Boltor Prime Isn't The Problem, It's The Heavy Enemies.

[Spoof310]

First, before you write down an answer, read my thread.

 

We all know that Soma/Prime and Boltor Prime are the strongest weapons in the game.

We all know that the corrupted heavy gunners and bombards are the most annoying enemies in the game.

 

But what if I told you that not only Boltor Prime is overpowered, but puncture damage in general is?

 

Both types of these enemies have insane Armor Scalings in late hightier void missions.

The Heavy Gunner wears Ferrite Armor. Puncture Damage is increased by 50% against Ferrite Armor. 

The Bombards wear Alloy Armor and that takes an additional 25% against Puncture Damage.

 

The other 2 "basic" types of Damage, Slash and Impact, even receive a penalty.

Against Ferrite (Heavy Gunners), Slash deals 25% less damage

Against Alloy, Slash deals even less, with a 50% penalty in damage

And since both types of enemies are grineer, they share their innate 25% resistance against Impact Damage.

 

 

So, as long as DE does not rework the behaviour of either puncture damage or these types of Armor (And nerfs Boltor Prime, the sheer raw damage is insane and don't you dare tell me it isn't), Puncture damage in general (and as of now, especially Boltor Prime) will stay the best possible choice in the Void.

 

[Deviantis]

No on soma/boltor p being the strongest weapons. They're the easiest.

No on puncture being the strongest. It's the most versatile.

Armor is just broken, and so is armor scaling.

Dread with 4x corrosive projection is the strongest vs bombard and gunners.

Your misconceptions are misplaced

[Shion963]

Are IPS builds even good enough for endgame-level enemies? Usually it's the combo elements that are the main damage dealers in most builds I've seen/used.

[sneakysnail]

No on soma/boltor p being the strongest weapons. They're the easiest.

No on puncture being the strongest. It's the most versatile.

Armor is just broken, and so is armor scaling.

Dread with 4x corrosive projection is the strongest vs bombard and gunners.

Your misconceptions are misplaced

^this. paris P or dread CP for long t4 runs, wouldn't even dream of using a boltor or soma. honestly I don't think it's 2 bad at all, what do you suppose they should do if they lower the armor scaling? they cant just keep increasing wave size and I'd rather not quit during a 2 hour survival run from boredom rather than necessity. seriously though if you remove or nerf the current armor scaling how long would people last in survival, defense, interception etc? the first 30-40 odd minutes are boring enough as it is, no one wants to be playing a single mission for over an hour before it gets challenging.

[Holeypaladin]

Armor scaling is broken.  Is always has been.  Armor is the only enemy stat that should never scale with level.

[Quizel]

Armor scaling is broken.  Is always has been.  Armor is the only enemy stat that should never scale with level.

Yeah, a while back I was thinking DE should cap armor at like 3-6 times base or something (didn't crunch the numbers yet or put critical thought into what's good-it was a long while ago when I actually looked at the numbers and formula).

 

When playing max lvl void/grineer missions, the best aura is corrosive projection. Period. Done. No thinking required as the armor just scales stupidly. Even x3 corrosive projection (90% armor reduction) and using weapons with 100% puncture dmg wouldn't be enough; eventually you will still only be doing 1dmg/bullet.

 

Best auras used for the mission should have some variety if you ask me. Ideally, I was thinking 1 cp should help a ton, a 2nd cp in the group would be the standard (not 4), and 3 cp would completely remove the armor (100% reduction-leaving room for 1 more aura type) but not necessary as the armor would cap anyway. This model allows for 1 to 2 preffered auras in the missions. (Was thinking perhaps the shield disruption mod/aura should play a similar role in purely corpus missions - ino mag frame op for shields but was just a thought >.>). 

 

 

Note to OP: Puncture dmg recieves zero bonus vs armor once the group has x4 cp. Making it far less useful under that condition. So that dmg type doesn't need a reworking imo.

 

Reworking the armor system properly would lead to puncture dmg type not being as critical for groups (typically pugs and new players) not running x4 cp trying to go the distance.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Quizel

[Yazeth]

No on soma/boltor p being the strongest weapons. They're the easiest.

No on puncture being the strongest. It's the most versatile.

Armor is just broken, and so is armor scaling.

Dread with 4x corrosive projection is the strongest vs bombard and gunners.

Your misconceptions are misplaced

All of this. I'm still annoyed how people still think that Boltor P is the absolute best weapon for endgame, when its not.

[Innocent_Flower]

Still; Boltor and soma could use a nerf. 

[Siekier]

I agree, weapons aren't the problem. Armor scaling is.

 

Damage 2.0 was supposed to change it. We all know the outcome.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

(And nerfs Boltor Prime, the sheer raw damage is insane and don't you dare tell me it isn't)

 

I'm telling you it is. In anything but high level play the sheer raw damage is wasted, and in high level play the damage becomes necessary due to health (and armor if you don't have 4x corrosive proj) scaling. Come at me, bro.

 

Seriously, what is nerfing the Boltor Prime supposed to accomplish? How is it supposed to benefit the game? What is the reason to take a gun that many players have put a lot of care into acquiring and crafting - some of whom even shelled out 50+ bucks for it during prime access - to say nothing of those who put forma into it, and nerf the gun? Why? What is the problem caused by its power? Be specific.

[(PSN)Pharen]

Boltor prime still needs a nerf. You know there's a problem when EVERY single member of your clan is after that one weapon. I personally refuse to use it for that reason. I'd rather use a weaker balanced weapon then a clearly unbalanced one.

[MechaTails]

I dont care what people use in Void missions, what bothers me is everyone using the same @(*()$ weapons and frames in the low level missions. Almost every single weapon works great in the solar system, but players still flock like sheep to the same gear there.

 

And while I kinda understand the point being made about Void Heavies, I'd rather see changes that fix not only that problem (if there is one) but also encourage players to use a much wider variety of gear everywhere.

[Quizel]

I dont care what people use in Void missions, what bothers me is everyone using the same @(*()$ weapons and frames in the low level missions. Almost every single weapon works great in the solar system, but players still flock like sheep to the same gear there.

Hmm really? 

 

I do a fair amount of pug'ing and random grouping for missions and it seems like a good mix of weapons. I mean, there's a ton of weapons to level for mastery during low level missions.

 

I think de is doing an okay job of adding additional weapons which compete with other top tier weapons. I was using a rank zero Kohm the other day in a t4 cap and actually was able to take down a few enemies b4 exhausting my ammo supply (pretty sure I was the only one with corrosive projection as well).

 

What weapons and frames do you typically see? Also, when you say low level exactly what level would that be >.> (everyone seems to define these things differently). I consider low level tier 1 essentially.

[LtZefar]

Boltor prime still needs a nerf. You know there's a problem when EVERY single member of your clan is after that one weapon. I personally refuse to use it for that reason. I'd rather use a weaker balanced weapon then a clearly unbalanced one.

 

Quanta can do far more damage than Boltor Prime with it's secondary. Also it's hard to run out of ammo for that weapon. Should that weapon be nerfed as well? Amprex is also pretty damn powerful when fully modded.

 

If you want to use a weaker version then stick to normal boltor. Nerfing Boltor Prime will do nothing.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I dont care what people use in Void missions, what bothers me is everyone using the same @(*()$ weapons and frames in the low level missions. Almost every single weapon works great in the solar system, but players still flock like sheep to the same gear there.

 

And while I kinda understand the point being made about Void Heavies, I'd rather see changes that fix not only that problem (if there is one) but also encourage players to use a much wider variety of gear everywhere.

 

That's a matter of people being lazy and not wanting to switch out their loadouts unless they're leveling mastery fodder. You're not going to change that by nerfing boltor prime. You're just going to have dudes constantly running braton/paris/burston/etc prime instead of boltor.

[geninrising]

Are IPS builds even good enough for endgame-level enemies? Usually it's the combo elements that are the main damage dealers in most builds I've seen/used.

The reason combination element builds work for said individuals is because their teams are not working 4x Corrosive projection so that bonus damage per enemy type works out great. However if you rock a full 4x CP then the enemies have 0% armor and thus the other damage builds will yield the highest damage numbers.

[geninrising]

Hmm really? 

 

I do a fair amount of pug'ing and random grouping for missions and it seems like a good mix of weapons. I mean, there's a ton of weapons to level for mastery during low level missions.

 

I think de is doing an okay job of adding additional weapons which compete with other top tier weapons. I was using a rank zero Kohm the other day in a t4 cap and actually was able to take down a few enemies b4 exhausting my ammo supply (pretty sure I was the only one with corrosive projection as well).

 

What weapons and frames do you typically see? Also, when you say low level exactly what level would that be >.> (everyone seems to define these things differently). I consider low level tier 1 essentially.

Kohm is actually THE top tier Shotty IMO currently. It's DPS is outstanding and you can mod it to be more accurate if necessary however I feel that is detrimental to the weapons overall purpose. Clearing hallways like a boss. I have a 4 forma build on it and I even kill Nullifiers faster that Boltor Primes carried next to me(this is ofc thanks to the nullifiers shields falling based on a combination of hits and damage, that 120% multishot really helps in this regard). I do not have it modded for speed AT ALL. No accelerated Blast or Shotgun Spaz. I even use Vicious spread with little to no trouble thanks to the bullets ability to bouce(aim a little lower than you think you need to and you get a nice bounce off the floor that still allows your upper pellet spread to headshot. Plus it's innate punch through is great. 

 

A bit of advice however, when you run into a heave swap to a high dps secondary and focus fire their heads to keep up ammo economy as I only run Ammo mutation and no shotgun scavenger(corrosive projection is best in the void without fail).

 

T4 Survival 75 minutes with Kohm without running out of ammo(without using ammo restores, could have gone longer with).

Edited January 1, 2015 by geninrising

[Quizel]

T4 Survival 75 minutes with Kohm without running out of ammo(without using ammo restores, could have gone longer with).

Impressive and hard time believing :D but advice noted. Right now the plan is to keep Kohm the as my ultimate short mission/boss killer (shot gun spaz mod'ed).

[geninrising]

Impressive and hard time believing :D but advice noted. Right now the plan is to keep Kohm the as my ultimate short mission/boss killer (shot gun spaz mod'ed).

It is impressive considering most people I have seen still complain about the ammo economy. The only thing I do differently from the majority of players I see is, I use the Kohm for clearing groups  not for single targets. Has not failed me so far. Additionally I see others with Kohm modded for speed which imo it does not need if you make a few seconds to spoil up with some creative footwork. Additionally modding it for speed only adds to it's ammo economy problems/ ^^

Edited January 1, 2015 by geninrising

[Holeypaladin]

The only time I ever really see people using mostly soma prime, boltor prime, amprex  etc. is in T4 void missions.  Where such firepower is needed due to those bombards and nullifiers.

[DSpite]

Boltor prime still needs a nerf. You know there's a problem when EVERY single member of your clan is after that one weapon. I personally refuse to use it for that reason. I'd rather use a weaker balanced weapon then a clearly unbalanced one.

 

That type of thinking is broken though. You use what works best. If they change enemy Armor to take more damage from Slash, the player base will move to that, and then what, call THAT weapon unbalanced?

 

The game, for most people, has nothing to do with challenge, only loot collecting in the most expedient way possible.

 

Clan full of players with Boltor Primes or clan full of Bratons. The difference is simply how high on the "endless" scale you go to, which was never even balanced for in the first place. Challenge is not "can I kill it or not with the 500 rounds I'm carrying", it's "what specific tactics do I need to implement this time to take it out".

 

We don't have challenge here in the same way you don't have challenge in Borderlands. You have some basic tactics to keep it fresh enough and make it enjoyable to burn a few thousand rounds per play session.

 

Saying that "high level enemies are challenging" is laughable. Simple coded AI with highly predictable behavior is NOT challenging. If the units were player controlled, even at much lower levels then players, you would get so many team wipes, people would rage quit on mass.

 

I lost count of PvE Global Agenda missions I watched on the 4v2 PvE maps (2 players assisted by the mission AI to try and stop the 4 player team) where the 2 players destroyed the team of 4. on what would normally be a walk in the park map. Humans are flexible, AI is not.

[Azawarau]

Non heavy armor scaling isnt too terribly bad

 

Heavies get pretty nasty though

 

It hurts all weapons really

[fatpig84]

They simply need to stop enemies from gaining armor after a certain level.

[DSpite]

They simply need to stop enemies from gaining armor after a certain level.

 

Its "endless". How do you justify still being able to fight level 300 enemies, when it's 10x max player level?

 

In a fantasy MMO it's the equivalent of a team facing off against 100+ powerful dragons at once. It's insane to pretend a semblance of fairness or balance is possible. Then what? 100 Gods? Where does the madness end?

[(PSN)Pharen]

That type of thinking is broken though. You use what works best. If they change enemy Armor to take more damage from Slash, the player base will move to that, and then what, call THAT weapon unbalanced?

-snip-

THAT kind of thinking is what's broken. I never mentioned any type of change, just the necessity for it to happen. You're making a post to accuse me of something that you thought up in your head, not something I have spoken. Boltor Prime is overpowered, that much is undeniable. And it does need some sort of change. Defending it on the grounds that another weapon will replace it is not a valid argument. Balance is when one weapon will outperform in its designed situation, not in all situations, which is exactly what the Boltor Prime does. Your argument that humans are flexible, AI are not, is also wrong, some games like Killzone shadow fall, show what good AI are capable of: flanking, team tactics, cover fire, etc. Warframe has gone for a horde style AI where quantity of AI trumps quality. It has been implemented this way because it gives a sense of power to mow down hundreds of fleeing enemies, rather than a sense of fear fighting a smaller, smarter, stronger force.

Edited January 2, 2015 by (PS4)Pharen