Proposed Solution To Deal With 'press 4 To Win'

[Juebev]

 

So you see no problem with #4 spam? When a whole game literally consists of coptering into a room, pressing 4 and coptering out. If some one left alive just press #4 two more times.

 

 

Nice over-exaggeration, I can almost hear the music to Inception playing in the background while reading your post.

[fatpig84]

@ OP. if you equate enjoyment to how many kills you get, I strongly suggest you to either drop that notion or don't play support frames.

You will absolutely kill yourself when playing as Trinity. Nekros or even Frost. 

 

 

Fact is some frames are designed to kill but are extremely vulnerable during their setup. 

 

For every Mesa that score thousands of kills in a void def, there is a Frost doing the thankless job of buffing Mesa damage output with the augment and keeping a nice globe on her head to cover her tender arse. And of course, he will be the first one popping those void nullifier shields too, so Mesa can do her job.

 

 

For every Excalibur that cleans house in Stephano / Kiste / Kappa / Draco etc. There is a Trinity force feeding him energy and remembering to cast blessing the moment his 300/300 vulnerable self takes a hit. And the Trinity player might not even see 20 kills to his name.  And yes I have done work as an EV trinity, it definitely requires intense micro especially if you got 2 to 3 nukers going off. So much so that I no longer trust pub trinities and if I am rept farming, I always offer to do Trinity first. :p

 

 

And oh, how about the team that goes for the 2 hour survival ?

It is nekros that is your man. I have done my fair share of 1 hour survival with me as Nekros and me pressing 3 for a very very long time.

Again little kills or damage to my name, but I am satisfied, because I done my job.

 

 

So yeah, if you equate your enjoyment to kills, please grab a DPS frame and don't look back.

Counter their 4 spam with your own 4 spam, but don't ever play a support class.

 

You can't cut it.

Edited December 18, 2014 by fatpig84

[Temmron]

My suggestion is leave 4towin and add more enemies with innate skill resistances that are vulnerable to certain skills but not all.

[snark]

For people saying OP is *@##$ing because he can't 4towin, himself, I Saryn copter a hell of a lot since it's the most time efficient way to play most missions and most missions are boring or need to be repeated numerous times to be rewarded... I think press4towin is a problem of lazy game design (including enemy ai/design, not just lazy class abilities and mod power creep). Modifying the game mechanics of 4towin rather than just breaking mechanics with nullifiers will help but enemies will still be mindless, slow and swarmy and that issue should be addressed at the same time.

 

Oh yeah, and wouldn't it be DELIGHTFUL if there were HIGH LEVEL CONTENT for us to use all those r10 and l10 mods on instead of completely destroying everything non-endless from merc to T4 that isn't under a mechanic breaking cheatbubble?

 

nevermind.
 

For every Excalibur that cleans house in Stephano / Kiste / Kappa / Draco etc. There is a Trinity force feeding him energy and remembering to cast blessing the moment his 300/300 vulnerable self takes a hit.

I play the trinity in that equation but steph gives enough polymer to use energy restores rather than evie trin.

 

 

My suggestion is leave 4towin and add more enemies with innate skill resistances that are vulnerable to certain skills but not all.

seems like that's making some enemies exempt from game mechanics rather than fixing game mechanics, just like nullifier cheatbubbles.

Edited December 18, 2014 by BioSnark

[V0LK]

Nice over-exaggeration, I can almost hear the music to Inception playing in the background while reading your post.

First: nice over-simplification. You named one gamemode, that you think is not #4 spammable. You are wrong.

Second: I can clearly head Ash bladeshtorming all round long, not moving a step from energy consumable.

 

BTW. Nullifiers were introduced, because of #4 spam on ..yes INTERCEPTIONS.

[Juebev]

 

First: nice over-simplification. You named one gamemode, that you think is not #4 spammable. You are wrong.

Second: I can clearly head Ash bladeshtorming all round long, not moving a step from energy consumable.

 

BTW. Nullifiers were introduced, because of #4 spam on ..yes INTERCEPTIONS.

 

 

Lol.

Inception is a movie , Interception is a gamemode.

And Ash's Bladestorm cannot clear a room of enemies in T4S or Defense, perhaps you should try leaving mercury once in awhile.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Juebev

[R34LM]

And Ash's Bladestorm cannot clear a room of enemies in T4S or Defense, perhaps you should try leaving mercury once in awhile.

I beg to differ. It doesn't clear the room out quickly, but it makes sure that half of the mob is sentenced to death if marked.

[SandwitchPrime]

i thought this game was supposed to encourage players to choose their playstyle?

[Juebev]

I beg to differ. It doesn't clear the room out quickly, but it makes sure that half of the mob is sentenced to death if marked.

 

This guy implied that a single person can clear out an entire room - ALONE -repeatedly and "copter" to the next -and you are defending him.

 

I have been in plently of 1hour+ defenses and Survivals with ash and other frames and I have never ever seen anyone them "clear out" the entire room filled with lv60 lancers and lv80 heavy Gunners - alone-  even if they are "marked for death" - repeatedly.

 

Screw getting a Nova,Trinity or any other kind of support frame, lets just use pure damage frames to go 5 hours into survival and defenses and get all the stacking rewards since the way to go is "Press-4-to-win" and completey ignore how useless damage ablities are that far in. /sarcasm

 

Give me a break.

[WakeTheShark]

Lol.

Inception is a movie , Interception is a gamemode.

And Ash's Bladestorm cannot clear a room of enemies in T4S or Defense, perhaps you should try leaving mercury once in awhile.

Ash is the only Warframe (well maybe Mesa too) where I spam his 4th ability, and this is because I find his invisibility a extremely weaker version of Loki's, shuriken still sucks, and teleport is only useful on the occasion. That being said though I have nothing wrong with how I play him, I have fun, and it never prevents others from having fun too.

[V0LK]

Yeah. My bad about a movie.

 

But again, you are defending bad game design by that one situation when coptering+4 isn't a way to win. "Ooh, if you stay in survival for three hours, you won't be able..." Yes, ok, but I can easily number 4 the hell out of everything up to lvl 30. Which is, basically, most of the game.

 

And the only way game can put a challenge is by spewing bullet sponge enemies, that proc-kill you and render most of the abilities useless by that point. I want a challenge in Warframe, but not that kind of challenge.

 

 

I'm sure many thing, like new enemies, game modes, frames etc are made, having ability spam in mind. Wouldn't it be great if game balance will not dance around "Homer drinking toy" factor? If lazy people won't be able to nuke a room every second of a match, have to somewhat aim, maybe plan a bit - it would already bring some diversity.

[WakeTheShark]

 

Yeah. My bad about a movie.

 

But again, you are defending bad game design by that one situation when coptering+4 isn't a way to win. "Ooh, if you stay in survival for three hours, you won't be able..." Yes, ok, but I can easily number 4 the hell out of everything up to lvl 30. Which is, basically, most of the game.

 

And the only way game can put a challenge is by spewing bullet sponge enemies, that proc-kill you and render most of the abilities useless by that point. I want a challenge in Warframe, but not that kind of challenge.

 

 

I'm sure many thing, like new enemies, game modes, frames etc are made, having ability spam in mind. Wouldn't it be great if game balance will not dance around "Homer drinking toy" factor? If lazy people won't be able to nuke a room every second of a match, have to somewhat aim, maybe plan a bit - it would already bring some diversity.

 

There *is* diversity in the game, the 4th ability isn't always the go to ability to use in any given situation, that's what the other 3 abilities are for. Loki for example, I'll keep myself invisible most of the time to either get breathing room or gain that stealth damage bonus with melee, I'll throw out a decoy to redirect fire away from teammates or from a defense objective. Players don't only use the 4th ability.

[V0LK]

You guys are dense...

 

For every Loki or Tryn, that are not all about #4, there's Saryn, Oberon, Ember etc. Which have #4 and that's all they need. And I don't have anything against powerful room clearing abilities, I love them! I'm against using it non-stop. 

 

And usually all arguments at this point come to "Just obuse yourself, stop QQing". But that's not the point. It's not a racing game!

[WakeTheShark]

 

You guys are dense...

 

For every Loki or Tryn, that are not all about #4, there's Saryn, Oberon, Ember etc. Which have #4 and that's all they need. And I don't have anything against powerful room clearing abilities, I love them! I'm against using it non-stop. 

 

And usually all arguments at this point come to "Just obuse yourself, stop QQing". But that's not the point. It's not a racing game!

 

And you're making up a issue that doesn't exist, even Rhino doesn't spam his 4th ability, he'll Iron Skin, Roar and do that slash dash copy way before resulting to stomp. I have no idea what kind of players you play with but all players I ever see use all of there abilities in synergy and equally. It sounds to me that you're having a problem with how a minority of players are playing the game.

[McVolker]

To me, the root of the spam 4 problem is the fact that enemies come in extremely large waves most of the time. Nothing is a satisfying (or as effective) than pressing just one button to wipe out most of the problem.

 

This is the entire issue. It lies in enemies coming in unorganized clusters. If enemy ai was more tactical and paced, grouping enemies together instead of throwing entire masses at us, it wouldnt' be such an issue. 4 would be a fallback when too many overrun you at once. We have the inability to properly take out entire swarms in a quick manner without 4. We could take down organized groups of enemies who aren't swarming from all direction with ease, however. Press 4 to win is due simply to the lack of coordinated AI.

[Juebev]

 

You guys are dense...

 

For every Loki or Tryn, that are not all about #4, there's Saryn, Oberon, Ember etc. Which have #4 and that's all they need. And I don't have anything against powerful room clearing abilities, I love them! I'm against using it non-stop. 

 

And usually all arguments at this point come to "Just obuse yourself, stop QQing". But that's not the point. It's not a racing game!

 

 

I had orgininally written out a direct response to your previous post however after this little comment it just confirms even more so that people like you should perhaps should re-evaluate the reason you are here and find another game to play so others can play the way they want to play without people crying for nerfs thinking they are making the game any better when they are actually making it worse.

 

If anyone is dense, its you whiners that keep suggesting these asinine ideas with ludicrous nerfs "fixes"  without being reasonable and get upset when people don't agree with you.

 

One of the reasons Warframe is special because it has ablities, and if somone put forths the effort to max out thier ablities to the fullest to the point they want to to "nuke" a room, let them! Coptering? let them! it doesn't bother me in the slightest and it shouldn't bother you.

 

The real problem is, the Enemy Ai is un-coordinated,unorangized and have always zerged into death-  what do you think someone is going to do when they have a mass of enemies around them? "plan a bit, aim and shoot?" stop trying to turn this game into something its not and worrying how others play thier game.

 

The burden falls on DE to make interesting and challenging enemies that allows people who have invested a substanstial amount of time in thier frames worthwhile, this does not mean changing the core fundamentals of the game.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I had orgininally written out a direct response to your previous post however after this little comment it just confirms even more so that people like you should perhaps should re-evaluate the reason you are here and find another game to play so others can play the way they want to play without people crying for nerfs thinking they are making the game any better when they are actually making it worse.

 

If anyone is dense, its you whiners that keep suggesting these asinine ideas with ludicrous nerfs "fixes"  without being reasonable and get upset when people don't agree with you.

 

After DE's bit about the "drinking bird gameplay", you think /he/ has the problem? I'm gonna call you even more dense than the person you're accusing.

 

P4TW is an issue. I don't want to sit back and watch someone else play the game while I have nothing to shoot. Most people don't. If you can't understand that, it is you who has the problem.

[WakeTheShark]

After DE's bit about the "drinking bird gameplay", you think /he/ has the problem? I'm gonna call you even more dense than the person you're accusing.

 

P4TW is an issue. I don't want to sit back and watch someone else play the game while I have nothing to shoot. Most people don't. If you can't understand that, it is you who has the problem.

 

Calling it a problem doesn't suddenly make it a problem, and just because DE thinks that's the case too doesn't prove your point, that's an appeal to authority fallacy. I keep on stating this over and over but I rarely run into the issue of "I have nothing to shoot" the only times this does happen is when I'm playing with randoms which is what you're going to get for playing with randoms. There is little to no teamwork with random players, and most people playing open are just wanting to rush through the mission and more players helps speed things along. The issue lies with the people you're playing with, nerfing abilities and trying to make the game what it isn't is not going to accomplish anything and "If you can't understand that, it is you who has the problem."

[Juebev]

P4TW is an issue. I don't want to sit back and watch someone else play the game while I have nothing to shoot. Most people don't. If you can't understand that, it is you who has the problem.

 

I don't think you get it though thats not really a surprise, just like many times talking to whiners on these forums I find myself repeating things I've already said countless times. "P4TW" is not a issue, for the reasons you literally quoted but fail to read.

 

Besides the fact P4TW doesn't even apply to all frames -Ablitites are suppose to be powerful, it falls on DE to make it that we aren't punished for not using these abilities - the answer to everything is not the nerfhammer, this isn't a hard concept to grasp.

 

And if you don't like the way someone plays thier game, I suggest getting some friends instead of playing with randoms.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Juebev

[HibikiGanaha]

 

So you see no problem with #4 spam? When a whole game literally consists of coptering into a room, pressing 4 and coptering out. If some one left alive just press #4 two more times.

 

That's why we have Nullifiers now. That's why we have all the nerfs. DE still trying to fix symptoms, rather than a cause.

 

I do not see a problem with this when you need to max out R10 rare mods to do that.  Hundreds of hours of farming to get to that strength point.

 

Also in response to the OP, "high level players" will just drop energy restores or have trinity energy vamp and continue to spam ultimates and not move from a spot.  The "Press 4 to Win" issue that DE is trying to stop is only on Interception.  Could you imagine the cool game you made devolve into 3 people afk with a macro pressing 4 and another spinning his mouse with a macro on 2?  That's the problem they tried to solve and it has nothing to do with overusing abilities in any other game mode.  You should be able to feel powerful after hundreds of hours of farming.  When I first started it took me over 30 minutes to clear a single T4E key.  Now after all my efforts it only takes maybe 5 minutes.

[WakeTheShark]

I do not see a problem with this when you need to max out R10 rare mods to do that.  Hundreds of hours of farming to get to that strength point.

 

Also in response to the OP, "high level players" will just drop energy restores or have trinity energy vamp and continue to spam ultimates and not move from a spot.  The "Press 4 to Win" issue that DE is trying to stop is only on Interception.  Could you imagine the cool game you made devolve into 3 people afk with a macro pressing 4 and another spinning his mouse with a macro on 2?  That's the problem they tried to solve and it has nothing to do with overusing abilities in any other game mode.  You should be able to feel powerful after hundreds of hours of farming.  When I first started it took me over 30 minutes to clear a single T4E key.  Now after all my efforts it only takes maybe 5 minutes.

 

Saying "R10 Rare Mod" doesn't show anything because R10 or Rare does not indicate it's power, the direct stat effect does, and one can't make OP abilities without the corrupted mods that take away something at the same time. The problem that caused "pressing 4 to win" on interception was Viver, and the horrendous amount of grind you had to do to gain standing from Syndicates, don't pretend that "press 4 to win" caused that.

[HibikiGanaha]

Saying "R10 Rare Mod" doesn't show anything because R10 or Rare does not indicate it's power, the direct stat effect does, and one can't make OP abilities without the corrupted mods that take away something at the same time. The problem that caused "pressing 4 to win" on interception was Viver, and the horrendous amount of grind you had to do to gain standing from Syndicates, don't pretend that "press 4 to win" caused that.

It does show something because most of the corrupted mods you need to get max strength and max range are Rank 10 Rare mods.  Those take a long time to max.  You can stack different corrupted mods to eliminate any of the negative bonuses you don't want.  The reason those mods are rank 10 rare is because they are really really good mods.

 

All of the builds for Viver required max range and max strength which comes mostly from corrupted mods.

 

I don't know exactly what you are trying to argue against, do you mind clarifying?

[WakeTheShark]

It does show something because most of the corrupted mods you need to get max strength and max range are Rank 10 Rare mods.  Those take a long time to max.  You can stack different corrupted mods to eliminate any of the negative bonuses you don't want.  The reason those mods are rank 10 rare is because they are really really good mods.

 

All of the builds for Viver required max range and max strength which comes mostly from corrupted mods.

 

I don't know exactly what you are trying to argue against, do you mind clarifying?

 

You were trying to claim that the issue with Interception missions was press4towin syndrome when in reality, people made these loadouts and set ups that locked down the map was because of the amount of grinding you had to do to get standing for syndicates, players no longer cared about the mission, they wanted what little the mission provided.

 

You can try to counter the downsides of corrupted mods but in the end you're wasting mod slots and one stat is still going to be lost, hence min/max loadouts. The REWARD to min/maxing your loadout is that your amplifying one strength of your warframe at the cost of others, that includes maxing out the strength to an ability. That is also to say that not many players min/max and not many players press4towin

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

To me, the root of the spam 4 problem is the fact that enemies come in extremely large waves most of the time. Nothing is a satisfying (or as effective) than pressing just one button to wipe out most of the problem.

 

DE cannot fix the problem with any quick solution. The foundation needs to be reworked.

[HibikiGanaha]

You were trying to claim that the issue with Interception missions was press4towin syndrome when in reality, people made these loadouts and set ups that locked down the map was because of the amount of grinding you had to do to get standing for syndicates, players no longer cared about the mission, they wanted what little the mission provided.

 

You can try to counter the downsides of corrupted mods but in the end you're wasting mod slots and one stat is still going to be lost, hence min/max loadouts. The REWARD to min/maxing your loadout is that your amplifying one strength of your warframe at the cost of others, that includes maxing out the strength to an ability. That is also to say that not many players min/max and not many players press4towin

People are still rep farming even after the rep cap was introduced and rep gains were buffed 10 times the original amount.  Both of those were good steps to curb rep grinding.  Interceptions still are press 4 to win syndrome, now on grineer maps.  That is the problem DE is trying to fix.

 

Nuker frames are not affected by corrupted mods at all.  Blind Rage + Fleeting expertise is +99% strength +5% efficiency -x% duration.  Duration does not matter on a nuker frame.  Transient Fortitude gives +55% Strength - 27.5% duration.  Again, duration has no effect on nukers other than making saryn's stronger. It's reasonably difficult to max BR and TF, but once you do you can place them on excalibur, run your macro and stand in the same spot for huge amounts of experience.

 

My suggestion for fixing this is to make Excalibur's ultimate immune to range increase sort of like how Rhino's stomp is immune to duration effects from mods.

 

Edit: Forgot about overextended, but that is offset by transient fortitude.

Edited December 18, 2014 by HibikiGanaha