Deleveling Abilities

[Rainofgod]

One small problem that I have with the new ability system is for those specialized builds that prefer lower ranked abilties.

I think it should be possible to adjust the rank of a specific skill to lower it temporarily, probably within the frame's mod page, so that is easily to adjust it, and that you won't look over it when you want a different level. or perhaps hydroid with his barrage for a more specialized area, etc. Builds like a chaos spam build, which wants a low as possible duration, or a few of those builds. Or for simply lowering the damage on specific abilties, and purely use the utility of it. (stunning enemies without killing them for the codex as example)

 

[direcyphre]

Pretty sure you have to use corrupted mods regardless of what rank.

[CelsiusPrime]

yeah I think DE want's us to shift toward using Corrupted mods as our way of reducing power/duration/etc instead of using lower ranked abilties

[Ithloniel]

yeah I think DE want's us to shift toward using Corrupted mods as our way of reducing power/duration/etc instead of using lower ranked abilties

 

Problem with this is that certain abilities, for certain purposes, get worse as you level.  That is severely counter-productive.  The "cprrupted mod" argument only addresses ability balance from a static perspective, and fails to account for the importance of in-game progression.  A game like this, you expect to improve as you level, not weaken.

 

While this usually has to do with novel circumstances, it is still worth addressing.  It isn't the end of the world if it isn't changed, but it would be nice to have a discussion on.

[CelsiusPrime]

so I'm curious how you mean that some abilities get worse as you level. you mention chaos and tempest barrage, but those can be affected with fleeting expertise and narrow minded (respectively).

[Esguord]

so I'm curious how you mean that some abilities get worse as you level. you mention chaos and tempest barrage, but those can be affected with fleeting expertise and narrow minded (respectively).

Totally. In fact, you probably need to make abilities like Chaos more spammable, so you'll be using FE anyway, taking advantage of both the decrease in PD and the increase in PE.

[Ithloniel]

so I'm curious how you mean that some abilities get worse as you level. you mention chaos and tempest barrage, but those can be affected with fleeting expertise and narrow minded (respectively).

 

 

Totally. In fact, you probably need to make abilities like Chaos more spammable, so you'll be using FE anyway, taking advantage of both the decrease in PD and the increase in PE.

 

So a new player, who doesn't have FE, should expect their Chaos build to become less effective as they level?  It's this idea that bewilders me.  When considering the significance of low-rank abilities, account for players who are trying to progress in the game, and don't already have everything.

 

The cop-out would be to say, "Oh, well they can do that build once they get Fleeting Expertise".  To that, I say, why make that restriction?  FE will make the skill better, regardless of level, so if a player would rather use a deleveled version, should they not have that option?  By that same token, maybe a late-game player who has FE wants the skill to have an even lower duration than FE, or our new friend Transient Fortitude, can give?

 

Fact: Allowing deleveling provides more in-game options without negatively affecting game-play.  Whether you want to use those options is up to you.  Most people, quite honestly, won't.  I doubt I would, but I still support the idea.

 

Here are some moves that can potentially benefit from deleveling:

 

- Bounce (no extra bounces)

- Wormhole (no extra travels)

- Chaos (spam)

- Tempest Barrage (spam)

 

Anyway, whether deleveling is useful or not is up to interpretation.  Personally, I don't care for it.  It made sense with the old system, but not in the new, in my opinion.  Should it be allowed? Definitely.  When you have a game that takes RPG elements into it, choice in one's skill levels becomes a common and widely accepted aspect of a game.

 

Maybe there is still a better way to implement this kind of thing, down the road.  Say, skill points that you invest into your four skills?  This means you would always be partially limited by skill point capacity.  Say we awarded skill points every 3 levels.  That means, at level 30, you would have 10 skill points.  With each skill having a level from 0 to 3 currently (4 levels total), you would need a total of 16 skill points to max out a frame.  With only 10 at rank 30, this would mean you could only max two skills, and level a third halfway.  Another option is trying to maintain skill balance without maxing them out, and using corrupted mods to make up the difference.

 

Thoughts? Ideas?

[SIDESTRE4M]

Seems to be pretty exotic to use lower ranked abilities. Dunno. Since the system was changed, suddenly many topics popup with people using strange tactics.

[shut]

Seems to be pretty exotic to use lower ranked abilities. Dunno. Since the system was changed, suddenly many topics popup with people using strange tactics.

 

They used these same tactics before the update; this was just never an issue until now.

Edited October 28, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Crewell]

One might argue that DE doesn't want players spamming Chaos. It was nerfed back in (I think) update 8 to try and prevent spamming because it trivialized missions.

[SIDESTRE4M]

They used these same tactics before the update; this was just never an issue until now.

 

That's what I meant... the changes reveal strange things that happened before.

Suddenly people who had zero ability builds appear who don't grant the rest of the world the pleasure of having 8 mods and four abilities, then people appeared who wanted to disable abilities because they fear pressing the wrong buttons,..

and then people appear who want to delevel abilities to shorten their impact.

 

I wonder what I will read tomorrow.

[CelsiusPrime]

(1)So a new player, who doesn't have FE, should expect their Chaos build to become less effective as they level?

 

(2) By that same token, maybe a late-game player who has FE wants the skill to have an even lower duration than FE, or our new friend Transient Fortitude, can give?

 

(3)Here are some moves that can potentially benefit from deleveling:

 

- Bounce (no extra bounces)

- Wormhole (no extra travels)

- Chaos (spam)

- Tempest Barrage (spam)

 

(4)Should it be allowed? Definitely.  When you have a game that takes RPG elements into it, choice in one's skill levels becomes a common and widely accepted aspect of a game.

 

(5)Maybe there is still a better way to implement this kind of thing, down the road.  Say, skill points that you invest into your four skills?  This means you would always be partially limited by skill point capacity.  Say we awarded skill points every 3 levels.  That means, at level 30, you would have 10 skill points.  With each skill having a level from 0 to 3 currently (4 levels total), you would need a total of 16 skill points to max out a frame.  With only 10 at rank 30, this would mean you could only max two skills, and level a third halfway.  Another option is trying to maintain skill balance without maxing them out, and using corrupted mods to make up the difference.

 

(Numbers coordinate to quoted text)

 

(1) no. Chaos becomes more effective with levels because it keeps the enemies occupied longer, thereby allowing the new player to avoid fire as well as kill more enemies safely. now maybe De could change what happens with certain abilities as they level to more suit them for "end game" playstyles but as a starting player longer is better. 

 

(2) I think this goes against what DE thinks and believes to be good for the game. I think and feel like DE wants the lowest duration possible to be attainable with only FE ( and potential Arcane helms, I forget if there are any that reduce duration). going lower than FE allows is lower than the Devs originally designed and this is one way of making it play more the way that they want it to be played.

(3) I can totally see bounce being effective with only one bounce because I understand the very low possibility that you will need to traverse that route again, and that that bounce pad will still be there. Same goes for Wormhole, though I can see that going against team play. (having open portals for teammates to travel through to keep pace with nova)

For the other abilities, if spam is your reason, then you are just looking for an easy mode and don't wish to deal with the consequences of your current warframe build. that might sound harsh but that's how I feel.

 

(4) no it shouldn't be allowed but there should be a different system to be put in place for those few abilities that are modified more than just duration/strength based abilities. like bounce and wormhole. Another common and widely accepted game mechanic in games with RPG elements?...... Leveling Up. (not un leveling up)

 

(5) I don't want to offend, but this idea is terrible, why would DE go through the process of making 4 abilities that if used correctly work well together in one frame only to have just enough skill points for half of that work. What person goes to get a warframe and think, golly, if only it had half as much abilities as it does now, then I would get it??? there is definitely a better way to specifically target the abilities that could benefit from less charges without screwing over one of the core parts of the game

 

 

One might argue that DE doesn't want players spamming Chaos. It was nerfed back in (I think) update 8 to try and prevent spamming because it trivialized missions.

 

 

I think this is the major point for this whole conversation. Maybe, just maybe, DE is trying to make the game enjoyable and not become a spam fest by avoiding ways to make certain gamebreaking abilities less gamebreaking.

 

I admit they are probably going about this the wrong way but it's still the point that maybe DE doesn't want players to have unleveled and half leveled skills.

[Ithloniel]

One might argue that DE doesn't want players spamming Chaos. It was nerfed back in (I think) update 8 to try and prevent spamming because it trivialized missions.

 

If they didn't, they wouldn't put corrupted mods int he game that allow this spamming.  It was nerfed way back when this spam was an actual balance issue.  My argument was that low-level frames might not have the mods needed to allow spam, and might be willing to sacrifice range for the quicker stun.  It becomes a simple matter of preference.  You give up one benefit for another.

 

-snip-

 

1) Many late-game players, myself included, will disagree completely with this one.  Some players might like a longer Chaos duration, but many late-game players find that a lower cast is far more viable for those 40 mins to 1 hour survivals.  The stun time allows for your team to collect themselves, and when moving between rooms, it means you won't still be stuck in an old duration when new enemies appear.  On top of that, the low efficiency build allows for some seriously easy recasting of this skill, so low duration is barely a detriment.

 

2) I can't say what DE thinks, and at the end of the day, they'll do what is best.  I am cool with it either way, but I prefer giving players more options under most circumstances.

 

3) If the problem is team support, it is worth noting that most Vauban players only ever drop Bounce pads for themselves, and those that do cooperate and drop pads for teammates tend to make new pads, in different spots, to facilitate a team-mate's needs.  One bounce is enough, and with the cheap cost, recasting is no detriment.  Worse still, occasionally an enemy can run onto your bounce pad and follow you.  Nothing like standing on a ledge in Sechura to have a Distruptor jump right in front of you, drain your energy, and then knock you off the platform.  Sometimes your luck with Bounce just isn't what you want it to be.

 

4) There is no common unleveling mechanic in other games, besides the common character reset options, because players can already customize their preferences in skill level.  This means, if I want to balance my character with a level 3 fireball instead of a level 10 one, I can do that.  I used to use this tactic to create unique builds in a lot of games throughout my life, and I am sure I am far from alone there.  I remember one game with a decrease agility debuff, that at level one could still strip agility buffs upon being cast, regardless of how rough the debuff itself was.  I kept it at level 1 for that reason alone.

 

5) The idea was an off-the-cuff example, meant to illustrate my point.  That point was, that something can be done to allow for ability balance on each frame, granting individual customization between frames without relying solely on the mod system.  Now that abilities themselves are off the mod system, this should open some doors.  There were already hints at similar possible changes from the classes being introduced with focus system, so who knows?  Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

If deleveling isn't an option, there should be at least some means other than the current mod options available to tweak these abilities.  DE has already hinted at the possibility of "mod tuning" later on.  Since abilities are no longer mods, perhaps a similar option for abilities would be beneficial.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Ithloniel

[Rainofgod]

To be honest the Actual reason I brought the topic up was for the codex thing, (archwing missions).

 

However there were some abilities, without the reason of becoming a spamfest that people could prefer being lower: as said wormhole, bounce.

Blessing before it got tweaked a final time.

I find barrage an interesting one, tried to experiment with it, but getting duplicates was not easy, and I do not have that many narrow mindeds of specific ranks. The reasoning behind that was with simply the maxed version it was unreliable, with a maxed narrowminded on top, it would work well together with snipers, but it being very local, it would remove this crowd control for the next 20 seconds or so. (this counts doubly for indoors).

perhaps there are builds with nekros who focuses on power strength but does not want his entire army to be used on pressing 4 (speculation).

then there is slash dash and other mobility skills, that might give to much momentum with specific setups.

 

Many of them are minor, the reason I chose for example the chaos one, that I heard it a while back as a viable option.

 

(barrage of hydroid I find his most interesting skill, followed by undertow)