Limbo Feedback By Einde : The Perfect Exemple Of Good Ideas Spoiled By A Bad Design.

[Ghooze]

 

So, the staff is thinking about a way to fuse banish and rift walk together ! I guess it's pretty well started. :)

cant say i like the fusing part

[LascarCapable]

Ding ! New hotfix, new change !

 

Tweaked the Banish cast animation and increased casting speeds.

 

It's coming slowly.

[izzatuw]

Ding ! New hotfix, new change !

 

 

It's coming slowly.

Dang you're fast. Think Rift Walk animation needs to be faster as well. Catacacylsm, nah

[s7n7a7k7e]

If they fuse Banish and Rift Walk together where I can't enter the Void "alone" to avoid damage it will pretty much kill Limbo for me all together. Rift Walk is probably my most used ability of the four.

[LascarCapable]

If they fuse Banish and Rift Walk together where I can't enter the Void "alone" to avoid damage it will pretty much kill Limbo for me all together. Rift Walk is probably my most used ability of the four.

 

Not if it's done properly. :p

 

Imagine if Banish would be a free targeting AoE skill. You just have to aim at your feets and poof ! You're in the rift !

[s7n7a7k7e]

Not if it's done properly. :p

 

Imagine if Banish would be a free targeting AoE skill. You just have to aim at your feets and poof ! You're in the rift !

 

I'd prefer to not have to look down and cast it on my feet to enter the Rift alone. If anything Make Banish open a portal that can suck enemies into the void if they are hit with Banish, but if no enemy is targeted the portal would open in front of Limbo so Limbo can walk through it into the Void alone.

[Ghooze]

Not if it's done properly. :p

 

Imagine if Banish would be a free targeting AoE skill. You just have to aim at your feets and poof ! You're in the rift !

and how do you get out?  

by entering the portal aggain?

can i recast it in another place?

if not, how the heck do i get out without walking back to the portal all the way?

if i can recast it, how do other players get out of it without me beeing tempted to just recast it somewhere else when i see them walking towards it?

 

seriously, the more i think about it, the more i think that fusing it is a massive downgrade. id rather have them just remove the banish ability on players alltogether

[s7n7a7k7e]

and how do you get out?  

by entering the portal aggain?

can i recast it in another place?

if not, how the heck do i get out without walking back to the portal all the way?

if i can recast it, how do other players get out of it without me beeing tempted to just recast it somewhere else when i see them walking towards it?

 

seriously, the more i think about it, the more i think that fusing it is a massive downgrade. id rather have them just remove the banish ability on players alltogether

 

and how do you get out?  

by entering the portal aggain?

can i recast it in another place?

if not, how the heck do i get out without walking back to the portal all the way?

if i can recast it, how do other players get out of it without me beeing tempted to just recast it somewhere else when i see them walking towards it?

 

seriously, the more i think about it, the more i think that fusing it is a massive downgrade. id rather have them just remove the banish ability on players alltogether

 

This is why I prefer they not fuse the two abilties together. But yeah as for the portal to leave simply exit through the same portal you entered through. The portal should remain as long as there are entities within it. Or through another portal cated on the next enemies. I rarely cast only one Banish. I cast Banish on an enemy and then enter it to kill the enemy, and then pull the next enemy or enemies into it with more Banish casts. This would create several exits for other players to leave the void. Plus at least with a portal it would be other players' choice to enter the void, instead of being to be casted into the void involuntarily. Banish in my opinion should not be able to send other players into the void without the other player wishing to enter it.

 

As for walking all the way back to a portal, Banish in its current state does have a time limit. Even when enemies are casted into the void, they do not remain there forever. Trust me I wish it could, lol. But yeah, when Banish expires all enemies within it are put back into play like normal. Even Rift Walk has a time limit. I can't cast Rift Walk and just stay in the void hiding from enemy fire until my energy runs out. Rift Walk expires after a certain amount of seconds just like his other abilities, requiring me to recast it in order to enter the void again. The amount of time I can stay in the Void usually lasts long enough for me to run to another player and revive them without dying from enemy fire. It usually expires by the time the other player is revived. With that said, if another player was in the void and had to run to the portal to exit there is no reason it should be far from the player. Banish would expire on it's own before you put any distance between you and the portal. Unless of coarse you were just sprinting and not in battle which would defeat the purpose of entering the void in the first place. Entering the void would be a means of avoiding fire from overwhelming enemies while waiting for shields to renegerate before jumping back out to fight, or to enter the void and kill tough enemies that were singled out by Limbo into the void for quick and safe kills.

[ndantony]

and how do you get out?  

by entering the portal aggain?

can i recast it in another place?

if not, how the heck do i get out without walking back to the portal all the way?

if i can recast it, how do other players get out of it without me beeing tempted to just recast it somewhere else when i see them walking towards it?

 

seriously, the more i think about it, the more i think that fusing it is a massive downgrade. id rather have them just remove the banish ability on players alltogether

...I think you have just completely missed the point made by Einde's

[s7n7a7k7e]

...I think you have just completely missed the point made by Einde's

 

How so? I answered all the questions he brought up. Simply debating the issue of the devs plans to merge Banish and Rift Walk. I'm not the only one on this forum brainstorming ideas on this topic if you haven't noticed.

 

Me personally, my g/f got me Plat for Limbo. I hate to see that go to waste by the devs ruining Limbo because of people crying nerf on Banish. Banishing teammates is still helpful if used when players want their @$$ saved. The problem comes from trolls using it to banish players for fun. I simply gave an idea that would give players a choice if they want to enter the void or not. Instead of Limbo players deciding who to banish.

[ndantony]

How so? I answered all the questions he brought up. Simply debating the issue of the devs plans to merge Banish and Rift Walk. I'm not the only one on this forum brainstorming ideas on this topic if you haven't noticed.

 

Me personally, my g/f got me Plat for Limbo. I hate to see that go to waste by the devs ruining Limbo because of people crying nerf on Banish. Banishing teammates is still helpful if used when players want their @$$ saved. The problem comes from trolls using it to banish players for fun. I simply gave an idea that would give players a choice if theyh want to enter the void or not. Instead of Limbo players deciding who to banish.

That's why I said you've missed the point completely. This is not about nerfing... in fact, arguably, it's the opposite. Einde and many of us asking and providing feedback how useless and weak some of the abilities that Limbo has. Combining the abilities is just one of the options that we can best hope for. And of course another ability will be created in the process as well. Did you read and understand the OP and many of the ideas we put forward to propose making Limbo abilities more useful and stronger?!

[s7n7a7k7e]

That's why I said you've missed the point completely. This is not about nerfing... in fact, arguably, it's the opposite. Einde and many of us asking and providing feedback how useless and weak some of the abilities that Limbo has. Combining the abilities is just one of the options that we can best hope for. And of course another ability will be created in the process as well. Did you read and understand the OP and many of the ideas we put forward to propose making Limbo abilities more useful and stronger?!

 

Yes I read it, as I even disagreed more than once with the idea of combining both of those abilities. I can also disagree without needing exclamation marks and memes. We're all mature people here right? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not the only person who stated that they feel merging those two abilities is a mistake. And no it isn't a call for a nerf out right, but a change that affects one player in a good way, may not be good for another. The idea is to try to find a way to keep everyone happy and not just one side. Trust me I would love for Limbos abilities to be stronger. I just disagree with that particular merge idea.

Edited October 29, 2014 by s7n7a7k7e

[GideonG]

I'm starting to think that just changing the way Banish works, and merging Rift Surge and Rift Walk into a single still might be the best idea. Limbo just gains a passive damage increase (or whatever they decide to do with Rift Surge) and it removes the need to cast three skills in succession to get to the desired goal.

 

I DO see why merging Banish and Rift Walk into one skill may be undesirable or lead to more gimmicky mechanics than necessary. However, I still think having three skills to accomplish the same task is a problem. Keeping Banish, Rift Walk, and Cataclysm still leads to three skills all doing the same basic thing, but in different "sizes".

 

Adding an AoE component to Banish just makes it a better Cataclysm. So I don't think that's a solution, either.

Edited October 29, 2014 by GideonG

[s7n7a7k7e]

As long as I can still enter and leave the void at will via Rift Walk without needing to pull an enemy with me I'm fine. Rift Surge should definitely be a passive along with being buffed entirely. If anything Banish and Rift Surge should be merged.

Edited October 29, 2014 by s7n7a7k7e

[LukeAura]

Adding an AoE component to Banish just makes it a better Cataclysm. So I don't think that's a solution, either.

Cataclysm would cover a lot more area, and be capable of protecting cryopods where Banish would not, and if I understand how the banish portal would work being a one time trip out, Cataclysm would be an infinite use 'portal' in to and out of the rifts effects for its entire duration.   

It wouldn't always be better though, just situationaly, which is probably a good thing. 

[GideonG]

Cataclysm would cover a lot more area, and be capable of protecting cryopods where Banish would not, and if I understand how the banish portal would work being a one time trip out, Cataclysm would be an infinite use 'portal' in to and out of the rifts effects for its entire duration.   

It wouldn't always be better though, just situationaly, which is probably a good thing. 

 

I'm talking about whats in the game mechanics now. Adding an AoE component to Banish would make it better than Cataclysm. Cataclysm doesn't really protect the pod, IMO, well enough to warrant over Snow Globe. Banish AoE would allow you to protect the cryopod far better than Cataclysm would given current mechanics. Right now, all Cataclysm serves for is AoE energy regen for the team while still allowing them to fight enemies inside the bubble (+range) or limited cryopod protection (+duration -range) from ranged enemies outside the bubble (none from melee). Banish serves as a way to remove enemies from the fight and prevent them from damaging allies and the cryopod completely.

 

It would essentially give him two abilites that were almost identical. Which contributes more to the problem he has already.

Edited October 29, 2014 by GideonG

[LukeAura]

It would essentially give him two abilites that were almost identical. Which contributes more to the problem he has already.

I'd disagree on the pod defense, and it's part of Limbo's kit so it doesn't really compare to a snowglobe in the same way it can be compared to banish. 

Banish would hit, maybe 5 targets at best in a favourable cluster, but more likely only two or three. 

It won't by any measure defend a pod on its own compared to negating all damage in an area. 

[GideonG]

It won't by any measure defend a pod on its own compared to negating all damage in an area. 

 

Thats not what Cataclysm does.

 

All Cataclysm does is say "things that are in this area, can only fight other things in this area" and gives allies increased energy regeneration while they're inside of it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by GideonG

[Ghooze]

...I think you have just completely missed the point made by Einde's

that may be but i honestly dont get where i missed it.

so if tell me what i got wrong id be happy (and a bit whiser hopefully) :)

[LascarCapable]

As long as I can still enter and leave the void at will via Rift Walk without needing to pull an enemy with me I'm fine. Rift Surge should definitely be a passive along with being buffed entirely. If anything Banish and Rift Surge should be merged.

 

In that case make it a passive for all ennemies in the rift, including those inside cataclysm. You had a really good idea here.

 

About the unbanishing thing : actually, a recent hotfix made Limbo able to remove targets from the rift just by casting banish once again. It would be the same thing if our banish became an AoE skill. And in order to not make the banishing too costly, we can still tweak the energy cost. Merging Banish and Rift Walk, and making Rift Surge a permanent passive for all enemies in the rift could allow the developpement team to give us two new skills, with hopefully some new ways to increase Limbo's usefulness in a team.

 

Anyway, now it's up to the devs to bring us an intelligent system that would be both able to limit trolling while buffing Limbo. Let's just trust them. They need a bit of trust.

[ndantony]

As long as I can still enter and leave the void at will via Rift Walk without needing to pull an enemy with me I'm fine. Rift Surge should definitely be a passive along with being buffed entirely. If anything Banish and Rift Surge should be merged.

...not sure if I should be confused or lol, looking at your previous response against combining abilities. Here, you've just proposed another good idea for combining the abilities.

[s7n7a7k7e]

In that case make it a passive for all ennemies in the rift, including those inside cataclysm. You had a really good idea here.

 

About the unbanishing thing : actually, a recent hotfix made Limbo able to remove targets from the rift just by casting banish once again. It would be the same thing if our banish became an AoE skill. And in order to not make the banishing too costly, we can still tweak the energy cost. Merging Banish and Rift Walk, and making Rift Surge a permanent passive for all enemies in the rift could allow the developpement team to give us two new skills, with hopefully some new ways to increase Limbo's usefulness in a team.

 

Anyway, now it's up to the devs to bring us an intelligent system that would be both able to limit trolling while buffing Limbo. Let's just trust them. They need a bit of trust.

 

Tweaking the energy cost of Banish would be great. The energy cost of having to cast Banish several times to manage a small group of enemies is what keeps me from using the skill as often as I would like to.

 

Rift Walk though I find to be the most useful skill while playing Limbo. I mostly play COOP with my g/f and daughter, so the three of us have clear communication while we play together. This makes Limbo much easier to use, and is why I don't experience a lot of the problems others are having with the trolling issue people are having. When playing Limbo, I use Rift Walk in several ways to help our group:

     • I use it to draw enemy fire away from them if the situation calls for it by entering the Void and getting the enemies outside the Void attention of me.

     • I duck into the Void if my shield drops too low, and allow my shield to replenish before leaving the Void.

     • If they are down, I can revive them or hack security panels while in the safety of the Void.

     • When in the Void, I pull enemies into the Void one at a time to kill them.

     • On missions where running past several enemies is necessary, I use Rift Walk the same way I use Ash's Smoke Screen to get to extractions, or chase down Capture mode targets, or run for the next Life Support module.

 

Rift Walk is a very useful skill. More useful than Banish or Rift Surge, IMO. Especially when used to support our COOP team. It's the one ability I feel the devs got right with Limbo. While I do feel Limbo definitely needs changes to make what doesn't work for it, I would hate to see what "does" indeed work become collateral damage in the process. And yeah I hate to say it, but when you pay real money for an in-game item whether a warframe or a weapon, etc, you get cautious of big changes to what you just purchased. When bad changes happen to something you opened your wallet for it makes you hesitant the next time around. Which is why I am really sweating about the Rift Walk ability. The other three abilities can change, particularly Rift Surge which I feel is the most worthless of the bunch. It's the "one too many" situation because Rift Surge is only useful if you cast Banish, and then Rift Walk and thennnnn Rift Surge, which becomes the third wheel at that point. Banish and Rift Walk can be cast back to back without a huge energy cost unless trying to banish several targets back to back. But the Rift Surge buff is not energy efficient in the way it needs to be used currently.

[Vashramire]

One of my beefs with Rift Walk is that it still allows collision with players and enemies not in the Rift. In tiny ship corridors with infested, I've been pinned to the ceiling or walls with the swarm so when I pop out I die. Too many to Banish 1 by 1 and a Cataclysm will net you dead albeit with doing some damage. Aside from that it is in near perfect balance. Banish I still think really doesn't need to work on teammates. I've never been in a situation, pug or premade, where I really feel I've saved anyone. Only useful thing is Banishing everyone for a sprint to extraction, which is an attempt to ignore parts of gameplay which I don't think is healthy for the game. AoE it definitely needs, fusing with Rift Walk we'll have to see if it can deliver on giving us what we want out of both skills only in 1 which I think is a big order. Cataclysm I want to like but it ends up being Snow Globes older mentally challenged brother. The concept alone of a Rift opening is cool, but execution is a bit off. It's a Rift that works both ways but doesn't affect other physical objects like bullets? So people and their clothes and equipment can go in but as soon as a bullet hits it the Rift just decides to not let it phase? If anything that sounds like if people should be able to cross, gunfire should too. Then that starts sounding more like a Rift Surge ability. Pop a dome where enemies take increased damage and deal reduced amounts. Boom fun mechanic! Then they give us a new 4 that I'm sure someone in this thread has a good idea for but I don't feel like retyping every Idea I've ever had for him over again.

[LukeAura]

All Cataclysm does is say "things that are in this area, can only fight other things in this area" and gives allies increased energy regeneration while they're inside of it.

And if all things are outside that area, then all their damage is negated to the thing inside the rift. More so that is a semantic denial of my statement, my wording was poor, but my statement still stands. It will still protect a pod a lot better than banishing a few targets at a time. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't mind Cataclysm changing as well. It just feels a little....safe for something called Cataclysm and for Limbo who apparently was some kind of rift ripping daredevil who rifted himself to death. Some kind of magicy/castery hysteria would be interesting and a little more fitting, I'd have no idea how that would work out though. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by LukeAura

[Gizogin]

Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely love Limbo.  He’s an utterly unique Frame with completely new ways of interacting with enemies, and his control of the battlefield is difficult to match.  That said, I definitely think there’s room for improvement.  As a team player, he’s very hard to get along with.  His abilities don’t all play well together, and some of his mechanics are just frustrating.  Detailed below are some of my ideas for slight changes that should make him a lot more friendly, both to himself and to his allies.

 

General Rift Plane Mechanics:

Right now, the Rift Plane offers only minor benefits to other players.  The energy recovery is great, but the inability to pick up items is not.  Allies in the Rift are also wholly dependent on Limbo for enemies to fight, and cannot exit by themselves.  I suggest the following:

• Enemies entering or exiting the Rift by any means are briefly stunned.   Maybe something like Impact proc or a version of Excalibur’s Radial Blind effect.
• Enemies in the Rift take 150% damage from all sources (the old Rift Surge effect; Rift Surge itself needs some tweaks anyway).
• Allies who have been Banished to the Rift can exit at-will at any time.  I don’t know what key or command could be used, but it might not be a bad idea to give players a general way to remove allies’ buffs, should they have reason to.  Something like this wouldn’t be too badly hurt if it were a little bit intrusive.
• I don’t know if players should be able to pick up items while in the Rift.  Disallowing it seems to punish them for another player’s actions.  They should definitely be able to pick them up within Cataclysm, though; those items are in the Rift, too!  If allies can pick up items, there’s a case to be made for restricting Limbo from doing it anyway, to occasionally force him to come back to the real world.

Banish:

• I don’t really have any issues with this ability.  It allows him to selectively bring single targets into and out of the Rift, granting him fine control over enemies that he wouldn’t otherwise have.  Guaranteed, single-target knockdown with a bit of damage is on par with several other Frames’ 1-abilities.

Rift Walk:

• Again, this ability is largely fine as-is.  It serves as a way to escape from a hairy situation with near-total invulnerability, which would be a worthwhile ability by itself.  The extra energy recovery is a bonus, and it synergizes with Banish to make Limbo devastating against small groups of enemies.
• I’ve seen some suggestions that Rift Walk be combined with Banish, but I think this would hurt both abilities overall.  Rift Walk can’t help you escape from a tough group of enemies if you’re bringing them with you, and you can’t remove a heavy or Eximus if you follow it right into the Rift.  A different idea is that walking through an enemy while Rift Walking should Banish them, but this makes it worse than useless against melee enemies and Infested.
• An idea with a bit more merit is to replace Rift Walk with something like “Rift Gate”: a portal to the Rift Plane that any ally or enemy can enter or exit at will.  This runs into some of the above problems with large groups and melee enemies, but not as strongly.  If this ability automatically pushed Limbo into the Rift when cast, then it could still work much as it does now, while also allowing allies greater freedom with the Rift.

Rift Surge:

• This ability, as it stands, is disappointing.  A simple buff (well, debuff, I suppose), while not very interesting, can be a great way to give a Frame some group benefit.  Rift Surge, however, is highly conditional, with too high an energy cost for what it does.  Of all Limbo’s abilities, I think this needs the most work, and I’ve outlined a few ways to go about this.
• One option is to make its benefits more pronounced.  I’ve already suggested a passive debuff on enemies in the Rift, so make Rift Surge do other things.  Make it increase energy recovery even further while in the Rift, or grant health recovery instead.  Maybe allies move faster or enemies move more slowly.  Heck, make it so that allies can hurt enemies regardless of plane, while enemies are still stuck with fighting only what they can hit.  Make it interesting!  Extra damage is boring, and it doesn’t change the way we play the game.
• Alternatively, replace it with Rift Gate.  Limbo creates a portal akin to Nova’s Wormhole (Oberon’s Hallowed Ground could also work), and walking through it will change your plane to the opposite.  Alone, this might be a bit lackluster for a 3-ability, so maybe the gate damages enemies that go through it, in addition to the Rift’s innate stun.  Maybe allies can get a buff for going through, too, or maybe the ability itself just has an aura around Limbo.
• A third option is to make this ability into an area-Banish.  Something like Frost’s Ice Wave, where a portal rushes ahead of Limbo, Banishing (or un-Banishing) everything in its path.  Or, instead of that, make it a radial effect, where anything within a certain radius of Limbo has its plane reversed.  Doing something like this would require a change to Cataclysm, otherwise one or the other will be redundant.

Cataclysm:

• On the whole, this is a decent ability.  It’s a bit tricky to place it properly, and the damage and CC are minor, but the general Rift changes would at least mitigate these slightly.  What I don’t like about Cataclysm is the way it interferes with Limbo’s other abilities.  To make it a bit more synergistic, I propose the following:
• Any enemy or ally who enters the Cataclysm’s zone is sent to the Rift Plane, with whatever that transition entails.  This happens regardless of that person’s previous status, and it overrides and ends the effects of Banish.  When Cataclysm ends, or when an ally or enemy leaves the zone, they are returned to the physical world, again cancelling any existing Rift status.  The only exception is a Limbo in Rift Walk, who will remain in the opposite plane to his surroundings for the duration of Rift Walk.  A Rift Walking Limbo within Cataclysm is physical, while a Rift Walking Limbo outside is in the Rift.
• In tandem with this effect, using Banish on an enemy or ally within Cataclysm will return them to the physical plane.  If Banish ends or is cancelled while still within the zone, they return to the Rift until they exit or Cataclysm ends.
• Items, objects, and entities within the Cataclysm zone are in the Rift, and can be interacted with only by those also in the Rift (assuming Banished players cannot pick up items normally).
• As of now, the Cataclysm zone shrinks over time, before imploding at the end of its duration.  I actually don’t mind this, as it serves as a good visual indicator of how long the effect has before it ends.  It does potentially raise a problem if we combine this shrinkage with a stun upon entering or exiting the Rift, though; an enemy trying to enter the zone will be stunned upon entering, and by the time they recover it will have shrunk to the point where they are outside it again, ad infinitum.  To counter this, we could either remove the shrinkage or grant stunned enemies a brief grace period where changing plane will not stun them again.