Press 4 To Win

[Nighttide77]

Oh, and for those people that don't like the idea of having to jump and wall run in the Void to get from beginning to end, try to consider there are already laser traps and things that require ducking and jumping to get passed them.  Making a whole tile just based on traps isn't too far from some of the Void tiles that already exist.

[Nighttide77]

 

For sustainability of limited edition mods, we can fix the problem quite well without even creating new mods. Buff those really bad status mods on Rifles, Shotguns, Sidearms, and Melee from 15% status to 120% status. Buff the physical damage mods on all weapons to 100%, and the event copy can remain at 120%. Buff the cold and electric damage on pistols and melee to 90% as should be standard. With these changes, players can tolerate the absence of limited edition event mods as they wait for their reintroduction. Although some weapons need additional attention as well just but sheer statistic and in-practice disadvantage compared to others.

 

Why in the world those status mods that only give 15% benefit haven't been addressed seems like the same issue with how a 7-day login reward still gives stuff like 10k credits and sentinel XP... blech...

[geninrising]

I just wanted to give a shout out to MechaKnight, Nighttide77, and AlphaHorseman. You three are exactly the types of players I was hoping ot get the attention of.

 

My primary reason for putting together this post was to attract the attention of some players that are truly aware of the problem we face and are able to put this problem into perspective in perhaps another way than I have stated before. Thank you guys and I can only hope that this vein of thought will continue and perhaps multiply.

 

As an aside, I will be creating a separate post based on MechaKnight's most recent wall o'text as I feel it brings up a serious concern that needs to be clearly addressed by DE.

[Nighttide77]

I just wanted to give a shout out to MechaKnight, Nighttide77, and AlphaHorseman. You three are exactly the types of players I was hoping ot get the attention of.

 

My primary reason for putting together this post was to attract the attention of some players that are truly aware of the problem we face and are able to put this problem into perspective in perhaps another way than I have stated before. Thank you guys and I can only hope that this vein of thought will continue and perhaps multiply.

 

As an aside, I will be creating a separate post based on MechaKnight's most recent wall o'text as I feel it brings up a serious concern that needs to be clearly addressed by DE.

 

I think we need to keep topics like these going so it garners more attention.  Even though I truly enjoy what Warframe has to offer right now, that doesn't change the fact that the only action Warframe has to offer is endlessly taking on hordes of cannon fodder and tougher cannon fodder.  There is a bit of a challenge with a few bosses, but that development and taking better advantage of the parkour system needs to be a major focus.

[AlphaHorseman]

-Awesome Deductions-

Synergy, more challenge not only in the form of our enemies, but in the obstacles we face, it opens up a new dynamic to the conversation.

 

Increased need to use parkour and the other movement aspects of the game, as the player progresses through the map, sounds like an interesting way to help up challenge outside of just making enemies more bullet sponges. Not to mention our bosses that will be getting their reworks soon. I hope they don't just make them bullet sponges, actual challenge like how the new Vay Hek boss has is a good start, but we need to continue building on that.

 

Maybe we don't need a full on puzzle system for players to have to trudge around and deal with, simply because that would break the fast paced flow of the game for some players. Although, expanding on the possibilities of using parkour is something I can agree to. Most maps already do this, but the ways are less obvious. Expanding on these areas and how to traverse them can help to flesh out the movement system and show players many different avenues to getting to their goals, not just from A to B. But taking route C which could be a stealthier or faster route, only harder because it demands you traverse certain obstacles

 

I remember there's a Parkour thread back in General Discussion or Feedback that expanded upon this, I don't know who started it, but it garnered some massive attention and is well read throughout the community. This topic can expand from that.

 

Of course, I'm still one for buffing the CC/Utility/Scale Ability of powers that do not have these to help create synergy within a WarFrames powers kit, and a stable foundation for augments to complement/expand upon. But you bring up an extremely valid point, and I hope that this is something they look at as well. From my position, I would say that fleshing out and reworking powers to be some degree of effective throughout content is a great step, and expanding on and tweaking the foundation of the Parkour system, and our bosses, is also avenues we need to take to help and expand and strengthen the game.

 

EDIT:

 

Thank heavens we are actually getting a mentoring program in the new year, that should help. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[SIDESTRE4M]

Warframe is by no means easy. It indeed is if you are a veteran, if you finally know what you are doing, if you gathered all the stuff you need for viable builds, if you dump platinum in this game to get more forma/potatoes.

There exists another Warframe. A world where small Tenno try to survive. Where two friends just want to play a fun coop-game. A game that is flexible. A game where you can try soloing every mission, no matter what, without having the fear of having no chance without a big clan.

 

There also exists a warframe where not everyone tries press4-tactics. In fact you have to watch out if you play against lvl35 grineer, if you don't use cheesy tactics.

 

Team coordination is always appreciated, but there are limits. I don't want a game with a huge gap between players who know what they are doing and those who don't/still learning. Public games will be a pain even more.

 

Not everything needs to be done in big scale, not everyone wants big raids or a toxic competition like in LOL. Personally I don't want that S#&$ that happens in Left4Dead.

 

I'm not saying you guys don't have a point, but keep your minds flexible.

Warframe's problem seems to be, that the game didn't find out yet, what exactly it wants to be. The devs seem to chose a diffuse direction by just adding stuff here and there and wonder what to do the day after.

 

Vanquish boss fights could be a direction for Warframe to go to. It's action packed, multi phased, fast paced, punishing at times. There are patterns to learn, but you don't have to study wiki for hours to know what to do. Also you need much movement to survive.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited January 5, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Nighttide77]

Yeah...team coordination kinda sucks if your team doesn't work together.  Accidentally walk over that edge?  Oops, your team doesn't care and leaves ya hanging (pun intended).  Activate a power that knocks down enemies but then freezes you so you have to rely on a teammate to finish the enemies off?  Teammate does a similar power move that does nothing but make enemies angrier.

 

Teaming should be a benefit, but not a requirement.

[geninrising]

Honestly what I am looking to do with this thread is simply this, keep an eye towards the evolution of the game.

 

What we need to do as beta testers is provide as much feedback on what we see and how these things make us feel. This ultimately creates a better game overall for every player not just the veterans and not just the new players who quite frankly have a massively long period of time before they reach grind burn out.

 

The propositions by all the players in this thread are thus far exactly how you would expect skilled players to react to the current content and the burnout that occurs due to the monotony of the every day grind. Grind your rep, grind some parts, then head to endless.

 

We currently have a routine that very rarely shakes us from the doldrums of every day MMOs, however here we do not have a goal of being able to complete anything(this is where the average player points at the MR system citing it as a goal).

 

It is no news flash to all players that the MR system is absolutely lacking as a reward mechanic. Beyond MR 8 there is nothing to entice players to commit to all that hard work. Extra syndicate is a start and a good one at that. It allows players who have been more dedicated to earning said rank(I am aware this is simply a process of equipping a weapon and having teammates kill things) to alleviate the time gating on their syndicate purchases.

 

Although there are many small benefits to MR they are not really anything to be touted as a goal. I am currently MR 16 (almost 17 yaaay*shrugs*) and there is currently no reason to want to be MR 16. I think this is where DE needs to re-think the MR system and focus on giving their players a great reason to advance throughout this meaningless hierarchy that has been established and then ignored for so long.

 

Goals and Aspirations

Any good game shows you things that are just out of reach and then gives you the opportunity to work hard and obtain them while overcoming considerable challenge along the way.

 

Currently it just feels like WF is relying too much on new players and is for the most part allowing it's veterans to just burnout without a care. Hopefully this is where Focus comes in to save the majority of us from grind burnout. I am hopeful but realistically without a change to the dynamics of the game,ie: more challenging maps or interesting mechanics the focus system will just be a stop gap to keep players hanging on a bit longer to see that pinnacle of power.

Edited January 5, 2015 by geninrising

[Nighttide77]

Yeah...it would be nice if the game had more challenge than just exercising my aiming with a mouse and small coordination and timing with melee.  The syndicate medallions were a nice touch and made me start trying to figure out those hidden rooms.  Made me realize there's more depth to the levels than I previously thought.  But...there isn't much flare to that anymore, especially after figuring out the puzzle to the secret room the first time.  There isn't enough reward for secret rooms.

 

Doesn't Vindictus pretty much have a similar grind?  Yet, that game still seems to be around.

 

I agree with that on MR, too.

 

At the moment, there doesn't seem to be much in the endgame arena that I could go back to and expect to have my reflexes and observation skills challenged.

[MotherofHermes]

the press 4 to win problem. oh geez. let me try to add to this awesome conversation going down. 

 

So, how a game should be developed, buffed, nerfed, etc. depends on what kind of game it is. For instance, League of legends is a moba so it is constantly balanced to give all characters a win rate around 50 % if possible (let's not argue this here, it's an example). 

 

How should Warframe be balanced? That requires a definition of what Warframe "IS" 

 

Based on what is available to us and what is changed/balanced. Warframe is diablo/gauntlet/dungeoncrawler. 

 

You walk into a room. you see enemies. you kill enemies. you get stuff. single target damage (in the form of guns) are used. And large aoe (in the form of "4") is used. 

 

Currently, "wizards" are recking the house (as they do in many rpgs) in the form of high damage aoe's. Currently, the cummunity sees issue in that the other frames (classes) are not doing as well as these damage wizards and their support (trinity). 

 

The options are to buff these other frames and make more wizards basically, nerf these other wizards to a managable level, or another option..

 

remove magic from the game. 

 

removing ninja space magic at it's current level in the game would change the entire meta understanding of the warframe genre. 

 

is it a co op shooter, is it a stealth game, is it a 3rd person bullet hell arcade shooter. What IS (bold, italics, multicolor, and add in a gif on this is) Warframe would change with the reduction of this magic. As such, ideas are near impossible to make as it could end of the game if not handled properly. 

 

My recommendation is to keep this feeling of gauntlet/diablo/crawler make the room explode wonder in the isolated area known as archwing or perhaps on certain mission types where an excuse could be formulated (you are defending an ancient tenno artifact, become a badass for all 4 moves). meanwhile. in sneaky missions tenno should have to be sneaky and not walking atomic bombs (kinda literal with nova). In rescue missions we can't irradiate the hostage. in survival missions maybe something went wrong and we weren't prepared. In each of these a different trope of shooter, stealth game, and par-core madness can be found. Until DE selects another genre than dungeon crawl we will keep killing space orcs and receiving a plus 5 sword over our plus 4 sword. 

 

This decision of genre is not one to be taken lightly, and may not even require a whole new development concept in order to implement. As such, i can understand why certain buff/nerfs for frames have not taken place as an underpowered state is always easier to handle than an overpowered one. 

 

For now, the best thing that can be done (and the most challenging) would be the diversification of weapon styles and uses. currently. certain frames and especially certain weapons are the "thing" to have and everything else is less dps (see how we are in dungeon crawler land here). by changing what tools are good for what (such as rocket launchers being good for aoe but low on ammo for clearing trash groups (this may or may not be a good example im not starting a different thread here)) will increase diversification and what different ways to play there are. 

 

Going back to the League of legends example. It is the same game every time, but different characters give it a different feel when used. Support, Tank, assassin. These are tropes we see in many games including the dungeon crawler landscape that warframe exists in. Until all the best frames stop filling a press 4 to win power fantasy, i doubt other frames will be chosen too often. Trinity fills the support role. Frost is the defensive point guy. Most of the other frames attempt to fill other fantasys, but arn't as strong as our wizards. When everyone can select wizard as a viable option, therein lies the problem. 

 

I can't currently give too much more feedback due to the fact that i would be selecting another genre which is not my place as a player. 

 

However, i can say that genre can be built into the environment rather than the frames. Location X has walls that make all powers LOS. location Y is earth and doesn't have these walls. Location Z requires stealth or instant failure. etc. However, in order for this to be successful there must be equal reason, fun, and content in location X, Y, and Z. I doubt that DE can put that out all at once. 

[Redhux]

The press 4 to win thing is a problem /...

 

 

LoL.

 

Nope, YOU think it is a problem, others don't.

 

It is about preferences.

 

Seriously, why do you even mod your warframe, or why do you even play?

 

If you're so happy with that, take your Mk1-Braton POS® Deluxe Edition and unModed frame and play endless LoLares on Mercury.

 

 

 

 

 

Come on , seriously.

[Nighttide77]

LoL.

 

Nope, YOU think it is a problem, others don't.

 

It is about preferences.

 

Seriously, why do you even mod your warframe, or why do you even play?

 

If you're so happy with that, take your Mk1-Braton POS® Deluxe Edition and unModed frame and play endless LoLares on Mercury.

 

 

 

 

 

Come on , seriously.

 

Plz keep it cool...this was a very objective discussion where we weren't taking shots at each other.

[Azawarau]

Plz keep it cool...this was a very objective discussion where we weren't taking shots at each other.

Hes been crying that attitude in the next thread over as well

 

Just here to troll derail the topic to lock

 

Report incoming

[Redhux]

Plz keep it cool...this was a very objective discussion where we weren't taking shots at each other.

 

I'm cool, no problem.

 

Establishing that P42W is a problem is very subjective.

[Redhux]

Hes been crying that attitude in the next thread over as well

 

Just here to troll derail the topic to lock

 

Report incoming

 

Haha, who's crying here?

 

Man, it is a forum, everyone is free to express its personnal opinion.

 

Looks like your imaginating things.

 

Should i report you for false report? Doh.

[pavlo555]

What about now really making a cooldown , but a mere recharge ? If i press 4 once , i will need some time to use it at FULL POWER again , If i don't wait , i will just CC some enemies . So it's like if i take excalibro , press 4 once , i will need to wait some time to deal ~2k dmg again , OR i press 4 again instantly , deal ~500 dmg , still stun them for shorter time , reset the timer . We can make this for some abilities like javelin , reckoning , etc.

We also can make quick spam of blessing still healing 100% granting that % of immunity we healed bros for , BUT we WONT SLAM OUR HANDS SO QUICK (some punishment to ridiculous insta-cast time) . (And EV actually should stay as it is ... just sayin) .

Rhino stomp may suffer from range ,

Mag's polarize may have such mechanic - we pressed that HERE  and IF we press uber quick , we will have lower range NEAR MAG , and STILL HIT EVERYTHING @ "HERE" which will reduce overtime , pretty logical that this thing may be removed with shield transference so making mag more flexible - uber booben-style 420 polarizer , or that tank we sometimes meet on corpus missions (pls DE make her resist explosions while in shield orb) .

[geninrising]

LoL.

 

Nope, YOU think it is a problem, others don't.

 

It is about preferences.

 

Seriously, why do you even mod your warframe, or why do you even play?

 

If you're so happy with that, take your Mk1-Braton POS® Deluxe Edition and unModed frame and play endless LoLares on Mercury.

 

 

 

 

 

Come on , seriously.

No guys he is correct this is his opinion and it is deserving of our respect. Not everyone has to agree with us, nor will they.

 

Redhux, the reason for this particular thread is the fact that unfortunately the P42W gameplay directly prohibits certain players from playing the way they want to. Time and again I have seen people support this as completely ok, however those same individuals are absolutely ruining the game for anyone that does not want to play that way due to the fact that they wreck everything prior to that person even having an opportunity to utilize sword/gunplay.

 

This game is supposed to be about choice and the only thing that playstyle does is REMOVE others playstyles as as a valid choice.

[AlphaHorseman]

What about now really making a cooldown , but a mere recharge ? If i press 4 once , i will need some time to use it at FULL POWER again , If i don't wait , i will just CC some enemies . So it's like if i take excalibro , press 4 once , i will need to wait some time to deal ~2k dmg again , OR i press 4 again instantly , deal ~500 dmg , still stun them for shorter time , reset the timer . We can make this for some abilities like javelin , reckoning , etc.

We also can make quick spam of blessing still healing 100% granting that % of immunity we healed bros for , BUT we WONT SLAM OUR HANDS SO QUICK (some punishment to ridiculous insta-cast time) . (And EV actually should stay as it is ... just sayin) .

Rhino stomp may suffer from range ,

Mag's polarize may have such mechanic - we pressed that HERE  and IF we press uber quick , we will have lower range NEAR MAG , and STILL HIT EVERYTHING @ "HERE" which will reduce overtime , pretty logical that this thing may be removed with shield transference so making mag more flexible - uber booben-style 420 polarizer , or that tank we sometimes meet on corpus missions (pls DE make her resist explosions while in shield orb) .

I don't know about that. Again, it requires a huge penalization of people who play the way they want to play, and merely because they are utilizing the tools at hand to do so. We shouldn't be hurting players simply because they play the way they want to play.

[ZukaBazuka]

Would say the problem is the other 3 skills they have. Most warframes have 2 damage abilities, where one is a nuke the other single hit with S#&$ damage. That doesn't even hold up after enemies reach level 10. Reason everyone see press 4 to win is because its the only skill that really does damage and deal with the enemies. Not all frames have this problem but most do. The other skills are most often not just worth using when you consider how effective it actually is. The first skill for most frames look like S#&$ and most often forgotten by people.

[AlphaHorseman]

LoL.

 

Nope, YOU think it is a problem, others don't.

 

It is about preferences.

 

Seriously, why do you even mod your warframe, or why do you even play?

 

If you're so happy with that, take your Mk1-Braton POS® Deluxe Edition and unModed frame and play endless LoLares on Mercury.

 

 

 

 

 

Come on , seriously.

Your opinion is your own, but another valid point comes up:

 

 

Would say the problem is the other 3 skills they have. Most warframes have 2 damage abilities, where one is a nuke the other single hit with S#&$ damage. That doesn't even hold up after enemies reach level 10. Reason everyone see press 4 to win is because its the only skill that really does damage and deal with the enemies. Not all frames have this problem but most do. The other skills are most often not just worth using when you consider how effective it actually is. The first skill for most frames look like S#&$ and most often forgotten by people.

 

thus why I proposed that we help buff up skills that don't have CC/Utility, or very mitigated CC/Utility and also reworking others to help them along the way of scale ability not in damage, but with use outside of it. Abilities falling flat because they are damage abilities is what helps to limit peoples choice in what powers to use, thus we get the "Press [insert power number here] to win" strategies. Skills falling flat because they can't work makes players use only one skill that actually does work after a period of time.

 

With all our skills actually having functionality outside of being damage numbers, it provides options for players to use, rather than just spamming one power that may not be best suited for the situation. If you're hitting a mob with your most powerful ability, then sure, go for it, but if you're hitting a small group of enemies (or even 1) in front of you with that same ability, simply because it's the most effective way to deal with the mob since this is the only ability that either scales, or has cc/utility, then there's an issue with other powers in that kit you have to look at.

[Redhux]

No guys he is correct this is his opinion and it is deserving of our respect. Not everyone has to agree with us, nor will they.

 

Redhux, the reason for this particular thread is the fact that unfortunately the P42W gameplay directly prohibits certain players from playing the way they want to. Time and again I have seen people support this as completely ok, however those same individuals are absolutely ruining the game for anyone that does not want to play that way due to the fact that they wreck everything prior to that person even having an opportunity to utilize sword/gunplay.

 

This game is supposed to be about choice and the only thing that playstyle does is REMOVE others playstyles as as a valid choice.

 

I understand your opinion and i agree with you on the fact that everyone should be able to play the way they want without beiing bothered by freaks and aliens (Players that already have mastered their frame and maximised it to the extreme).

 

It is legitimate.

 

 

On the other hand, each player have to face reality, if you're a beginner (a real one for example, Mk1 Craps etc etc) it would be wise to not try a mission that will be impossible to achieve with the current gear (I repeat, it is a situational example).

 

I saw some player coming on Uranus Interception (One of the higher Inter with grineers, +/- lvl 30) completely unprepared.

 

I think DE should works on that, rendering infos more clear and understandable for beginners.

 

There should be a better indicator of the difficulty level based on the gear you're equiping. Because let's face it honestly, the level is a false indicator. The mods installed makes the difference. You can be a Frame lvl 30, if you have low mods, you'll be in troubles.

 

I guess you get my point.

 

That would probably help to solve the mysunderstanding about experienced players and "less" experienced players.

[Azawarau]

Haha, who's crying here?

 

Man, it is a forum, everyone is free to express its personnal opinion.

 

Looks like your imaginating things.

 

Should i report you for false report? Doh.

*Carrying

[MechaKnight]

I've been playing the game and reading the forums for a long time. We're about to lose our void keys from syndicates, as is being said on the forums recently. So let's talk about...

 

Why Press #, why do we win when we do it, and what is the game Warframe supposed to be? What are the problems, and why "Press # to win" is a problem as well as a symptom.

 

Why spam # in gameplay?

It's not restricted to just damage nukes, one can say Desecrating for extra loot and life support is a problem, Trinity playing as a pure Energy Vampire build, Vauban being a pure Vortex build, and other builds which dwindle themselves down to become one-trick ponies since we don't care about the other three abilities. Also a running trend, these one-trick builds have a frequent tendency to kill the warframe ability augments either because we don't mod towards the attribute stats the augment uses, or because our one-button build needs to use all those slots.

 

We understand the case, but why do we do it? It's happening because between locking enemies down to stay in one location and not harm us, make enemies powerless, or outright kill them, if we can do this using only one ability and overcharge to be overpowered, we sure as hek are going to do it.

 

Why do we win when we do it? Why are other strategies less effective?

There are no limiting systems which dictate we can only use a power 1 to 3 times in a row during some amount of time before we don't want to anymore. It's not like we lose the ability to spam, or our spam becomes less effective, or because our other abilities are worth using--building for only one ability even at the peril of all the other abilities and augments is totally okay with the way the game is designed because it's the best way from point A to point B, and there are no penalties for it.

 

Meanwhile, playing a more balanced build that is more fun and varied is generally not as effective because most of our abilities are not as good as our best ability. One can argue that energy cost is a valid reason, but when our "most expensive" ability can come at the price of a single energy orb, and our generally inferior #1 abilities don't match the ability of our #4 ability even when we cast our first ability 20 times over and ignore the energy cost to do it, clearly it's just not a valid option. This is a comparison of both abilities that do the same task as well as abilities that do different tasks. Ash's Shuriken is not as valid as his Blade Storm for killing enemies, and Saryn's Venom, although used debuffing, is not as effective as Miasma since it's way easier to harm enemies in a general vicinity and often kill them than it is to use precision to fire at spores and spread them.

 

Some warframes are even encouraged to spam only one ability, since one inverse attribute can be seen as a positive so long as the good attributes on the only ability you care about are still high. Trinity and Saryn builds tend to go for low duration at the cost of their other abilities since the duration mechanics reward us for doing so, and our range and strength attributes are still high as we want them.

 

So the reason why this seemingly bad idea of nerfing your kit for one ability is actually a good idea in this game is because the option is generally overpowered, we aren't penalized for it, and the game certainly doesn't put up a good fight against us to resist.

 

That's another set of points right there. Is the game built around our ability? Why do some people want a stronger game opponent, why do other people not want strong opponents? Why do some players want our abilities to be less dispensable, why do others want to remain so powerful? Does this game possess any challenge? What is challenge? What should challenge be?

 

Is the game built around our ability? Hek no. Excalibur Radial Javelin mega-nuke builds carried the Alad V Mutalist Incursions event because the game's enemies are not balanced around our ability to stack 3 maxed strength mods on him and 2 range mods to make a 60 meter death nuke. Once, the Infested were trivially easy until their Mutalist Moa troops arrived. Corpus were fodder for abilities until the Nullifier was introduced.

 

So, does our community want stronger opponents in enemies? Seems like it, but not unanimously. There were relatively few threads about the new enemies. For the Mutalist Moas, threads simply didn't want them being so deadly, even though that's their general purpose. For the Nullifiers, threads wanted them to be easier to kill because these players didn't want to get in close to endanger their abilities. However, most of us now agree they are a good addition that enriches our gameplay experience by providing a challenge. Speaking to friends in the game, we always wanted something that wasn't ability fodder and gave more importance to using weapons. To those who didn't like the new challenge these enemies brought, they just wanted to continue their meaningless farming... or is the farming not meaningless? We'll arrive to this point later.

 

Post-analysis note: Did you notice I didn't say anything about Grineer Drahk Masters? Probably not, and neither did I until a bit later. These enemies are designed to steal our guns from us, and the community has been completely silent about them. It seems that gunplay is heavily depreciated in this game, because nobody cares about losing their gun when they barely used their guns at all. That's another point we'll reach later.

 

Does our community want abilities to be less dispensable? Mostly no. Many threads appear talking about the issue of "press 4 to win", but the closest approximate conclusion is that while we do want to use abilities constantly in gameplay, we just don't want the game to fall apart so easily every time we do it. Other abilities are meaningless, guns are meaningless, melee is meaningless, aim is meaningless, sometimes even walking is meaningless depending on the range of our ability. I have seen people use epic radial room-cleaking nukes just to kill a single flying osprey they were annoyed to aim at. They sometimes don't even try, they use the power of a room-destroyer to kill one little enemy that could die in a single bullet.

 

Gameplay at this point for many people is hard to justify. Many players have quit the game after going hours into a T4 survival with only a couple of people, or running through a mission and not doing anything besides pressing 4, and winning when we do it. So... there's a few ways of solving this scenario.

 

1) Make enemies stronger

2) Make abilities weaker

3) Make abilities less dispensable.

 

The developers have already been implementing option #1, although they do so at a snail's pace, and it's not solving the problem everywhere. T4 void keys were good and so was the late planet buff that boosted enemy levels on Ceres and Pluto to reach a possible level 35-45 range on some nodes. Corpus Nullifiers in Corpus and Void levels are considered a major success in depreciating ability spam and increasing the importance of weapons. Mutalist Ospreys served to force us into mobility instead of raining abilities and bullets down on the heads of our enemies from safe perches. Grineer Drahks... didn't really do anything because we have two guns on us, and gameplay these days isn't really focused on guns despite this game's advertised identity as a shooter. That's another point we'll get to later. As for now, option #1 is a successful option the devs should stick with.

 

Option #2 was explored in the aftermath of Viver and Syndicate point farming. Line-of-sight was implemented to keep the ability strength the same but diminish their mindlessly destructive capacity. Part of the reason why the playerbase didn't accept the change was because it was not applied universally on all 20 warframes at the time, but a lot of the voice behind this issue was that we didn't want to lose effectiveness on our abilities. It helped us farm more effectively. This farming is a recurring theme.

 

Option #3 was not explored in the slightest after closed beta over a year ago but there really should be more attempts at it. Players holed up in rooms waiting for their abilities to replenish before moving on to the next room. Enemies stopped spawning in the room depending on where the player was standing and whether or not someone was looking at a spawn point. The old hard-timer cooldown mechanic was lost due to players overextending the time of missions by hiding too long. However, energy for abilities was nowhere near as dispensable as it is now, and enemies are much less durable and do much less damage than they did back in closed beta too. The game's obstacles have gotten far easier, yet our ability limits were simultaneously skyrocketing as cooldowns were removed and we were given a lot more energy to play with. This is one of the origins of "press 4 to win."

 

The limiting can be enforced in other ways besides solid timer-based cooldowns between every cast of an ability. Spending abilities on a replenishing counter (ammunition) is one way to do it. Let's think about gameplay to understand how valid it is.

 

If we spam one radial nuke, that's fine. If we spam 2 radial damage nukes in a row, our damage just fell off and we did it to finish the job. If we use a radial damage nuke 3 times or more in a row, it's blatant power farming. That said, there should be a perk to using all 4 of our abilities instead of using only ability #4 (or other ability #). This system can make earlier abilities more dispensable relative to later ones, like giving the first ability 14 casts, giving the second ability 10 casts, giving the third ability 6 casts, and giving the final ability 2 casts. This draft is following the expression of...

 

(10 - 2*ability#) + (8 - 2*ability#)

 

Ability casts before replenishment:

14/10/6/2

 

The expression is made so our first ability is exponentially more dispensable than our fourth ability. It will give it some reason to be used and modded towards, but I can still see stubborn players waiting between casts to let replenishing fill up a unit, and still modding towards the radial ultimates in an attempt to still farm play the most efficient way, scraping by on a frequent limit that can easily be covered by a tiny bit of gunfire or a tiny bit of teamwork. And then, if you actually organize into a team the limit isn't really there anymore anyway.

 

The above ammo limitation was suggested to me by a friend and I've polished it a bit. The system I originally schemed was a limiting system that penalized us for spam similarly to how the Operation: Gate Crash event challenged us by lowering our ability attributes from however we modded them beyond base 1.0 down to nearly 0. All attributes were lowered (duration, strength, range, efficiency), so the abilities in general became less effective.

 

My proposed system works similarly, where casting your radial ultimate will be penalized in all attributes simultaneously when you cast it 3 times in a row, and the penalty stacks every next increment if you don't wait for the ability to replenish itself back to the full power. Additionally, other abilities you have not been using often enough get stronger once you do use them as they overcharge themselves. If you were a player that spammed a radial nuke, you'll be spamming weak radial nukes but your other abilities will become stronger. If you take on a more balanced play style where you use your other abilities and don't use your radial ultimate, you will get stronger ultimates via overcharge. There can also be some number tweaking to make earlier abilities exponentially more dispensable and overall useful compared to the radial ultimate.

 

But why am I going through such trouble to make earlier abilities better than ultimates? Because ultimates are already exponentially better for only a linear cost. You will not cast Slash Dash 30 times over and still expect it to be as good as one Radial Javelin. Meanwhile, said Radial Javelin only costs 4 times as much as Slash Dash. That's an obvious problem. It can be solved simply: either make all other abilities better (buff), or make radial ultimates worse (nerf). I'm actually not concerned with either option. We simply know radial ultimates have become the mainstay of this game, and define what it is despite what it was advertised to be.

 

What was this game supposed to be? What has it evolved into? Just look at the trailers for this game, they're beautiful but as players of warframe for such a long time they show a painful truth. As I've played deep into this game and watched

, it hit me like a ton of bricks: as epic as those scenes and those tenno and those weapons were, I'd call them worse-than-noobs for taking over a thousand times longer as a team to clear that nearly empty room of corpus and Alad V than I would have completely solo. But wait... didn't we like that trailer? Didn't we appreciate the cool scenes, awesome characters, awesome guns, cool powers, cool villain? Look how balanced that gameplay was, they didn't use powers all throughout, some guns and melee were used. Rhino didn't even have Iron Skin on 24/7. Volt only cast his radial nuke at the end after being overcharged with energy. The trailer looked fun and balanced, and unlike many game trailers all of what was depicted within was very accurate... except for the one glaring problem.

 

Let's consider the real gameplay scenario: Speed in with Volt, cast Overload once. That room's all dead. You didn't even have to care about your positioning in that room, really. You just had to be in it. Boss fight? Overload, Speed + melee stagger, Shock to stun. Repeat until dead. Mag would be even quicker: Shield Polarize would mostly kill the room of grunts, and another Shield Polarize would already down Alad V before you took a single step forward in the boss room.

 

Tenno, did you really believe... it would BE.... THIS... EASY?!

 

No. We did not think the game would be this easy. Almost universally throughout the entire game, 24/7. Many of us want it to be even harder, but many also don't want to be penalized... but then, why penalize our farming efficiency? Why do we fear it?

 

Is this Warframe, or Four-frame? Or War-Farm?

All of the above. We came for the amazing design and concept of the game, stay because... well, mostly for new stuff but honestly with this many people being seen leaving it's hard to justify. The new items don't add any additional dimension to the game, they're just arbitrary goals. Additionally, since we are losing syndicate keys, our grind will be even harder.

 

We already work hard to find the source of specific void keys, to grind that location's random number gamble as efficiently as possible. We then go to the void to grind some more random number gambles as much as possible. Repeat the cycle until new prime is assembled.

 

Regardless of how you play, that's the metagame of warframe. We grind a lot, and therefore want the most efficient way to do it possible. Guns, melee, powers are all fair game. We're just trying to get new stuff as time goes on, but as I've said earlier..

 

Part of the problem with new stuff is some of it is around for a limited time in events. Players who missed said events will not have the mods and weapons we acquired within them. The mods are more of a problem, as I can't even show new players a link to my build without them telling me they don't have a mod, and as I verify which one they're missing, it's usually an event mod. At which point, I tell them they're out of luck unless they buy some platinum and try their luck in trade. Prime parts can also be acquired through trade too.

 

Part of the reason players spam powers so much is that their guns aren't up to quality with the rest of the players, and the other part of the reason is that farming = profit. The community has become competitive through these means, and toxic as well. We're bitterly farming to save ourselves from the intense powercreep, and feeding our platinum/ducats/syndicate wallets to save ourselves from whatever impulse famine comes next. For example, removing void keys from merchants. The reason why players defend "press 4 to win" is because sadly, it's looking increasingly like a necessity, and sometimes the developers start to look less like friends and more like adversaries. I prefer we work together instead of being fearful of one another.

 

I still remember the devstream DE_Steve was given the question, "did you learn anything over your time developing this game?" He responds, "Yes. Don't make everything overpowered." I understand his plight exactly. It bothers many of us players that the game is looking trivial to the point of pointless, but I can imagine the developers see it the same way too. Line-of-sight mechanics, repeat nerfs to Trinity, Mutalist robot-infested and Nullifiers are all ways to keep us in check with the game as advertised by trailer, as imagined dancing in our heads for why we like this game, and as a way to give players the experience developers intended. They do listen to the community, but it's very hard to change this cycle in motion when players get so angry over a power restriction change. I like my powers to be strong too but something has to be done so that the game doesn't fall apart so easily when we play using our accumulated power. This is especially apparent in void which is our only endgame outlet with decent rewards, because those enemies are nowhere near strong enough to withstand our ability spam, even with the Nullifiers added in.

 

Does this game possess challenge? As of currently, not for us experienced players. New players have tons of challenge learning a completely unexplained game with many complicated systems, and will eventually discover this game's events have created meaningful history, which has also left them behind in a savage cycle of powercreep since there are no comparable options to the mods they just missed (3x event mods with 60% element/60 status compared to weak 60% cold mod, weak 60% shock mod, and weak 15% status mod).

 

Our challenge is in the RNG and wait. Grind stacks of random number gambles for items, wait for foundry items, event progress, alerts, Stalker. I mean, these elements are fine but they shouldn't represent the challenge factor of our game.

 

What should challenge be? It should be occasional parkour through levels, it should be fast-moving, potent bosses who have mechanics and can interact with a custom battlefield. It should be enemies which resist our onslaught and challenge us by removing the agency of our powers, guns, and movement. We should have the option to use powers but the challenge of managing them. We should have occasional yet optional exercises of teamwork, which should always be optional since we should aim to support solo players too.

 

Challenge should not be: walls of RNG, incredibly hard learning with zero help, impossible expectations powercreep has created that dooms everyone and anyone who has and will one day fall short of a core exclusive.

 

What is press 4 to win? A symptom of issues like unlimited farming, hard RNG, limited edition weapon powercreep with no decent comparables, trivially easy "end game", a kit of abilities where one ability outshines the rest by a massive margin, and there's no reason to use said abilities and not abuse our best ability. However, Press 4 to win is still its own issue because of the way it diminishes our game to nearly nothing.

 

What should Warframe strive to be? Fun, not a grind or a job. Balanced to make all options viable. Challenging near the end of the game (we need better endgame), and easy to learn as a player as you go on through the cycle of gameplay. As of currently, Warframe is heavily unbalanced so only a few options are viable. It's hard for new players to learn and hard for old players to feel motivated. New players are shut out of the system by missing items with no similar comparable content, and old players get paranoid over it to the point where they're farming their girlfriend's account just to keep her in the cycle or quit the game alongside them. The game needs a breathe of fresh balance, and quelling "Press 4 to win" is the solution alongside fixing the RNG and powercreep cycles.

 

We players here on the forums try endlessly to fix this game, as we imagine developers care enough to make the game in a labor of love for us. It's just very hard to stay in the cycle in the face of long-stagnant subjects such as this. I genuinely hope the developers take notice and help us out as we try to help them. Hopefully we can find a balance where everyone's okay with not steamrolling the game and feel comfortable within it.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MechaKnight

[akira_him]

-snip-

best post in this thread

Edited January 7, 2015 by akira_him

[AlphaHorseman]

-snip-

Haha, well we've got a budding game developer over here.

 

While I still hold my stance that we shouldn't hurt how some people play, as in if they wanna use a certain power and that's why they spent days and resources building for it, we should let them. Some people see it as P42W, some as a viable game play style. One of the reasons, as you've stated, is the grind, and/or they enjoy that power or that play style. Limitations to powers exist, but players minimize those limitations through modding because they want the fastest way to get through the grind. I'm not saying limit player choice, rather, giving a hard look at why they do these things (i.e. grind) is a big way to see a better path forward.

 

I've said my piece on powers, buff/rework the rest within kits to make them appealing options and synergize throughout, but your analysis on how the Grind is going is pretty well received on my end.

 

Quick Question: Anyone know what the game's slogan is now? I've seen some threads saying DE changed it from "Ninja's Play Free" to "Suit to Kill". Not on topic, but it would be nice to clear up. Also would help with the clarity of why they advertise how they advertise when it comes to WarFrame.

Edited January 7, 2015 by AlphaHorseman