Press 4 To Win

[Nighttide77]

Why spam # in gameplay?

...

We understand the case, but why do we do it? It's happening because between locking enemies down to stay in one location and not harm us, make enemies powerless, or outright kill them, if we can do this using only one ability and overcharge to be overpowered, we sure as hek are going to do it.

 

This, I think, is more of an opinion and perspective.  Yes, each warframe seems to have a power that is usually the most powerful ability with highest damage or CC to largest number of enemies.  However, am I going to Rhino Stomp when I see only a few enemies in front of me?  Newp, I'm going to either just shoot them, or charge them, knock them down, and then shoot them if that wasn't enough.  Am I going to Blade Storm just two guys that Shuriken would do the job?  Newp.  Am I going to Blade Storm a Bombard as they fire a rocket in my direction?  Nah, not when I can teleport and do a melee finisher.  Ice wave or Avalanche?  Ice wave damages and procs status in a forward wave, Avalanche only deals damage in a 15m base radius.

 

To me, the punishment for spamming ults is how dry the game gets for the player who uses stale tactics.  The lack of inventiveness of the player to make use of their abilities to the fullest greatly inhibits how incredibly awesome a player should feel when they make the best use of their powers.  I can understand how some individuals would want the game to take the reigns on difficulty and challenge, but at the moment, it seems it is more up to the player to challenge themselves to get better at playing the game.  Some may see this as a good thing, others as a bad thing.

 

If the warframe powers are nerfed or enemies are too tough, it'll basically make the players feel that they are on more equal levels as their common cannon fodder enemies.  In other words, the warframes won't be like legends amongst cannon fodder soldiers.  Regardless of difficulty, the goal the developers had of making the players feel like legends would be nulled out.  How is the 'feel' of playing the role of a legendary warrior that can deflect bullets with Venka claws supposed to coincide with not being able to sweep away cannon fodder by various means?

 

Post-analysis note: Did you notice I didn't say anything about Grineer Drahk Masters? Probably not, and neither did I until a bit later. These enemies are designed to steal our guns from us, and the community has been completely silent about them. It seems that gunplay is heavily depreciated in this game, because nobody cares about losing their gun when they barely used their guns at all. That's another point we'll reach later.

 

The community might've been silent, but I have heard it in TeamSpeak from my clan.  It's apparently not bad enough to make them rage on the forum though.  Gunplay is not depreciated.  When a Drahk gets my gun, it's because I was being careless.  In the moment I'm careless, I just run up to them and spank them with my melee and get my guns back.  They're not game changers, nor make you totally vulnerable to ganking that does cause people to rage (such as Toxic Ancients using their grappling hooks).  They do employ a unique and interesting mechanic, though.

 

It should be enemies which resist our onslaught and challenge us by removing the agency of our powers, guns, and movement. We should have the option to use powers but the challenge of managing them. We should have occasional yet optional exercises of teamwork, which should always be optional since we should aim to support solo players too.

 

Have you forgotten that there are power draining eximus from all factions?  Ancient Disruptors, grineer trap doors that sap all energy, those purple haze Corpus?  Heavy enemies that take more than one shot to put down?  Scorpions and Ancients that knockdown and drag?  Shield Grineer that will knock you down and shoot you while you're starting to get back up?  The fact that if you get too close to any heavy grineer, they will do their own AOE knockdown and then shoot you while you try to get back up?  How much damage a Corpus Tech deals with their Supra if you're not quick about their attack?

 

Also, that by teaming with other players, you can now use augments like Fireball Frenzy to make an ally deal 100% extra fire damage on top of any damage they deal, including from powers?  I'm not exactly happy about how much damage that potentially is, but still.

 

There are enemies amongst the hordes that players pick out and put priority to destroying.  It's just that each one has some simple manner of dispatching them.  Almost all of them are totally influenced by CC and are just bullet sponges with no immunities.  Making enemies tougher just makes them bigger bullet sponges and which doesn't make them more challenging.

 

I'm really wondering, man...did you make that huge post because you wanted to organize and condense a lot of your previous posts?  Maybe for future reference?  Cuz...we discussed a lot of those points already and you didn't really bring up anything that brings more to light on your opinions, experiences, and what you've witnessed others express.

 

One other thing is that a lot of what you're describing that you'd like to see in Warframe is what I found in Firefall: limited ultimates, more common enemies as tough as the player but are still bullet sponges (and makes it very easy to get overwhelmed if solo), and cool downs so you can't spam any power (though there's no power pool, so that is one thing).  I also don't play Firefall anymore, partially for those reasons.  There's nothing to get better at in Firefall, except the RNG grind for new/better gear.  At least in Warframe, I'm able to further refine my style by have the freedom to use different combos of weapons and frames, as well as different move sets and mods.  If I'm going to play Warframe to grind a solo 40min T4S, then of course I'm going to use a particular build, but I also risk burnout and boredom.  If I want, I have the freedom to challenge myself and do even better than a spammy build, and that is a self improvement that cannot be gained through challenges built into games.

[geninrising]

Ok folks I have seen all manner of ideas and all manner of thoughts, but here is one that I have been trying to formulate that clearly points out the fallacy of supporting P42W.

 

Let's say DE releases an all powerful Nuclear rocket launcher with nearly infinite ammo that guarantees you annihilate all targets within 25 meters or up to 70 meters with a single shot fired.

 

Players purchase said rocket and commence to clearing whole maps before the average user can even get into range due to the fact that the Launcher has greater range than your ultimates.

 

You no longer get to even USE those uber powerful ultimates and are simply reduced to following along towards extraction.

 

Should all the ult spammers, rifle users, bowmen, Snipers, shotgun users, and even melees hold their tongues and just reap the rewards?

 

Or do they demand CHANGE for the benefit of the game. To bring fun back to what we are actually doing.

 

Make no mistakes about this subject folks, Warframe power #4 IS that Nuclear Missile Launcher slowly killing our population due to the sheer boredom of following behind the one using it, being able to do nothing at all to relieve said boredom.

 

I am not saying grind is not a cause of said boredom either because it royally sucks, but when players just cause others more boredom with the ability to remove their ability to even PLAY the game something drastic must be done.

[MotherofHermes]

Ok folks I have seen all manner of ideas and all manner of thoughts, but here is one that I have been trying to formulate that clearly points out the fallacy of supporting P42W.

 

Let's say DE releases an all powerful Nuclear rocket launcher with nearly infinite ammo that guarantees you annihilate all targets within 25 meters or up to 70 meters with a single shot fired.

 

Players purchase said rocket and commence to clearing whole maps before the average user can even get into range due to the fact that the Launcher has greater range than your ultimates.

 

You no longer get to even USE those uber powerful ultimates and are simply reduced to following along towards extraction.

 

Should all the ult spammers, rifle users, bowmen, Snipers, shotgun users, and even melees hold their tongues and just reap the rewards?

 

Or do they demand CHANGE for the benefit of the game. To bring fun back to what we are actually doing.

 

Make no mistakes about this subject folks, Warframe power #4 IS that Nuclear Missile Launcher slowly killing our population due to the sheer boredom of following behind the one using it, being able to do nothing at all to relieve said boredom.

 

I am not saying grind is not a cause of said boredom either because it royally sucks, but when players just cause others more boredom with the ability to remove their ability to even PLAY the game something drastic must be done.

I have to agree here. For awhile i stopped playing warframe back before the 4 nerf to Nova. I had friends who played the frame and spent most of the level simply running. I didn't even get to fire my gun or hit an enemy with my abilities because nova and her 4 of doom was too powerful/fast. Runframe is not something I want to play. 

[AlphaHorseman]

Ok folks I have seen all manner of ideas and all manner of thoughts, but here is one that I have been trying to formulate that clearly points out the fallacy of supporting P42W.

 

Let's say DE releases an all powerful Nuclear rocket launcher with nearly infinite ammo that guarantees you annihilate all targets within 25 meters or up to 70 meters with a single shot fired.

 

Players purchase said rocket and commence to clearing whole maps before the average user can even get into range due to the fact that the Launcher has greater range than your ultimates.

 

You no longer get to even USE those uber powerful ultimates and are simply reduced to following along towards extraction.

 

Should all the ult spammers, rifle users, bowmen, Snipers, shotgun users, and even melees hold their tongues and just reap the rewards?

 

Or do they demand CHANGE for the benefit of the game. To bring fun back to what we are actually doing.

 

Make no mistakes about this subject folks, Warframe power #4 IS that Nuclear Missile Launcher slowly killing our population due to the sheer boredom of following behind the one using it, being able to do nothing at all to relieve said boredom.

 

I am not saying grind is not a cause of said boredom either because it royally sucks, but when players just cause others more boredom with the ability to remove their ability to even PLAY the game something drastic must be done.

Just...read my post in the other discussion to see why I don't think this is the issue.

 

Our population isn't dying because of this my friend, trust me, there's a whole lot more hindering the games growth, and a whole lot more helping it along.

 

Ugh, I hate for this to be my response...but sometimes that's what you get with PUGs. If you don't want that, either play with a team you know, or request that players don't play a way you don't like when they join your squad. That way, poof, you don't have the problem anymore. If they don't like what you tell them, then just tell them to leave. Or just play solo, that works too.

[geninrising]

Just...read my post in the other discussion to see why I don't think this is the issue.

 

Our population isn't dying because of this my friend, trust me, there's a whole lot more hindering the games growth, and a whole lot more helping it along.

 

Ugh, I hate for this to be my response...but sometimes that's what you get with PUGs. If you don't want that, either play with a team you know, or request that players don't play a way you don't like when they join your squad. That way, poof, you don't have the problem anymore. If they don't like what you tell them, then just tell them to leave. Or just play solo, that works too.

The point being my friend that no other player should be able to decide whether you can even enjoy the game or not. That is clear evidence that the mechanic is broken and every argument for it is faulty.

[MechaKnight]

Ugh, I hate for this to be my response...but sometimes that's what you get with PUGs. If you don't want that, either play with a team you know, or request that players don't play a way you don't like when they join your squad. That way, poof, you don't have the problem anymore. If they don't like what you tell them, then just tell them to leave. Or just play solo, that works too.

 

Pick-up groups is like, the core of Warframe. So much has been said within this thread to not make it an MMO clone and not force teamwork. Yet you recommend not to play in public groups, tell random strangers pet peeves so they instantly dislike the joining individual who's complaining, and playing solo in Warframe is valid, but singleplayer games already dominate most of the game retails market so it removes Warframe's value of being a multiplayer game. I've been brought into this game by 11 friends who have all quit. I'm in a major alliance with many clans and I see clans get removed for inactivity, warlords of clans quit Warframe and try to persuade me to join them in the other game, I've seen 3 dating couples struggle with this game's powercreep until they quit, and I've seen people quit just because the game's current direction is so uninspired they get bored and move on.

 

Yes, power spam is a reason why people quit, but I think the main reason is how bad the grind is becoming, how relentless the events and their powercreep is, and how uninspired the gameplay feels quite often. I'm past a thousand hours spent in-game, and that's just my in-mission time--time the game's been left on is much longer. I've seen the game evolve from more humble origins, and this power spam has gone too far. However, none of my solutions take away any of the potency of the ability, they simply depend on a couple of fair concepts: 1) you should use #1, #2, and #3 powers more often as dictated by their cost, and 2) if you spam your #4 three times in a row, you're just power farming.

 

The solution is simple: help tone down the grind alongside power spam reduction.

 

 

This, I think, is more of an opinion and perspective.  Yes, each warframe seems to have a power that is usually the most powerful ability with highest damage or CC to largest number of enemies.  However, am I going to Rhino Stomp when I see only a few enemies in front of me?  Newp, I'm going to either just shoot them, or charge them, knock them down, and then shoot them if that wasn't enough.  Am I going to Blade Storm just two guys that Shuriken would do the job?  Newp.  Am I going to Blade Storm a Bombard as they fire a rocket in my direction?  Nah, not when I can teleport and do a melee finisher.  Ice wave or Avalanche?  Ice wave damages and procs status in a forward wave, Avalanche only deals damage in a 15m base radius.

 

Rhino's Stomp is actually balanced enough considering there is a cooldown timer while enemies are floating in the air. Even then, consider that it's an extremely weird scenario to stop 3 times within 10 seconds. Many players do this in low level content with Rhino, at which point that's just nothing but pressing 4. We have three power strength mods that can grant us 284% damage in abilities, so Rhino can kill enemies with stomp instantly for a pretty long time in the game if you want. Some people actually do press 4 just to kill 1 single enemy in front of them. Also, since Blade Storm hits 15 times over regardless of how many enemies are in the vicinity, it makes a lot of sense to use Blade Storm on only 1 enemy as time goes on in infinite content.

 

 

Ash is weak? Okay. Let's buff him!

 

 

because killing a level 132 Eximus with one Blade Storm is not strong enough guys!

 

 

 

 

See that? You can kill a level 132 eximus heavy gunner in the void with only 1 cast of Blade Storm. My proposed changes to limit abilities doesn't affect any of this capacity at all in any way, not range or strength or duration or cost. We're just operating under the simple principle that you'll never spam an ultimate 3 times over.

 

Also for your example with Avalanche, it actually used to inflict cold status, and I think it should. Why this feature was removed I don't know. A limiting system would actually improve some ultimates by giving developers a bit less worry on giving an ability features they think are overpowered. Nobody who isn't trying to trivialize the system would spam an ultimate more than twice. My plan to lower attributes on the third cast in sequence would allow you to finish the job just fine with that extra cast, but you're definitely not going to want to spam in 10 times over like most players in this game tend to spam.

 

 

Have you forgotten that there are power draining eximus from all factions?  Ancient Disruptors, grineer trap doors that sap all energy, those purple haze Corpus?  Heavy enemies that take more than one shot to put down?  Scorpions and Ancients that knockdown and drag?  Shield Grineer that will knock you down and shoot you while you're starting to get back up?  The fact that if you get too close to any heavy grineer, they will do their own AOE knockdown and then shoot you while you try to get back up?  How much damage a Corpus Tech deals with their Supra if you're not quick about their attack?

 

Also, that by teaming with other players, you can now use augments like Fireball Frenzy to make an ally deal 100% extra fire damage on top of any damage they deal, including from powers?  I'm not exactly happy about how much damage that potentially is, but still.

 

There are enemies amongst the hordes that players pick out and put priority to destroying.  It's just that each one has some simple manner of dispatching them.  Almost all of them are totally influenced by CC and are just bullet sponges with no immunities.  Making enemies tougher just makes them bigger bullet sponges and which doesn't make them more challenging.

 

The developers are using powerful means to combat our powerful spam. Yes, getting all your energy removed from an obstacle feels bad, but energy is usually everywhere, we can hold 200 energy plates per slot in our gear and have no cooldowns on them, and we're still allowed to spam abilities which is the most confusing thing to any logical person. The developers are trying to work around the issue of the fact that they've given us way too much power and deeply regret it. If a limiting system is introduced, cruel mechanics like this can be removed, but we still have a lot of energy and energy plates so it's not even a big deal.

 

Yes, Fireball Frenzy. It would be a good augment--would, not is--but considering this augment runs on duration and everyone's trying their best to pile on strength and efficiency on everything at the cost of duration, it's not a great augment surprisingly. At least Ember has an excuse to mod for duration since players want to use World on Fire and it uses duration. Meanwhile teamwork and coordination is in short supply, so despite the amazing potential the damage augments have, I've never seen more than 1 person try to use one on me a month after syndicate points were reworked since they can't use it to selfishly buff themselves. Nobody farming Viver cared about the augment when they got it early, and a month after the mainstream public was finally able to afford these teamwork synergy augments, they were never seen in public again.

 

Nowhere in my post did I advocate for bullet sponge enemies. That's actually the trend of development now, increased levels mildly influence which enemies spawn, but for the most part it just piles on health, shields, and armor onto every living thing that appears. As of now where the current direction of Warframe is still teetering on boredom by still allowing powers to go absolutely limitless, these bullet sponges, energy leeches, and ability disablers are going to start multiplying and proliferating in the game as the developers fear that it's the only way to prevent players from mercilessly obliterating the game with power spam.

 

 

I'm really wondering, man...did you make that huge post because you wanted to organize and condense a lot of your previous posts?  Maybe for future reference?  Cuz...we discussed a lot of those points already and you didn't really bring up anything that brings more to light on your opinions, experiences, and what you've witnessed others express.

 

One other thing is that a lot of what you're describing that you'd like to see in Warframe is what I found in Firefall: limited ultimates, more common enemies as tough as the player but are still bullet sponges (and makes it very easy to get overwhelmed if solo), and cool downs so you can't spam any power (though there's no power pool, so that is one thing).  I also don't play Firefall anymore, partially for those reasons.  There's nothing to get better at in Firefall, except the RNG grind for new/better gear.

 

I poured that post out of my soul in one sitting without looking at any posts. As a player who's spent over a thousand hours in this game with every warframe fully forma'ed for endgame and my favorite warframe clocked at 337 hours within missions, I've seen players vanish over time. It started with the gentle players who couldn't handle the stress, then the smart players who realized the grass was greener elsewhere, then the strong players who eventually lost their cool and decided to abandon this game. I was brought into this game by 11 friends from a previous game (I was their leader once), and they've all forsaken this game now. I've joined one of the stronger alliances, and have seen people jump ship to other games and try to drag me with them. I've seen over three dozen players leave just during November and December, and I've been a friendly enough person to have a full friends list. It's probably over a hundred gone for at least a hundred days each if I check.

 

Limiting abilities based on their strength isn't a bad thing, since the limits I proposed are quite acceptable in normal gameplay. These limits won't appear to affect anything until you're nearly an hour into T4 survival, and that's only if it's a single-ability build. This has nothing to do with how strong enemies are, this doesn't affect how the game scales enemy stats upwards with levels in infinite content. As for Firefall, understand that's a persistent world MMORPG and that's a completely different deal. In that genre, the level of your character actually matters to access much gated content, there's actually an endgame that's expected of high level players to farm continuously as they ignore earlier regions, and as I've said many times already, there are many possible limiting systems that are not solid cooldown timers that interrupt between every single cast of each ability. You're probably only referring to cooldowns localized on one ability at a time, but I've seen many games with linked cooldowns where using one ability puts a few more on cooldown, yet you didn't even use any of those abilities. So firstly, cooldowns on one ability isn't so scary in comparison, but the systems I proposed won't give you a cooldown from casting abilities normally, or focusing on using your early abilities a ton with infinite energy. They only serve to limit our most devastating ability, which is usually so effective we don't usually cast it more than once or twice in a row. Three times is incredibly excessive for ultimate abilities that kill whole rooms.

 

 

At least in Warframe, I'm able to further refine my style by have the freedom to use different combos of weapons and frames, as well as different move sets and mods.  If I'm going to play Warframe to grind a solo 40min T4S, then of course I'm going to use a particular build, but I also risk burnout and boredom.  If I want, I have the freedom to challenge myself and do even better than a spammy build, and that is a self improvement that cannot be gained through challenges built into games.

The game scales to how many players are in it per mission. Recently the developers fixed life support spawn to vary based on player count so it's very feasible to play this solo. I myself duo survivals with a friend just for fun, and I also take on grineer survival on Ceres solo because I can. However, power spam is killing the game for both solo players and people who play in pick-up groups and clans/alliances.

 

As for challenging yourself to play against radial spam, it's as easy as playing Valkyr and hopping into a pickup group. You'll be struggling to compete for damage and kills when you have to either shoot enemies or engage them in melee. Meanwhile, most favorites spam radials so you probably won't touch much in a team.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MechaKnight

[geninrising]

MechaKnight, sometimes I feel as though we should just create a community that truly dislikes p42w so that we can segregate ourselves off from the majority of the WF community.

 

I feel sometimes as though it is a sincere waste of time trying to help, even though I thoroughly enjoy the IDEA of the game if not so  much it's current iteration.

 

Then I see people make huge posts supporting why p42w is a valid playstyle that should be allowed and I realize THAT mentality is the exact reason why I continue to fight against it. 

 

There is a certain amount of entitled selfishness that is clearly present in every single persons post that defends p42w and it reminds me exactly why I do not go out in public often.

 

That is the exact behavior and personality trait I most despise in humanity and it was the cause of most of the suffering and inhumanity that has been seen across this wide world. I will make you do it my way because it's what I want and you will like it or go away. SMH

[AlphaHorseman]

MechaKnight, sometimes I feel as though we should just create a community that truly dislikes p42w so that we can segregate ourselves off from the majority of the WF community.

 

I feel sometimes as though it is a sincere waste of time trying to help, even though I thoroughly enjoy the IDEA of the game if not so  much it's current iteration.

 

Then I see people make huge posts supporting why p42w is a valid playstyle that should be allowed and I realize THAT mentality is the exact reason why I continue to fight against it. 

 

There is a certain amount of entitled selfishness that is clearly present in every single persons post that defends p42w and it reminds me exactly why I do not go out in public often.

 

That is the exact behavior and personality trait I most despise in humanity and it was the cause of most of the suffering and inhumanity that has been seen across this wide world. I will make you do it my way because it's what I want and you will like it or go away. SMH

 

Look dude, I really was trying to make this a discussion, but that post above really just kinda makes me feel like you really do believe that powers are the bane of WarFrame. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

 

The point being my friend that no other player should be able to decide whether you can even enjoy the game or not. That is clear evidence that the mechanic is broken and every argument for it is faulty.

 

I'm just going to copy what I said in the other thread:

 

Remember that a gunner could just as well take the enjoyment out of a caster. They could run ahead and just set the room alight with gunfire and clear it out. Or just station themselves in a hallway and kill anything that comes into their view, thoroughly negating a casters ability to be, well...a caster.

 

I'm not saying that either side is right, or either side is wrong. The tools we have at hand are not bad tools, we are allowed to use them as we see fit. Remember though, that what is right and wrong is dependent on a person and their point of view. 

 

Some people claim that multi-shot itself is a loop hole, since you could practically double your damage output with but one mod. Or even triple it if you look at secondaries and their multishot capabilities. But I say they're good mods, because they help players max out their DPS if they want to, for dealing with higher end content.

 

That's the thing, either way has its benefits and draw backs, we can't point the finger at the other and say that they're the ones that are wrong and should be nerfed or hindered because they play a way that isn't enjoyable for me. Both systems work in tandem, one may be more appealing to some, and the other to others, it all depends on the players themselves. We have shooter elements at WarFrames core, yes, this wouldn't be WarFrame without it, but we also have abilities there as well, and our abilities is also what helps to make WarFrame WarFrame. We shouldn't hurt one to make the other more appealing.

 

I've always loved how I can take out my Paris Prime and nail whole enemies to the wall with a single strum of my bow. Or I can cast my Avalanche and eliminate foes all around me before feeling super ninja with my Despair and flinging the rest around the room with ninja-star-daggers. I personally hate that Avalanche doesn't have CC/utility, but that's something I've voiced in other threads.

 

In essence, either system is appealing for different people, we just run into different people in different matches who play differently than we do. We shouldn't hurt them for it or tell them to not play their way. People play caster, that's how they play. People play gun ho, that's how they play. But we shouldn't whack the casters because the gunners feel like they should be whacked, nor should the casters beat down on the gunners. But realize that both options are there, and you can play however you want to play, but both can be there for you to use.

 

Gun play is great, trust me, it is. It isn't overshadowed by powers, as some guns can pump out way more damage than any power in this game ever could. Whoever wants to try and use Nova against me, realize that you need a gun to set her powers off or even make them powerful. I find myself dishing out more damage with my Paris Prime than my powers, and even when I have a frame with good CC, the guns get the killing job done where my powers cannot. I have to reiterate that both of these systems work best when they're in tandem, but not everyone goes for both together, some go for one or the other.

 

I've known people who sacrificed whole mod slots on WarFrames to make themselves tanks before the Abilities change, and still do, and focused on gun play. I also know people who went the other way to find their inner Wizard and blast apart enemies with their powers. Either way, each path is viable, and it is all dependent on player choice. You wanna go full tanky frame and just use guns? Go for it. Sadly, not everyone in the game that you encounter will do so, and you will run into casters that went the other way. But the beauty of it is, you can still be the caster or the gunner, no matter what.

 

Sure the caster you run into doesn't play how you like to play, but they shouldn't be hurt for it. They went full caster like how they wanted to, they may not like your gunner style game strategy, but they shouldn't tell you that your guns need to be nerfed and you need to focus more on your powers. Either side loses when one side loses out.

 

So, to say again, no, I am against nerfing powers like this for the sake of trying to make gun play more appealing, because to some it already is, to others it is not, and they like powers. I am also against guns getting nerfed because someone thinks "its so op plz DE makez itz stopz because me powers cant not do such damage too much wowe with gunz". Ugh I hate threads like that.

 

The beauty of it all is that you can go either way or many different ways, or mix the ways with this system. Sure the game overall needs tune ups and upgrades, but hurting systems like these isn't going to help. You'll run into casters that don't play how you play, and you'll run into gunners that do play how you play, or you'll run into players that mix things up, but that's just how things are. We all play differently. But the beauty is that we have many paths to choose from, to take, or to tread many simultaneously if we wish. 

[AlphaHorseman]

Pick-up groups is like, the core of Warframe. So much has been said within this thread to not make it an MMO clone and not force teamwork. Yet you recommend not to play in public groups, tell random strangers pet peeves so they instantly dislike the joining individual who's complaining, and playing solo in Warframe is valid, but singleplayer games already dominate most of the game retails market so it removes Warframe's value of being a multiplayer game. I've been brought into this game by 11 friends who have all quit. I'm in a major alliance with many clans and I see clans get removed for inactivity, warlords of clans quit Warframe and try to persuade me to join them in the other game, I've seen 3 dating couples struggle with this game's powercreep until they quit, and I've seen people quit just because the game's current direction is so uninspired they get bored and move on.

 

Yes, power spam is a reason why people quit, but I think the main reason is how bad the grind is becoming, how relentless the events and their powercreep is, and how uninspired the gameplay feels quite often. I'm past a thousand hours spent in-game, and that's just my in-mission time--time the game's been left on is much longer. I've seen the game evolve from more humble origins, and this power spam has gone too far. However, none of my solutions take away any of the potency of the ability, they simply depend on a couple of fair concepts: 1) you should use #1, #2, and #3 powers more often as dictated by their cost, and 2) if you spam your #4 three times in a row, you're just power farming.

 

The solution is simple: help tone down the grind alongside power spam reduction.

 

 

 

Rhino's Stomp is actually balanced enough considering there is a cooldown timer while enemies are floating in the air. Even then, consider that it's an extremely weird scenario to stop 3 times within 10 seconds. Many players do this in low level content with Rhino, at which point that's just nothing but pressing 4. We have three power strength mods that can grant us 284% damage in abilities, so Rhino can kill enemies with stomp instantly for a pretty long time in the game if you want. Some people actually do press 4 just to kill 1 single enemy in front of them. Also, since Blade Storm hits 15 times over regardless of how many enemies are in the vicinity, it makes a lot of sense to use Blade Storm on only 1 enemy as time goes on in infinite content.

 

 

 

See that? You can kill a level 132 eximus heavy gunner in the void with only 1 cast of Blade Storm. My proposed changes to limit abilities doesn't affect any of this capacity at all in any way, not range or strength or duration or cost. We're just operating under the simple principle that you'll never spam an ultimate 3 times over.

Oh no, I never said you couldn't play in public groups. I'm saying that there are ways to avoid dealing with people who's play style you don't like. If you're in a PUG, just request for players not to do whatever it is you don't like. If they don't like your request, you or they could leave. Simple as that.

 

Toning down the grind doesn't mean we need to penalize players for their play style. People built those frames to be powerful, just like how people built their weapons to be powerful. If our weapons could overheat, people who favour gun play would be up in arms about it. Same thing with people who use their powers. We shouldn't be hurting them simply because they've built their frames how they want to play. It's just as how people build their guns just as they want to play.

 

Everyone has their reasons for quitting, I've been here nearly two years, I've seen people come and go. Same as you. Though none of them ever told me it was because they could cast their powers. Majority was because of the grind. Your solution does actually distort the potency or usefulness of our powers, as it limits how much we can use them. This defeats the whole purpose of modifications and the entire customization system, as it detracts from your ability to actually customize. This shouldn't be how it works. If you want the other 3 powers to be viable, then they should be viable outright, not made outright by the exhaustion of your ultimate.

 

And for that Blade Storm, did he tell you what the teams auras were? Because 4 corrosive projections and that armor counts for nothing. Compound that with Ash's bleed proc, and enemies are just bullet sponges, but bullet sponges without damage mitigation. Not to mention we have no idea if the gunner was attacked before the Ultimate by others. But in that high level content, you really think it's a surprise that people went for their most powerful ability? Who the Hek goes that far and expects to use lackluster powers to get the job done? Of course not! No one said anything about buffing Blade Storm, not that I remember from this thread. Even then, Blade Storm wouldn't be the best option, they should've focus fired with guns, that would've been faster.

[Nighttide77]

The point being my friend that no other player should be able to decide whether you can even enjoy the game or not. That is clear evidence that the mechanic is broken and every argument for it is faulty.

 

Eh, other players already can decide whether I can enjoy the game...all they have to do is get downed every time they face an enemy, hog a hacking terminal, spam speed nova #4 to make enemies frustrating to deal with, switch teleport when they're about to get hit, or do everything but try to accomplish the objective.  There was one pug that brought a low-level frame with him in a high level invasion mission and when I asked why in the world he would do that, he replied that it was because I'm so high level and able to carry him.  *shivers in agitation* that bothered me so much

 

However, when I have teamed with a guy using a Blade Storm build for defense, or an Avalanche build for speed nukes, I never lost fun from what I was doing.  The only time I got frustrated with people spamming one power was when someone was a Nyx sitting on top of the Void defense point with their max range #4.  Sure, we were mostly safe, but it was just a bad idea to stick around a mission to the point your enemies one-shot you and since you're all inside the bubble, one grenade was all it takes to finish everyone in your team but the Nyx. Couldn't even get outside the bubble to gather the drops.

[geninrising]

Look dude, I really was trying to make this a discussion, but that post above really just kinda makes me feel like you really do believe that powers are the bane of WarFrame. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

 

Sorry man that frustration was not aimed at you precisely. It's just that there have been a number of threads recently on topics such as P42W, the Nullifiers, AW, Mutalist Tar Moas, various glitches regarding various things, and various rework threads for tons of frames that have been centered around ability spam and quite frankly I do feel that currently ability spam is the largest issue facing WF to date.

 

Currently I have spoken to no less than 10 clan members last night that are contemplating quitting teh game due to having literally no ability to play because they play in pugs when a lot of us are not around to group with. Without fail during these pug sessions they are subjected to the P42W spam and literally have no choice but to chase along behind the person if they want to clear missions as they are not capable of clearing them alone currently.

 

Unfortunately it is a really sore subject to me this month because instead of making powers into a powerful yet limited force that is still great to use, DE has ignored the issue entirely after the Vivergate incident and since Viver I have had at least 15 clan members quit the game for the singular fact that they in no way shape form or fashion actually have ANY fun when spammers are present in a pug, and considering that was the majority of their gameplay it became an act of futility for them to even play any more. 

 

They loved the clan and had a great time playing with us no matter what we were doing, but every single pug in the last 3 months simply broke their spirit. That's precisely why I have taken to the forums on the behalf of players like my lost clan members and future players like them.

 

I refuse to allow this to continue to happen to the game without a damn cold bitter fight.

Edited January 7, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

Eh, other players already can decide whether I can enjoy the game...all they have to do is get downed every time they face an enemy, hog a hacking terminal, spam speed nova #4 to make enemies frustrating to deal with, switch teleport when they're about to get hit, or do everything but try to accomplish the objective.  There was one pug that brought a low-level frame with him in a high level invasion mission and when I asked why in the world he would do that, he replied that it was because I'm so high level and able to carry him.  *shivers in agitation* that bothered me so much

 

However, when I have teamed with a guy using a Blade Storm build for defense, or an Avalanche build for speed nukes, I never lost fun from what I was doing.  The only time I got frustrated with people spamming one power was when someone was a Nyx sitting on top of the Void defense point with their max range #4.  Sure, we were mostly safe, but it was just a bad idea to stick around a mission to the point your enemies one-shot you and since you're all inside the bubble, one grenade was all it takes to finish everyone in your team but the Nyx. Couldn't even get outside the bubble to gather the drops.

Yeah see though the things with those behaviors is that you can simply walk away and handle business informing them that they will not be carried at all and they will simply remain dead unless they waste all their revives on a bad judgement call.

 

As far as people that utilize the p42w builds, with those you literally have no choice but to follow around watching things get blown apart and having little to nothing at all you can do . There is something that is just not right about one player having the ability to prevent you from actually doing anything throughout a whole mission.

 

Granted from your perspective in Tower content it is not that prevalent but what I am trying to get through to people is that it should never be in ANYONE'S power to prevent you from playing how you want to play. The argument well, you should just leave or play solo or only do premades is just intrinsically wrong in a game where primarily you play with RANDOM people.

 

You should not tell half your populace sure you can go to that mission, but whether or not you get to actually DO anything is at the whim of the person you play with. That's just sheer ignorance and thus far has produced a majority of the population in this game that has no care whatsoever for how their style of setup affects a large portion of the games populace.

 

Hence why you see threads like this pop up. People finally cannot stand it any more and they hit the forums HOPING against hope that they will not be S#&$ on when they get here but knowing they probably will because no one wants to lose their toys.

[Nighttide77]

That is the exact behavior and personality trait I most despise in humanity and it was the cause of most of the suffering and inhumanity that has been seen across this wide world. I will make you do it my way because it's what I want and you will like it or go away. SMH

 

Don't you think that is exactly what you're doing to some of us?  We're not telling you you have to play the P42W style, we're saying you have the freedom to do so.  However, you're telling us that you want to take that freedom of choice away.  If you don't like people to use P42W (even though I don't always do so because it does get dry), why not make it a thing to ask on the recruiting chat for people of that mindset?  Something like "LF2M T4S anti-P42W"

 

If people quit the game because of pugs, then I don't know if I can feel bad for them.  Pugs always have that chance of being terrible, and P42W is a small issue compared to what else the can do to grief people...like leave their teammates to die when they could easily revive them...especially in a game where anyone can revive anyone else.  I quit playing TF2 and L4D for the reason that pugs were not working together or that my opponents were actually not enough of a challenge.  I don't expect there to be any changes to those games to accommodate me, either, because it's my own fault I didn't try to find a clan or group that made playing fun and more organized.

 

---

 

So...I was giving it some thought...I tried the idea of just imagining what it would be like to lose the P42W nuke abilities...  What if...just imagining this...what if players did not have any abilities that allowed them to nuke?  Or that the nuke abilities were just not viable, and even mass CC lasted even less time (like Nyx's Chaos only had 10 seconds with and spamming the ability made it last 2 seconds less each consecutive time)?  What if the game started that way so that those of us whom got a taste of what it's like to clear a 45m radius of cannon fodder never knew what that was like?

 

Gotta remember, the ideas proposed were not just for damage, but for any power that allowed a person to simply win no matter what.

 

Shoot...if Ash's Smoke Screen lasted 2 seconds less each consecutive time it was cast...would definitely be a bit more challenging waiting for a cool down to be able to use it to its full extent again...but only as difficult as finding a one-door room and just shooting anything that comes through until I am ready again.

 

If the game was a little more difficult in that way, would that make people want to come back or stay longer?  That's really the focus of the discussion, right?  Whether an increase in difficulty would make players stick around.

 

I don't believe people would.  Anyone, please make a counter argument if you disagree.

 

I don't believe people would come back or stay longer if they didn't have an ability that just made them win for the following reasons:

1) they are still shooting the same enemies, most of which are just bullet sponges

2) the missions still have the same objectives, but instead of spamming powers you just try to shoot/melee the enemy faster than they can overwhelm you

3) the rewards are still the same

4) the RNG wall still exists to keep players from certain rewards

5) there still won't be anything more than there currently is that challenges people to think harder, faster, or be more observant, except to watch for specific enemies that are dangerous

 

I would like to do a social experiment with this if anyone has the resources.  We can all sit here and deliberate over this as much as we want, but we won't know for sure if we don't actually experiment.

 

I would like to see if people who have left the game would come back and play a few missions, but use a self-imposed handicap mod builds that keep from being able to use a power to simply win.  Oh, and run those missions with a predefined group, not a pug group without the handicaps.

 

The experiment would be to see whether such individuals would enjoy the game more if they simply aren't able to spam an "I win" power.  I wager they would not enjoy the game any further because there is nothing more to gain from the game whether it's more difficult.  At the same time, anyone who comes back would potentially still have that mindset of "why am I handicapping myself when I could just build to win?"  I believe anyone that plays any game to figure out how to wreck whole levels the easiest and fastest will never enjoy the journey of playing the game.

 

I think my best example of this is when I used to play Oblivion.  I remember that I could just spam-cast a 100% Chameleon, which allowed me to be entirely invisible and attack enemies without losing invisibility and allowing them to attack me back.  I even regenerated mana back fast enough to not lose my invisibility, except when the timer was up.  Sound familiar to anything in Warframe?

 

At the end, I defeated the bosses, explored all these dungeons, got the treasures, and basically completed the story of the game.  After I got all the rewards from treasures and storyline, I was bored.  I got nothing by further exploring the game because I was basically playing on easy mode and there wasn't any further excitement from finding out what happens in the storyline or getting that special gem from a dungeon.  I haven't played Oblivion ever since, and even though there's the option to go back through the game using an entirely different strategy, why would I?  I already know what happens and what virtual treasure I would gain from different dungeons.

 

So...if I played Oblivion and got bored from just spamming Chameleon, why can I play Warframe and spam Smoke Screen but keep going?

 

It's because this is the only game where I have options and freedom to decide how I play the game.  I mean, what other game allows me to choose a stealth ability set, but then still equip a bazooka or heavy chain gun?  I can choose a heavy frame but still equip daggers, I can choose a stealth frame, but equip that awesome Jat Kittag.  Further, I can choose to jump kick a row of enemies, and the slide attack them while they're getting up.  Sure, Oblivion allowed me to be a heavy armored guy with small weapons, but I couldn't jump kick, parkour or anything with combat finesse.  I still get a kick out of the slide attack for kogake or obex...even though they're not the highest damage weapons, that slide attack is hilarious.  Even the kestrel isn't high damage, but its 100% rag doll proc never gets old.

 

Based on that, even if DE looked at this thread and thought, "yeah, we really should implement a sort of anti-spam system like MechaKnight suggests" and did so, I'm almost certain I would still keep playing Warframe simply for the fact that there's a combat finesse much like some Prince of Persia games.

 

The only reason I suppose I do not agree with those on the anti-P42W boat is because I'm a proponent of the freedom to choose whether that's a strategy you want to employ.  With freedom comes responsibility and the chance others abuse that freedom.  However, just because there are those that abuse that freedom doesn't mean that everyone should bear the consequences.  That would be like saying since there are drunk drivers, everyone should have to install a sobriety test machine in their vehicle that keeps the car from starting if the test fails.  That logic is flawed, especially since there will also be those that still find a way around the system.

 

If someone feels the game is forcing them to spam powers to win, maybe it's not the game, but the attitude of the gamer.

[Nighttide77]

Pick-up groups is like, the core of Warframe.

 

I'm...of the opinion that that is an opinion, heh.

 

 

Yes, power spam is a reason why people quit, but I think the main reason is how bad the grind is becoming, how relentless the events and their powercreep is, and how uninspired the gameplay feels quite often.

 

I totally agree that grind is a huge reason people would stop playing and would not come back.  If you don't enjoy the game play, grind just piles onto the boredom and pointlessness.  No one really wants to waste their time with game play they don't enjoy.

 

I still maintain, though, that P42W is an attitude and choice.  Power grinding is a choice.  If a player's attitude is that they are only willing to use the powers and builds that create "I win" scenarios, all without giving deeper consideration to using tools that make game play fun, then that is exactly what they get.  Whether the game is fun for them is largely in their own hands, even if they choose to team with pugs, because that is a choice, too.  If players don't want to take that responsibility for having fun into their own hands, they'll never be satisfied and continue to migrate from game to game.

[MechaKnight]

Don't you think that is exactly what you're doing to some of us?  We're not telling you you have to play the P42W style, we're saying you have the freedom to do so.  However, you're telling us that you want to take that freedom of choice away.  If you don't like people to use P42W (even though I don't always do so because it does get dry), why not make it a thing to ask on the recruiting chat for people of that mindset?  Something like "LF2M T4S anti-P42W"

 

If people quit the game because of pugs, then I don't know if I can feel bad for them.  Pugs always have that chance of being terrible, and P42W is a small issue compared to what else the can do to grief people...like leave their teammates to die when they could easily revive them...especially in a game where anyone can revive anyone else.  I quit playing TF2 and L4D for the reason that pugs were not working together or that my opponents were actually not enough of a challenge.  I don't expect there to be any changes to those games to accommodate me, either, because it's my own fault I didn't try to find a clan or group that made playing fun and more organized.

 

---

 

So...I was giving it some thought...I tried the idea of just imagining what it would be like to lose the P42W nuke abilities...  What if...just imagining this...what if players did not have any abilities that allowed them to nuke?  Or that the nuke abilities were just not viable, and even mass CC lasted even less time (like Nyx's Chaos only had 10 seconds with and spamming the ability made it last 2 seconds less each consecutive time)?  What if the game started that way so that those of us whom got a taste of what it's like to clear a 45m radius of cannon fodder never knew what that was like?

 

Gotta remember, the ideas proposed were not just for damage, but for any power that allowed a person to simply win no matter what.

 

Shoot...if Ash's Smoke Screen lasted 2 seconds less each consecutive time it was cast...would definitely be a bit more challenging waiting for a cool down to be able to use it to its full extent again...but only as difficult as finding a one-door room and just shooting anything that comes through until I am ready again.

 

If the game was a little more difficult in that way, would that make people want to come back or stay longer?  That's really the focus of the discussion, right?  Whether an increase in difficulty would make players stick around.

 

I don't believe people would.  Anyone, please make a counter argument if you disagree.

 

I don't believe people would come back or stay longer if they didn't have an ability that just made them win for the following reasons:

1) they are still shooting the same enemies, most of which are just bullet sponges

2) the missions still have the same objectives, but instead of spamming powers you just try to shoot/melee the enemy faster than they can overwhelm you

3) the rewards are still the same

4) the RNG wall still exists to keep players from certain rewards

5) there still won't be anything more than there currently is that challenges people to think harder, faster, or be more observant, except to watch for specific enemies that are dangerous

 

I would like to do a social experiment with this if anyone has the resources.  We can all sit here and deliberate over this as much as we want, but we won't know for sure if we don't actually experiment.

 

I would like to see if people who have left the game would come back and play a few missions, but use a self-imposed handicap mod builds that keep from being able to use a power to simply win.  Oh, and run those missions with a predefined group, not a pug group without the handicaps.

 

The experiment would be to see whether such individuals would enjoy the game more if they simply aren't able to spam an "I win" power.  I wager they would not enjoy the game any further because there is nothing more to gain from the game whether it's more difficult.  At the same time, anyone who comes back would potentially still have that mindset of "why am I handicapping myself when I could just build to win?"  I believe anyone that plays any game to figure out how to wreck whole levels the easiest and fastest will never enjoy the journey of playing the game.

 

I think my best example of this is when I used to play Oblivion.  I remember that I could just spam-cast a 100% Chameleon, which allowed me to be entirely invisible and attack enemies without losing invisibility and allowing them to attack me back.  I even regenerated mana back fast enough to not lose my invisibility, except when the timer was up.  Sound familiar to anything in Warframe?

 

At the end, I defeated the bosses, explored all these dungeons, got the treasures, and basically completed the story of the game.  After I got all the rewards from treasures and storyline, I was bored.  I got nothing by further exploring the game because I was basically playing on easy mode and there wasn't any further excitement from finding out what happens in the storyline or getting that special gem from a dungeon.  I haven't played Oblivion ever since, and even though there's the option to go back through the game using an entirely different strategy, why would I?  I already know what happens and what virtual treasure I would gain from different dungeons.

 

So...if I played Oblivion and got bored from just spamming Chameleon, why can I play Warframe and spam Smoke Screen but keep going?

 

It's because this is the only game where I have options and freedom to decide how I play the game.  I mean, what other game allows me to choose a stealth ability set, but then still equip a bazooka or heavy chain gun?  I can choose a heavy frame but still equip daggers, I can choose a stealth frame, but equip that awesome Jat Kittag.  Further, I can choose to jump kick a row of enemies, and the slide attack them while they're getting up.  Sure, Oblivion allowed me to be a heavy armored guy with small weapons, but I couldn't jump kick, parkour or anything with combat finesse.  I still get a kick out of the slide attack for kogake or obex...even though they're not the highest damage weapons, that slide attack is hilarious.  Even the kestrel isn't high damage, but its 100% rag doll proc never gets old.

 

Based on that, even if DE looked at this thread and thought, "yeah, we really should implement a sort of anti-spam system like MechaKnight suggests" and did so, I'm almost certain I would still keep playing Warframe simply for the fact that there's a combat finesse much like some Prince of Persia games.

 

The only reason I suppose I do not agree with those on the anti-P42W boat is because I'm a proponent of the freedom to choose whether that's a strategy you want to employ.  With freedom comes responsibility and the chance others abuse that freedom.  However, just because there are those that abuse that freedom doesn't mean that everyone should bear the consequences.  That would be like saying since there are drunk drivers, everyone should have to install a sobriety test machine in their vehicle that keeps the car from starting if the test fails.  That logic is flawed, especially since there will also be those that still find a way around the system.

 

If someone feels the game is forcing them to spam powers to win, maybe it's not the game, but the attitude of the gamer.

 

Freedom of choice is fine, but limits are needed when the temptation is too great for what is too destructive. There are laws to not steal, laws to not kill, and laws to not defame. However, it is perfectly within our rights as well to petition for adjustments to the legal system when it becomes opressive--it's a two way system where we should not allow the government to rob us, harm us, or disregard our privacy and identity. That said, here in Warframe the consequences of our particularly decadent overuse of abilities to solve simple problems with excess force, our current problem is the sustainability of the game and player interest. The two parties are not citizen and government, but player and developer. As a person who's farmed Viver to max out 4 syndicates well before the syndicate point rework, I know exactly how tempting it is to powerfarm, but I also know it was quite justified due to the excessive obstacle syndicate reputation was when the system first arrived. That said, the limiting system is definitely needed but requires refinement before and after implementation.

 

1) For the most part, we're attempting to target particularly destructive abilities that trivialize gameplay.

2) It's totally acceptable to bypass these limitations as a team of two or more players.

3) We're trying to allow simpler quality-of-life abilities to work as flawlessly as they do now.

4) The system should ideally work in a generic form to limit ability without custom-tuning on specific abilities, however since we know abilities have varying stats for duration, energy cost, and toggle drain rate, specific abilities can also be tuned to be more dispensable or immune to the limiting systems.

 

Cloaking with Ash or Loki does not ruin gameplay in any matter. Warframes killing everything within 35 to 60 meters for only 25 energy infinitely without end is something which definitely trivializes gameplay. And yes, just as laws can be broken, so can these limiting systems too be broken with cooperation. The goal is not to make your gameplay sterile, but to ensure others do not do it for you. It would be quite bad to be robbed at gunpoint outside your home one day and simply shrug it off as the way of the world, only to expect it to happen again tomorrow since y'know, there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it and it's quite fun to rob you daily. In this sense, the developers feel betrayed by us when we trivialize their game and they keep implementing various unfair forms of obstacles in their bulky enemy resistances, mechanisms which instantly drain energy, and as of now, enemies that actively go to disable your powers within a radius of themselves. We feel betrayed by them in turn, feeling justified to use our overpowered abilities to keep combating their overpowered obstacles.

 

So I wanted earlier abilities to be more dispensable, and radial trivializing abilities to take a back seat in gameplay. Let's go by a few rules of thumb for how this can be implemented...

 

Duration-based abilities should not be penalized. This includes Cloak, World On Fire, Warcry, Chaos, Snow Globe, and similar abilities. Duration abilities tend to be very balanced and non-destructive.

 

Toggles should not be penalized unless they are sustained too long or toggle-released too often. Most toggles are balanced, within a particular duration. Indefinitely suspending Peacemaker can be seen as a cop-out for gameplay, as is instantly initiating and releasing Absorb. Toggles held for longer than 15 seconds should gradually have a higher drain rate. Toggles released constantly should require more energy to initiate again for the first bit of energy spent when starting the ability.

 

This goes without saying, radial ultimates would be affected by a less complex system of cast counts and rate of replenishment. The developers can implement a faster/slower replenish rate depending on the ability in question.

 

As for penalties acquired, the penalty would only be acquired when the charge meter for the ability drops below zero percent.

 

Let's try fine-tuning the concept in a draft.

 

A system that encourages earlier abilities to be used more often than later ones. Replace cast limits with charge meter % consumption for that particular ability's charge meter. Lower tier abilities will cost less charge percentage and/or replenish faster on their respective meter, and therefore have an easier time overcharging due to their low cost and possibly higher replenish rate. This will act as an indirect yet significant buff to earlier abilities which in general will become more powerful just by being low-tier abilities.

 

Each ability will have a charge meter that reaches 100%. If these abilities are not used, the normal recharge rate past 100% will be diminished to a tenth of what it started, but the ability is allowed to overcharge to a particular ceiling. Let's try 200% for now to reward patient gameplay that resists using this ability.

 

Let's try rounded numbers for charge rates. 30/20/12/4. Where the first ability charges at a rate of 30% per second, and the ultimate ability recharges at a rate of 4% per second. The first ability will be fully charged in less than 4 seconds from the bottom. The radial ultimate ability will be recharged in about 25 seconds from the bottom. These recharge rates will not stop expanding regardless of whether or not you are using your abilities. The first ability will overcharge at a rate of 3% per second. The radial ultimate will overcharge at a rate of 0.4% per second. It is definitely feasible for your first ability to have 200% strength, range, and duration scaled off your mods so long as you don't touch it for a while. Let's use Radial Javelin as a radial nuke example. Technically if you wait long enough without using it, You can do 5680 damage in 73.2 meters if you're using max strength without using Overextended if you wait for the meter to fill to 200%. It's just unlikely anyone would ever let it fill that far without using the ability, but the option is there for anyone who wills it to be.

 

Let's decide on a drain rate. For this experimental draft I will propose all abilities drain the same percentage from their respective meters per cast, allowing the differing replenish rates to compensate. The system can alternatively be flipped so the drain rates are different, but the replenish rates the same. By this alternative, all abilities will be much more dispensable, but the overcharge limit will have to be brought down to something more humble like 125% to compensate for how quickly players will get their abilities back if untouched.

 

Let's try draft #1. Let's suggest Shuriken. It will consume 25% of it's ability meter, only to replenish 30% in a second. It's almost impossible to throw more than one Shuriken per second so it will never go into the negatives.

 

For ability #2, Smokescreen. Let's assume you modded it to last for about 10 seconds. The use of the ability will drain 25% out of the meter, but it will regain 20% per second. Within less than two seconds, you can use Smokescreen with no penalties. It's very unlikely your Smokescreen would be modded to only last less than 2 seconds so you don't need to worry.

 

For ability #3, let's suggest Teleport. This is an ability which can be spammed and is also a later tier ability. Using it will consume 25% of the meter, and at a rate of 12% per second it will be fully operational within about 2 seconds. You can spam Teleport much faster than it would ever be a problem to sustain it.

 

What about Blade Storm? You cast this ability, and it will consume 25% of the meter. It will recharge at a rate of 4% per second. Blade Storm requires quite a few seconds to finish, maybe 6 or 7. Your Blade Storm will fully replenish in nearly 6 seconds, which means you can actually spam it infinitely without feeling any pressure. So 4% per second is considerably lenient. Maybe too much so. Let's just decrease the replenish rate to 2% per second. That sounds harsh, but what does it mean in practice? it will only require 12.5 seconds of time for Blade Storm to be fully operational to use again. Most abilities once cast tend to crown control for 4 seconds past the period you press than button. That means that for everyone one-third of the time you are spamming abilities at optimum efficiency, the entire room is stunlocked. The other two-thirds majority of the time you are not stunlocking the room constantly.

 

So let's compare quick radial damagers, not Blade Storm. You can cast quicker radial damagers 4 times within 8 seconds. During these 8 seconds, you are the majority of your way to the next cast--16% within the meter as you're midway spamming this nuke. You can spam it 4 times without any penalty. The 5th time, the meter will be charged between 18% and 20%. For casting this ability 5 times over, you will only incur at most, a 7% penalty to your stats.

 

Really? That's it? I can spam a nuke 5 times over and only lose 7% of the effect on the fifth time?

 

Well, yes. If you spam again 6 times, the meter will only replenish about 4 or so % during the next cast. You will be penalized in all attributes by 21% the next time you cast this ability, and it will remain like that until you stop spamming this radial nuke for only 13 seconds. So you can spam this radial nuke 5 times over with almost zero penalty, and even the worse your ability can be isn't so terrible.

 

There you have it, the system can work extremely well to hinder spam a bit without ruining your gameplay. It should honestly be harsher but I'll leave it there for now. Maybe an 8 second flatline for no regeneration if you fall below 0% on a cast, or a hit in your shields and health if you do so. Regardless, all it aims to do is slow down constant nuking. That's all the limiting system really does for sudden damage nukes. Toggles can be approximated similarly into the system taking an amount of drain on the ability meter, and draining out charge over time as it remains toggled. Once it hits zero percent, your actual energy cost per second begins to rise for the ability, and it becomes weaker.

 

Simply put, the recharge meter is essentially Energy 2.0. There's the standard energy meter that replenishes via energy packs, Energy Vampire, energy orbs, Equilibrium, Limbo's Rift, and every other source of energy in the game. However, the charge meter is innate, and there are separate charge meters per ability. For this draft, the only difference between the abilities is their replenish rate. If the system is somehow too harsh on any ability, the developers can raise the replenish rate on an ability. If the ability is too powerful, they can lower the replenish rate on an ability. The ability will always be powerful, but your ability to spam it 6 times over or more wouldn't look as attractive. That's it in a nutshell. It affects almost nobody except players spamming radial nukes every 5 to 10 seconds. You've probably never even seen a squad like that if you're not elite, but there's quite a few out there who do abuse abilities to that level.

 

Also keep in mind that with 2 Excaliburs juggling syndicate farming and timing their Radial Javelin nukes to alternate in sync, the cooldown time between both of them is only 6.25 seconds. Meanwhile the crowd control from the Javelin lasts for 4 seconds. That's only a 2 second break between the nuking. If you had 3 Excalibur, there is no limit to the nuking.

 

It looks like a fair enough draft, but remember that all numbers are subject to change as the developers and player community see fit. That said, the system is very valid considering the depth of fine tuning possible.

 

 

 

 

As for your Oblivion Comparison

You just compared a multiplayer game to a game where you can mod everything to be easy, there's already too many ways to be overpowered, and you can just press the tilde (~) on your keyboard to pause the game, highlight any enemy you see, type "kill" and the enemy is dead. Or you can type "kill 14" (your player character's ID in the Construction Set) and get credit for the kill. You can even just open the console and type "killall 14" and kill everyone in the area while getting all credit for it. Because the IDs are the same in Oblivion and Skyrim since they are built off the same engine and recycle code from the previous game, these commands and other commands work in Skyrim as well. You can kill an underpowered weakling boss to get a seriously good weapon at level 2 in Oblivion, or just use the console to give yourself any weapon. You may as well not want to play Warframe, that's an online multiplayer MOBA+co-op. No, you want everything spoon fed to you. In a game where players compete against each other both directly in PvP and indirectly in co-op scores and the trading economy, you just want to win it all. Real life doesn't work that way, and neither should this game you share with hundreds of other people.

 

Do you know how bad that is in a multiplayer game? To have someone just kill everything and remove all gameplay agency from you and the rest of your squad? The fact that they get all the credit for kills and damage done at the end while you had no choice but to not participate? This is the reason why everyone wants to be a nuker now, hence why everyone's nuking, hence why the game collectively ceases to exist quite often. This is the reason why any time you mention Primed Chamber to a long-time player, they moan in agony since kill stealing was actually a problem back then--you got no event credit. You just compared Warframe to one of the most casual and overpowered play styles anyone can ever revel in. This shouldn't happen in a multiplayer game. It shouldn't happen since it ruins other people's fun, ruins the longevity of the game, and makes developers greedy to push more obstacles at us since we're sure to overcome them. The Balor Fomorian event definitely challenged us for grinding, and the devs thought it okay since we had enough power in our hands to easily break the scoreboard to show scores with over #e07+ float values. There's no limit to our abilities anywhere, hence why there will never be a limit to the grind or RNG. That's a given unless "press 4 to win" is resolved, as is the development pattern that is partly responsible for it, and partly feeding into it.

 

Meanwhile I just answered a private message on the forums to teach someone how to build a bunch of warframes for strength-based nuking. Really.

 

 

 

Yes I gave him a very good tutorial. However I did give a small disclaimer to try playing with balance and always consider teammates by being within 50 meters so they get XP from the kills. Still, everyone, their mother, and that mother's unborn children are or will be a mindless nuker. That's the fate of Warframe unless we change it.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MechaKnight

[Shuuro]

Hah. I didn't expect to see myself quoted here, espeically with that picture of my BladeStorm. (by the way, BladeStorm hits 17 times, not 15).

 

and to add to Alpha's response:

 

And for that Blade Storm, did he tell you what the teams auras were? Because 4 corrosive projections and that armor counts for nothing. Compound that with Ash's bleed proc, and enemies are just bullet sponges, but bullet sponges without damage mitigation. Not to mention we have no idea if the gunner was attacked before the Ultimate by others. But in that high level content, you really think it's a surprise that people went for their most powerful ability? Who the Hek goes that far and expects to use lackluster powers to get the job done? Of course not! No one said anything about buffing Blade Storm, not that I remember from this thread. Even then, Blade Storm wouldn't be the best option, they should've focus fired with guns, that would've been faster.

 

It was a full corrosive projection, Slowva (Slow Nova), Blade Storm, Desecrate, and EV spam team.

 

Yes, my dread could have killed the gunner in one or two shots, which, I had done. (you can see my dread in the UI) but none the less. Why did I use blade storm? Because of laziness. Sheer. Laziness, and that might be yet another problem. Some of these abilities just.. ALLOW us to be lazy.

 

Yes. I COULD have shot the guy in the face for about 200k+, but instead, I blade stormed, sat back, and felt like being lazy, and to my surprise. It worked! It worked to the point where I felt inclined to take screenshots of it, to prove others wrong, as you can see in that post. (I forget which post it was, but I'm pretty sure someone was saying Ash needed a buff, I had to put my two cents in).

 

Ash doesn't need to be any stronger. Anything stronger than... THAT, is just encouraging even more players to join in on more easy fixes to getting the job done.

 

 

I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while, and I must admit. I do feel changes are needed in warframe to enrich our experiences here.

 

When I first played this game, way back over a year ago, with the old star chart, UI, etc. In my FIRST mission. I stealthed, and took things at a slow pace. I enjoyed it. I LOVED it. Save for the fact that I was playing solo and I had to be more cautious, I still loved the experience of getting through areas through my own understanding of the game. To me, this was fun. Overcoming a challenge, was fun.

 

and this is where things get.. complicated.

 

What. IS. Fun?

 

Fun for me? Well. Fun for me is going on a mass killing spree. NOT a press nuke to kill everything in the vicinity kind of mass killing spree, but a stealthy, assassin like kill spree, where I enjoy running around with melee in hand, bow in back, and silently taking enemies down, throwing a smokescreen to avoid inevitable detection (because 7 grineer in a tight hallway is so fair for stealth).

 

Fun for me, is being challenge as a PLAYER, which is why I enjoy things like.. Dark Souls. Not everyone likes the difficulty of the game, or how punishing it was, but I actually LOVED, that there was actually a game out there, that had some pretty challenging elements to it. Fun for me, maybe not too much fun for the next guy.

 

So that brings us to the next part of the question. What is, your version of Fun?

 

It could be.. being an overpowered demi-god ninja in space spamming that nuclear ability. It could be overcoming challenges too great to be completed by the average player. It could even be as simple as just chilling out in region chat, or even the new Relays and just socializing.

 

What could be fun for me, probably wont be fun for everyone, and that is a difficult thing to not only grasp, but to program into a game.

 

There are many 'flavors' of fun that can be seen in Warframe, but if we're going to see all of them become accessible, to us, it's going to take a very long time.

 

 

Now, I've been giving some of my own thought how we could possibly add in more difficulty, or flavor into the game, WITHOUT even changing the current warframe, and then it hit me. There was a specific series that, I loved to play years ago, and yet another game that I recently played that had the same feature.

 

Halo, and Sanctum.

 

Now, what did these two had in common? The ability to change the difficulty of the game, NOT ONLY, through the difficulty setting, but by adding in Skulls/Feats of strength.

 

By enabling these, the game would change entirely.

 

No Hud. Stronger enemies, heal and recover shields only when you melee. That kind of difficulty.

 

This would bring the option for more difficult gameplay, something that could be enable and disabled before entering a match. We could call these, Lotus marks, or Feats of Tenno, I don't know, horrible at making names, but you get the idea.

 

This image comes to mind, which can also be found on DevStream 43:

 

 

Imagine the ability to customize our matches to match our own liking of difficulty. Making matches harder could prove to.. increase drop rate? Increase affinity gained? Make rares drop more frequently. There are many options that could possibly await us.

 

It could even be possible to add in those diminishing returns to powers that MechaKnight had previously mentioned, which, I do think is a great idea. I was going to post a similar idea, since it revolved around the same concept in another game. Other abilities become stronger than others depending on play style, rewarding players for using more skill diversity instead of mindlessly droning away at ult ult ult.

 

 

We could essentially keep the warframe we have now, as the 'normal' mode of the game, and yet, be able to tweak it to our own difficulty curve through difficulty settings and Feats of Tenno/Lotus marks.

 

The way I see it, like this, we'd have our cake, and we could eat it too, without bickering about how that guys cake looks better than mine, because we all have our own flavor of cake.

[MechaKnight]

Shuuuuuuro!

 

Thanks, really. At least I feel somewhat more at peace. I still dislike ability spam since it trivializes the game to nothing way too often. However, I still think we should talk about solutions just in case this difficulty setting doesn't change our nuke problem.

[vaugahn]

However, I still think we should talk about solutions just in case this difficulty setting doesn't change our nuke problem.

 

Change the duration malus on Fleeting Expertise to a range malus.

 

People are able to nuke like crazy because most nukes don't have a duration aspect, making Fleeting a straight efficiency bonus with no downside. Changing duration to range would make it much harder to spam those cheap nukes. Of course it's not a perfect solution as I'm sure it would cause a whole host of other issues with rangeless abilities, but I think it would be preferable to what we have now.

 

I also like LoS checks as a potential solution, but I don't see that going over well.

Edited January 7, 2015 by vaugahn

[MechaKnight]

Change the duration malus on Fleeting Expertise to a range malus.

 

People are able to nuke like crazy because most nukes don't have a duration aspect, making Fleeting a straight efficiency bonus with no downside. Changing duration to range would make it much harder to spam those cheap nukes. Of course it's not a perfect solution as I'm sure it would cause a whole host of other issues with rangeless abilities, but I think it would be preferable to what we have now.

 

I also like LoS checks as a potential solution, but I don't see that going over well.

That's incredibly elementary, quite good. Players didn't really care about the duration loss usually. Since we can now stack duration to 282%, what's a loss of 40% for 70% efficiency or 50% for 75% efficiency? Barely anything.

[vaugahn]

That's incredibly elementary, quite good. Players didn't really care about the duration loss usually. Since we can now stack duration to 282%, what's a loss of 40% for 70% efficiency or 50% for 75% efficiency? Barely anything.

It's not even that; Duration is essentially a non-issue for nuke frames. There's no need to build for duration at all if you just want to spam Radial Javelin, which makes Fleeting an obvious choice with no downsides.

[Lukap99]

Alright, how about this.

We "nerf" (I'll explain in a bit) every fourth ability to a more primordial form. To use your regular ult, you have to charge that ability up, and waste an amount of energy, which can not be influenced by mods, and then release it.

Now, while the initial use of this ability is reduced, you still have to waste an additional 25, 50 energy for it's final form.

Let's use radial javelin as an example.

 

TIER ONE: Excalibur throws a javelin that deals damage and pins an enemy to nearby walls if present.

TIER TWO - SACRIFICE 35 ENERGY: RJ's original form. Javelins burst from Excalibur's location and deal damage if the hit am enemy.

TIER THREE - SACRIFICE 45 ADDITIONAL ENERGY: RJ's current form + pinning enemies to walls.

 

Higher tiers can also add additional bonuses that the original ability didn't have.

 

Some abilities, primarily Nyx's, peacemaker and soundquake, don't need this tier system.

 

Also regular abilities can be turned into their own ults if charged enough. So, essentially we're adding new 5-8 abilities per frame, excluding simple damage buffs and toggle abilities. that would be around 140 new abilities.

Quite a lot of work, perhaps too much work. But I'm simply throwing in my two bits. And I'm sure a lot of you can think of ways to fix P4TW without 140 new abilities.

[CandyDragon]

Press 4 to win is not the fault of the players.

 

The current game design offers no variety in challenge for you to kill.

The current skill setup and functionality of powers does not have to change to fix this.

 

Nullifiers, I hate them, are a step in the right direction by forcing player strategy to change.

Unfortunately, they are the only real thing that changes your approach.

 

Eximus enemies seem to have been an attempt in the right direction, however they didn't toy with the concept of altering player behavior very much.

 

We just need more variety in what we have to deal with, without making them oversaturated with the new feature. (See: The rediculous ammount of nullifiers we had for a while)

[MechaKnight]

It's time to compound the earlier draft into some pseudo-code. The devs are looking for a streamlined way to understand and implement feedback so I'll get to it.

 

For the most part we're concerned with radial nukes but everything's fair game. The developers tend to implement their fixes and changes in patches so they'll probably implement this as a manual inclusion on all of them one at a time.

 

Since I decided earlier 2% per second fill rate and a drain rate of 25 energy per use on a meter of 100% is viable, I'll be building off that. I'll round down the penalty and lock it at 20% for now but more can be done later.

 

Start charge meter at 0

Increment 2 per second

Run standard cost of 25

 

>If User casts radial

>>Check meter

>>>If user has at least 25 score

>>>>cast full potency radial

 

>>>If user does not have enough score on meter

>>>>subtract down to zero

>>>>>cast 80% effective ability

 

End.

 

That's it really. It can simply be boiled down to...

 

Charge start = V

Charge max = W

Charge Rate = X

Cast Cost = Y

Overpull Penalty = Z

 

#Create limits for charge "meter" with V and W

 

Minimum meter V

Maximum meter W

Recharge at rate of X

 

>If User casts radial

>>Check meter

>>>If user has at least Y points

>>>>cast full potency radial

 

>>>If user does not have enough score on meter

>>>>subtract down to zero (V)

>>>>>cast (100-Z)% effective ability

 

End.

 

I mean, the overcomplicated thinking was to flesh out the concept really. It boils down to pretty simple implementation. For the most part this should still mean you're not casting this radial more than 5 times before waiting 12.5 seconds, otherwise you'll get a 20% stat penalty. Just wait 12.5 seconds past the penalty and the ability is back in full strength. Wait a bit more and you can cast it 5 times over again no problem.

 

These limits are extremely forgiving, but I'm impressed there have been none all this time.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MechaKnight

[AlphaHorseman]

-snip-

 

You talk about having the freedom to play the game how a player wishes to play, yet the rest of your post was about limiting how a player can play how they want to play. You literally just went in to describe a system where you can't use your powers as you see fit and opened it with "you can play how you want to play" and "Freedom" when your system isn't how that works. The beauty of WarFrame is that you can literally play how you want to play, and your proposed "change" or whatever you want to call it, goes completely against that because it hurts players for doing exactly what WarFrame is about, playing how you want to play. No one is being oppressive, a gunner could just as well run ahead and clear out a room before a caster gets there, just like how a caster can run ahead to do the same. It all comes down to how people play, but hurting everybody just because a few people play a certain way isn't any way to help the progression of WarFrame to be a better game.

 

In no way is that a good change, because it removes player agency, it removes the freedom to do so, it removes a core aspect of WarFrame that makes it WarFrame. None of us said anything about putting cool downs on weapons, or making them overheat from "overuse", because that would be stupid and silly, and limits gunners from playing how they want to play. You literally are proposing such a thing with powers, when they themselves already have obstacles to their use and function. See my post on how the systems work in tandem for why that was an extremely bad idea. So no, I stand firmly against that "change" you propose because it's no longer the players in charge of how they want to play, it's a system that dictates when and where they can play how they want to play. There is no place in WarFrame for that, not in my book.

 

Nighttide77 said it far better than I did:

 

Don't you think that is exactly what you're doing to some of us?  We're not telling you you have to play the P42W style, we're saying you have the freedom to do so.  However, you're telling us that you want to take that freedom of choice away.  If you don't like people to use P42W (even though I don't always do so because it does get dry), why not make it a thing to ask on the recruiting chat for people of that mindset?  Something like "LF2M T4S anti-P42W"

 

If people quit the game because of pugs, then I don't know if I can feel bad for them.  Pugs always have that chance of being terrible, and P42W is a small issue compared to what else the can do to grief people...like leave their teammates to die when they could easily revive them...especially in a game where anyone can revive anyone else.  I quit playing TF2 and L4D for the reason that pugs were not working together or that my opponents were actually not enough of a challenge.  I don't expect there to be any changes to those games to accommodate me, either, because it's my own fault I didn't try to find a clan or group that made playing fun and more organized.

 

---

 

So...I was giving it some thought...I tried the idea of just imagining what it would be like to lose the P42W nuke abilities...  What if...just imagining this...what if players did not have any abilities that allowed them to nuke?  Or that the nuke abilities were just not viable, and even mass CC lasted even less time (like Nyx's Chaos only had 10 seconds with and spamming the ability made it last 2 seconds less each consecutive time)?  What if the game started that way so that those of us whom got a taste of what it's like to clear a 45m radius of cannon fodder never knew what that was like?

 

Gotta remember, the ideas proposed were not just for damage, but for any power that allowed a person to simply win no matter what.

 

Shoot...if Ash's Smoke Screen lasted 2 seconds less each consecutive time it was cast...would definitely be a bit more challenging waiting for a cool down to be able to use it to its full extent again...but only as difficult as finding a one-door room and just shooting anything that comes through until I am ready again.

 

If the game was a little more difficult in that way, would that make people want to come back or stay longer?  That's really the focus of the discussion, right?  Whether an increase in difficulty would make players stick around.

 

I don't believe people would.  Anyone, please make a counter argument if you disagree.

 

I don't believe people would come back or stay longer if they didn't have an ability that just made them win for the following reasons:

1) they are still shooting the same enemies, most of which are just bullet sponges

2) the missions still have the same objectives, but instead of spamming powers you just try to shoot/melee the enemy faster than they can overwhelm you

3) the rewards are still the same

4) the RNG wall still exists to keep players from certain rewards

5) there still won't be anything more than there currently is that challenges people to think harder, faster, or be more observant, except to watch for specific enemies that are dangerous

 

I would like to do a social experiment with this if anyone has the resources.  We can all sit here and deliberate over this as much as we want, but we won't know for sure if we don't actually experiment.

 

I would like to see if people who have left the game would come back and play a few missions, but use a self-imposed handicap mod builds that keep from being able to use a power to simply win.  Oh, and run those missions with a predefined group, not a pug group without the handicaps.

 

The experiment would be to see whether such individuals would enjoy the game more if they simply aren't able to spam an "I win" power.  I wager they would not enjoy the game any further because there is nothing more to gain from the game whether it's more difficult.  At the same time, anyone who comes back would potentially still have that mindset of "why am I handicapping myself when I could just build to win?"  I believe anyone that plays any game to figure out how to wreck whole levels the easiest and fastest will never enjoy the journey of playing the game.

 

I think my best example of this is when I used to play Oblivion.  I remember that I could just spam-cast a 100% Chameleon, which allowed me to be entirely invisible and attack enemies without losing invisibility and allowing them to attack me back.  I even regenerated mana back fast enough to not lose my invisibility, except when the timer was up.  Sound familiar to anything in Warframe?

 

At the end, I defeated the bosses, explored all these dungeons, got the treasures, and basically completed the story of the game.  After I got all the rewards from treasures and storyline, I was bored.  I got nothing by further exploring the game because I was basically playing on easy mode and there wasn't any further excitement from finding out what happens in the storyline or getting that special gem from a dungeon.  I haven't played Oblivion ever since, and even though there's the option to go back through the game using an entirely different strategy, why would I?  I already know what happens and what virtual treasure I would gain from different dungeons.

 

So...if I played Oblivion and got bored from just spamming Chameleon, why can I play Warframe and spam Smoke Screen but keep going?

 

It's because this is the only game where I have options and freedom to decide how I play the game.  I mean, what other game allows me to choose a stealth ability set, but then still equip a bazooka or heavy chain gun?  I can choose a heavy frame but still equip daggers, I can choose a stealth frame, but equip that awesome Jat Kittag.  Further, I can choose to jump kick a row of enemies, and the slide attack them while they're getting up.  Sure, Oblivion allowed me to be a heavy armored guy with small weapons, but I couldn't jump kick, parkour or anything with combat finesse.  I still get a kick out of the slide attack for kogake or obex...even though they're not the highest damage weapons, that slide attack is hilarious.  Even the kestrel isn't high damage, but its 100% rag doll proc never gets old.

 

Based on that, even if DE looked at this thread and thought, "yeah, we really should implement a sort of anti-spam system like MechaKnight suggests" and did so, I'm almost certain I would still keep playing Warframe simply for the fact that there's a combat finesse much like some Prince of Persia games.

 

The only reason I suppose I do not agree with those on the anti-P42W boat is because I'm a proponent of the freedom to choose whether that's a strategy you want to employ.  With freedom comes responsibility and the chance others abuse that freedom.  However, just because there are those that abuse that freedom doesn't mean that everyone should bear the consequences.  That would be like saying since there are drunk drivers, everyone should have to install a sobriety test machine in their vehicle that keeps the car from starting if the test fails.  That logic is flawed, especially since there will also be those that still find a way around the system.

 

If someone feels the game is forcing them to spam powers to win, maybe it's not the game, but the attitude of the gamer.

 

So no, what "change" you proposed isn't a change so much as a massive nerf as to player agency, and how others want to play the game differently than others do.

[AlphaHorseman]

Change the duration malus on Fleeting Expertise to a range malus.

 

People are able to nuke like crazy because most nukes don't have a duration aspect, making Fleeting a straight efficiency bonus with no downside. Changing duration to range would make it much harder to spam those cheap nukes. Of course it's not a perfect solution as I'm sure it would cause a whole host of other issues with rangeless abilities, but I think it would be preferable to what we have now.

 

I also like LoS checks as a potential solution, but I don't see that going over well.

 

It's not even that; Duration is essentially a non-issue for nuke frames. There's no need to build for duration at all if you just want to spam Radial Javelin, which makes Fleeting an obvious choice with no downsides.

 

Remember though that it would drastically hurt other powers as well, that do rely on range or otherwise. Frosts overall kit, Nyx's powers outside of Psychic bolts, and others as well. You're only thinking of one power within one warframes kit, when in actuality that one mod affects all powers in a kit differently. Changing Fleeting Expertise to hinder range isn't going to help nukes, it's going to hurt them and many other builds for many other frames.