Thoughts About Immortality...

[Dawn11715]

(Science+Logic) Why We All Could Be Reborn Endlessly

 

 

Ok, the following theory only depends on statistics and an important question, that no one can answer right now, BUT it could be the reason why EVERYONES exsistence is endless.

Lets do this step by step.

Question one: What are we?

Answer: (Strings?)/ Atoms/ molecules  put into an specific order

Question two (the importnt one): is time infinite?

So and hers the point, where its decided, the may most important question of all times:

 

As Matter seems to be limmited, therefore our universe is consisting of a limmited ammount of atoms (yes its expanding, but just because there is more space where matter can fly around, doesn't mean, thers actually more of it and even if: no one knows if this expandation lasts forever).

Therefore the number of possible combinations of these Atoms is also limmited, meaning when time is unlimmited, there will be the day, where some of this combinations will get repeated (as our Bodys).

It could take ridiculous ammounts of time, numbers that cant even written in exponential form, not even talking about writing them down normaly, but one day, after our sun exploded, maybe even our galaxy is gone somehow , we could -no- we would be reborne and as time is infinite, we would be reborn up to an endless number of times, would be able to get every single possible experience over and over again, without an end in sight.

 

I guess quantum mechanics support this theory, as they state that matter and enegy can show up out of nothing (only very small amounts) related an statistic proceses.

Fim im understanding this right, then there is a minimal, unbeleavable small chance even makroscopic objekts (like we are) can start exsisting out of the nothing. As before numbers don't care us, cause everything is noting compared to infinity but im not deep enough into this quantum stuff to seriously talk about it. The only thing shure is, that it shouldn't affect my theorie negativly.

 

Now to the last point:

Things that could ruin my theory:

1.Time isn't infinite, whole universe is lost.

2.universe never stops expanding, matter gets sepperated too far, so there arent any solarsystems, we could live in.

3. "Wärmetod des Universums"= over billions on years, every form of energy turns into heat, so no live could exsist.

 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dawn11715

[Snydrex]

But according to Stephen Hawking, it's entirely possible there exists an infinite number of universes, and therefore, an infinite amount of matter. Also, time is simply an illusion caused by human inability to perceive everything at once. As much of a variable as it can be, it's length can't be determined by today's current scientific paradigms, in area or length.

 

The multiverse expanding could be an issue, but we don't know where from or how long, in that accord. The big bang is an accepted theory of how the universe was created, but I'm going to say, hypothetically, that there's more then one universe out there, with more variations of this supposed "rebirth" cycle you're talking about. By that logic, what you theorize as happening could actually be happening nonstop, from a period in based time far beyond us.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Snydrex

[DLVargas]

I foresee entropy as being the biggest enemy of theories like this, as things inevitably become less orderly as time wears on, and since we cannot truly know if time is infinite, it would be mostly speculation. Of course if it is possible mathematically, then the numbers could give us an idea.

 

Also with the matter/energy thing coming from seemingly nothing, is the theory that this is new matter that didn't exist before, or is it repurposed from existence? I thought that all the matter and energy in the Universe was constant?

[Dawn11715]

But according to Stephen Hawking, it's entirely possible there exists an infinite number of universes, and therefore, an infinite amount of matter. Also, time is simply an illusion caused by human inability to perceive everything at once. As much of a variable as it can be, it's length can't be determined by today's current scientific paradigms, in area or length.

 

The multiverse expanding could be an issue, but we don't know where from or how long, in that accord. The big bang is an accepted theory of how the universe was created, but I'm going to say, hypothetically, that there's more then one universe out there, with more variations of this supposed "rebirth" cycle you're talking about. By that logic, what you theorize as happening could actually be happening nonstop, from a period in based time far beyond us.

Even if there are multible univererses, as long as they are independent of the one we live in, there exsistance won't affect us.

Also you can't realy say wwhat time really is, as averything we sense is bound to the way of our esistence, therefore not objektive.

Mathematicly, you can describe time as an forth vector, additional to the three vectors of room (3 dimensions).

it doesn't realy matter, what it is, as long as this vector is infinit.

[Kestral9999]

Apparently Off Topic becomes much more existentialist when I'm not on. Where are these topics when I'm bored at work all day xD

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kestral9999

[Dawn11715]

I foresee entropy as being the biggest enemy of theories like this, as things inevitably become less orderly as time wears on, and since we cannot truly know if time is infinite, it would be mostly speculation. Of course if it is possible mathematically, then the numbers could give us an idea.

 

Also with the matter/energy thing coming from seemingly nothing, is the theory that this is new matter that didn't exist before, or is it repurposed from existence? I thought that all the matter and energy in the Universe was constant?

well as already stated im not this deep in this quantum stuff but i know matter can be strart exsisting out of nothing. Maybe it vanishes on an other place, so both theories could be true.

 

Now to your fist point: The beautifull on my theorie is that numbers really dont care, as long as they arent zero or infinite. We are talking about possibilitys so therefor if they arent zero and get multiplicated with infinite, we get infinite again, meaning they are happening an infinite ammount of time, no metter how unreal small they seem.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dawn11715

[Snydrex]

Even if there are multible univererses, as long as they are independent of the one we live in, there exsistance won't affect us.

Also you can't realy say wwhat time really is, as averything we sense is bound to the way of our esistence, therefore not objektive.

Mathematicly, you can describe time as an forth vector, additional to the three vectors of room (3 dimensions).

it doesn't realy matter, what it is, as long as this vector is infinit.

I wasn't using our senses as a measuring stick, here. In layman's terms, from a grandiose scale, time barely exists. It's inaccurate to call it a vector, based on what we know now. But by your logic, this makes perfect sense. Existence can, and will, given unlimited based time, create life from nothing. In that sense, we are, if you're correct, technically immortal. But that, in itself, is a big "What-if".

Edited December 15, 2014 by Snydrex

[Dawn11715]

I wasn't using our senses as a measuring stick, here. In layman's terms, from a grandiose scale, time barely exists. It's inaccurate to call it a vector, based on what we know now. But by your logic, this makes perfect sense. Existence can, and will, given unlimited based time, create life from nothing. In that sense, we are, if you're correct, technically immortal. But that, in itself, is a big "What-if".

I never said there wasn't this big "what if" i even stated reasons, why this may not work. All i wanted to show is that there is an posibility.

Something even a godless man like me can hope off ^^ 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dawn11715

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

even if we exist a 2nd time, what's about our conciousness? is this copy really the same person or just a copy? even if it leads the exact same life, it still would have no knowledge of it's past iteration, it's merely another iteration. maybe we're already iterations. interesting question but i if you want to achieve immortality it would have to be tied to your conciousness, not your body.

[JefPlays]

I thought this was gonna be about actual immortality, not weird metaphysical stuff

[Dawn11715]

I thought this was gonna be about actual immortality, not weird metaphysical stuff

its more statistics i guess^^

[Guest]

Immortality how, exactly? Because there seem to be different conceptions of it. The way you propose it, with us being eventually re-created, doesn't seem to take into account the issue of the continuity of consciousness. Would that "new us" be really "us", or a copy of "us" with no connected consciousness?

EDIT: I mean, consider it from a perspective of personal experience.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Guest

[Dawn11715]

even if we exist a 2nd time, what's about our conciousness? is this copy really the same person or just a copy? even if it leads the exact same life, it still would have no knowledge of it's past iteration, it's merely another iteration. maybe we're already iterations. interesting question but i if you want to achieve immortality it would have to be tied to your conciousness, not your body.

 

Same problem as beaming, isn't it?

As i dont believe in souls as metaphysik objekts i say yes.

A person that has the simmular atoms in simmular order is me.

If not, then who am I?

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dawn11715

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Same problem as beaming, isn't it?

As i dont believe in souls as metaphysik objekts i say yes.

A person that has the simmular atoms in simmular order is me.

If not, then who am I?

i don't believe in the soul either, but if we clone you and kill you, it still wouldn't be you. even if your conciousness would've been copied on the clone, yours would end... and therefore your life

Edited December 15, 2014 by MortalSin

[Dawn11715]

Immortality how, exactly? Because there seem to be different conceptions of it. The way you propose it, with us being eventually re-created, doesn't seem to take into account the issue of the continuity of consciousness. Would that "new us" be really "us", or a copy of "us" with no connected consciousness?

EDIT: I mean, consider it from a perspective of personal experience.

This may shock you, but if this future versions, pontentioly living exact the same life as you did arent you, then how can you be sure to be yourself?

With every move you make, your Body and your mind changes a little.

How can you be sure to not die and be replaced every fraction of a secound you live? 

[Dawn11715]

i don't believe in the soul either, but if we clone you and kill you, it still wouldn't be you. even if your conciousness would've been copied on the clone, yours would end... and therefore your life

a clone is a new person, made of my DNA.  He aint got my live or anything exept that.

You think to small.

Think of beeing recreated under ecactly the same conditions as in your first live.

Sounds weird? unrealistic? 

remember someone like you get created an infinite amount of time.

As there must be something, that makes you to... well yourself i guess^^

one of this guys will be you, just hav to be you.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

This may shock you, but if this future versions, pontentioly living exact the same life as you did arent you, then how can you be sure to be yourself?

With every move you make, your Body and your mind changes a little.

How can you be sure to not die and be replaced every fraction of a secound you live? 

regenerating cells don't really matter. as long as your conciousness exists without "gaps", it's the same instance. you're really just an instance of your consiousness, if you want to put it like that, and if your body ceases to exist so do you. of course copys wouldn't be harmed by any means and it wouldn't make any difference for anyone except you, cause you, as an instance of yourself, cease to exist. yeah, it's the teleportation problem. 

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

a clone is a new person, made of my DNA.  He aint got my live or anything exept that.

You think to small.

Think of beeing recreated under ecactly the same conditions as in your first live.

Sounds weird? unrealistic? 

remember someone like you get created an infinite amount of time.

As there must be something, that makes you to... well yourself i guess^^

one of this guys will be you, just hav to be you.

i get your point but your conciousness is still disconnected. let's take your assumptions and look at it like that: time is infinite. maybe an exact copy of our universe already existed (not so unlikely with infinite time right?). it went through exactly the same development. yet you don't know the numbers for the next lottery, although everything happened already before. cause copys still aren't the same thing.

[Guest]

This may shock you, but if this future versions, pontentioly living exact the same life as you did arent you, then how can you be sure to be yourself?

With every move you make, your Body and your mind changes a little.

How can you be sure to not die and be replaced every fraction of a secound you live? 

 

I can't be sure of anything but my personal existance and that I perceive an "external" world that is in an essential way separate from this personal experience. I might have been created this very instant with the memories of past events, which is a fairly old concept by now, but I am not seeing how this is relevant to the discussion at hand... are you suggesting there would be a continuity of consciousness with these "future us"?

[Snydrex]

even if we exist a 2nd time, what's about our conciousness? is this copy really the same person or just a copy? even if it leads the exact same life, it still would have no knowledge of it's past iteration, it's merely another iteration. maybe we're already iterations. interesting question but i if you want to achieve immortality it would have to be tied to your conciousness, not your body.

We're talking about technical "immortality" here.

[Dawn11715]

regenerating cells don't really matter. as long as your conciousness exists without "gaps", it's the same instance. you're really just an instance of your consiousness, if you want to put it like that, and if your body ceases to exist so do you. of course copys wouldn't be harmed by any means and it wouldn't make any difference for anyone except you, cause you, as an instance of yourself, cease to exist. yeah, it's the teleportation problem. 

What is it, your conciousness? what makes it yours? if your heart stops beating youre dead. If someon revieves you or an exact copy up to the last molecule, who of these are you?

[Guest]

What is it, your conciousness? what makes it yours? if your heart stops beating youre dead. If someon revieves you or an exact copy up to the last molecule, who of these are you?

 

The first two questions are those that have to be answered first to have any meaningful argument (that is, not pure speculation) about immortality from the standpoint of personal experience.

 

After that, I'll just point out that being dead is far more complicated than the heart just stopping. On a daily basis, surgeons around the world stop people's hearts to perform surgery on them, and then re-start them.

[Dawn11715]

maybe we should first anwser to our selves: what is living and what is conciousness.

 

 

Edit:Ninjad^^

Edited December 16, 2014 by Dawn11715

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

We're talking about technical "immortality" here.

technically it's easy, death is whenever your biological functions cease to work. which would happen if you die and another copy of yourself happens to exist an unbelievably long time after you died.

 

What is it, your conciousness? what makes it yours? if your heart stops beating youre dead. If someon revieves you or an exact copy up to the last molecule, who of these are you?

that's the problem, it's currently unknown how exactly our conciousness works, the brain has still tons of secrets. i could tell you however that an exact copy of myself up to the last molecule still wouldn't be me, at least from my perspective cause... well i don't have a perspective anymore. nothing would change from yours on the other hand.

 

EDIT: i guess perspective is a very important thing in this. the term immortality has to apply to conciousness because taking your premise into account (reoccuring copys), the biological definition of death is met (even multiple times), therefore physical immortality doesn't apply.

 

EDIT2: god damnit, i have to go to bed. 4 hours of sleep aren't really enough... damn you OP! 

Edited December 16, 2014 by MortalSin

[Dawn11715]

 

After that, I'll just point out that being dead is far more complicated than the heart just stopping. On a daily basis, surgeons around the world stop people's hearts to perform surgery on them, and then re-start them.

 

Thats was argument, conciousness gets interrupted very often in this world, so just having t interrupted is no valid reason for your exsistance to end.