Dark Sector Badlands: Expanding The Foundations

[DiabolusUrsus]

Preface

 

     Welcome! This thread is a collaboration between myself and Phaenur, and it is the brainchild of about two weeks of regular effort on our part to flesh a passing thought out into a fully-fledged concept. There are over 4,500 words between you and the end here, so prepare to be in this for a long haul. For your convenience, most of the thread has been divided into Headings, Subheadings, and spoiler sections to make tackling this behemoth of text a little less overwhelming. Within each spoiler you'll find both a bulleted list of key points and ideas similar to a changelog, and the obligatory elaboration as to just what the heck we're talking about and why we're talking about it. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

 

Introduction

 

     So. Dark Sectors. They were supposed to be a facet of Warframe’s end-game, something that introduced a form of sustainable gameplay for experienced players to enjoy. They were supposed to be sections of the star chart that were not accessible by normal means, places that were difficult to reach and even more difficult to explore. What we got stuck with in the end were singular nodes unlocked through clan investment that featured multipliers for speeding up the grinding process. This in and of itself is not a huge problem, but I think we can agree that Dark Sectors fell short of an actual end-game and transformed into a quality-of-life improvement for the pre-existing endgame: Grinding the hell out of endless game types for affinity, credits, and resources. In other words, more of the same with slightly different packaging.

 

     Keeping that in mind, let’s set out a few stipulations for designing and end-game focused on building off of the bare-bones framework of potential that Dark Sectors laid out for us.

-          Must be endless. (Potentially infinite scaling.)

 

-          Must introduce gameplay that is distinguishable from normal gameplay, in terms of difficulty, complexity, and rewards. (New game type.)

 

-          Must encourage teamwork without practically prohibiting solo play. (No interception-styled objectives.)

 

Transforming the Solar Map: Dark Sector Badlands

 

Challenging a Vast Frontier

 

- Dark Sectors are now actual sectors; they expand into their own “planetary” maps with multiple nodes, with only a few unlocked from the beginning.

 

- New nodes are unlocked with nav segments granted as guaranteed rewards from progression in previous nodes.

 

- The deeper you get, the denser the resources become, and the more chances there are of interesting encounters and discoveries!

 

     Many of you probably remember a time when Dark Sectors were referred to as “Badlands” during development, and I hope I’m not alone in being disappointed that they didn’t give us new areas to explore and harsher conditions to survive in search of unique or rare loot. By expanding the node-counts of the various Dark Sectors, players can feel as though they are actually venturing into a sector of unexplored space, rather than peeking into an unlit corner of Saturn.

     As players progress deeper into the Dark Sectors, the going starts off tougher and it becomes more difficult to reach the next checkpoint. The new nav segments should be thought of as coordinates for suitable drop-zones farther into the Dark Sectors rather than maps to separate little mini-planets. (i.e. You’re not finding your way from Terminus to Tolstoj, you’re recording where points A, B, and C are within Sechura so that you can jump back in where you left off rather than fighting your way back through the first ten to fifteen minutes over and over.) This provides players with a deeper sense of immersion by allowing them to literally map the Dark Sectors out for themselves; you have to walk there before you can fly there.

 

One of Two Certainties – Taxes

 

- Global clan taxes now have a floor of 5% and a ceiling of 30%, and can only be altered when the Solar Rail is deployed or defended.

 

- This tax is supplemented by a credits-only "passage fee" with a floor and ceiling determined by the level range of the destination. Each payment grants passage for 48 hours.

 

- Clans receive an additional bonus of credits and resources tied to the progress players make in the sector, without reducing anyone's rewards.

 

     Why the changes to the tax system? Well, Dark Sector missions can now be expected to run longer more frequently, and players should be netting larger batches of loot overall. A floor and ceiling for tax rates prevent clans from setting tax rates so high that people are dissuaded from entering specific Dark Sectors, while also ensuring that clans aren’t ousted for daring to set any tax at all. The progression-based bonus encourages clans to make Dark Sectors more accessible to the public, and the limitations on when rates can be changed prevent clans from using bait-and-switch to gain favor during conflict. If you support someone offering 10%, you’ll get 10%.

 

Putting Our Skills to the Test: Dark Sector Expedition

 

Reading the Mood – Map Generation and Tile Sets

 

- Dark Sectors now generate maps with a larger number of tiles than usual, on par with Excavation maps from Cryotic Front and Galleon maps from Fomorian Sabotage.

 

- Players spawn in the extraction room (not on the extraction point, so they aren’t booted as soon as they load.)

 

- Tiles include Settlement, Ice Planet, Forest, Outpost, Asteroid, Galleon, and Corpus Cruiser; Shipyards, Gas City, Infested Ship, Derelict, and Void are excluded.

 

     So, what’s with the spawning right next to extraction? And why all the tile set limitations? Well, the Expedition gametype should be focused on exploration, survival, and treasure-hunting, so the only real “failure” condition is going to be death. While you could turn right around and walk straight back into the extraction point, what would you have accomplished, really? (For this reason, mission and bonus credits will only be given out after certain checkpoints.)

 

     As for the tile set limitations, Expedition is all about setting the mood. Dark Sectors should be desolate. They should be dilapidated. They should be inhospitable, and feel dead. This excludes Shipyards, as while the pools of toxic waste are rather inhospitable, it would be rather odd to find ships being assembled in areas that are supposed to be empty. Gas City is a no-go for the same reasons, and the Derelict/Void tiles are already too iconic to be repurposed into nondescript and unexplored regions of space. Infested Ship is debatable, but I felt that the tile is a little too alive (literally) and more or less shoves the infested theme straight into your face. Sure, the region may be unexplored, but you already know what you’re going to find.

 

     In keeping with the theme of inhospitable environments, it would be a good idea if dynamic water could be removed from tiles in Dark Sectors – no rivers, no waterfalls, no ponds. People with low-end machines will also be thankful for that. To be perfectly clear, the map itself is not infinite. It is simply very large, with many separate paths heavily clogged with objective-based progression stoppers. Ideally, players spend enough time fighting to gain ground that the enemies drive them away before they can properly explore and loot the entire map.

 

Climate Change is a Lie – True Environmental Hazards

 

    Players will spawn into Expedition with very little of the map actually playable, in that they find their progress hampered by lethal environmental conditions that they must either eliminate through completing secondary objectives, or circumnavigate by finding alternate routes forward.

 

- Blizzards: Players’ shields are quickly sapped, and players are slowed by a powerful cold proc beneath 50% shields. If players remain exposed to blizzards for too long, they are frozen solid; technically alive, but effectively dead as far as the game is concerned. If teammates can clear a blizzard, players that have been frozen will thaw. If you’re on your own, you’re out of luck. (Players can still elect to spend a revive point if necessary.)

 

- Sandstorms: Players’ shields are stripped immediately upon entering a sandstorm, and their health begins to take damage. In addition, the tempest of grain gradually erodes armor for the remainder of the mission, increasing damage taken to health.

- Corrosive Atmosphere: Functionally the same but visually distinct, this hazard can be added to Venus and other appropriate regions for bonus immersion points.

 

- Blinding Sunlight: Fairly self-explanatory. Extremely bright sunlight from either proximity or lack of atmosphere makes it practically impossible to see. For once, blinding glare in Warframe is intentional! This hazard by itself is harmless, but proper exploration is all but impossible, prolonged exposure can produce a radiation proc, and enemies in the Dark Sectors are strong enough that players will want to be in full possession of their faculties whenever possible.

 

- Inferno: Scorching surface temperatures quickly melt or incinerate anything unlucky or stupid enough to get caught without shelter.

 

- Pitch Darkness: Once again fairly self-explanatory. Even emergency lights are absent, leaving the Tenno in complete darkness and limiting visibility to only a few feet. Grineer and Corpus Crewmen suffer from reduced accuracy, but robots, animals, and Infested are uninhibited. Turn on the lights to even the playing field.

 

- Radiation Leak: A thick miasma of radiation blankets the area, constantly proccing radiation and reducing Warframe power strength, duration, and range for the remainder of the mission. The radiation itself is dense enough to settle relatively low to the ground, and will kill players a little less quickly than other lethal hazards, so Tenno must choose to complete objectives and clear the miasma or gamble on parkour for crossing the hazard at risk of crippling themselves for the rest of the mission.

 

     Obviously, these hazards can be expanded upon as time goes on and new ideas crop up, but the key thing here is that they are actual hazards to be avoided or combated, not inconveniences to be weathered or ignored. They should present a substantial threat to the player either damage-wise or through auxiliary effects. Additionally, hazards should be implemented in an immersive manner. Blizzards should be unique to ice-planet tiles. Sandstorms and infernos should be unique to settlement tiles. Blinding sunlight and radiation can be applied somewhat universally. Needless to say, hazard deaths should not produce a bleed-out state; they should produce death.

 

     I would like to draw special attention to pitch darkness, which can be used as an especially immersive and unique guaranteed hazard on the Galleon and Corpus Cruiser tiles to create Warhammer 40,000 Space Hulk-style Dark Sectors full of gods-know-what from gods-know-when. This would be perfect for spicing up the atmosphere to visually-pleasing but otherwise old-hat tile sets, and adding a heightened sense of danger and claustrophobia. In summary, hazards should be combined with tiles in a way that produces interesting and threatening environments for the Tenno to explore.

 

You can be anything you want when you grow up – Integrating Multiple Objectives

 

- Dark Sector Expedition will spawn objectives from most other game types: Spy, Deception, Mobile Defense, Hijack*, Raid**, Sabotage, Excavation, and Rescue***.

 

- All game type objectives will serve as interdependent secondary objectives that progress the mission or yield loot.

 

- Carrying objective-related objects now draws aggro; enemies will prioritize Tenno based on how many objects they are carrying. (e.g. Carrying all four datamasses will cause all enemies to focus completely on you, while carrying one datamass each in a team of four will result in no overall change to target priority.)

 

     In Dark Sector Expedition, players have two primary objectives: continued survival, and exploration deeper into the Dark Sector in hopes of finding loot. The only prerequisite for mission success is extraction. As such, objectives from other game types should be used to interact with the environment in a meaningful way. Perhaps a number of keys need to be retrieved from various terminals (spy) in order to open a sealed vault door (deception), or a remote hacking module must be delivered to a specific console so that Lotus can override blast shield controls and protect the Tenno from an inferno (mobile defense). Perhaps an array of decaying power cores need to be taken offline (sabotage) and life support systems need a new capacitor delivered (hijack) to cleanse the area of radiation. There are any number of ways that mission objectives can be tied together for a varied gameplay experience, and giving them a direct effect upon the immediate environment adds intrinsic value to the Tenno’s efforts. They can see how they are making a difference, rather than defending cryopod/artifact #10x10^n for some ambiguously insignificant cause.

 

     Excavation will play a special role in Dark Sector Expedition in that it will never have any direct effect on progression, but it is the most effective way for the Tenno to gather resources. Successfully defending and powering excavators will yield large resource deposits of increasing rarity and quantity. The main drawback of resource excavation is that it will take up quite a bit of time to get to the good stuff, and time in Dark Sector Expedition is a valuable commodity.

 

* Hijack will need to be modified to fit tiles other than the Grineer Shipyards, but I honestly can’t see it being horrifically out of place on Galleons or Settlements, and with time a Corpus-themed Hijack object could be added to the Cruiser and Outpost tiles.

 

** I would like to suggest bringing back the Raid objective and improving upon it; it was largely unpopular because the entire game type revolved around running from point A to B, pressing X, and then proceeding to point C. Make Raid objectives rare, but guarantee good loot; perhaps from a special drop pool. Artifacts could be represented by a back-hip mounted module, and carry with them Dragon Key-styled effects (not the same effects, and not necessarily always detrimental,) to mix things up. Carrying an artifact draws enemy aggro, but it does not prohibit the use of any particular weaponry. Artifacts must be either be actively carried when extracting in order to count for loot, but they can be dropped to escape negative effects or be passed to another teammate.

 

*** A rescue objective only in the sense that it uses the Rescue 2.0 objective setup framework; there is no actual rescue VIP because that would directly clash with the endless nature of Expedition. Instead, the enemy have located a large cache of particularly powerful artifacts, resources, or other loot that they are absolutely intent on claiming for themselves. As such, they have stationed troops at the location while they wait for a treasure transport to arrive. Think of it as the enemy being on a Defense objective. Be aware, though, that the enemy will be more intent on keeping their find out of enemy hands than successfully claiming it, so under normal Rescue 2.0 detection circumstances loot rooms (hostage cells) will either self-destruct or lock permanently. Normal spawns are interrupted while the Tenno are occupying an incomplete Rescue 2.0 tile.

           

 

A Flexible Work Schedule – Survival without the Timer

 

    I would like to believe that Survival is such a popular game mode because it offers the endless nature of Defense and the continuous action of other game types without the hassle of protecting a miscellaneous target or the interruption of wave rewards. Expedition is going to go above and beyond Survival, in that players won’t need to worry about a timer sustained by RNG drops. Instead, the relative strength of enemies is the timer. Dark Sectors are supposed to be end-game, so expect enemies to be strong. Naturally, enemies grow stronger over time and begin to spawn more rapidly. Ideally, this progression curve would be much smoother, so that players gradually feel pressured rather than suddenly finding themselves in over their heads. My advice here is to start scaling up enemy health before scaling up enemy damage (with just a small offset) so that players have a minute or two to realize that they’re taking the better part of a clip to kill a Lancer before that same Lancer starts bursting them down with a sickening degree of irony. Kind of like the Mysterious Shipment enemies, but in the reverse. They kill you more slowly, but you kill them more slowly too. Then they kill you quickly.

 

Fight or Flight Response – A New Take on Extraction

 

- Players can now extract at almost any point in time during the mission.

 

- Existing extraction points function as normal, providing instant extraction when all surviving teammates reach the area.

 

     Some of you may have noticed the potentially problematic and seemingly paradoxical situation we’ve got set up here: We’ve got an endless game mode with scaling enemies that is focused on exploration and has players moving away from the extraction point. That’s definitely not a recipe for success under existing circumstances (however easy it would be to romanticize a heroic and desperate attempt to make it back to extraction from deep within hostile territory), but don’t worry; we’ve got it covered.

 

     When playing Expedition, players are given an “Extraction Beacon” gear item. This beacon takes up the first open gear slot in a player’s inventory, or overrides the last slot if the player’s gear wheel is full (overwritten items are not lost; only inaccessible while the Extraction Beacon is being carried.) I feel like there should be some limitations on which tiles can support beacons, but which tiles those are will depend largely on what the devs find feasible. Ideally these tiles will have sections of open sky capable of fitting a Liset on outdoor tile sets, or show easy access to an exterior space when shipboard or within an asteroid. (Try to stick to tiles where Tenno will have a slightly more difficult time defending themselves.) Deploying the beacon will create a 10 meter circle that counts as a new extraction zone. However, the beacon will require time to successfully transmit a signal to the players’ Lisets, and during that time players will have to deal with moderately intensified spawns within a few tiles of the beacon. Extraction beacons last for three minutes after successful activation.

 

     What’s the point of all this? Extraction beacons make it so that players don’t have to backtrack for half an hour through increasingly difficult enemies to reach extraction. This means they can focus on exploring without a definite end-point to the mission, and they won’t be pressured to turn back right before the point of no return. The delay and increased spawns encourage players to develop a degree of intuition concerning when they need to call it quits to secure success without prohibiting players from taking gambles. In the event that all teammates fail to successfully utilize their Extraction Beacons, the beginning extraction point offers a reliable – if slim – chance of escape.

 

Oh, did you want to be paid? – Loot

 

- Dark Sectors feature small global bonuses to resource drops and affinity that intensify the deeper players manage progress.

 

- Parallel Dark Sector nodes vary in terms of how difficult they are to unlock, but offer unique node-specific multipliers. (e.g. +5% Mod Drop Rate)

 

- Dark Sectors now spawn loot rooms that access unique drop tables containing items that can’t be found or purchased outside of Dark Sectors.

 

- Raid artifacts access the same drop tables as loot rooms and offer only a single drop, but have a higher chance of accessing rarer loot.

 

- Drop pools now scale credit and resource rewards, rather than including separate items for different quantities. (e.g. 2500, 5000, and 10,000 credits are no longer separate drops; they are determined by difficulty scaling and multipliers.)

 

     Perhaps the most important admission to make at this point is that for the foreseeable future, Warframe is going to be a loot game. Dark Sector Expedition is designed to create a fresh and dynamic game experience through building off of existing foundations, not change the nature of gameplay entirely. Yes, it’d be nice to have complex and engaging enemies. Yes, it’d be nice to have tangible progression and a greater sense of purpose. It is my sincere hope that we have those things someday. Unfortunately, both of those features are going to take a lot of time, and a lot of work. Thus, the clinkies and shinies are going to be Dark Sector Expedition’s most critical features.  

           

     The parallel node progression with various multipliers serves two purposes: First, it gives players a reason to revisit old nodes rather than simply rushing to the deepest possible starting point and using that node to grind. Second, it allows for more interesting node configurations than straight lines. Dark Sectors should feel expansive, not linear, and giving them width as well as depth on the mission UI helps with that image in addition to saving space.

 

     It is important to keep in mind that Expedition is supposed to be an action-oriented end game that feels rewarding and streamlined to play. This means that most loot rooms should be encountered during normal gameplay; opened through the completion of objectives and not far off the beaten path. It is okay to have “hidden” caches here and there for true explorers to discover, but the game type itself should not feel like a blind treasure hunt. Most importantly, loot should feel like loot. Ammo Drum, Fast Hands, and Trick Mag are technically loot, but they should not be included in Dark Sector drop pools.

 

     Now, about that unique loot I mentioned. Unique Dark Sector loot items are cosmetics that can’t be acquired outside of Dark Sectors. Okay, okay. I know. Don’t look at me like that. Just hear me out. These cosmetics would be things that we the community have been asking for since… forever, but haven’t made it onto the market for one reason or another. They’re possibilities, but not priorities. Things like…

 

Relic Viper Chamber: Usable with the Viper, Twin Vipers, and Wraith Twin Vipers, this firing mechanism does not alter stats but restores the old “pew-pew” Viper firing sounds, as well as the larger bullet particles.

 

Prototype Heat Sword: This weapon skin applies glow maps to the blade of the heat sword, making the weapon seem… well, heated.

 

Relic (Warframe): A Warframe skin that adds miscellaneous nicks, scratches and other bits of wear and tear; befitting of a Warframe that has been subjected to the trials of the Dark Sector Badlands.

 

     As you can probably see, this sort of loot carries a lot of potential. It can use anything from old sounds and models to gimmicky new ideas that wouldn’t otherwise have much priority. It capitalizes on fanservice, one of Warframe’s greatest strengths, without adversely affecting the way the game plays. It will feel like loot on-par with Excalibur’s Proto-skin. This sort of loot can be endlessly expanded over time without people growing too restless, as there are other more practical things to be looted in the meantime. Perhaps it could even eventually be expanded to include PBR/non-PBR skins of weapons and other things I won’t ever manage to think of. Point being, there are tons of possibilities, and it represents a way of presenting players with meaningful loot while avoiding power-creep.

 

Special Notes to Digital Extremes: The Quintessentials

 

    So we’ve got invasions, with nodes switching hands between factions on occasion. So we’ve got Nightmare mode, with its arsenal of punishments. So we’ve got quests, which bear a vague resemblance to notionphil’s classic Cells idea. These are all features that were discussed at length amongst the community with a fair amount of approval, yet have fallen a bit short of expectations. Invasions are nothing more than giant exterminate missions on nearly indistinguishable tiles. Nightmare mode manages to introduce “challenge” in ways that virtually nobody finds fun. Your quests stand apart in that they are brilliant… but they’re one-shot wonders that can only be experienced the first time and can’t be revisited to refresh one’s memory.

 

     The same thing happened with Dark Sectors, the same thing happened with Syndicates, and I expect the same thing to happen with Focus whenever that is finally released. We’re presented with these really awesome ideas that have lots of potential and lull us into a sense of awe, but we’re ultimately left with an empty shell while you guys figure out where you want to go next and how you want to do things. Don’t get me wrong; that’s perfectly fine, and I don’t mean that as any sort of derogatory criticism. It’s just important that you can acknowledge the realities of your development practices, and understand that most of your criticism is aimed at the shortcomings of those practices. You keep getting the same criticism because you keep using the same practices. That’s a large part of why so many of your once-dedicated fans are starting to burn out. They tell you about problems, they offer you possible solutions, you tell them that you hear them and understand them, and they’ve still got nothing to show for it. Again, I’m not trying to be mean; this is just a reality check. What’s my point, then? Well, I’ve presented you with a complete idea. It’s a fully-rendered vision of what the foundations you have laid out might one day grow into.

 

     Please understand that I’m not trying to say that this suggestion is the best one out there, or that you can’t come up with something better. I’m not trying to say “look how great I am; I’ve accomplished what you couldn’t,” because I’m not, I haven’t, and I can’t. What I’m trying to say is that it seems like you’ve taken note of some good ideas flying around the community before, put your own twist on them, and we’ve got a pretty decent track record of what happens when you do. So, please, consider doing things a little differently every now and then, just to see how they turn out. Provided that by some miracle this idea of mine catches on with my fellow community members, and that by some even greater miracle it catches on with you, don’t feel too compelled to alter it in order to make it artistically “your own.” Try to keep things close to what is written here, for the simple reason that it is what the community will be able to interpret and imagine and discuss. It is what they can experience in their own minds. Your decisions concerning how to do things differently should come from which parts of this suggestion the community finds they don’t like, and which ones they do after experiencing it for themselves.

 

     So, worst-case scenario where you guys decide you have to make this completely your own to even consider it, here are a few things that you absolutely need to make this idea work:

 

- You need to have a harsh atmosphere. End-game should be harrowing and immersive. You guys have a great art style. Capitalize on drawing us into it.

 

- The game needs to be endless. Having to re-run missions gets to be quite a drag, and that’s part of what makes grinding in Warframe less bearable than in other games.

 

- Loot needs to feel valuable. I think we can all admit that loot is the lifeblood Warframe right now. It feels bad to get poor loot from what is supposed to be end-game, so just don’t do it. Please.

 

- Enemy threat level needs to start high and grow more gradually.  Players don't like having to spend forty-five minutes to challenge their top-end gear, but they also don't like getting driven out ten minutes later when scaling goes out of control.

 

- End game needs to be a comprehensive test of our skills… beyond picking cards. All of Warframe’s “challenges” revolve around picking the “right” kit with some sort of intangible precognition. It’s time for the challenge to come from our ability to actually play the game.

 

Wrapping Up

 

     From start to finish, Dark Sector Badlands and Dark Sector Expedition are aimed at giving players a place to access endless content that’s challenging from the start but not punishing, rewarding in both sense of accomplishment and practical loot, and serves the interests of both the players and the ruling clans equally well. They can hopefully serve as anything from a sustainable end game to a testing ground for new environmental effects, enemy types, and gameplay mechanics. I would love to see Dark Sectors grow alongside Warframe as it develops and expands into new territories. Alrighty. If you’re still alive and you’ve managed to slog through all of that, congratulations! I hope you’ve enjoyed exploring this vision of an end game built off of Warframe’s pre-existing mechanics as much as I have. 

 

Community Contributions

 

- Players are introduced to the new Dark Sectors through a quest that helps them expand their ship into a less-claustrophobic space, and can find ship upgrades as loot within the Dark Sectors. (grillv20)

 

- Players can find lore entries scattered about the Dark Sectors, or perhaps have lore introduced through sector-specific quests. (WiiConquered)

 

- Miniboss-type enemies befitting a Dark Sector environment appear on occasion to put players in difficult situations and introduce a degree of panic-induced tension. (WiiConquered)

 

- Player flashlights are improved for the purposes of interacting with the Pitch Darkness immersion hazard. We're Tenno! We should be using LEDs, not archaic incandescent bulbs! (gnat6)

 

- Unique "end-tiles" guaranteed to spawn at the end of each main path on a Dark Sector map, showing the Tenno that they've reached the end of the road and rewards them with things other than loot (in addition to loot, of course.) Hints at lore, fascination, awe-factor, etc. (WiiConquered)

 

- Dark Sectors have an optional and customizable Nightmare Mode, where players can pick and choose which Nightmare penalties they would like, with greater numbers of more difficult penalties yield greater rewards. Dark Sectors also offer players a unique "Eximus Only" game type, where all normal enemies during the mission are replaced with Eximi for an additional layer of difficulty. (Feallike)

 

- Syndicates can occasionally give out special missions with Syndicate-specific objectives (e.g. rescuing a group of civilian exiles for Steel Meridian) that follow the Dark Sector Expedition game type format. These missions, like other Syndicate missions ought to be, are completely optional and do not block off the node upon which they take up residence. If spawning on a Dark Sector node, the Syndicate will pay the player's passage tax for them upon completion of the mission. (Randomy)

 

- Clans in control of solar rails have the option of researching technologies that affect the modifiers associated with Dark Sector nodes, as well as additional content like game modes, difficulty multipliers, etc. (halofury36)

 

- Dark Sector taxes are reduced the deeper player progress into the Dark Sectors, given that it's harder for the resident clans to govern the fringes of their territory. Clans have the option of exploring "questionable" research trees that allow them to eliminate these tax reductions at the risk of losing favor with their supporters and inciting an attempted coup. (-ExT-Fraank)

Edited January 9, 2015 by DiabolusUrsus

[unknow99]

Looks really interesting, Ursus. Dark Sectors are indeed of of the shiny things that weren't really polished once the excitement went away. (Kubrows are part of it too.)

 

I was also really disappointed that "Badlands" were not new lands to explore.Really disappointed.

Edited November 28, 2014 by unknow99

[DiabolusUrsus]

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to read through it! I've really got my fingers crossed on this one.

[halofury36]

Definitely need some growth to make dark sectors interesting.

[grillv20]

They could even implement some sort of quest to upgrade your Liset/docking ship to travel to these deeper areas. They could make some sort of upgrade area in the new Hub docking bay hangars for upgrade maybe? I am really interested in the idea of the whole space exploration and seeing my ship grow as I venture further into the unknown. I know that this is sort of silly but I think that having a less cramped ship in the end would be a great incentive for those that just aren't exactly into whatever the badlands have to offer. Like, maybe our ship needs higher fuel reserves to be able to venture to these further edges of our galaxy.

 

tl;dr explore badlands, get materials together, get ancient orokin ship tech,  upgrade ship WHILE getting crazy sweet cosmetic items.

Edited November 29, 2014 by grillv20

[DiabolusUrsus]

They could even implement some sort of quest to upgrade your Liset/docking ship to travel to these deeper areas. They could make some sort of upgrade area in the new Hub docking bay hangars for upgrade maybe? I am really interested in the idea of the whole space exploration and seeing my ship grow as I venture further into the unknown. I know that this is sort of silly but I think that having a less cramped ship in the end would be a great incentive for those that just aren't exactly into whatever the badlands have to offer. Like, maybe our ship needs higher fuel reserves to be able to venture to these further edges of our galaxy.

 

tl;dr explore badlands, get materials together, get ancient orokin ship tech,  upgrade ship WHILE getting crazy sweet cosmetic items.

 

I... really like the sound of that. Forgotten areas of space seem like the perfect place to find previously-unknown Orokin upgrades, and I have to say that upgrading our ships was not something I had even considered possible. Perhaps they could implement this as a sort of introductory quest to prime players on the new exploration system, a la Vor's Prize? It would be pretty cool to see convenience plugins included as rare loot, too. Ship cosmetics, even! 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I love this idea. I can imagine myself spending time down in dark, hollow corridors looking for loot.

 

I'm probably asking for too much out of one idea, but maybe there could be lore involved too? Imagine the Prime Codex entries we see, but instead of obtaining them through that we can find them throughout the environment or by completing certain versions of your objectives. They'd offer details on the plans and actions of all the factions present or mentioned in the game.

 

And (I'm definitely asking for too much now) but there could be a chance of certain enemies appearing that are miniboss like. Imagine something like Phorid chasing players through a dark hallway, but at the end there's the lava trap, and now the players must turn and face the beast. I would give them slow attacks and make those attacks avoidable, but if a player gets caught by more than a few it would be deadly.

[Phaenur]

With regards to loot, I really think that that needs to be consistent with what the Dark Sectors are supposed to be.  Did the Orokin settle these places back in the day?  Then maybe Prime parts or void keys are okay.  If they were just exploring, the same way we are, then Grillv20's idea about Liset customizations makes a lot of sense - we'd be finding leftover probes, crash sites, maybe even salvageable ships.  Plus there's the stuff from Grineer and Corpus explorers who've shown up more recently - I was thinking that some of the first-generation Fomorians might have been sent out on expeditions themselves after we cleaned house way back in Slingstone.  Imagine how annoyed - and battle-hardened - any landing parties that've been out there permanently would have to be!

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

What about Vandal/Wraith weapon blueprints and parts being obtainable in the Badlands? Skins? All the alert rewards? Perhaps even Vault weapons?

 

And maybe your thread (which I think would be very popular if everyone weren't afraid to read it all) could be helped by pictures. Help us see what you're imagining!

[gnat6]

I really like this idea it is quite similar to what I was hoping for when badlands were first announced except much more fleshed out although there are a few additional things I would like to see.

 

My first suggestion is for the pitch darkness hazard I would like it if the flashlights we used to have on the old infested missions were added back into the game

 

Or alternate flashlight idea 1 make the flashlights brighter but with a much narrower cone so you can see anything you are aiming at much better but the rest of your screen is completely dark

 

And alternate flashlight idea 2 is make the flashlights adjustable so that you can chose between a wide and shallow light or a narrow and deep light which I would prefer but it would take a lot more work to implement.

 

And the second thing I would like to see although this has a very low priority is abandoned versions of the dark sector tilesets so like for the corpus ship tileset all the lights would be out and you would only have occasional emergency lights at best and everything would have a decayed look to it kind of like the void verses the derelicts and you could have a modified version of extraction and deception where you would be trying to restore power to parts of the ship to open up new areas

 

and for the shipyard tileset I picture it with the conveyer belts stopped from a lack of power and the ships rusting and falling apart from the harsh atmosphere (and bonus points if we can see parts of the factory and ships that have melted into the pools of toxic sludge) and just like with the derelicts you can use decayed parts of the ship to open up new paths that you are not able to travel on in the normal version of the tileset.

 

Anyways just to make myself clear I think that your dark sector idea is great as is I am just suggesting things that I think would be cool to see.

[DiabolusUrsus]

I love this idea. I can imagine myself spending time down in dark, hollow corridors looking for loot.

 

I'm probably asking for too much out of one idea, but maybe there could be lore involved too? Imagine the Prime Codex entries we see, but instead of obtaining them through that we can find them throughout the environment or by completing certain versions of your objectives. They'd offer details on the plans and actions of all the factions present or mentioned in the game.

 

And (I'm definitely asking for too much now) but there could be a chance of certain enemies appearing that are miniboss like. Imagine something like Phorid chasing players through a dark hallway, but at the end there's the lava trap, and now the players must turn and face the beast. I would give them slow attacks and make those attacks avoidable, but if a player gets caught by more than a few it would be deadly.

 

I think you could rephrase to "I'm probably asking for too much *on release,* but neither of those ideas sound ridiculous to me. It'd be great to find little lore entries throughout the Dark Sectors as we explore forgotten outposts or the wreckage of doomed ships, and I think it is imperative for the Dark Sectors themselves to have lore. No, I don't mean current story lore like our ongoing ordeal with Salad V. I mean actual background lore that gives us a better understanding of the game universe.

 

Miniboss-type enemies are also something I would love to see in general, not just in the Dark Sectors. I've got a bit of hope for the upcoming Community contest enemies, but I'm trying not to let my hopes get too high. The recent addition of dynamic enemy accuracy is a bit encouraging, though! As far as Dark Sectors are concerned, I would even like to see the Sectors get their own unique enemies... powerful wildlife, perhaps, to give off the impression that these areas of space truly are unexplored. Of course, it'd be good to come across the occasional Grineer or Corpus scouting party, or nest of Infested as well. 

 

With regards to loot, I really think that that needs to be consistent with what the Dark Sectors are supposed to be.  Did the Orokin settle these places back in the day?  Then maybe Prime parts or void keys are okay.  If they were just exploring, the same way we are, then Grillv20's idea about Liset customizations makes a lot of sense - we'd be finding leftover probes, crash sites, maybe even salvageable ships.  Plus there's the stuff from Grineer and Corpus explorers who've shown up more recently - I was thinking that some of the first-generation Fomorians might have been sent out on expeditions themselves after we cleaned house way back in Slingstone.  Imagine how annoyed - and battle-hardened - any landing parties that've been out there permanently would have to be!

 

I've thought of looking at the presence of Orokin tech in "unexplored" areas of space in a number of ways. Perhaps some Dark Sectors encompass old Orokin settlements, or the sectors themselves are akin to the Bermuda Triangle; areas with a disturbing number of disappearances. The wreckage and loot we find should be more than enough to explain what happened along the way. This effect wouldn't be limited to the Orokin, either, and would explain the occasional faction-specific presences we run across. 

 

 

*snip*

 

Absolutely! Pitch Darkness should not leave the Tenno completely blind without recourse, and I would also like to see improvements made to Tenno Flashlights. The main idea behind this hazard is creating atmosphere, and that the game type itself should be dangerous enough to make the Tenno want to have the lights on. 

 

As for additional tile sets, you have my complete agreement. The main thread simply limited tile sets to ones that could be utilized with little to no actual preparation; I'm guessing that a complete conversion of the shipyards to a static version would involve more work than simply disabling water on Earth. But what do I know? 

 

 

And maybe your thread (which I think would be very popular if everyone weren't afraid to read it all) could be helped by pictures. Help us see what you're imagining!

 

Noted and agreed, though I'm not much of an artist and I'm coming up on finals in a few weeks. I'll see what I can do about making a few simple diagrams of some of the simpler concepts, though.

Edited November 29, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Noted and agreed, though I'm not much of an artist and I'm coming up on finals in a few weeks. I'll see what I can do about making a few simple diagrams of some of the simpler concepts, though.

 

Even if they're just taken from other media sources you've seen already they could be helpful. It's just another way of allowing people unwilling to read everything to see your ideas, because they're fantastic.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

This is pretty interesting and I'd love to see this, but I'm not sure if infinite exploration is possible under the methods you explained. If the map is continually expanding the game may not be able to handle the size of it at some point. In most games with near infinite dungeon diving the map is separated into instances. Maybe a bunch of sections, each of a pretty decent size, would allow for the same feeling of exploration without the game collapsing in on itself.

[DiabolusUrsus]

This is pretty interesting and I'd love to see this, but I'm not sure if infinite exploration is possible under the methods you explained. If the map is continually expanding the game may not be able to handle the size of it at some point. In most games with near infinite dungeon diving the map is separated into instances. Maybe a bunch of sections, each of a pretty decent size, would allow for the same feeling of exploration without the game collapsing in on itself.

 

Well, as much as I'd like to see it too, I don't think that the exploration factor of Dark Sectors could be truly infinite, either, hence the inclusion of multiple nodes. Each node lets the game generate another map (albeit with a return to the ship) to be explored. When I talk about an endless game type, I mean that the mission itself doesn't end until the players decide to leave, or they fail. 

The idea here is that the game generates a very large map that will take players a rather long time to explore, considering they're going to have to fight for nearly every inch of ground they cover, so to speak. They're blockaded by hazards, locked doors, and other obstructions, and they need to spend time completing objectives to open up paths. The process will be gradual, and they'll be under constant attack from relatively powerful enemies that only grow stronger. This is partly why it's so important to have multiple directions of exploration available from the start. Perhaps a skilled group will be able to fully complete one branch of the path, but then they'll need to return to a fork in the road and start all over again in a different direction. Ideally the enemies grow strong enough to drive players away before they manage to explore every inch of the available tiles, but in the event that this does not happen it would indeed be possible to explore the entirety of the map. As much as that would suck for immersion, there are hard limits that need to be worked with, as you pointed out. 

 

Of course, if DE can implement some sort of dynamic map generator that creates tiles as players progress, that'd be just perfect. If they could develop some sort of dynamic objective generator that allows players to continue collecting objective loot, that would also be useful. For the time being, though, they'll just have to stick to generating massive maps guarded by powerful enemies that take ages to explore and fully loot. 

In other words, the map is not endless, but the supply of enemies is. It'd be cool if we could somehow have endless maps, though. 

[Phaenur]

When I first imagined this I thought of it including truly infinite maps that added tiles as players got to a point one or two before them, and then erased ones that were far enough out of reach, but I don't think that's feasible with the code and computing power at hand.  It would be truly amazing if they could pull it off, but even then I'm not convinced most computers could actually run that sort of game.

 

I'm content to have huge numbers of enemies, LoS-obscuring hazards, and tilesets that have a lot going on in each room.  Rescue 2.0 chambers and the Earth tileset in general - especially the Sabotage and Interception objective rooms - are a great example of this.  There's a lot of change in elevation, a mix of natural environment and structures left over from whoever was there first, and a lot of little hidey-holes that may or may not be intentional.  Still probably a pain in the processor, but nowhere near as bad as an infinite map generator would probably be.

 

As for "running out" of room to explore, if you're that good/lucky?  Well, hey, you've reached the end of a canyon, or the edge of a cliff, or whatever.  The nav coordinate gives you a good idea of where to land next time to keep your exploration coherent while still bypassing the obstacle.  Actually, I think clifftop overlooks are a great natural end to a branch of a Dark Sector - you can "see" "where" you'll be next time while still understanding that the playable map ends here.  Valley walls are similar, though not quite as smooth, but it would be a little too obvious to have everything end in a canyon or crevasse.

 

Just...please, for the love of Lady Lotus, don't let Dark Sector paths end in simple red doors.  Maybe on Space Hulk maps, maybe.  But never, never on "natural" ones.  If there's a red door somewhere along the path, some objective or other will end up opening it.  Please.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

-snip-

 

Cool. That makes sense.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

When I first imagined this I thought of it including truly infinite maps that added tiles as players got to a point one or two before them, and then erased ones that were far enough out of reach, but I don't think that's feasible with the code and computing power at hand.  It would be truly amazing if they could pull it off, but even then I'm not convinced most computers could actually run that sort of game.

 

I'm content to have huge numbers of enemies, LoS-obscuring hazards, and tilesets that have a lot going on in each room.  Rescue 2.0 chambers and the Earth tileset in general - especially the Sabotage and Interception objective rooms - are a great example of this.  There's a lot of change in elevation, a mix of natural environment and structures left over from whoever was there first, and a lot of little hidey-holes that may or may not be intentional.  Still probably a pain in the processor, but nowhere near as bad as an infinite map generator would probably be.

 

As for "running out" of room to explore, if you're that good/lucky?  Well, hey, you've reached the end of a canyon, or the edge of a cliff, or whatever.  The nav coordinate gives you a good idea of where to land next time to keep your exploration coherent while still bypassing the obstacle.  Actually, I think clifftop overlooks are a great natural end to a branch of a Dark Sector - you can "see" "where" you'll be next time while still understanding that the playable map ends here.  Valley walls are similar, though not quite as smooth, but it would be a little too obvious to have everything end in a canyon or crevasse.

 

Just...please, for the love of Lady Lotus, don't let Dark Sector paths end in simple red doors.  Maybe on Space Hulk maps, maybe.  But never, never on "natural" ones.  If there's a red door somewhere along the path, some objective or other will end up opening it.  Please.

 

Imagine if every map ended with tiles that couldn't appear anywhere else, like the wreckage of an Orokin ship or maybe even Sentient... something. Something that rewards us in more ways than loot for getting to the end.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Unique Dark Sector end tiles would be absolutely amazing. Obviously something to be included later, and as they are ready, but I'd definitely want to see that. You're just full of amazing little detail-additions, aren't you? I like it. 

[Phaenur]

I really had Metroid in mind when I first visualized this, especially Metroid Prime - Hek, the very first mental image I had was basically the Tallon IV Overworld.  And Metroid Prime Echoes was really, really good about that "vista of the next mission" sort of thing since the hub was on a huge mesa.  For that matter, this system would lend itself to numerous tilesets and hazard types from one mission to the next as we find shortcuts and traversals through, say, the side of a mountain or a hole in a glacier.  It'd really keep the art team busy, though!

 

Honestly, though, Metroid is a great example of just about everything we're trying to do here.  Sure, Samus is pretty much a warrior deity by the end of each game, but she, like the Tenno, always has to tread carefully since the enemies tend to get stronger or more diverse at the same rate she does (high initial challenge, slow even growth).  The maps, 2D or 3D, have always been very good at creating whatever atmosphere the design team wants, whether that's Fusion's borderline survival horror or Prime 3's eldritch mutated terrain...or pretty much anything Warframe's come up with (immersion through visuals).  And she, like us, has always been surprisingly mobile, lending to creative combat scenarios and unexpectedly large and complex rooms with hidden loot to take full advantage of the Space Jump/parkour mechanics.  I think DE could do way worse than to look at that franchise as an example of how to wring the most out of an Expedition gametype.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Okay, well, I've tried adding relevant images to the OP, but it seems the img tag hates me because they display fine in the previews up until they go live. Then we get a missing image icon or some such.

 

With regards to the ongoing hubbub over the new Infested units adding a tad too much CC to the faction, some of you may be wondering how these will stack up with Eximi and visual impairment environmental hazards. This may turn out to be a bit of a questionable decision, but I think that Eximi should not spawn during Dark Sector Expedition. Why? Well, the enemies should be threatening enough on their own that the Eximi are unneeded. I would also like for their intended niche to be filled by the miniboss type enemies suggested by WiiConquered. As for the Infested themselves, I think simply removing the Shockwave MOA ability from the Swarm and Tar MOAs and improving our ability to remove infestation clouds would be enough. For the time being, anyway. Still need to solidify my thoughts on this a bit more.

 

Point being, your enemies in Expedition should be the environment and enemy resilience, not excessive quantities of CC. 

[grillv20]

I would honestly like to see new monsters in the badlands. That is probably asking for too much most likely but hey. lol

[DiabolusUrsus]

No, you have my absolute agreement on that! I really want to see the enemies develop into their own faction... an expansion of the wildlife faction, if you will, with small parties of elite Grineer/Corpus showing up from time to time and the occasional nest of Infestation. I want the environment itself to be threatening and oppressive, and the enemies themselves to be a facet of the environment. I envision a completed Dark Sector as something of a deathworld... where everything wants to kill you. 

[Phaenur]

In the context of these new Infested, I'd say we need to be kind of careful with just how close and immediately threatening the enviro hazards are.  Grineer and Corpus are fine, but Infested just have so much going on on the screen at any given second that I could see players blundering into a cloud and getting fried or flash-frozen without realizing it was even there.  After all, I've been doing the exact same thing with sandstorm hazards in Guns of Icarus with much, much less of an excuse.

 

The alternative, of course, would be dialing back Infested visual effects and making sure that other factions and beasts don't get too out of hand in the future.  But considering how many different things the Infested do have going on, I can't really condone taking away the one indication we have that there's an Ancient nearby before we're too deep into the swarm to recover.

 

In the context of Dark Sectors, this is definitely another argument in favor of adding more beasts, from mini(?)bosses to little critters like the sand skate.  But that would add even more work on top of the amount we've suggested here and keep the art team doubly busy, and besides, people are used to Dark Sectors meaning Infested at some point.  We'll see what changes DE makes to the Infested after the feedback from this event; hopefully there'll be nothing to worry about in tilesets with blinding light or pitch darkness or low-lying clouds.

 

Hek, just as an amusing little thought - would Swarm muta-MOAs even really matter when all you've got is your flashlight anyway?  Kind of comes down to the same thing - mash E until you can roll to get rid of them.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

In the context of these new Infested, I'd say we need to be kind of careful with just how close and immediately threatening the enviro hazards are.  Grineer and Corpus are fine, but Infested just have so much going on on the screen at any given second that I could see players blundering into a cloud and getting fried or flash-frozen without realizing it was even there.  After all, I've been doing the exact same thing with sandstorm hazards in Guns of Icarus with much, much less of an excuse.

 

The alternative, of course, would be dialing back Infested visual effects and making sure that other factions and beasts don't get too out of hand in the future.  But considering how many different things the Infested do have going on, I can't really condone taking away the one indication we have that there's an Ancient nearby before we're too deep into the swarm to recover.

 

In the context of Dark Sectors, this is definitely another argument in favor of adding more beasts, from mini(?)bosses to little critters like the sand skate.  But that would add even more work on top of the amount we've suggested here and keep the art team doubly busy, and besides, people are used to Dark Sectors meaning Infested at some point.  We'll see what changes DE makes to the Infested after the feedback from this event; hopefully there'll be nothing to worry about in tilesets with blinding light or pitch darkness or low-lying clouds.

 

Hek, just as an amusing little thought - would Swarm muta-MOAs even really matter when all you've got is your flashlight anyway?  Kind of comes down to the same thing - mash E until you can roll to get rid of them.

 

I think your partner's solution, not spawning eximi, could be expanded to not spawning Ancients. That might be enough, and I imagine (PS4 player, I don't know for sure) the new units are enough to make the Infested a credible threat without them.

[DiabolusUrsus]

*snip*

 

While I'm not trying to disregard that potential problem, I think it should be more a matter of making the hazards very obvious - both through strong visual and audio cues - so that players have at least some degree of awareness of them even when their vision is clouded. I think players are at the biggest risk of being thrown into the hazard by CC attacks, and I think that's fair. End-game players should be expected to fight with a sufficient degree of situational awareness, and it's not like the enemies are unaffected by the hazards either. If the player can throw them in, they'll die as well. So if you choose to fight next to a hazard, it's a bit of a gambit. 

 

I think your partner's solution, not spawning eximi, could be expanded to not spawning Ancients. That might be enough, and I imagine (PS4 player, I don't know for sure) the new units are enough to make the Infested a credible threat without them.

 

I don't think that stripping the Infested of their most important support units is the best idea when the goal is to make sure they're challenging. I'm suggesting a ban on Eximi precisely because the Infested Eximi don't actually serve any support purpose; they leech your energy, but Disruptors already do that. Then they have this ridiculous AOE attack that usually just gibs your Sentinel, and a really cheesy version of the Toxic Ancient that can play poison tag without touching you. All of those are both unfair and annoying, but the main reason I don't want eximi spawning is their ridiculously beefed up stats. They're easily two-to-three times as difficult to kill as their normal unit counterparts, and that difference will be especially noticeable when Dark Sector enemies are already strong. In that sense, eximi are both unneeded and unwanted.

 

As for the ancients... I think they should stay. Sure, their grapples are annoying, and their auras are dangerous, but without them the Infested just never become a real threat (unless you've got a Defense objective and no CC.) What I think would be reasonable, though, is if Ancient spawn rates were reduced and limited. For example, no more than 4 ancients at one time for solo players, no more than 12 for a full squad.