Syndicate Key Packs Are Overpowered

[Donnell]

I would rather spend syndicate point on random Mod packs. Would save me a lot of money with the damn fusion :D

[LukeAura]

What is the point of interception rewarding T4 keys now?  The T4 keys were the carrot, now they are worse than a junk item, and it is truly a waste of time to bother with interception nodes. Any t3 key will have higher value than a t4 for someone's playtime.

 

The keys were the only thing in the old rep store that was balanced, nothing else was reasonably priced. Now interception is just broken, and it is a total waste of anyone time to run an interception for keys.

The point of the syndicate standing gain buff was choice. If you don't like Interception, then you don't have to farm T4 keys through it any more. If you do like Interception, then they are bonus keys. You can also earn any key through Interception, where as you'll probably only be able to stock pile one or two key types at a time through syndicates. 

No they weren't, Running any mission but high affinity gain ones meant it would take upwards of 50 runs for one key pack, let alone try and continue ranking through the syndicate. High affinity yield missions are a terrible balance point.  

[HAYABU5A]

gets given good options to access T4 content

 

complains on forums that the option is too good 

 

seems legit..

this is why we cant have nice things

[UltimateSpinDash]

The point of the syndicate standing gain buff was choice. If you don't like Interception, then you don't have to farm T4 keys through it any more. If you do like Interception, then they are bonus keys. You can also earn any key through Interception, where as you'll probably only be able to stock pile one or two key types at a time through syndicates. 

No they weren't, Running any mission but high affinity gain ones meant it would take upwards of 50 runs for one key pack, let alone try and continue ranking through the syndicate. High affinity yield missions are a terrible balance point.  

Well if you think that was the point, I'll have to inform you that DE overshot the target there.

Interception is absolutely pointless, due to the fact that simply farming some rep, ideally in the Void, is vastly superior to playing interception.

 

 

gets given good options to access T4 content

 

complains on forums that the option is too good 

 

seems legit..

this is why we cant have nice things

Balance?

 

Also why is T4 which is supposed the be harder and more rewarding more accessible than T1 now?

 

According to that logic, you were probably fine with Trinity granting full invulnerability, allowing any team with Trinity (+- a Makro to hit 4 so Trin can go read a book) to do hour long survivals. I mean, it's a good option to do endless missions, right?

Edited November 19, 2014 by UltimateSpinDash

[LazyKnight]

No they weren't, Running any mission but high affinity gain ones meant it would take upwards of 50 runs for one key pack, let alone try and continue ranking through the syndicate. High affinity yield missions are a terrible balance point.  

They balanced the cost of keys around interception (the place that gives T4 keys), it takes a minimum of 4 rounds for a 50%(ish) chance at a key (random of several types). Interception by round 4 would have given you 300-600 rep (under 1x rep), if you were on Ceres just playing normally to round 4.

Edited November 19, 2014 by LazyKnight

[LukeAura]

Well if you think that was the point, I'll have to inform you that DE overshot the target there.

Interception is absolutely pointless, due to the fact that simply farming some rep, ideally in the Void, is vastly superior to playing interception.

I don't think, I know. Rebecca said so. 

If it's absolutely pointless, then you don't enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, then it isn't pointless.

And if you run to Wave 4, two or three times for one key pack, then you just made two or three extra keys that may be of types you currently don't have access to, how is that pointless? 

 

[LukeAura]

They balanced the cost of keys around interception (the place that gives T4 keys), it takes a minimum of 4 rounds for a 50%(ish) chance at a key (random of several types). Interception by round 4 would have given you 300-600 rep (under 1x rep) if you were on Ceres, just playing normally to round 4.

Yes, they were. But that's good why? Because it gave Interception value? Why should we defend Interception over player enjoyment? 

The players who Enjoy interception earn bonus keys of all types, where as in Syndicates they will only be able to earn two kinds at a time. Every other player who didn't like Interception now doesn't need to worry about Interception.

 

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

If DE's Staff was inclined to do so, I would not protest if they put all four ranks of keys in the rep shop and balanced their price. If they want to remove RNG, and instead have a meter allotment of keys per day, so be it. I do not know how many people actually buy their key packs and that might prevent them from even considering this.

 

What they have done, will result in the three lower tiered keys being far more valuable than the highest ranked key. It is now harder to get a single T3 mobile defense key than it would be to get 5 T4 mobile defense keys.

 

The difficultly jump of T4 over T3 is not enough to warrant this degree of skewered tier accessibility. If DE wants people to be having fun, that is fine by me, but at least balance it so it follows some logic.

Edited November 19, 2014 by LazyKnight

[UltimateSpinDash]

I don't think, I know. Rebecca said so.

Would you be so kind and provide a link so I can read her statement myself?

 

If DE's Staff was inclined to do so, I would not protest if they put all four ranks of keys in the rep shop and balanced their price. If they want to remove RNG, and instead have a meter allotment of keys per day, so be it. I do not know how many people actually buy their key packs and that might prevent them from even considering this.

 

What they have done, will result in the three lower tiered keys being far more valuable than the highest ranked key. It is now harder to get a single T3 mobile defense key than it would be to get 5 T4 mobile defense keys.

 

The difficultly jump of T4 over T3 is not enough to warrant this degree of skewered tier accessibility. If DE wants people to be having fun, that is fine by me, but at least balance it so it follows some logic.

[REDHOOOD]

OP has a point. Good luck trading for plat when everyone else and their mothers have the same loot. 

 

 

I do have to agree myself. Some stuff (Like dailies) need their rep amounts changed, and I think the Tower Keys either need to be decreased to just one key, or up the amount of rep required for it. Or just remove them entirely.

 

Easier access = lower value. This game has an economy, and when things become easier/harder to obtain, prices fluctuate along with the difficulty of obtaining such. Right now, I can easily do 1 T4D, and get 5 T4D's back from one run.

 

Everyone should really reflect on the above comment. 

[LukeAura]

Would you be so kind and provide a link so I can read her statement myself?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345857-what-to-expect-with-1521/page-4#entry3863027

I would prefer the limit of keys per day personally if it has to be done. Increasing the price does not actually solve the problem. If you have 78 keys, making them four times as hard to obtain is still going to give you an absurd number of keys. It will however, kill anyone who isn't playing high reps abilities to earn keys. 

[gam3addict]

How about, first, we get some easier ways to get hold of specific keys? Because as it is I've not managed to get my hands on a new T3 key in like a month because RNG keeps screwing me in Excavations and Defenses. Yes, I can do Survivals for 15 minutes per key, but that's amazingly inefficient. Here's a thought, instead of 5k rep for Tower-4-whatever, do 5k rep for a guarantee of the key type, but not the tier. Basically you get a random 5 keys but all are of the one game type that syndicate is known for. There, now T4's still have scarcity and the other keys are feasible to get.

[UltimateSpinDash]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345857-what-to-expect-with-1521/page-4#entry3863027

I would prefer the limit of keys per day personally if it has to be done. Increasing the price does not actually solve the problem. If you have 78 keys, making them four times as hard to obtain is still going to give you an absurd number of keys. It will however, kill anyone who isn't playing high reps abilities to earn keys. 

Somebody posted a suggestion that T1-T4 Keys should be unlocked as you rank up in a syndicate (Rank 2-5) and increase price (5000 * Tier, which would be 20000 for T4 Keys). I like this one the most, and it also negates the need for a cap, since we already have a capped rep gain.

 

How about, first, we get some easier ways to get hold of specific keys? Because as it is I've not managed to get my hands on a new T3 key in like a month because RNG keeps screwing me in Excavations and Defenses. Yes, I can do Survivals for 15 minutes per key, but that's amazingly inefficient. Here's a thought, instead of 5k rep for Tower-4-whatever, do 5k rep for a guarantee of the key type, but not the tier. Basically you get a random 5 keys but all are of the one game type that syndicate is known for. There, now T4's still have scarcity and the other keys are feasible to get.

See the above, if DE wants to go through with the key packs, then Syndicates may actually hold the solution to your problem in the future.

Edited November 19, 2014 by UltimateSpinDash

[Egg_Chen]

There are valid points, and I wouldn't mind a small change, but I can't accept keeping Interception relevant as an arguement.

The worry that no one will play Interception if they don't need keys says more about that mode than anything.

T4 keys were placed there to force players there, instead of making the mode fun in itself.

[Eyeless]

With the recent fiasco that is the stacking rewards (ie nothing but crap mods we have hundreds of in stock) and the rarity of a lot of the prime parts assuming you don't have plat to blow on it...you honestly want to nerf this? Seriously? 

 

The key packs are fine, it doesn't assure an automatic win for that part you've been trying to spam specific keys for. 

 

All it does is give you more runs to spam so you can have an easier time burning yourself out not getting the last prime part you need for your collection until DE releases the next batch. 

[Ops1-Jatzu]

Edit: LOL, ninja'd quite a bit of times while typing/eating :P

 

It's not necessarily about the keys if you ask me, but rather the rewards the keys grant.

 

Before it took you 15+ minutes perhaps to farm a single T4 key ... you and a squad could go farm for an hour or more and get 5 keys

 

Which gave you a chance of getting a valued trade item.

 

Now I can run a single 15 minute game, and get the same 5 chances,... Not only that but during those 5 chances i'll easily get the availability of 5 more or perhaps even 10 more chances at those rewards.

 

Some of the most expensive rewards will quickly devalue ... meaning that the most expensive sets in the game (Nyx P, Loki P, Boltor P, etc/etc) Will quickly drop in price, leaving only t3 rare rewards and non-prime-part valuables to flourish.

Edited November 19, 2014 by eternaL1

[LukeAura]

Somebody posted a suggestion that T1-T4 Keys should be unlocked as you rank up in a syndicate (Rank 2-5) and increase price (5000 * Tier, which would be 20000 for T4 Keys). I like this one the most, and it also negates the need for a cap, since we already have a capped rep gain.

Unlocking as you rank up is fine, but again, increasing their cost doesn't help you when you can make 5 to 10k in one run and your cap is 40k in one day. However, any one averaging 500 a run will have one hell of a time trying to earn them. The problem is the upper limit, cutting off the lower limit isn't going to help. 

 

[UltimateSpinDash]

Unlocking as you rank up is fine, but again, increasing their cost doesn't help you when you can make 5 to 10k in one run and your cap is 40k in one day. However, any one averaging 500 a run will have one hell of a time trying to earn them. The problem is the upper limit, cutting off the lower limit isn't going to help. 

 

You get a bit less then that for an exterminate run on Pluto. And honestly, non-endless mission types are just not up to par with endless ones when it comes to rewards. The syndicates are not the issue here though.

[DSpite]

I fail to see why the keys break "balance", since that can be the only reason they could be possible be still discussed here.

 

If this once again comes down to the ability for more people to go out and get gear and you are missing out on Plat, that is a very, very sad excuse. Your ability to trade should not be what the rewards in this game should revolve around, they should revolve about making the game more fun to play and remove grind, which is exactly what they are doing.

 

Platinum does not get created out of the vacuum, the only way it can exist in game is if another person injects it, so the plat that YOU have came from someone who paid real cash to get it. EVERYONE in this game has to buy slots with plat, and at worse, this spreads the plat cost around to more people.

[LazyKnight]

T4 keys were placed there to force players there, instead of making the mode fun in itself.

I have seen numerous post by people that outright despise the interception game nodes. I have to wonder, if DE removed the T4 keys from the interception's rewards tables, would it rank lower in popularity than the old rescue mission?

 

 

Somebody posted a suggestion that T1-T4 Keys should be unlocked as you rank up in a syndicate (Rank 2-5) and increase price (5000 * Tier, which would be 20000 for T4 Keys). 

The suggested '5k*Tier' is probably too step of a cost increase.

 

The cost per key tier, is something the DE_staff would have to figure-out, because only they know how much effort they want to involve in obtaining a key.

 

 

I fail to see why the keys break "balance", since that can be the only reason they could be possible be still discussed here.

T4 keys when compared to the difficulty of acquiring T3 keys is where it is broken.

Edited November 19, 2014 by LazyKnight

[VKhaun]

Maybe they're gearing up for a 2nd tier key. Imagine if OD had come out and been around with nav coords hard to find. THen suddenly nav coords EVERYWHAR... Lephantis... Second tier key (second tier as in need a key to get parts for another key...). Watch T5 require something to craft or enter that you get from T4.

[fadeinlight]

I agree with the OP, but I think they should double the price as well.  Additionally, I'd like to see the Syndicates offer some of the lower-tier keys as well, for a proportionate cost.

 

People have argued that doing so would take away an income source from newer players, but I rarely see anyone selling keys lower than T4 anyway.

Edited November 19, 2014 by fadeinlight

[MixterFox]

Driving down the value of T4s really hurts DEs profits tho. Before you could get R5s from the reward table rank 10 mods would go for 300-400 plat now I often see them going for 150-200. Making it easier to get those cores to rank those mods will drive prices down even further. And while I don't agree with everything DE does to make money in this game, they still need to make money on plat sales. Anything that drives down the price of items paid for in plat hurts DEs profits, which in turn hurts this game.

[UltimateSpinDash]

I fail to see why the keys break "balance", since that can be the only reason they could be possible be still discussed here.

 

If this once again comes down to the ability for more people to go out and get gear and you are missing out on Plat, that is a very, very sad excuse. Your ability to trade should not be what the rewards in this game should revolve around, they should revolve about making the game more fun to play and remove grind, which is exactly what they are doing.

 

Platinum does not get created out of the vacuum, the only way it can exist in game is if another person injects it, so the plat that YOU have came from someone who paid real cash to get it. EVERYONE in this game has to buy slots with plat, and at worse, this spreads the plat cost around to more people.

If you had read the OP, you would know that I am not a Trader (if anything, I buy stuff, rarely). After purchasing two prime accesses, platinum really is not the issue here.

[Deus_X_Machina]

The T4 Keys should never have been implemented that way, and especially with the 10times Reputation gain everyone should have known what would come from it.

 

Sometimes I get headaches from some shortsightedness in decisions.

 

Keys were, till Syndicates, "hidden" behind a mission. There was some effort needed to get one of them.

 

It wasn't a really good idea to hide the highest Keys behind only one mission type though.

 

But now - the highest Tier keys are the easiest avaiable.

And even if it is changed back, there already was high damage done , as many keys have gone out. I don't even care about the economy, but it unbalances the gain of those having the keys versus those not having them.

 

At least other keys should be aviable too, as they are harder to get now than T4s, the count set down to one and the price raised up.

 

E.g. 5000 for one T1, 10000 for one T2, 15000 for one T3, 20000 for one T4.

 

 

Of course that favours players that do play much - but what doesn't, in any game?

In the End, all players have the same ratio of normal missions to Void missions, if they strife for the same, regardless of how long they play.