The thing is - I'm certain this was done to give people a place to spend their hundreds of fusion cores from closed beta after they switched systems. If you were one of those people, this progression would be somewhat non issue as you had a way to obtain the required currency. 

 

This isn't a matter of what the mod is or what it does. 

 

The investment cost  is broken and does not fit within the rest of the system as it is. If you want to argue that it's acceptable and additional levels aren't needed, that's your opinion and that's ok. But  - in that same light might as well just cut the top five levels off the mods and call it good then right?  

[Kitzun]

You will get it in time, it's a farm game after all.

Closed beta testers only get a better start, but it won't do much for them in the long run.

[Cakes]

A lot of players made the transition into U7 with excessive credits and fusion cores from their playtime in Closed Beta. A significant number of them also spent those credits and cores on fusion costs which both costed a lot more and granted significantly less fusion values than what we enjoy now.

 

You do not need to go past Rank 5 in any of the few mods that actually get to Rank 10 in order to be capable of soloing the hardest missions, including defense missions if you use specific warframe/weapon loadouts. Shooting for Rank 10 in the game's current state takes dedication for a mod improvement that boils down to win-more.

 

Notice how elemental mods do not go up past Rank 5. The mod improving your base damage stacks onto these mods, therefore making it take a lot of investment to improve a mod that improves all your damage mods sits better with me than nerfing the commitment needed.

 

Oh, but Cakes, you're a CB player that probably dumped all their fusion cores to max out those mods that get to Rank 10. Hah... sorry, I'm a hardcore member of the duplicate-upgrade camp. And even by doing so I've managed to get more than a few mods past Rank 5 and stopped there despite having more than enough duplicates to keep going. Being forced to use a mod at its max rank serves as a detriment at that point.

 

Fusion cores pile up real fast when you only use duplicates. Duplicates also pile up really fast when upgrading the ones you use would overshoot your weapon's mod points... and also when you just don't want to deal with the headache your inventory has become.

tl;dr

Time it takes to get your mods to a reasonable rank to tackle harder missions isn't ridiculous. Time it takes to get your mods to Rank 10 to achieve demi-god mode is. Want to cut off the top 5 ranks of those rank 10 mods? Fine, but you're not going to like it when DE keeps the bonus damage values the same because players can comfortably complete the content on solo with Rank 5 mods. Suddenly you're left with a lowered ceiling for potential, how droll.

[neKroMancer]

I don't expect to max lv10 mods in any forseeable future. They eat too much mod capacity and limit other mods you can use even when you put max mod into a polarity slot.

They're there for customization, maxing it is just for players who want to do so and .... I don't know, boast that they have max mods?

[MIKUiqnw0]

Stop trying to be cute with reinterpreted semantics. Health and shields as well as base damage are core skills, period. In a normal RPG-based progression that this game takes its cues from, they'd be the ones you'd be putting points into with every level-up, either strength or endurance or whatever. Just because the modding system is an alteration of that doesn't change that fact, and neither does the passive boost. I don't think YOU know what "core skill" means. Mods are the only way for a player to increase their core skills through progression. You can play naked and mod-less if you want, but I'd like the ability to effectively build my character.

I don't know what dumb RPGs you've been playing, but strength, endurance, health - they're called attributes, not skills.

Yes, mods that are essentially passive are correct to be called skills since they boost attributes indirectly (you can stop calling them skills now, stop confusing people), but whether they're core depends on the frame. A support frame such as Trinity can forgo maximum shields, armor and power and go for maximum health and power efficiency, though she can just as well do the opposite with the exception of streamline, as the link + vampire combination depends of the reduction from streamline. You could say Link, Energy Vampire and Streamline are her bread and butter / core mods.

 

Once you mash a potato though, it doesn't really matter whats core anymore to be honest. You can probably fit it anyway.

[DataShade]

HOW ARE NON-CB PLAYERS EXPECTED TO MAX 10 LEVEL MODS?

 

 

Same way I think CB players did ... slowly.  Did you expect to max out every inch of this game in a few hours?

[Renan.Ruivo]

I don't think I know a single person from CB who has gotten that high. However, it's not like you even need to.

 

I got Hornet Strike up to rank 5. 9 energy cost, 120% boost to pistol damage. Uncommon. Spent a good number of fusion cores that i got from the MOD 1.0 > 2.0 migration.

 

At Rank 5 with Twin Vipers, Lato Vandal, Aklatos, Akbolto and Bronco (especially akbolto and bronco) 120% packs a wallop. The Twin Vipers can kill a Rank 30 ancient healer (the one with more XP) with 2 clips in under 5 seconds.

 

 

But the OP post is actually quite true. Ranking up mods already have a good enough sink in the form of credits. Non-CB players don't need the added challenge of having to fuse their mods with other mods of different pollarity or a rare (and by rare i mean common) fusion core drop.

[Skreshavik]

Well, why would anyone want to go that high anyway?  Aside from burning credits.

Maximum DPS :D

[Damonvile]

I don't see what the big deal about maxing a mod is. I've killed every boss and got almost every zone clear and I don't have a single mod maxed ( beyond some of the easy ones ). All there is to do is unlock frames and search for mods....I'd rather not have that finished tomorrow. If it was what's left to do here ?

 

I guess get bored and go play one of these other games some of you seem to think you can't learn anything from ?

[Braken]

I just hope they condense the 10 level mods to 5 levels.

 

Also, we need a way to actually use maxed mods. It's REALLY stupid that you are actually DISSUADED from maxing mods.

[Zyphre]

 

 

But the OP post is actually quite true. Ranking up mods already have a good enough sink in the form of credits. Non-CB players don't need the added challenge of having to fuse their mods with other mods of different pollarity or a rare (and by rare i mean common) fusion core drop.

 

Thank you for understanding my point. 

[Anelyn]

Simple, by farming? Credits and Mods.

 

You don't have to fuse ONLY duplicates and fusion cores. You can fuse same polarity as well. The only difference is the price in credits you will pay. They are not meant to be achieved easily either.

 

You don't HAVE to have them at max rank either. They are very good from rank 4 upwards (aka significant boost to shield and HP). But if you DO WANT to max them (at expense of other mods obviously), you have this option. NOBODY said it will be easy / cheap. Is something you STRIVE for :)

[Okiesmokie]

it shouldn't take a lifetime to max out.

 

And why not exactly?  It's a thing that adds longevity and playability to the game.  What would you do if you were able to max out every mod within 10 minutes of starting the game?  Probably nothing.

[Trokks]

The diminishing returns on fusion is ridiculous at the upper levels, and does need an adjustment.  I find my self running out of mods, and cash very quick.  The way the cash system is now, and the mod drop rates on defenses makes up for this a bit...but it still needs some adjustments so we can finally finish adjusting our favorite weapon we keep on while leveling other low level ones so we don't die. 

 

We have to level frames and weapons to bring our mastery level up, and we use a ton of mods on a lot of different weapons too....so adjusting this will make it much more possible to gear for battling different type of MoBs as well.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Trokks

[JerryMouse13]

The game was not made so that everything is attainable within a month's worth of playtime. The difference between a rank 8 mod and a rank 10 mod in terms of gameplay value is so small as to be non existant, you do not need a maxed out serration/hornet strike/what have you. Rank 10 mods exist almost solely to give dedicated players something to continually strive for, as well as rewarding those who have sunk copious amounts of time and effort into the game by making them that extra bit better.

 

This is pretty much a staple of the dungeon crawler genre. The very best gear always takes ridiculous amounts of time to farm, and/or craft.

[krisp]

It's fine, you don't need them. My guns are overpowered for the current content and I have only one mod past rank 5 (it's rank 6). So chill out.

 

Fusion cores will be dropping more often in the future, as well as possibly be on the reward pool for alert missions. You're supposed to use them to upgrade to rank 6+.

[Eric1738]

the thing is u dont need to max them. in the world of warframe, u have only limited capacity, but there are many useful mods u want to put in. according to ur weapon choices and playstyle(and enemies of course), there is an optimized mod build, with a calculation u will find that +damage mod like serration is optimized at around lvl 6-8, whihc is achievable

[JHarlequin]

 This may be hard to prove but it does seem that cores are better for fusions at higher levels then duplicate cards.

 

 At low levels cards give a great amount of fusion for the cost, but at higher levels, around rank 5 and 6, it becomes a bit less efficient to use duplicates then it does fusion cores.

 

 The only thing that has made me consider this so far was when working with a redirection recently.  I had used several rare cores to rank it from 6 to 7 and had compared the value to what it would have taken with some redirection mods.  I noticed that the rares were giving a bit more then 2 mods.  At rank 7 when I did a similar comparison, the same level rare cores seemed like they would have given more then 3 cards worth of fusion.

 

 Perhaps while cards give a better amount of fusion energy at low levels, those benefits burn out at higher levels while the cores always give the same amount of energy.  It would take someone doing a full review and comparison, but it might be important to use cores when you are doing the higher levels of fusion.

 

 As well as, like many other people have said.  You don't need max cards, and even on supercharged frames and weapons, you probably will run out of energy before slots if you use maxed out cards.  Figure out what you really need and make sure you get enough value out of those mods before you max out any cards.

Edited April 22, 2013 by JHarlequin