Why Does Archwing Even Exist?

[Naqel]

The Archwing exists for the same reason the game is still considered an Open Beta, and why a lot of it's systems are a complete and total mess.

See, while I for the longest time criticized Warframe for it's shortcomings as a TPP shooter, with the introduction of archwings, the player ship and the kubrows, I have come to realize something that before was only an aspect mentioned in passing during that mini-documentary about DE realizing it's dream:

 

Warframe isn't supposed to be just a TPP shooter, it's meant to be a huge sprawling world, that we just so happen to explore primarily through the TPPS gameplay.

What DE is trying to do here, isn't just a competent TPPS(which they are barely managing to do), but a sprawling world that's engaging and entertaining to explore, with said exploration taking a variety of forms(which they are doing a stellar job at).

[Bansidhe]

The Archwing exists for the same reason the game is still considered an Open Beta, and why a lot of it's systems are a complete and total mess.

See, while I for the longest time criticized Warframe for it's shortcomings as a TPP shooter, with the introduction of archwings, the player ship and the kubrows, I have come to realize something that before was only an aspect mentioned in passing during that mini-documentary about DE realizing it's dream:

 

Warframe isn't supposed to be just a TPP shooter, it's meant to be a huge sprawling world, that we just so happen to explore primarily through the TPPS gameplay.

What DE is trying to do here, isn't just a competent TPPS(which they are barely managing to do), but a sprawling world that's engaging and entertaining to explore, with said exploration taking a variety of forms(which they are doing a stellar job at).

 

 

Woah boy! Steady on. I enjoy Warframe as much as the next guy but, seriously, let's try to, at the very least, keep reality in sight here.

 

Warframe is an up-to-four-player, co-op, shoot-em-up with backgrounds that change slightly from time-to-time. Nothing more, nothing less. If we are going to have any kind of meaningful discussion here the least we can do is to keep our fantasies to a minimum.

 

@OP While I wholeheartedly agree with what you say I have been where you are often enough in the past to understand the futility of your position. Having read this thread from start to finish I can see a repeating theme of Archwing fans all coming at you with the same retort - "I can't understand how you can complain about new content."

 

This is the key and is something you should be acknowledging. You have tried to offer reason at every step of the way but it goes unnoticed because you are offering it to people who, in their own words, cannot understand the concepts you are working with. They tell you frequently that they "can't" understand and you respond as if they had said they "don't" understand, i.e. you try to educate them, with logic and reason. You are wasting yours and their time. It won't work. It's not that they don't understand it is that they lack the capacity to understand. Not everyone is clever enough to understand certain concepts and ideas.

 

The people you are debating with think that "I like something" = "it is good". They think enjoyment and quality are the same. They don't realise that they could like something that is bad or not enjoy something that is good. I understand you and I happen to agree, though I would have chosen Chess as my analogy rather than Soccer but only because I could have anticipated the whole silly American-football thing.

[SableSonata]

How are people finding Archwing fun? Seriously. The controls are clunky; the designs are ugly, or at least clash with the existing aesthetic of the Warframes; the gameplay is monotonous and seriously lacking in variety; and overall it's just a very poor space-combat minigame. 

 

Archwing could be good, with a ton of work, but DE's history would indicate that it's never going to get enough attention to ever be anything better than okay. Warframe has very clearly become a game full of wasted potential and missed opportunities, because they want to do everything, which naturally leads to doing nothing particularly well. 

 

Just look at the void. Tons of content is locked in the void, but they're so busy with flashy new gimmicks and their hype that they spend approximately zero effort making the void actually fun to play.

[Gordyne]

Gaming experience means nothing if you don't have any (game) programming experience at the professional level.

 

 

False. If you've played a lot of games in a lot of genres, you can perfectly know wich are good an wich are mediocre.

 

It's not rocket science. It's not a complete matter of taste also.

 

You just have to look at the number of features that the game uses in combat, environment and progression that allow the player to think and evolve in the game. And that includes enemy desing, loot design, environment design and how all those features come thoghether  in quality and concision.

 

Want an example of the only really good level desing(and by desing I don't mean graphics) in WF?

 

Void secrets. The "Speed" rooms. They aren't perfect or innovative, but are a much better adddition than AW, because they have quality.

[Gordyne]

Dude i did game programming as a module. Had great amount of fun, but I eventually dropped it because the prospect of a 10 hour work day put me waaay off.

 

There is a rather large difference between having a lot of game ideas and making those ideas, work.

 

I also have programming skills related to games. And I know that.

 

But if they want to improve their game they will have to recognize good ideas and adapt them. Like polishing a rough diamond.

[tehgreg]

I am very surprised that so many people actually enjoy Archwing. However, there is a simple explanation to all this - people are just interested in new flashy things that keep them entertained for short periods of time. I disliked AW the moment I saw it presented during the live stream and I knew that nothing good would come out of it.

 

And here we have it: unpolished, boring and full of visual noise minigame that merely uses Warframe universe but has nothing to do with actual Warframe and the gameplay we know. Intead of making an essay out of this I'll just point out few things:

 

1) 2d minimap does not work in space - unless I'm playing corpus missions I have no clue where I am supposed to go.

 

2) flying out of bounds fails a mission - seriously? you give us entire space and then force us to NOT explore it? I'm going in one direction thinking there might be actual enemies there (look at the point above) and suddenly ordis shouts at me to not go "out of bounds" or the mission will be failure. So I turned around to fly in the direction I came from only to be forcefully extracted from the mission because I apparently flew too far away. (wut)

 

3) enemies get stuck in space debris making it impossible to finish missions

 

4) picking up mods and orbs is incredibly tiresome

 

5) needless visual noise - camera shakes, lens flares, even my own AW blinds me with its energy

 

6) AW took priority over the things that the community actually wants (already mentioned in this thread)

 

7) AW is forced upon me if I want to unlock content that I want to use in normal gameplay. I fear that there will be more stuff locked behind AW that I will have to play

 

8) we can breathe in space now? space magic at its finest

 

9) all of our current progress is thrown out of the window

 

But hey, new players are lured in to the game by "kewl stuffz" and existing players can act out their dreams about exo-skeleton fights in space with giant guns and swords straight from their japanese cartoons.

 

 

I only hope that AW will eventually be forgotten just like Kubrows and never brought up again. I dread the day when we see tenno reinforcements to be useless AW guns/swords. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by tehgreg

[Renegade343]

8) we can breathe in space now? space magic at its finest

One small nitpick there that most players seem to forget. 

 

Archwing has life support for the wearer. So there is that consistency problem sorted. 

 

Other than that, your opinion is noted, although my opinion is that it has potential to grow. 

[Gordyne]

 

Oh sure. Something has "never" been done before, so that's reason enough not to attempt it, right?

 

Nice passive-aggressiveness. Makes me wanna be in your shoes, alright.

Not passive-aggresiveness my friend, just tired. I've seen it enough times, in countless forums. Great, awesome ideas, much better thant the devs could come up with beign wasted. Some of them would make the games really shine. But they always misplace priorities.

 

Well... really hope I'm wrong and you're right, because there are many good ideas floating around this forum...

[Bansidhe]

One small nitpick there that most players seem to forget. 

 

Archwing has life support for the wearer. So there is that consistency problem sorted. 

 

Other than that, your opinion is noted, although my opinion is that it has potential to grow. 

 

How much life support? I presume from the Survival missions that we need oxygen. How much oxygen can the Archwing carry? It can't be unlimited so there must be a finite amount. Where is it stored? How long before it runs out?

[Renegade343]

How much life support? I presume from the Survival missions that we need oxygen. How much oxygen can the Archwing carry? It can't be unlimited so there must be a finite amount. Where is it stored? How long before it runs out?

That small place down where we wear the Archwing, at the lower back. That would be one plausible place to store oxygen (or chemicals that produce oxygen) (or energy that breaks down stored water to oxygen [Yes, it is electrolysis all over again. Hurrah.]) (or a carbon dioxide scrubber [with a small tank of oxygen at first], in which energy is then introduced to the absorbed carbon dioxide to break it down into carbon and oxygen gas for us to breath again). 

[Bansidhe]

That small place down where we wear the Archwing, at the lower back. That would be one plausible place to store oxygen (or chemicals that produce oxygen) (or energy that breaks down stored water to oxygen [Yes, it is electrolysis all over again. Hurrah.]) (or a carbon dioxide scrubber [with a small tank of oxygen at first], in which energy is then introduced to the absorbed carbon dioxide to break it down into carbon and oxygen gas for us to breath again). 

 

So that's the first five minutes taken care of, what do we do the rest of the time? Hold our breath?

 

If such a small area can house something that has the capacity to store sufficient oxygen, or chemicals to make oxygen, or a power cell to power prolonged electrolysis, for a whole combat mission then why the hell don't we take it into the Survival missions?

[Renegade343]

If such a small area can house something that has the capacity to store sufficient oxygen, or chemicals to make oxygen, or a power cell to power prolonged electrolysis, for a whole combat mission then why the hell don't we take it into the Survival missions?

I did say something about carbon dioxide scrubbers (meaning we could recycle our breath for quite some time (alright, we really breathe more oxygen back out, but we can always recapture that), and they do need quite a bit of energy to break carbon dioxide bonds to start making carbon and oxygen gas. So, probably not too good an idea to lug around a power pack that has a relatively higher chance of getting shot off in non-Archwing missions.

 

And not to mention that we did just rediscover the Archwings, so even if we were to get that 'breathing in space' technology integrated to our Warframes, we would need a bit of time to do that. 

[CaveCricket48]

The game isn't hard enough to balance, so they gotta make an entirely new game within warframe to balance more content because they're so good at it.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Threads like this always confuse me.

 

"Warframe is too easy/boring/not fun anymore!"

"This new content sucks!"

 

...wat?

[LazyKnight]

There is also the part of the playerbase who feel they are done collecting Warframes, Weapons, and MODs. For them a new mini-game could offer something else to collect.

 

For those who feel they must collect and max level everything, new items and MODs are what makes the game interesting.

Starting from scratch is not interesting, and neither is collecting something that are identical to the something existing that a player already has. None of the new mods are unique or otherwise are different.  The new mods are generic boring and this is nothing more than an artificial time wall.

 

I would rather play Zone of Enders over this Archwing 'mini-game'. If i am going to restart my progression, or whatever, i have other space games that i would much rather play (they are not buggy betas and they are the core game). 

[StinkyPygmy]

Sweet buttery lotus its literally just been introduced and for all intents and purposes is still effectively in beta. It will grow, become better and probably link in with other gameplay. You honestly think DE was gonna give us everything they planned for it in the first version of it?

You can call it a minigame all you want. If thats how you see it then its a damn fun minigame.

 

There is just no pleasing the forums.

Edited October 28, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[StinkyPygmy]

Starting from scratch is not interesting, and neither is collecting something that are identical to the something existing that a player already has. None of the new mods are unique or otherwise are different.  The new mods are generic boring and this is nothing more than an artificial time wall.

 

I would rather play Zone of Enders over this Archwing 'mini-game'. If i am going to restart my progression, or whatever, i have other space games that i would much rather play (they are not buggy betas and they are the core game). 

Then go play zone of enders.

The rest of us will enjoy archwing and continue to suggest improvements and see it grow.

[Bansidhe]

Threads like this always confuse me.

 

"Warframe is too easy/boring/not fun anymore!"

"This new content sucks!"

 

...wat?

 

Well your confusion only makes sense if you equate new to good. These two concepts, however, aren't synonyms.

 

Let me give you a simpler example to illustrate how your "wat?" was unfounded.

 

So some people are a little bored of a game. Warframe, for example. To help combat that boredom the developers introduce a new feature; let's say, for the sake of argument, that they introduce a new mini-game whereby the player has to press their space bar at exactly the right moment in order to light up a segment in a circular arrangement.

 

Now according to many, this new addition is just a boring, unasked for rehash of an existing mechanic, but for you, because it's new, it has to be good. It has to be amazing. You were bored before but now you have this new feature and because it is new it has to be amazing.

 

...wat? (back at you).

 

 

For my part, the reason I think that Archwing is a lame addition is all down to game type. If I choose to play a game then it is because I like what that game is about, I like the TYPE of game it is. I am not, then, interested in it becoming a different style of game later on. If I wanted to play a game of the new, different style, I would have chosen that in the first place.

 

If I fancy something sweet, I'll choose a dessert. Some nice Black Forest Gateau, perchance. I won't ever want to bite down into my nice, cherry-filled, chocolatey, cream-covered sponge only to find a layer of salt and vinegar crisps in the middle. I don't want savoury, I want sweet. I don't even want a mix of the two. Just the cake, thanks. That's why I picked the cake up in the first place!

 

It's like, when I settle down to watch a war film, I don't really want an out-of-place, shoe-horned in, romantic storyline running alongside the main action. I could be wrong but I don't remember much in the history books of rampant snogging at The Somme, for example.

 

Similarly I don't imagine that those who like period romances would appreciate it if, halfway through the piece, just as the buxom young heroine is swooning into the arms of the majestic "Oh Mr D'Arcy", a full armoured column were to go careering through the scene with all guns firing. 

 

It's about knowing what we want and picking what we want and not wanting it to turn into something it wasn't.

 

I'll just have the cake, thanks, it's what I chose and if it's all the same to you I'd prefer it if you didn't force me to eat crisps in order to get to my cake.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Bansidhe

[Bansidhe]

Oops - hit reply instead of edit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Bansidhe

[LazyKnight]

Then go play zone of enders.

The rest of us will enjoy archwing and continue to suggest improvements and see it grow.

Speak for yourself, and do not use the plural of the 'rest of us'; Just makes you sound childish.

 

 

There is just no pleasing the forums.

I could careless about the forums or any forums community opinion. This update is a mini-game, and a buggy one at that; It could have been rolled of by DE as a separate game, and marketed as such.

 

I am interested in playing a ninja game with swords and stuff, that is my subjective view of 'fun' that i do not pretend is shared by anyone. If DE wants to make a space fantasy simulator, i'll quit out of sheer boredom. I can not tolerated playing a flying simulator type of game for more than a few hours before it gets boring.

Edited October 28, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Xennocide420]

Can this thread be deleted already ? Jeez.

[Bansidhe]

Can this thread be deleted already ? Jeez.

 

Why?

[Seox]

I agree completely. I know that many players are fond of archwing and I agree that it's got a lot to it that's fun. I wish that DE had made the decision to do this after incomplete/unpolished systems like melee and syndicates were brought up to a quality standard that would make the game feel far more complete. As is, it feels like DE is going for a shallow buffet instead of a gratifying and focused menu.

 

My main problem is that for players who don't like archwing, the content team is now split down the middle in terms of where their effort goes. I'm not looking forward to waiting on Wednesday with glee and seeing an archwing weapon, then logging back out. It's cool, but I'm not sure it's warframe.

[MichaelSD]

My main problem is that for players who don't like archwing, the content team is now split down the middle in terms of where their effort goes. I'm not looking forward to waiting on Wednesday with glee and seeing an archwing weapon, then logging back out. It's cool, but I'm not sure it's warframe.

 

This. Archwing is so different for me, that I do not understand why it is in Warframe.

[tehgreg]

Sweet buttery lotus its literally just been introduced and for all intents and purposes is still effectively in beta. 

 

"it's still in beta" excuse is the worst excuse ever and on top of that is no longer valid. This game has been around for so long and besides try going on www.warframe.com and show me where does it say that Warframe is in beta phase.