Press 4 To Win

[Nighttide77]

As for lower level planets, a dynamic scaling system should be implemented to scale our ability attributes and damage down to lower levels so we can play alongside new players in Mercury/Venus/Earth without utterly dominating their game.

 

Or...the veterans could mod properly so as to be on a similar level as newbies?  I like going to beginning levels and breezing through them.

 

It's not just these games, what about shooters such as Left4Dead, Counter Strike, Killing Floor, Unreal Tournament, GunZ, TF2, Insurgency, and other shooters past and current? No one player was able to take on the entire game by themselves, they had limitations of some sort. Warframe as it stands now isn't holding player interest because there's nothing to be glad about except breezing through the game to fight the RNG to get the newest prime parts. A shooter game can have teamwork too and doesn't need to be diminished to pressing only one button to beat the game and wait for the next gimmick content release.

 

If you would...would you please summarize the key points you think would keep people playing Warframe?  I don't think teamwork aspects really keeps players, because TF2 and L4D are heavily teamwork biased, but I stopped playing L4D, TF2, UT, and even Tribes cuz my teammates didn't know how to work as a team and playing such games solo was boring.  I'd imagine that having friends or a proper competitive clan helps, but people move on from game to game, too.

[MechaKnight]

Buff void keys, I can agree to that. It would actually make them late-game content more so than just T3 or T4. Having the void be the goal of reaching the end of the Origin System sounds like how it should be. And yeah, some of our abilities are strong, but to ensure that an entirety of a kit is a palpable option for builds, ensuring that the kit as a whole is a solid foundation is key.

 

And the integrity of this game isn't endangered. People play as they wish, that's the enjoyment of it. If it isn't fun for them they aren't going to play. And for some, utilizing and/or maximizing one power in their kit is how they want to do it. So let them do it. We don't have to, but we shouldn't punish them for it. Hurting peoples play styles simply because we believe it to be wrong is what's going to hurt the integrity and the player base more so than how it is now.

 

What kind of "obstacles" were you thinking about? If it's anything to do with nerfing powers, fair warning, I'm gonna be adamant against it unless you've got a miracle to how this is actually a good idea.

 

And the games you've listed, they're fun games, good for them and those who enjoy it. But you must remember that WarFrame is a game where players can either go through the game by themselves, with friends, or with PUGs if they wish it, that's the beauty of it. You can go through this game solo or with a squad, that's how the Devs made it, and that's a good way to make it because it doesn't force players to go with groups when all they want is to go by themselves. Also, most of those don't really compare to WarFrame because it isn't just a shooter or an RPG or an MMO or a Fantasy game, it's got aspects of that all mixed into one. You can't force an aspect of one genre into this because then you're gonna start alienating parts of the player base, (like ArchWing) thus being more contradicting to retention than helpful.

 

The beauty of the system is that we CAN become so powerful, THAT'S the point of us going through all this grinding and hell for. We are able to make ourselves extremely powerful and play to our play styles while still being powerful. If players can push through content quickly, then I'd say they've earned the right to do it if you look at how long and hard they've fought to get to that point. Upping the difficulty is an option, sure, but I'd rather we had more interesting mechanics in late-game enemies that make them more tactical to fight. Still, you need to remember that the pace of this game is extremely fast, as such having enemies that you need to fight tediously might not be the best option.

Okay, so don't restrict power. That seems fine if the game expands to accommodate it to give us a challenge. By "obstacle", I just meant

gameplay scenarios to challenge us, like the way the Europa tileset harms players when they are outside and out of the range of a space heater, or enemies like nullifiers that challenge us by enticing us to get in close or get behind cover and shoot the shield down. I still think we can be way too powerful in some places in the game. There should be a scaling system so we can play alongside actual new players on Mercury without utterly carrying them and giving them nothing to shoot. We should be rewarded for our strength where it's warranted to have it, but in some places we should be auto-scaled by the game so we can play on a comparable amount of power to players who are actually progressing through those levels normally for their first time. It would help this game build community and make the game more welcoming for new players and our friends we want to bring into this system.

 

As for limited-edition supplies...

If event mods don't come back into circulation, we need to implement some cheap counterparts that are almost as good, but not quite as good.  50/50 damage/status mods comparable to 60/60, 100% physical damage mods compared to the 120% event mod counterparts. Something that's always in circulation and is a valid choice, but perhaps doesn't undermine the event version. The event versions hsould also periodically revisit the game in some form.

 

 

 

Not to pick at you or anything, but I don't agree with these statements, which I think might be the foundation for your arguments and maybe the arguments of others.

 

For me, gameplay feels immensely rewarding when I start a match with an Ogris and the right placed shot lights up the screen with affinity numbers.  Gameplay is also incredibly rewarding when I Rhino Stomp and I have to wait a second for the computer to calculate the fact that a couple dozen enemies just got damaged and CC'd at the same time.  I don't need a sense of accomplishment, because the fun is in the arsenal, itself.  If I need to feel like I overcame a challenge that required some mental/physical exertion, I'd play a puzzle game or do something in real life, like getting stronger so I can wield a sword that looks like Warframe's Gram.

 

If Warframe was meant to be a game of mind-breaking challenges and immense teamwork, it wouldn't be what it is, now.  It'd be more like a futuristic Shadow of the Colossus with up to 20-person co-op and new epic bosses released once a month.

 

At the same time, however, the beauty of Warframe is that each person has the flexibility to choose whether they want to be challenged.  The game allows people to decide whether they want their ultimate to nuke a place or not.  If someone wants to be proud of taking a mod-empty Loki into a survival mission for one hour, they can easily do that.  If they so choose, they could even record and YouTube it, though that probably doesn't do much for their personality or person.  Forced challenge, however, will probably turn a lot of the player-base off, including myself.

 

Well, I think Warframe needs some meaningful places that give an advantage for playing with more difficulty. Maybe refine nightmare modes to have persistent bonuses to XP/credits/resources along with those old hidden blueprint drops that used to be the way to collect Banshee. Completely optional, yet there to satisfy the population that wants it.

 

[AlphaHorseman]

It's possible we may even need a game map expansion for solar systems owned by corpus/grineer/infested way above our current solar system level. As for lower level planets, a dynamic scaling system should be implemented to scale our ability attributes and damage down to lower levels so we can play alongside new players in Mercury/Venus/Earth without utterly dominating their game.

The Corpus/Grineer/Infested are still warring in the Origin System, I don't think any side actually could control an entire system by themselves because we, the Tenno, keep them in check.

 

For low level planets, that's what happens when you're in PUGs sometimes. Higher players get bunched with new kids, which can actually help the newer players because they can get carried and ask advice. Being penalized for being powerful sounds like a bad idea, again. New Players can see what they can achieve and what weapons and WarFrames higher players have and thus have a goal to work towards. If you nerf experienced players down to their level it defeats the entire point of the mods system and all that time spent modding and upgrading.

[MechaKnight]

Or...the veterans could mod properly so as to be on a similar level as newbies?  I like going to beginning levels and breezing through them.

 

 

If you would...would you please summarize the key points you think would keep people playing Warframe?  I don't think teamwork aspects really keeps players, because TF2 and L4D are heavily teamwork biased, but I stopped playing L4D, TF2, UT, and even Tribes cuz my teammates didn't know how to work as a team and playing such games solo was boring.  I'd imagine that having friends or a proper competitive clan helps, but people move on from game to game, too.

 

Well, new players may want senior player peers too. Maybe a mission roulette that gives bonuses to XP/credits/materials while you queue for a random mission on a lower level. At least, it's definitely an empty game where new players are, some of them won't make it to where we are. It could help.

 

You mean ways to keep people around playing the game? Challenge with rewards, a reason to be as powerful as we are. Gameplay that feels more dynamic.

 

By challenges with rewards, maybe we can buff nightmare incentives. That's a good way to satisfy players in the solar system. It is recommended the bonuses also be different in different planets/mission types, other than only 1 nightmare mod as is currently.

 

Also, buffing void keys and making a solar system expansion where there are enemies exclusive to said new region, which present new challenges. Along with environmental hazards and higher enemy start levels.

 

Gameplay that adjusts and throws random scenarios into the match. We keep killing the same enemies repeatedly. The devs attempted something with the prosecutors, but they just weren't innovative enough. What we need is a min-boss enemy that appears randomly, announced by the Lotus. Something more common than the Stalker and his counterparts, unique to every faction/planet.

 

Well, I suppose the solo player argument will always be there. I always recommend finding a good clan/alliance, but there will be those who aren't able for various reasons. That's always been a tricky thing in games, once the stakes rise high enough large player organizations are borderline necessity.

[AlphaHorseman]

Okay, so don't restrict power. That seems fine if the game expands to accommodate it to give us a challenge. By "obstacle", I just meant

gameplay scenarios to challenge us, like the way the Europa tileset harms players when they are outside and out of the range of a space heater, or enemies like nullifiers that challenge us by enticing us to get in close or get behind cover and shoot the shield down. I still think we can be way too powerful in some places in the game. There should be a scaling system so we can play alongside actual new players on Mercury without utterly carrying them and giving them nothing to shoot. We should be rewarded for our strength where it's warranted to have it, but in some places we should be auto-scaled by the game so we can play on a comparable amount of power to players who are actually progressing through those levels normally for their first time. It would help this game build community and make the game more welcoming for new players and our friends we want to bring into this system.

 

As for limited-edition supplies...

If event mods don't come back into circulation, we need to implement some cheap counterparts that are almost as good, but not quite as good.  50/50 damage/status mods comparable to 60/60, 100% physical damage mods compared to the 120% event mod counterparts. Something that's always in circulation and is a valid choice, but perhaps doesn't undermine the event version. The event versions hsould also periodically revisit the game in some form.

Auto scaling doesn't sound like it helps, see my post above as to why. Maybe a system where higher conclave players are bunched together for matches then? As in, if a player has a conclave above 1500, they play PUGs with other players of similar ranks. Have a range for what conclave ratings a player wants to play with. Don't force it of course, have it where its an option they can select. Same with lower level players, they can pick to be put into matches only with players a certain conclave level below or above. 

 

This too, may be a bad option, as players could be limited to different groups to play with, and again feels like a segregation of the community. Still, weakening players simply because they're good isn't the way to go.

 

For the limited mods, don't worry, the event mods always make a return. They take a while to get back, but the event mods always return sooner or later. Redundancy mods sound like dilution to the already bloated drop tables, which wouldn't help anyone. Lethal Torrent was once an event "exclusive" mod a year or two back, but made its way into circulation after a few months I believe.

[MechaKnight]

The Corpus/Grineer/Infested are still warring in the Origin System, I don't think any side actually could control an entire system by themselves because we, the Tenno, keep them in check.

 

For low level planets, that's what happens when you're in PUGs sometimes. Higher players get bunched with new kids, which can actually help the newer players because they can get carried and ask advice. Being penalized for being powerful sounds like a bad idea, again. New Players can see what they can achieve and what weapons and WarFrames higher players have and thus have a goal to work towards. If you nerf experienced players down to their level it defeats the entire point of the mods system and all that time spent modding and upgrading.

 

Hmm.... Space Magic? At least I want the devs to devise a reason for giving the grineer/corpus/infested a base of operations with unique challenges and rewards within. Maybe we only guard one solar system. In farther reaches of the galaxy, the enemy can own an entire region. Maybe there can be invasions pushing into said areas, where the tileset and enemies are unique as a faction pushes into enemy territory.

 

Well, that's a subjective point for new players. Some new players want to see high level players and get advice from them. There's also the other side where new players feel repelled, expecting to compete against a heap of prepared founders against whatever the game contains. I still think an optional mission roulette is a good idea. We can optionally accept a mission that nerfs us to their level for an incentive in various rewards we get specifically for helping them finish that mission.

[MechaKnight]

Auto scaling doesn't sound like it helps, see my post above as to why. Maybe a system where higher conclave players are bunched together for matches then? As in, if a player has a conclave above 1500, they play PUGs with other players of similar ranks. Have a range for what conclave ratings a player wants to play with. Don't force it of course, have it where its an option they can select. Same with lower level players, they can pick to be put into matches only with players a certain conclave level below or above. 

 

This too, may be a bad option, as players could be limited to different groups to play with, and again feels like a segregation of the community. Still, weakening players simply because they're good isn't the way to go.

 

For the limited mods, don't worry, the event mods always make a return. They take a while to get back, but the event mods always return sooner or later. Redundancy mods sound like dilution to the already bloated drop tables, which wouldn't help anyone. Lethal Torrent was once an event "exclusive" mod a year or two back, but made its way into circulation after a few months I believe.

 

Okay, an optional selection sounds fine. Optional self-nerf for optional reward. However yes, the popularity of the reward system may cause some oddities, like having three power-scaled players helping only one new player. But it seems like a good idea, it's purely optional for only 1 mission. With rewards.

 

However, I've seen segregation too. Regions only populated by low-level players. High-level players only go with others of their level, new players can't squad with them. Hence why I think the roulette system should scale them down then randomly throw them into a squad with whoever. Although senior players get annoyed sometimes when the new players are actually new, and the reward may not feel like enough to deal with helping new players while you're scaled down with them. It's not a perfect option regardless of how it's implemented, but I think it's worth trying.

 

Well, event mods tend to take a long time. I've got them all, but have friends who don't. I think it took a year for the Cicero mods to come back in a fashion where they are always obtainable. The Tethra mods reappeared, but only for the length of an event built to give another event reward. Maybe the devs will implement Tethra permanently, but if they don't then a comparable quality mod may be a good idea. We don't need to make new mods in most cases-- we can buff those pitiful rifle phyiscal damage mods from 30% to 90%-100% so they're at least decently good of an option. Also, boost the solo status mod to give 100% status instead of 15%. A combination of 3 element event mods will give 180% elemental damage and 180% status, but using 2 normal elemental mods and the new Rifle Aptitude at 100% status will yield 180% elemental damage but only 100% status. It's not as good of an option, but sometimes useful in certain scenarios, and will allow new players to mock-up some of the classic builds with cheaper resources.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[AlphaHorseman]

Okay, an optional selection sounds fine. Optional self-nerf for optional reward. However yes, the popularity of the reward system may cause some oddities, like having three power-scaled players helping only one new player. But it seems like a good idea, it's purely optional for only 1 mission. With rewards.

 

However, I've seen segregation too. Regions only populated by low-level players. High-level players only go with others of their level, new players can't squad with them. Hence why I think the roulette system should scale them down then randomly throw them into a squad with whoever. Although senior players get annoyed sometimes when the new players are actually new, and the reward may not feel like enough to deal with helping new players while you're scaled down with them. It's not a perfect option regardless of how it's implemented, but I think it's worth trying.

 

Well, event mods tend to take a long time. I've got them all, but have friends who don't. I think it took a year for the Cicero mods to come back in a fashion where they are always obtainable. The Tethra mods reappeared, but only for the length of an event built to give another event reward. Maybe the devs will implement Tethra permanently, but if they don't then a comparable quality mod may be a good idea. We don't need to make new mods in most cases-- we can buff those pitiful rifle phyiscal damage mods from 30% to 90%-100% so they're at least decently good of an option. Also, boost the solo status mod to give 100% status instead of 15%. A combination of 3 element event mods will give 180% elemental damage and 180% status, but using 2 normal elemental mods and the new Rifle Aptitude at 100% status will yield 180% elemental damage but only 100% status. It's not as good of an option, but sometimes useful in certain scenarios, and will allow new players to mock-up some of the classic builds with cheaper resources.

To clarify, I don't really mean forcing the experienced players to nerf themselves to be able to play on lower level missions simply because the PUG they're going into is comprised of lower levels. That option is already available to them, they can unmod their weaponry/WarFrame to do so. Making a system which they purposely have to nerf themselves to gain a reward or feel a challenge is pretty much the Tactical Events we have. True incentives could be given, but such incentives would be problematic, as DE would have to build an entirely new system that caters to a specific crowd whom seek to be nerfed and be rewarded for it. Also, some who already nerf themselves may not see the rewards as appealing as it may not cater to their wants. 

 

In short, I think how we have it now, where players can choose themselves to nerf themselves is a good option. For new players, it's on a case by case basis on whether or not they want the experienced players there or not, but such is the nature of PUG matches, randomness. The options are still there for invite only, friends, and solo play if they wish it. Those in and of themselves look to be sufficient options. Hurting players simply because they chose to play PUG sounds more like an incentive to leave PUG matches than stay in them.

 

On the mods, DE will re-release them, unfortunately it takes an arduous amount of time due to all the content they have to work through and add already. I think the reason why they haven't buffed those mods is because they're looking to make players see the dual stats as worth the hell of getting them. You'd have to go to Void Vor for the Cicero, on a T4 mission no less. Tethra I don't know where those drop, but I'm guessing its on a higher level boss/mini boss in the solar map? I'm thinking the single stat mods are kept that way because DE wants them to push to higher level content to obtain these mods. Another incentive from them to push through the Star Map and into the Void.

[MechaKnight]

To clarify, I don't really mean forcing the experienced players to nerf themselves to be able to play on lower level missions simply because the PUG they're going into is comprised of lower levels. That option is already available to them, they can unmod their weaponry/WarFrame to do so. Making a system which they purposely have to nerf themselves to gain a reward or feel a challenge is pretty much the Tactical Events we have. True incentives could be given, but such incentives would be problematic, as DE would have to build an entirely new system that caters to a specific crowd whom seek to be nerfed and be rewarded for it. Also, some who already nerf themselves may not see the rewards as appealing as it may not cater to their wants. 

 

In short, I think how we have it now, where players can choose themselves to nerf themselves is a good option. For new players, it's on a case by case basis on whether or not they want the experienced players there or not, but such is the nature of PUG matches, randomness. The options are still there for invite only, friends, and solo play if they wish it. Those in and of themselves look to be sufficient options. Hurting players simply because they chose to play PUG sounds more like an incentive to leave PUG matches than stay in them.

 

On the mods, DE will re-release them, unfortunately it takes an arduous amount of time due to all the content they have to work through and add already. I think the reason why they haven't buffed those mods is because they're looking to make players see the dual stats as worth the hell of getting them. You'd have to go to Void Vor for the Cicero, on a T4 mission no less. Tethra I don't know where those drop, but I'm guessing its on a higher level boss/mini boss in the solar map? I'm thinking the single stat mods are kept that way because DE wants them to push to higher level content to obtain these mods. Another incentive from them to push through the Star Map and into the Void.

 

Oh, pick-up groups can still be pick-up groups. I just wanted there to be an additional queue system where every player gets a bonus of a few mods, and materials/credits depending on their mastery rank. Pick-up groups at random will still be available, but the new queue roulette system will offer additional rewards at the expense of scaling down all participants to a max limit.

 

For the mods, that's the problem at hand. There is no way of getting any other dual stat mods in the game after their respective events except for Lethal Torrent long ago, and the Cicero Crisis mods. The Tethra mods only appeared again briefly in the Mutalist event, but are now gone. So no, those don't drop anywhere currently. Except trade chat where we shake the wallets of new players to exchange their platinum for our extra copies on our baby duplicate accounts. These players can't actually earn these mods themselves and rely on an event-to-win system that mutates into a pay-to-win system if they missed the event.

 

I do not know when or how DE will implement the return of these mods, but they either should do it eventually to be available permanently somewhere by some means, or implement some cheap copy/alternative somewhere. There is no valid excuse at all as to why Rifle Aptitude only gives +15% status off your base status on the weapon at rank 5. I also think cold damage on secondary and melee weapons seems unusually weak at 60% as opposed to 90%. There's also the electric damage mod on melee weapons that only gives 60% damage yet it completely defeated by its nightmare counterpart granting both 60% electric damage and 40% chanelling efficiency for fewer points in a more common polarity type.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[Nighttide77]

Hopefully with the devs' plans they'll implement some of those ideas for bosses.  With those reworks of the J3 Golem, Derf Anyo, Kela, and Tyl Regor, maybe we'll see more bosses with unique arenas and challenges that are seen in other games.  That would be pretty nice.

 

We already get syndicate squads that more commonly pop up, now, too.  Though...even if warframe powers don't generally work on them, their mechanics are still already understood in how to still take them down.  Heh, it's as if the devs take months to design an enemy that the player base only takes minutes to figure out how to defeat.  Not a very efficient system if the devs want to keep the player base with challenging enemies.

 

I think the devs did talk about a mentor system they plan on implementing so newbies have someone reliable to look for help.

 

As for keeping players around...seems like one perspective is that players need to feel their rewards match the challenge faced, hence this post on nerfing the 4th power.  As well, that no huge challenge should be resolved by the ultimate of a warframe.  Now that I can see that, I understand why some individuals may want some nerfing.  However, it's still something I don't agree with, because the reward I get from the game isn't as much in virtual objects of value, but in going at opponents with tremendous power (and it's okay when some opponents happen to be a little more powerful).  I can't be happy with just rewards unless I'm made happy by the tools used to achieve the reward.

[MechaKnight]

Hopefully with the devs' plans they'll implement some of those ideas for bosses.  With those reworks of the J3 Golem, Derf Anyo, Kela, and Tyl Regor, maybe we'll see more bosses with unique arenas and challenges that are seen in other games.  That would be pretty nice.

 

We already get syndicate squads that more commonly pop up, now, too.  Though...even if warframe powers don't generally work on them, their mechanics are still already understood in how to still take them down.  Heh, it's as if the devs take months to design an enemy that the player base only takes minutes to figure out how to defeat.  Not a very efficient system if the devs want to keep the player base with challenging enemies.

 

I think the devs did talk about a mentor system they plan on implementing so newbies have someone reliable to look for help.

 

As for keeping players around...seems like one perspective is that players need to feel their rewards match the challenge faced, hence this post on nerfing the 4th power.  As well, that no huge challenge should be resolved by the ultimate of a warframe.  Now that I can see that, I understand why some individuals may want some nerfing.  However, it's still something I don't agree with, because the reward I get from the game isn't as much in virtual objects of value, but in going at opponents with tremendous power (and it's okay when some opponents happen to be a little more powerful).  I can't be happy with just rewards unless I'm made happy by the tools used to achieve the reward.

 

New bosses and new arenas sounds great, agreed.

 

Yeah, that's one thing that confuses me about development, hence a thread months ago about giving dumb enemies powerful tools against us. Hence the mutalist ospreys and moas, as well as the corpus nullifier. These are good additions. The syndicate deaths squads are cool, but still trivial. Abilities still work on them, but even if they didn't we'd beat them up with guns and melee. Maybe the upcoming new enemies would do better in this respect.

 

Yes, mentor system could be what I was looking for in the queue roulette, although I still think it could be implemented to compliment it.

 

That's good perspective, some of us want to nerf abilities because we cheese through missions for rewards too easily. So I think it's more agreeable to both of us that a nerf is not as good of an idea as buffing the solar system to have higher numbers, smarter/tougher enemies, and expand the solar system to give us original scenarios and opponents to face us. Then there will always be the same solar system we love obliterating with our powerful might.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[AlphaHorseman]

New bosses and new arenas sounds great, agreed.

 

Yeah, that's one thing that confuses me about development, hence a thread months ago about giving dumb enemies powerful tools against us. Hence the mutalist ospreys and moas, as well as the corpus nullifier. These are good additions. The syndicate deaths squads are cool, but still trivial. Abilities still work on them, but even if they didn't we'd beat them up with guns and melee. Maybe the upcoming new enemies would do better in this respect.

 

Yes, mentor system could be what I was looking for in the queue roulette, although I still think it could be implemented to compliment it.

 

That's good perspective, some of us want to nerf abilities because we cheese through missions for rewards too easily. So I think it's more agreeable to both of us that a nerf is not as good of an idea as buffing the solar system to have higher numbers, smarter/tougher enemies, and expand the solar system to give us original scenarios and opponents to face us. Then there will always be the same solar system we love obliterating with our powerful might.

Better enemies with interesting mechanics, that I can get behind.

[fatpig84]

Honestly I find the idea of putting a 30 second cool down on skills like Blessing / Radial Disarm / Vortex  etc to be very very abhorrent.

 

 

They don't kill the enemy and you want to make them weaker ? :/

Edited January 4, 2015 by fatpig84

[MechaKnight]

I find the idea of putting a 30 second cool down on skills like Blessing / Radial Disarm / Vortex  etc to be very very abhorrent. 

Shame on people who suggest these ideas.

Woah, pump the breaks!

 

Well, 30 seconds is excessive but there are other solutions. Limiting systems can be implemented without cooldowns. However, discussion just above seems to mostly conclude that instead of a nerf, a bunch of game expansions and patches can help.

[Jasonamous]

Honestly I find the idea of putting a 30 second cool down on skills like Blessing / Radial Disarm / Vortex  etc to be very very abhorrent.

 

 

They don't kill the enemy and you want to make them weaker ? :/

 

If cooldowns were implemented, then you'd absolutely have to balance ultimates in other areas such as they're absolutely able to own level 30+ mobs at level 3 without Intensify/Continuity etc.

 

There's even more alternatives to just cooldowns too for when you actually do need to spam ultimates temporarily, such a having charges of ultimates that regenerate on cooldown. Those could even be implimented as part of the levelling system (1 charge at level 0/1, 3 charges at level 3), and as brand new mods for extra charges or cooldown reduction.

 

As long as those spammy crowd clearing ultimates are even MORE powerful in return, I'm okay with either of these ideas.

[_FrostPrime_]

Read the thread title.

 

Immediately looked at Ash.

[Husla]

I looked at my dpad.. there is no 4, silly gooses

[geninrising]

 

Tethra I don't know where those drop, but I'm guessing its on a higher level boss/mini boss in the solar map? 

 

On that subject, the Tethra mods do not drop in game. They were re-added temporarily as rewards for the Mutalist incursion survival mission(the final one of the event, at 20 minute intervals they were rewarded potentially)  and then subsequently they were removed when the event ended.

Edited January 4, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

I think one potential system that would benefit us all greatly would be a Mentor system. A mentor system was implemented into ArcheAge and they found that it greatly encouraged Veteran players to continue to do content that was otherwise useless to them.  

 

However in order for that to become a thing here in WF I believe a total overhaul of the Mastery system would be needed to ensure that players received some reward for being a higher level that would entice others to achieve higher and higher MR to be able to Mentor more and more players. 

[MechaKnight]

Well, 30 seconds is excessive but there are other solutions. Limiting systems can be implemented without cooldowns. However, discussion just above seems to mostly conclude that instead of a nerf, a bunch of game expansions and patches can help.

I took a nap, got back. Immediately saw what was wrong with this conclusion. It was my thought we could appease everyone by expanding and patching the game, but this is following DE's current pattern. It's a very slow schedule of development, and many players perceive a problem now.

 

So, after two sides of discussion previously, why buff, why nerf? There are two sides to this subject on development.

 

Those who want to buff the lackluster abilities want to have their cake, and then some more cake. Do not lose the strength of good abilities, but make other abilities better. Sure, it would make the game better from the perspective of variety, but many people perceive the game itself is stuck in a lackluster mill where the game ceases to challenge them at all. To buff the "bad" abilities to become "good", we will see tons of rebalancing which means tons of change people will argue against, and the rebalancing will be stopped dead. Players will argue X warframe needs buffs to be comparable to Y warframe's rework. This isn't even mentioning the gameplay challenge which will become even easier.

 

However, earlier we discussed that some people don't want challenge. Some people enjoy the power of their abilities and tools and the ease at which these enemies fly about the room. Some players don't want teamwork based games where strategy, clans/alliances, and coordination are involved. I understand they feel it is wrong for me to tell them to limit themselves by allowing any form of nerf/rebalance to happen.

 

But what of the other players? What of the people who are sick of spamming only one ability and wish they had more valid reasons to employ variety and coordination? What of those players who find it easy and fun to organize into big clans/alliances and want to see the game give them an ambitious mission with a reason for doing it? What of players who find thrill in the chance to lose, and lament that it's only there beyond an hour into endless content?

 

Well, there's two choices. A game expansion would appease everyone but would take extremely long to do, and the devs have to be very paranoid of not implementing any player options in an overpowered manner or else they'll develop an attachment over it. Players keep asking for enemies to be nerfed and some people go along with it because they feel that nothing in the game should challenge their power even though the devs want to entertain the challenge seekers. Meanwhile, many players seem to just want more power.

 

What's the other choice? Rebalance those overpowered radial abilities downwards. The players who like being powerful absolutely hate this, they don't want to organize into clans/alliances, or play on a team where strategy is involved, and don't like the idea that enemies tend to be as powerful as we are. The argument of "squad versus hoard" gameplay is usually the case, but the option of "squad" opponents for those who want them is seen an hour into endless content, although it's not so much an elite squad of tough enemies with good AI as much as it is a squad of insanely powerful dummies that challenge our ability, but sometimes not our wit with the coordination we can exhibit on teams.

 

An expansion would please everyone, but why ask for a radial nerf? For the people asking for it, they want the game to feel more challenging, they want to have a more justified sense of accomplishment, and they want to help the developers since an expansion will literally take years (5+), but a rebalance of our abilities can preserve the game for longer as they devise new powerful rewards and expansions at a slower pace to give us more of that power we like earning. The "nerf" card is really just trying to help the devs keep everything under control with the flow of development, as well as quell player banter about which warframe is better, and which abilities are useless. These people really would not want to make any aspect of the game bad, they just think the solution is removing the one most game-breaking tactic to add challenging depth to gameplay and lending equality to choice within the playerbase as to what warframes are good, and bringing validity to the option of doing something else besides spamming radial damage/stuns/disarms/heals.

 

Many of us have seen this community however. A particularly loud voice doesn't want to lose any of their power. A smaller voice wants to experience the game with more challenge and reason, and want more choices in the game to have validity compared to other choices. That said... we don't belong here really. We want all abilities and weapons to be equal but think the game is trivially easy. We perceive the only challenge in the game to be random number gambles until we get our prize, but it's not a challenge, it's just time and luck. We want to help the developers increase the longevity of their content and give them reassurance that their effort in equalizing our options are appreciated, and their in-game obstacles and enemies are appreciated, but we know there's no longevity of content and no appreciation of game design when we press a magic button to be done with it all and don't even look at the tileset long enough other than a passing glance. As of currently, this is the true efficiency, the best objective way to play.

 

But what of other elements of the game besides normal player-versus-game for the players already here? Many of us want new players to like this game as much as we do, and stay playing with us. We want them to feel as though they have a chance to work alongside us one day, and gradually gain power as we do with enough time and effort applied. We want them to become solid allies/opponents in PvP, instead of scrubs/fodder. Some of us want a reason to make clans instead of clan tech.

 

However, this is not the case. Considering 7 event weapon mod sets (28), 4 void trader mods, and a few other niche mods that have been limited availability mods from events of some kind, only the Cicero set and Lethal Torrent are back in circulation. Many of these mods are becomig core build mods for a heap of weapons, and what's worse is mods like Rifle Aptitude (15% status) and Piercing Hit (30% puncture off base) are ill substitutes for the limited edition options. This game has barely any tutorial at all, so these new players quickly reach towards the wiki to guide them, only to be bothered by all the mods and weapons they can no longer have. They'll never be as powerful as us even if they tried, and our game is filling with all these people who needs to be carried, meanwhile they'll quickly leave the game disappointed the day after we help them. PvP has become nerfed many times over because some people are not able to compete as well as others, but the simple truth is they lack the limited edition mods and weapons that have become crucial for PvP. Nerfing conclaves as they have been recently is a rather massive band-aid for the simple issue that competitors are not solidly even because they lack the ability to gain our tools.

 

With that, many new players are dying off before they reach the gameplay most of us either enjoy or struggle to enjoy. Those of us who enjoy it like the power they have. Those who do not don't like how trivial it is to press one button to solve all our problems. Both parties do want more challenging and varied enemies since everyone agrees the game is stale.

 

The devs have been trying their best, but Warframe can only be described as "Warframe", which in generally is unfairly balanced, trivially easy for the prepared, and generally repetitive per update as we rush content with minor changes and start the cycle over again. We know the devs first implemented cooldowns but players just cheated the system and waited in previous rooms. We know the devs wanted to implement line-of-sight, but because they only applied it to three warframes at the time, the majority of the community rebelled since players who suffered the "nerf" felt their favorite warframes were not equal to others, and players who did not have the line-of-sight applied to their favorite warframe feared that it would and did not want to lose their advantage. More ideal it would have been to have stopped the cycle of new content for a while and implement it all simultaneously, so players would not complain about inequality and the system can actually be tweaked to a form players appreciate.

 

So here we are back at square one, patches release content and the gameplay we employ to use them... fun for those who don't like coordination or burden, but for those who want the option it's an hour into infinite, or nightmare modes that really don't reward us enough in the slightest for going to the furthest node in the system we can handle. Community gameplay is only rewarded in the Dark Sectors and both the reason of Dark Sectors as well as the lack of balance in PvP (nerfing the foundation doesn't balance disproportionate players at all) makes advanced community unappealing. Still, this community should not be tailored to become necessity to all players. Rather, players should have a base to enter competitive circles solo, and then consider community when they want more. Some people do want to be alone.

 

So, what of all the above I have mentioned? It's quite grim. As I've said, I've seen many players leave this game, both new players and founders as the months have gone. December seemed to be a particularly disappointing month. What's worse is as of now, they're almost justified--the game isn't tailored to suit their needs, and it definitely seems like it will take the majority of a decade within Warframe to possibly suit these players, but between the seasonal power creep events that kill off every player who missed them, combined with the stuck mentality of player feedback and development where devs have to become paranoid to not make gameplay trivial or else the game is ruined permanently by squatters who refuse to let go of their rush of power, there is no place for these people. These people who want balance, community, depth, and logic in gameplay are become increasingly displeased with the game. They want validity between all options, they want a satisfaction and reason to organize groups of players new and old, they want a game they can become encased in to fine-tune their abilities against a valid adversary and motive, and they want the game to be sensible. However, these changes apparently will make "Warframe" become "not Warframe" over time to many players, which is tragic. I suppose for those who don't agree with current direction, leaving is a valid option. The forums are empty, PvP is becoming empty, giant alliances are becoming empty, new player zones becoming empty as they eventually learn of what forever holds them back. There is no place here for the wise, or the ambitious, or the new. We love this game, but struggle to justify its direction sometimes.

 

And that is why we see "press 4 to win" threads. These players want a reason to try new strategies, teamwork, and variety, and they don't think purposely handicapping themselves just to video record it is such a fun option. Yes that bothers people who think it is wrong for their ability to be removed, there are two sides to every story. Players don't have a choice in development, players only give feedback and the developers make the choice. The only choice players have is to stay and participate, or leave. Considering the problems of tutorial and limited-edition content, those who are new and those who leave don't tend to come back. Discussing "press 4 to win" is only one facet of trying to please the difficulty-seekers and those who want logic and validity behind gameplay variety, but one can say solving the issue of community sustainability is arguably much more important.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[AlphaHorseman]

-Sermon From The Gods-

Dude, that was extremely astute. I applaud you for your observations!

 

On the topic of powers, I do hope that they strengthen other powers between WarFrames to help players see the variety of usefulness each power in their kit has, and the strength such powers can have when these kits have great synergy. I think some problems arrive when players see only one power as good, and the rest as lackluster, so they choose to go for that one power. It is my hope that, with buffs/additions to utility/CC to all powers within a kit, to varying degrees depending on the nature of the power, such synergy and variety can be achieved. There will always be people who favour one power over the others, but having a kit that is competent in its uses ensures that there will be the option of more variety for builds.

 

Imagine, a Frost who does not focus on Snow Globe, but on Avalanche because it applies a cold proc to enemies in an area who survive, or creates an AoE of cold for a duration that freezes enemies who enter, or leaves an area of Ice on the floor for a duration after casting. Or said Frost could Focus on Ice Wave to build for because it has a knockback mechanic that works for great Area Deny, or it could also freeze enemies in place who survive it. Or a Nekros whose Terrify now acts as an aura around him, thus making him a viable option for enemy group dispersion or debuffing, or whose Soul Punch has an AoE blast around the initial target it hits to harm enemies around it. A Nekros whose Shadows of the Dead now have better AI and boosted HP to help them focus down enemy mobs and can grant the Nekros protection. The list could go on with Frames who people see as one button wonders becoming viable for their other options, and not just seen for their one power.

 

For LoS, I'm a player who hates it, and is adamantly against it, not just because of how it was implemented solely on the 3 frames, but of the massive limitations it has on powers. If they applied that across the board to all frames, I would think that we would've lost more players than we already did. The recalculations of these is hell to work with, not to mention how it would shatter many builds and play styles to just disgruntle and anger the player base. I understand their qualms with the Press 4 to Win strategy, but doing something that drastic isn't something that the community would receive with open arms. The option remains though, if players do not like this strategy, all they simply must do is not use it. Thus, those who enjoy the strategy suffer no ill will, and those who do not use this strategy are pestered by it no more, though their ultimate is still an option that they can use.

 

For PvP, I don't dabble in it really due to the politics of the Dark Sectors. I wouldn't know how to help with this.

 

The Limited Edition Content, I agree that DE should hurry to re-release these mods for the general public to enjoy. And not just for events, but permanently in one fashion or another. Thus, content like that can be re-obtained with reliable availability.

 

Expansions are always good if implemented correctly, and yes, I would think that for a company of DE's size, it may take a while. Even still, we are working on bosses and tile sets within the areas we already have, and though we have made great progress, we still have a long way to go just for the Origin System. We haven't even seen anything they may have cooking up for the Sentient's System (spoilers, haha). I will be excited to see what this expansion will be.

 

To how our community is doing, that is always in flux I suppose. I've seen many new players come in, some experienced players take breaks or leave, and some new players go. But I hope that we here on the forums who wake each day and try to discuss the game are a good example of those who have stayed on for a while now, and of the new faces deciding to voice their opinions on the topics here we discuss. All we can do is work together as a community, discuss and elaborate on our opinions and positions, to try and continue to improve this game, expand on it, and help it grow and attract more players. Changes will be fought against and for, but I hope that as we stumble along, we truly are helping to make WarFrame a great game nonetheless.

[MechaKnight]

Dude, that was extremely astute. I applaud you for your observations!

 

On the topic of powers, I do hope that they strengthen other powers between WarFrames to help players see the variety of usefulness each power in their kit has, and the strength such powers can have when these kits have great synergy. I think some problems arrive when players see only one power as good, and the rest as lackluster, so they choose to go for that one power. It is my hope that, with buffs/additions to utility/CC to all powers within a kit, to varying degrees depending on the nature of the power, such synergy and variety can be achieved. There will always be people who favour one power over the others, but having a kit that is competent in its uses ensures that there will be the option of more variety for builds.

 

Imagine, a Frost who does not focus on Snow Globe, but on Avalanche because it applies a cold proc to enemies in an area who survive, or creates an AoE of cold for a duration that freezes enemies who enter, or leaves an area of Ice on the floor for a duration after casting. Or said Frost could Focus on Ice Wave to build for because it has a knockback mechanic that works for great Area Deny, or it could also freeze enemies in place who survive it. Or a Nekros whose Terrify now acts as an aura around him, thus making him a viable option for enemy group dispersion or debuffing, or whose Soul Punch has an AoE blast around the initial target it hits to harm enemies around it. A Nekros whose Shadows of the Dead now have better AI and boosted HP to help them focus down enemy mobs and can grant the Nekros protection. The list could go on with Frames who people see as one button wonders becoming viable for their other options, and not just seen for their one power.

 

For LoS, I'm a player who hates it, and is adamantly against it, not just because of how it was implemented solely on the 3 frames, but of the massive limitations it has on powers. If they applied that across the board to all frames, I would think that we would've lost more players than we already did. The recalculations of these is hell to work with, not to mention how it would shatter many builds and play styles to just disgruntle and anger the player base. I understand their qualms with the Press 4 to Win strategy, but doing something that drastic isn't something that the community would receive with open arms. The option remains though, if players do not like this strategy, all they simply must do is not use it. Thus, those who enjoy the strategy suffer no ill will, and those who do not use this strategy are pestered by it no more, though their ultimate is still an option that they can use.

 

For PvP, I don't dabble in it really due to the politics of the Dark Sectors. I wouldn't know how to help with this.

 

The Limited Edition Content, I agree that DE should hurry to re-release these mods for the general public to enjoy. And not just for events, but permanently in one fashion or another. Thus, content like that can be re-obtained with reliable availability.

 

Expansions are always good if implemented correctly, and yes, I would think that for a company of DE's size, it may take a while. Even still, we are working on bosses and tile sets within the areas we already have, and though we have made great progress, we still have a long way to go just for the Origin System. We haven't even seen anything they may have cooking up for the Sentient's System (spoilers, haha). I will be excited to see what this expansion will be.

 

To how our community is doing, that is always in flux I suppose. I've seen many new players come in, some experienced players take breaks or leave, and some new players go. But I hope that we here on the forums who wake each day and try to discuss the game are a good example of those who have stayed on for a while now, and of the new faces deciding to voice their opinions on the topics here we discuss. All we can do is work together as a community, discuss and elaborate on our opinions and positions, to try and continue to improve this game, expand on it, and help it grow and attract more players. Changes will be fought against and for, but I hope that as we stumble along, we truly are helping to make WarFrame a great game nonetheless.

 

 

Kits need to be more equal within themselves, but players and developers are afraid of buffing them due to the current limits of the game. Additionally, some powers are seen as duplicates--Shuriken and Blade Storm can be seen as having the same purpose because they are meant to deal damage. The augment serves to differentiate Shuriken, but these troubles can be avoided if warframes are made to be more similar to Limbo, Mesa, and Saryn where none of the 4 abilities do the same task as another within the same kit. It's okay for there to be comparable abilities in different kits (Sonar/Venom/Molecular Prime/Warcry for debuffing), just not on the same warframe. If abilities are equal, we can see a resurgence in variety. The Primed warframe mods aim to fix the problem by making powerful mods that do not give as good of bonuses as their corrupted counterparts, but come close for having no penalties. Buffing abilities is an option, but the game may need to be expanded in some form or else we will stomp everything too easily after our buffs.

 

Yes, second paragraph is cool. I agree. We need more viable options but as of now it's very shocking for players when they learn the best way to play their favorite warframe is to spam one button all day. Frost is Snow Globe, Nekros is Desecrate, Trinity is Energy Vampire, Excalibur is Radial Javelin, Ash is Blade Storm. The list goes on. I want all abilities to be good, but we'll probably need a zone expansion somewhere.

 

As for line-of-sight, the devs are trying to implement an obstacle to promote variety by punishing stale tactics. The stale tactics would probably not exist if every ability was worth using, but there are simply also people who may still use/abuse them because they're lazy. The developers are trying to find a way to sustain their game and make other abilities more appealing, and have targeted the most spammed ability on those three warframes that day. I'm okay with changes either way so long as the end result is good enough. There are multiple ways to solve the problem of "press 4 to win". More complex obstacle enemies like nullifiers, limiting systems where attributes are punished on one ability if that one ability is spammed and no others are used, ability uses spent like ammunition where your abilities have a set limit of casts at a time before they replenish, etc.

 

Dark Sectors and Conclave are our current PvP venues. Their issues are more relevant to the issue of game sustainability with limited edition content. If you don't have it, you're not suited for PvP. Also, "press X to win" is spoken about in PvP with certain abilities that are hard to counter, and/or weapons.

 

For sustainability of limited edition mods, we can fix the problem quite well without even creating new mods. Buff those really bad status mods on Rifles, Shotguns, Sidearms, and Melee from 15% status to 120% status. Buff the physical damage mods on all weapons to 100%, and the event copy can remain at 120%. Buff the cold and electric damage on pistols and melee to 90% as should be standard. With these changes, players can tolerate the absence of limited edition event mods as they wait for their reintroduction. Although some weapons need additional attention as well just but sheer statistic and in-practice disadvantage compared to others.

 

I remember a statistic released from DE that said their team expanded from 8 members to about 20. Still rather small for a dev team. Expansions will help accommodate our strength so "press 4 to win" will be less of an issue against tougher enemies. It will become even less of a problem if Primed mods cycle repeatedly so players will always get them if they wait for the merchant to appear again. However, some of these abilities in general need a rework so they would feel worth using even if your attribute build is geared towards these abilities. Some abilities like Contagion and Slash Dash are so situational you try very hard to justify their use even if you modded towards them.

 

It's all about making Warframe a better game. We point out situations and solutions and hope they are heard, as is the purpose of feedback. "Press 4 to win" is a symptom of other issues like lackluster kit abilities, trivially easy content for "end game", and balance between new and old players. These issues will hopefully be solved one at a time over the year. Hopefully very soon, not Soon™.

Edited January 5, 2015 by MechaKnight

[fatpig84]

Avalanche used to freeze enemies frozen solid for 5 seconds.

During that freeze timer, frost can't use his AOE.

 

DE declared it a bug.... When this was the exact CC a non-globe frost needed.

[Nighttide77]

Warning: large wall of text ahead!  Summary for those of short attention spans at the end in a numbered list!

 

Avalanche used to freeze enemies frozen solid for 5 seconds.

During that freeze timer, frost can't use his AOE.

 

DE declared it a bug.... When this was the exact CC a non-globe frost needed.

 

Rhino technically has an 8 second cooldown on his stomp, of which enemies are somewhat "frozen in time."  That works.  At the moment, if I'm overwhelmed with Frost on a defense (like a couple times facing Grineer in top Syndicate missions), I find myself dropping a large energy pad down and spamming Avalanche until all the enemies just stop shooting.  That sorta spam makes me sad and I'm trying to figure out some strategy that would be more appealing when using Frost.  However, I am doing avalanche in the safety of snow globe, so...I'm not sure if I just need to do something different.  Maybe use an aoe weapon like Penta...  Would be nice if enemies were at least ice proc'd by Avalanche, like ice wave.

 

Instead of buffing or nerfing anything, why not just have different challenges for players?  The void should be basically endgame content and starting players shouldn't think to going there, but not because the enemies are too high level, but because it's too dangerous.  I'm talking better laser traps, a whole hallway that you have to properly parkour through by jumping between walls and sliding or you get lasered in half.  Until you're better at the controls, you wouldn't think to go do a void mission because you'd die in the first trap room.  In fact, why in the world aren't isn't there more platforming in this game?  We've got all these acrobatic maneuvers but no real reason to use them except for secret rooms of which there isn't any real reward for getting to them.  They have implemented random special Corpus/Grineer caches with extra creds, resources and even a 30min booster, but those aren't guaranteed in secret rooms (though they should be for how difficult some of those rooms are).

 

Even archwing should have something timed that makes better use of the trench runs.  I'm not sure why the Balor Fomorians weren't a trench run, because that would make so much sense.  You activate the shield disruptor right when you get beneath the surface of the huge egg, have a certain amount of time to race through a maze of grineer engineering, shoot at the core, and fly back out before the shields are reactivated and you're trapped inside the Fomorian.  That's actually kinda what I was expecting from those missions.  Even the Corpus sabotage missions should be timed trench runs.  In fact, the trenches should have more traps that are lethal...those electric traps in Corpus ships are kind of a joke.

 

Most of the bosses need huge revamps, too, and thankfully Vay Hek was like a small taste of hopefully more to come.  Lephantis was also a good step in the right direction, IMO.  Now we need a boss that you have to use some amount of parkour skills in order to reach their weak spots.  Maybe even make Lephantis climbable so you can attack the heads with a skana (skana for epic reasons).  The "bigger than life" bosses with specific mechanics are the sorts of bosses we need, and I think that's the direction the game is heading.

 

I don't think buffs or nerfs are needed to make the game more challenging and rewarding.  I think we need challenges that aren't simply resolved with bullets and fireballs.  Like...wall running and having to shoot a button on the opposite wall to open a door to get into the next room.  If you don't properly hit the button, you run into the closed door and fall to your doom into a laser trap, or restart at the beginning platform like you usually do when you fall off the edge of a cliff in Phobos.  Or even wall running and having to shoot laser disks as you go or you'll get cut by them.

 

For creating better teamwork, why not figure out how to make powers converge (or punish combos for that matter)?  Ember using fireball inside Frost's snowglobe should have some sort of penalty.  However, Ember using the fireball augment on Ash should allow Ash to do a Flaming Blade Storm.  Overpowered?  Perhaps if it isn't implemented in a way that stops power creep, but still freaking cool.  Or even having Volt's augment give Ember a Storming World on Fire.  As it is, there are attempts at combos, like Limbo and Mesa, but that's not as cool as if the combos made some difference in execution.

 

Whether or not there is a nerf or buff of powers and weapons, the action is still the same: opponents get squashed.  Whether it's easy, hard, or just frustrating, enemies are squashed and you can only do it so many times before you're bored one way or the other (unless you're like me and Rhino Stomp never gets old).  The only way I think players will truly feel any challenge is when they are challenged as individuals: by challenging their reflexes, attention to detail, and problem solving skills.  New or high level common/uncommon enemies aren't the way to challenge attention to detail or problem solving skills because once you've figured them out, it's dry from there on.  Rare enemies (like mini-bosses or bosses in general) should have that sort of challenge to reflexes, detail, and problem solving.  Such enemies should be 90% immune to CC from powers or proc, but should have conditions set to allow solo players to defeat them.

 

I think Corrupted Vor is a perfect example of challenging players as individuals.  He zips around so much you have to test your reflexes.  He telegraphs when he's about to throw that yellow garbage at you and if you don't pay heed, it's gg.  You have to actually aim in order to hit him such that he'll be defeated.  However, the problem is that he's an enemy; the solution is that you shoot him till he disappears.  And that's the way it should be in the case of fighting enemies.  You should shoot or melee enemies.  Therefore, in order to challenge players' problem solving ability, we need challenges that do not take the form of enemies.  I think the perfect solution to that is the parkour system.  Puzzle tiles in the void or derelicts that require platforming to complete the mission.

 

Since the game can be played solo, having challenges that requires teamwork doesn't really seem an option...  Though, being able to jump a little higher with the aid of a teammate would be fun.

 

And, I know not everyone likes platforming.  Not everyone likes puzzles, either.  However, Warframe already has Mastery tests that use platforming, and pretty much a foundation to incorporate jumping/wall running puzzles like Prince of Persia (but with guns).  Platforming seems like a natural solution to finding a way to challenge players' problem solving skills.  I can't think of another problem solving challenge that would be natural to Warframe.

 

Oh, and one thing this game definitely needs is a mentoring program of some sort.  For fostering a good community, that should be a priority.

 

So, personally, I think we don't need to buff or nerf anything.  I think what I said can be summarized in the following:

 

1) Create a warframe synergy system that makes it awesome to team with people, and not just "we need a Nekros for desecration."

2) Update the bosses and make more mini-bosses that challenge reflexes and attention to detail.

3) Make more tiles for the Void and Derelicts (and maybe other tiles) that requires platforming to get from beginning to end.

4) Make trench runs in Archwing missions timed with lethal traps for screwing up.  There's too much forgiveness for jetting face-first into walls.

 

My arguments simply lie in these three things to challenge in players: reflexes, attention to detail, and problem solving skills.  I don't believe buffing or nerfing powers, or more types of common enemies, or higher level common enemies truly challenge reflexes, keenly watching details, or problem solving.  Bosses, mini-bosses, and platforming should all challenge players in these ways, and by having this, I'm sure more people will be satisfied that they are being challenged as players and not whether they've maxed out, potatoed or modded their stuff.

[fatpig84]

snip

 

I argue Avalanche was superior.

Enemies were frozen stiff in their tracks, giving you easy head shots instead of floating around.

Range is shorter but damage is heavier than what a Stomp can put out as well.

 

Downside is, if you are playing for kills, Avalanche will only apply it's damage after the freeze duration was over.

And this might have rattled enough Kill count warriors to demand a change.

 

Which was unfortunate.

Edited January 5, 2015 by fatpig84