Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[I00thlurker]

If you aren't good at your job, you get fired. But you can get better and get paid.

 

Are you for real?

[MoonicusMaximus]

Ahahaha "frustration is what you'll always feel when faced with a real challenge". Funny, I was never frustrated in Post-Human Warrior in Crysis 2 and 3, or Delta difficulty in Crysis 1. Meanwhile, Veteran in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare was probably not nearly as 'difficult' (in the sense that it was way easier to just grind my way through checkpoints over time) but way more frustrating. Vanquish was quite challenging, even on normal, but not really frustrating. And you know, Warframe, despite being way the hell easier than PHW Crysis 3 is still more frustrating. No, you are objectively wrong. Frustration doesn't happen when a challenging enemy exists. Frustration happens when a frustrating game mechanic, in other words, fake difficulty, is added in.

 

So, when I am, say, playing a game of hoops with another fella, and he's beating me and I'm getting frustrated, it's not that I need to play better or that I don't have the necessary skills to beat him, it's because he is faking difficulty.

 

Man, that's some deep stuff.

 

Frustration is what you experience when you approach something that is challenging to you yourself. Frustration isn't experienced the same across all spectrum by different people.

 

If you're right, and Rollers are easy to fight, they should be removed and replaced with a better enemy, because they're frustrating without being challenging. If you're wrong, and Rollers aren't easy to counter, they should be removed and replaced with a better enemy, because they're frustrating and create fake difficulty. Interestingly enough your "argument", Moonicus, if you can even call it that, is wrong no matter how correct you are. Because either way they're unfun agency removal things. If  they create difficulty it's bad difficulty and they should be removed. If they don't create difficulty they fail at what they're intended to do and should be removed.

 

Wrong. If I'm right, Rollers are reasonable to fight if you expend effort to do so, and shouldn't be removed from the game because their difficulty is not the only matter at hand when you consider removing them. You have to consider the roles they fill in the Grineer roster, the additional layers of gameplay they add, and so on. If I'm wrong, then Rollers are just too difficult and provide a role in the Grineer lineup that just shouldn't be filled, and we should remove them so that the only thing we are shooting at when we fight Grineer are ugly mugs that pop up from behind boxes like carnival games.

 

And also, your job analogy is hilarious. Jobs are allowed to be unfun and frustrating because you get paid for them. If DE wants to pay me to play Warframe, they can put in all the Rollers they want. Until then, I'm going to argue for maximizing fun and minimizing frustration, and I don't give a single whit if some toxic customers who play solely for the schadenfreude of less-skilled players suffering leave the game. In fact, I welcome it and DE probably should welcome it. People who think "you have to EARN your fun" is a good philosophy should be shoved right back into the Tomb of Horrors where they belong.

 

This would be a good point, if your idea of fun was the universal definition. Unfortunately, it is not. I prefer being challenged when I play a game. I don't think of it as work unless it actually IS work. Fighting Rollers in Warframe isn't work; to me, it is fun. And like you, I play to have fun, and will voice my opinions on what I find fun and would like to continue experiencing until I'm breathless.

 

Focus on the analogy for what I mean it to express, not what you want to see.

 

I was going to make a post about how frustration and difficulty are not in anyway intertwined but MJ12 just nailed it.

Here's an extension of games that are hard but not frustrating:

Demon's/Dark Souls

Bayonetta

Almost any classic/ Classic-inspired FPS, on higher difficulties, these almost always provide a solid challenge and frustration exists because of ones failures as a player.

 

And frustrations in Warframe don't exist because of one's failures as a player?

 

Dark Souls is frustrating when you die to something instantly with next to no warning, until you learn to combat it or approach it properly. I was frustrated slightly when I didn't know I needed to use Transient Curses to actually fight the ghosts in New Londo Ruins. Then I figured it out and suddenly, my frustration was gone, until they started coming out of walls by the dozen, anyway. Those ghosts didn't need to be removed because of my lack of knowledge.

 

Bayonetta can be frustrating if you are presented with a difficult scenario at which you fail, like the first time you fight Gracious and Glorious, until you learn how to fight them and develop the good reflexes and moves that are required of them. I died my first few times against them because of the tiny window of time that dodges and parries would activate Witch Time was hard for me to get a handle on. Then I got it, and I overcame the challenge. Gracious and Glorious didn't need to be removed because of my lack of timing or skill in gameplay.

 

It's the same as Rollers. Rollers will knock you around endlessly until you find the best way to approach them. I did the Roller Jig for quite a while until I improved my aim and changed my tactics to work around a situation that has changed with the introduction of Rollers. Rollers don't need to be removed because of a lack of ability to properly fight them stemming from their small frame and high speed.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[CrazyCanadian24]

Ahahaha "frustration is what you'll always feel when faced with a real challenge". Funny, I was never frustrated in Post-Human Warrior in Crysis 2 and 3, or Delta difficulty in Crysis 1. Meanwhile, Veteran in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare was probably not nearly as 'difficult' (in the sense that it was way easier to just grind my way through checkpoints over time) but way more frustrating. Vanquish was quite challenging, even on normal, but not really frustrating. And you know, Warframe, despite being way the hell easier than PHW Crysis 3 is still more frustrating. No, you are objectively wrong. Frustration doesn't happen when a challenging enemy exists. Frustration happens when a frustrating game mechanic, in other words, fake difficulty, is added in.

 

If you're right, and Rollers are easy to fight, they should be removed and replaced with a better enemy, because they're frustrating without being challenging. If you're wrong, and Rollers aren't easy to counter, they should be removed and replaced with a better enemy, because they're frustrating and create fake difficulty. Interestingly enough your "argument", Moonicus, if you can even call it that, is wrong no matter how correct you are. Because either way they're unfun agency removal things. If  they create difficulty it's bad difficulty and they should be removed. If they don't create difficulty they fail at what they're intended to do and should be removed.

 

And also, your job analogy is hilarious. Jobs are allowed to be unfun and frustrating because you get paid for them. If DE wants to pay me to play Warframe, they can put in all the Rollers they want. Until then, I'm going to argue for maximizing fun and minimizing frustration, and I don't give a single whit if some toxic customers who play solely for the schadenfreude of less-skilled players suffering leave the game. In fact, I welcome it and DE probably should welcome it. People who think "you have to EARN your fun" is a good philosophy should be shoved right back into the Tomb of Horrors where they belong.

 

Tabletop RPGs have realized for the longest time ever that "you have to EARN your fun" is a $&*&*#(%& statement and anyone who insists on this should rightfully be mocked and marginalized. Computer games really need to take the same stance.

 

Stay right where you are, I'm gonna go get a free internet for you.

[MJ12]

So, when I am, say, playing a game of hoops with another fella, and he's beating me and I'm getting frustrated, it's not that I need to play better or that I don't have the necessary skills to beat him, it's because he is faking difficulty.

 

Man, that's some deep stuff.

 

Frustration is what you experience when you approach something that is challenging to you yourself. Frustration isn't experienced the same across all spectrum by different people.

 

Well of course if you're playing Lebron James or Jeremy Lin and you're unathletic you're going to get frustrated. Because you have no chance of winning. Funnily enough this is generally considered a bad thing. Even if you're perfectly capable of beating the game, even if it requires no real skill, you can feel like you can't win. Games should avoid this at all costs because frankly, nobody needs to play them. Free to play games even more so, because they have no sunk cost fallacy. There's no 50 dollar investment which means that I want to stay and get my money's worth. So F2P games have to be even less frustrating than regular, 'mainstream' games, and if they don't do so people end up quitting.

 

Wrong. If I'm right, Rollers are reasonable to fight if you expend effort to do so, and shouldn't be removed from the game because their difficulty is not the only matter at hand when you consider removing them. You have to consider the roles they fill in the Grineer roster, the additional layers of gameplay they add, and so on. If I'm wrong, then Rollers are just too difficult and provide a role in the Grineer lineup that just shouldn't be filled, and we should remove them so that the only thing we are shooting at when we fight Grineer are ugly mugs that pop up from behind boxes like carnival games.

 

No, if you're right, Rollers are unfun until you reach a skill level which is clearly not a level which the majority of players have the time or ability to achieve, and thus they should be removed. If you're wrong, the role Rollers provide can very well be achieved by multiple enemy designs which provide less frustration. People don't really get angry about Grineer Napalms, even though they do more or less the same thing Rollers do-deny you the use of cover. Turns out, when that cover denial doesn't come with a stunlock people find that much less frustrating.

 

This would be a good point, if your idea of fun was the universal definition. Unfortunately, it is not. I prefer being challenged when I play a game. I don't think of it as work unless it actually IS work. Fighting Rollers in Warframe isn't work; to me, it is fun. And like you, I play to have fun, and will voice my opinions on what I find fun and would like to continue experiencing until I'm breathless.

 

Focus on the analogy for what I mean it to express, not what you want to see.

 

Yes, and people can still manage to 'earn their fun'. If you like games where stunlock is a thing, go back to playing Nethack or all those 80s and 90s games full of stunlocks and fake difficulty. Turns out, people who like this kind of stuff are kind of the minority and rightfully not catered to outside of niche titles. There's plenty of hardcore roguelikes or other super-hardcore staggerfest player-emasculation videogames which you'd love if fighting Rollers is your idea of fun.

 

Go play one of them instead and let other people have their fun instead of insisting that your form of fun is the ideal form of fun and everyone else is having badwrongfun when they don't want to be stunlocked if they make a single mistake in the wrong situation.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Well of course if you're playing Lebron James or Jeremy Lin and you're unathletic you're going to get frustrated. Because you have no chance of winning. Funnily enough this is generally considered a bad thing. Even if you're perfectly capable of beating the game, even if it requires no real skill, you can feel like you can't win. Games should avoid this at all costs because frankly, nobody needs to play them. Free to play games even more so, because they have no sunk cost fallacy. There's no 50 dollar investment which means that I want to stay and get my money's worth. So F2P games have to be even less frustrating than regular, 'mainstream' games, and if they don't do so people end up quitting.

 

No, if you're right, Rollers are unfun until you reach a skill level which is clearly not a level which the majority of players have the time or ability to achieve, and thus they should be removed. If you're wrong, the role Rollers provide can very well be achieved by multiple enemy designs which provide less frustration. People don't really get angry about Grineer Napalms, even though they do more or less the same thing Rollers do-deny you the use of cover. Turns out, when that cover denial doesn't come with a stunlock people find that much less frustrating.

 

Yes, and people can still manage to 'earn their fun'. If you like games where stunlock is a thing, go back to playing Nethack or all those 80s and 90s games full of stunlocks and fake difficulty. Turns out, people who like this kind of stuff are kind of the minority and rightfully not catered to outside of niche titles. There's plenty of hardcore roguelikes or other super-hardcore staggerfest player-emasculation videogames which you'd love if fighting Rollers is your idea of fun.

 

Go play one of them instead and let other people have their fun instead of insisting that your form of fun is the ideal form of fun and everyone else is having badwrongfun when they don't want to be stunlocked if they make a single mistake in the wrong situation.

 

Hah, Grineer Napalms. Funny stuff, these guys.

 

It's humorous because they don't force you out of cover. They don't force players to do anything at all. They take forever and a day to fire their weapon, which takes forever and two days to actually reach you... which would be a problem if we were playing as snails. Fortunately for us, unfortunately for the Grineer Napalmer, Tenno have the ability to walk and shoot at the same time, meaning what strategy WOULD have been needed if Napalms were an ACTUAL THREAT has been reduced to stand there, shoot at the stationary Napalms head until it dies, move out of the fire. To make matters even worse for poor Napalmer, he is affected by Freeze mods. So double all periods of time he spends acquiring you as a target and firing.

 

People don't get angry with Napalm Grineer because they impart next to no challenge to a player, and next to no threat to a player. I can't see how fighting them as they are is fun, unless you're just amused by the wasted effort DE went towards making this unit. If you think that's fun, I've got a book of blank tic-tac-toe grids you should really check out, too.

 

And I'm so glad we haven't resorted to telling one another to just go play other games. Because that's always a great argument.

 

You keep going on about stunlock this, stunlock that. Getting back on track of things on-topic, I am going to wager a guess (because I don't believe you've actually ever stated thus) that you dislike Rollers because they can stunlock you? Is this correct? Or is there another reason?

Edited May 7, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Inez]

The problem isn't the rollers, its a game balance problem.  I'm guessing all the people complaining about rollers all primarily play solo, and solo is a lot harder than multiplayer.  DE should address this, not remove rollers.

 

The other problem with game balance is that the game is so much harder when you're starting out.  Mines, sticky rolly things and decompression are really scary when you have no redirection mod, but later on you just ignore them.  Then there's the problem with the slower you go, the more enemies it spawns.  So if you're having trouble with an area, it just gets compounded by spawning more and more enemies.

[Kerrus]

So, when I am, say, playing a game of hoops with another fella, and he's beating me and I'm getting frustrated, it's not that I need to play better or that I don't have the necessary skills to beat him, it's because he is faking difficulty.

 

Man, that's some deep stuff.

 

 

That's a false equivalence and you know it. Someone being better than you is not false difficulty.

It's more like you're playing hoops with another guy, and whenever you get the ball he shoots you with a taser. Regardless of how good you get at playing basketball, you're still going to flop around like a fish when shot with a taser. 

[Spiffmeister]

Give us the ability to pick them up and drop kick them into the face of our enemies.

 

At the moment they're just stun-lock derptrons.

[Killist]

I think rollers make wonderful enemy type.

If rollers weren't there, then Grineer missions would lack variety. Sure it gets annoying when 3 roller balls chain stun you during firefight, but thats why you gotta prioritize. Also, having great team at your side would make short work of these rollers. 

If rollers were gone, then it would be just a matter of time till some guy got chain locked by 2 or 3 shockwave moas and start another thread about why shockwave moas need to be gone

[CrazyCanadian24]

I think rollers make wonderful enemy type.

If rollers weren't there, then Grineer missions would lack variety. Sure it gets annoying when 3 roller balls chain stun you during firefight, but thats why you gotta prioritize. Also, having great team at your side would make short work of these rollers. 

If rollers were gone, then it would be just a matter of time till some guy got chain locked by 2 or 3 shockwave moas and start another thread about why shockwave moas need to be gone

 

Founders are supporting rollers.

 

This makes me a sad Canadian :(

[Killist]

Founders are supporting rollers.

 

This makes me a sad Canadian :(

I dont understand, what does me being a founder and supporting rollers have got to do each other?

I became a founder because I spent over 160 hours in this game and felt that DE has done a great enough a job to warrant at least $50 from me.

I support rollers for variety in gameplay it gives.  If we took away all the annoying enemy types, such as rollers, shockwaves, and ancients, this game would be just like any other FPS in the market.

I would love see more varied enemy types as the game develops

 

I also hail from Canada (Vancouver)

[MJ12]

I dont understand, what does me being a founder and supporting rollers have got to do each other?

I became a founder because I spent over 160 hours in this game and felt that DE has done a great enough a job to warrant at least $50 from me.

I support rollers for variety in gameplay it gives.  If we took away all the annoying enemy types, such as rollers, shockwaves, and ancients, this game would be just like any other FPS in the market.

I would love see more varied enemy types as the game develops

 

I also hail from Canada (Vancouver)

 

"More varied" != "Can stun you". In fact, I'd say the variation in factions and enemy types has been decreasing over time, given that there is apparently some design guy in DE who really really likes stunlocks and gave every faction more methods to stunlock you.

 

Chargers? They didn't stunlock until Update 6. Grinders? They're Yet Another Melee Stunlock unit. Seekers? Hey look, they could stunlock you too.

 

Where's the flying enemies? Teleporting snipers? Guys with armor plates or individual body parts which can be shot off? Enemies who use player mechanics like wallruns or blocking? Stealth enemies? Enemies which can attack you from above? Enemies who can shoot you through cover?

 

Nope. Instead every new enemy since Update 6 is "some guy who can stunlock you".

 

 

Hah, Grineer Napalms. Funny stuff, these guys.

 

It's humorous because they don't force you out of cover. They don't force players to do anything at all. They take forever and a day to fire their weapon, which takes forever and two days to actually reach you... which would be a problem if we were playing as snails. Fortunately for us, unfortunately for the Grineer Napalmer, Tenno have the ability to walk and shoot at the same time, meaning what strategy WOULD have been needed if Napalms were an ACTUAL THREAT has been reduced to stand there, shoot at the stationary Napalms head until it dies, move out of the fire. To make matters even worse for poor Napalmer, he is affected by Freeze mods. So double all periods of time he spends acquiring you as a target and firing.

 

People don't get angry with Napalm Grineer because they impart next to no challenge to a player, and next to no threat to a player. I can't see how fighting them as they are is fun, unless you're just amused by the wasted effort DE went towards making this unit. If you think that's fun, I've got a book of blank tic-tac-toe grids you should really check out, too.

 

So you're saying that you stand in the fire while shooting at them instead of... moving out of the hidey-hole that you shouldn't be hiding in in the first place (you gigantic coward disgrace for a space ninja you)? I can see why Grineer Napalms are ridiculously easy. Turns out that only happens when you're not using cover much. An aggressive playstyle which doesn't involve hiding behind boxes makes them really easy to deal with. This is working as intended. That's not a bad thing. An enemy which is easy when you play the game as intended is not a bad thing.

 

And fighting them is really, really fun compared to fighting Rollers. You know why? Because they don't do bullsh*t stunlocks, they don't require you to aim at a target while under the influence of lag, they don't stun you the moment they brush against your foot, they don't have an arbitrary immunity to crowd control effects like freeze damage, they aren't fast-moving little sh*ts with the superpower to take multiple hits from the sole non-energy using area of effect weapon you have (jump melee attacks), and they actually have more complex animations. I mean they actually have a melee attack and a special ability. You can shoot them in the head for extra damage. That in and of itself puts them a million places above Rollers in terms of 'interesting enemy design'.

 

You're right. They're easy. They could do with a buff. Maybe a pretty serious one. But even in their broken, trivial state they're more interesting and provide more real challenge than Rollers, instead of Roller fake difficulty. Rollers are the epitome of fake difficulty.

 

One type of fake difficulty is an enemy which relies on removal of player agency than actually being difficult to properly fight. Rollers are this.

 

Another type of fake difficulty is an enemy which relies on forcing you to make decisions with bad information. Rollers are this, because they can spawn completely randomly and at any area. You have no idea whether you're going to encounter Rollers or not and what numbers they'll come in and thus can't "plan" to fight them.

 

Yet another type of fake difficulty is an enemy which does not follow the rules the game sets out. Rollers are so much this. Small enemies and fast enemies are extremely fragile in Warframe. Rollers are quite durable for their size. Enemies have distinct attack animations and running into them has no negative consequences. In fact, using certain moves, running into enemies is advantageous-like the jump kick and flip kick. Rollers deal significant damage (20 damage per 'hit', with the ability to suffer multiple 'hits' per second, just by touching them). They cannot be kicked.

 

Yet another type of fake difficulty is luck-based difficulty. Rollers are entirely luck based. Encounter them in tight quarters? They bug out and fail. Encounter them in an area with just enough objects to keep you from shooting them at a distance, or with just enough things happening that you don't notice them for a few seconds? You get stunlocked.

 

Yet another type of fake difficulty is gimmick difficulty. Rollers are a gimmick because you can avoid everything they do via boxes. And you'll want to do exactly that because 'everything they do' involves 'taking away your control and being an awful addition to a good game'.

 

Not a single thing the Grineer Rollers provide is real difficulty. They're just fake difficulty piled on more fake difficulty with fake difficulty cream and a fake difficulty cherry on top. If you like fake difficulty, fine. Most people don't, so stop trying to force us to bow before your unreasonable demands.

 

And I'm so glad we haven't resorted to telling one another to just go play other games. Because that's always a great argument.

 

You mean like you've been doing all the time? "You don't like stunlock? Lrn2play" might as well be telling people to play something else. It's just way more passive-aggressive.

 

You keep going on about stunlock this, stunlock that. Getting back on track of things on-topic, I am going to wager a guess (because I don't believe you've actually ever stated thus) that you dislike Rollers because they can stunlock you? Is this correct? Or is there another reason?

 

Yes, I dislike rollers because they can stunlock me. I bet this is going to lead into a "lrn2play" "argument", wherein it doesn't matter if I can beat Rollers and find them unfun, as long as I find them unfun clearly I need to "lrn2play" better. Stunlock is fundamentally bad game design. Even the possibility of it is bad game design.

 

Agency removal is a terrible mechanic. It was terrible in pen and paper RPGs, it was terrible in roguelikes, it's even more terrible in a fast-paced shooter. If there is any game where the word "stun" should be absolutely verboten for enemy descriptions, Warframe is it.

[Worira]

"More varied" != "Can stun you". In fact, I'd say the variation in factions and enemy types has been decreasing over time, given that there is apparently some design guy in DE who really really likes stunlocks and gave every faction more methods to stunlock you.

 

Curse you, Stunlock Stanley!

[I00thlurker]

I think it's worth stating this, since people seem to be missing the point.

The problem isn't "Rollers exist, do away with them". Enemy variety is good.

It's "Rollers exist, and there exist absolutely zero ways to mitigate their stun in any fashion. This needs to be fixed."

Edited May 7, 2013 by I00thlurker

[CrazyCanadian24]

I think it's worth stating this, since people seem to be missing the point.

The problem isn't "Rollers exist, do away with them". Enemy variety is good.

It's "Rollers exist, and there exist absolutely zero ways to mitigate their stun in any fashion. This needs to be fixed."

 

Frankly I think it would be better to just replace the rollers with another unit. That way you get the best of both worlds: people who want them removed get their wish, but people who don't want them to go because it would impact enemy variety will be fine because there will still be variety.

 

I was thinking about what might replace them, and I've made a forum thread for that exact purpose, feel free to take a look: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/40911-discussionconceptidea-grineer-elites/

[Salganos]

I'm of the opinion that stagger-locking is a bit excessive in the game in general, in both directions.

 

In the enemy-to-player direction, rollers are probably the biggest contributor to that.

 

They move so damn fast, they're unpredictable, they're tiny, AND THEY STUNLOCK YOU. The stunlock is the problem as much as the speed and the hitbox size.

 

There shouldn't BE stunlock in this game. If you want enemies to interrupt animations, fine, but we should be able to cancel the "stagger" animation by starting an action of our own. So an enemy can knock you out of your charge attack / skill cast, but you aren't standing there reeling, you immediately start doing something else. 

 

Exactly.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Salganos

[Tsukinoki]

I'm of the opinion that stagger-locking is a bit excessive in the game in general, in both directions.

 

In the enemy-to-player direction, rollers are probably the biggest contributor to that.

If you look at every other enemy with stuns/knockdowns they are either:

A) Much easier to avoid

B) Cant stun/stagger-lock you indefinately

Any of the grineer heavy units ground slams allow you far more than enough time to stand back up and get some distance.  I have yet to see them use it more than once.  While I do kick myself if I am hit by it I know I can get away so it doesnt annoy me as much.

Shockwave MOAs have a large wind up to their attack and stand there motionless for a while before stomping, giving you time to avoid it and a simple jump will clear the knock down.  The Jackal and Hyena dont give such a big warning but they do telegraph it a bit and dont spamm it endlessly barring an AI glitch.

Rollers stun/stagger you on touch, and if you are unlocky and are caught in a corner with one of them on you then you might as well wait to die.  No other enemy, outside of toxic ancients, punish you for touching them.  No other enemy can stun-lock you in groups of 2 to 3.  No other enemy can clealy MISS hitting you and still cause you to stagger.

The only upside to rollers is that they are easy to bug/glitch so that they can be taken care of but that's almost cheating.

I do also agree that having players stun-lock a boss should also be prevented.  While it works its abusing a game mechanic.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Galmech40k]

I personally feel they are fine.  Sure they're incredibly annoying... but that makes things interesting.  I've wiped rooms full of insane amounts of Grineer.  But when you throw rollers in there I worry.  And that makes it exciting.  I've found ways of outsmarting them and learning when to and how to dodge them and make them chase me while I gun them down cause they're rolling in a strait line.

 

I think they're a fun challenge and I hope they don't get nerfed...

my 2 cents anyways...

[CrazyCanadian24]

I personally feel they are fine.  Sure they're incredibly annoying... but that makes things interesting.  I've wiped rooms full of insane amounts of Grineer.  But when you throw rollers in there I worry.  And that makes it exciting.  I've found ways of outsmarting them and learning when to and how to dodge them and make them chase me while I gun them down cause they're rolling in a strait line.

 

I think they're a fun challenge and I hope they don't get nerfed...

my 2 cents anyways...

 

I've just about had it with people defending rollers. I don't care who you are, even if you work at DE, there is no excuse for defending rollers. They are horribly broken, pathetically cheep, and just downright shouldn't be in the game at all.

[AndryB94]

What happened to this thread:
Page 1: "Hey, let's throw in some ideas."
Page 2: "Well, more ideas, some discussion."
Page 3-10: World War III between "Rollers suck, remove them" and "Rollers are good, keep them" with people stating they don't want them to be nerfed.

Damn it guys. Some of you are doing a good discussion job but this is hurting my eyes.

1) If you're saying "rollers suck" then either find a way to change them, or to replace them. Just wanting to remove them will NOT solve anything and, in fact, I am against it.

2) If you're saying "rollers r guud, but u sux" at least remove the last part and be respectful of other people. Only because they don't like something you like doesn't mean they're bad.

I'll state it for the nth time, I don't want to nerf rollers.

[Qeveren]

Remove 'em and come up with something new.  I'm tired of the "NOPE" mechanic that keeps creeping into the game; stop preventing me from doing stuff - do stuff back to me instead.

[Baigan]

I just wish they were bigger, or that Jump AoE would knock em on their sides...

[Soulfighter]

LEARN TO AIM

[AndryB94]

LEARN TO AIM

You missed the whole point of the thread and ten pages of discussion... Didn't you.

Edited May 8, 2013 by AndryB94

[VelenoHargreaves]

LEARN TO AIM

Where is your argument? Just that? Learn to aim? Really man? Let me put you in a room with 5 rollers, no energy and let's see if you manage to kill then, WITHOUT ANY LEDGES OR PLACE TO HIDE OR GET UP TO IT!