Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[Nedwin]

I could understand if some newbies vote to remove it because it's hard to kill on first few days of gameplay. But not bunch of hunters/grand masters who really can't aim/be creative to kill them.

@VelenoHargreaves let me place you in a room with 5 disruptors and we will see how long will you stay alive.

[Worira]

I could understand if some newbies vote to remove it because it's hard to kill on first few days of gameplay. But not bunch of hunters/grand masters who really can't aim/be creative to kill them.

@VelenoHargreaves let me place you in a room with 5 disruptors and we will see how long will you stay alive.

 

Man, it's almost like player skill has nothing to do with the fact that rollers are a terrible enemy.

[Tsukinoki]

I could understand if some newbies vote to remove it because it's hard to kill on first few days of gameplay. But not bunch of hunters/grand masters who really can't aim/be creative to kill them.

@VelenoHargreaves let me place you in a room with 5 disruptors and we will see how long will you stay alive.

Its not that they are "hard" to kill.  It is that they are annoying, cheap, unfun, and just a terrible design for an enemy.

And I would prefer to be in a room with 5 disruptors compared to a room with 5 rollers any day.

[Nedwin]

Man, it's almost like player skill has nothing to do with the fact that rollers are a terrible enemy.

What? What is then called skill? To tear apart all light, medium, heavy, boss grineer, their base and ENTIRE SOL SYSTEM but be afraid of ROLLERS! Isn't it ridiculous? To be afraid of one-shot enemy?! There are so many ways to evade them, even if there is 10 assault teams. Shade sentinel = no afraid of rollers anymore.

You can afraid of rollers if you have 75 hp lvl 0 loki on lvl 35 mission. Looks like everyone who against rollers uses all unranked gear on end-game missions...

Edited May 8, 2013 by Nedwin

[Mietz]

Climb on a fracking box.

[Worira]

Climb on a fracking box.

 

QUALITY GAME DESIGN

[Zinn]

While I'm fundementally against taking control away from the player, I don't think rollers are nearly as big of a problem as they used to be. These days their hitbox work, they have no HP to speak of, frame powers work on them and so on. I think there's still a bug in terms of jumping over them but other than that, they're not hard to deal with anymore.

[RealityMachina]

Climb on a fracking box.

If an enemy that's not meant to be an unstoppable juggernaut is so poorly designed in such a way that the most effective strategy is to take advantage of AI loopholes so you don't have to worry about dying, getting stunlocked, etc in the process of taking it out, it's a S#&$ty enemy.

Edited May 8, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Tsukinoki]

Climb on a fracking box.

When the best solution is "Abuse their AI" they need to re-think the enemies.  And YES it is abusing their AI because you hop on a box and most of the time they just stop moving and sit there until you shoot them.

When the best method of dealing with an enemy is hopping onto a table there is something wrong with the enemy, especially in a game like this.

@Nedwin

As I have said before: They are not that "hard".  They are annoying, frustrating, unfun and cheap.

I can handle rollers unless I get unlucky and get stun-locked, or worse am trapped against a box as a roller sits on my feet rolling forwards and infinitely stunning me until I die.

They use cheap tactics of taking away player control.  They are just not fun to fight.  I would prefer going up against any other enemy in the game in place of rollers because any other enemy would be infinitely more entertaining.

[Nedwin]

When the best solution is "Abuse their AI" they need to re-think the enemies.  And YES it is abusing their AI because you hop on a box and most of the time they just stop moving and sit there until you shoot them.

When the best method of dealing with an enemy is hopping onto a table there is something wrong with the enemy, especially in a game like this.

@Nedwin

As I have said before: They are not that "hard".  They are annoying, frustrating, unfun and cheap.

I can handle rollers unless I get unlucky and get stun-locked, or worse am trapped against a box as a roller sits on my feet rolling forwards and infinitely stunning me until I die.

They use cheap tactics of taking away player control.  They are just not fun to fight.  I would prefer going up against any other enemy in the game in place of rollers because any other enemy would be infinitely more entertaining.

So we need to make 2 more themes: about Toxic/Disruptor Ancients.

They are too not fun to fight, take your hp very fast.

And it's very fun when you have boosted power on nyx and ninja disruptor take all of it in 1 sec. So cheap. Not fun to fight. Obviously annoying. Best strategy against toxic - run and shoot. (Not entertaining)

Same with shockwave MOA. 3 of them = guaranteered stunlock.

Let's make couple of nerf topics to remove all enemy who not just shoot you.

I am sure that the game would be very fun and competitive if there is only shooting enemy.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Nedwin

[RealityMachina]

So we need to make 2 more themes: about Toxic/Disruptor Ancients.

They are too not fun to fight, take your hp very fast.

And it's very fun when you have boosted power on nyx and ninja disruptor take all of it in 1 sec. So cheap. Not fun to fight. Obviously annoying. Best strategy against toxic - run and shoot. (Not entertaining)

Same with shockwave MOA. 3 of them = guaranteered stunlock.

Let's make couple of nerf topics to remove all enemy who not just shoot you.

Or we could do the non-strawman thing and try making suggestions as to why exactly these enemies can be frustrating and what can be done to fix these problems without reducing enemy variety.

[Tsukinoki]

So we need to make 2 more themes: about Toxic/Disruptor Ancients.

They are too not fun to fight, take your hp very fast.

And it's very fun when you have boosted power on nyx and ninja disruptor take all of it in 1 sec. So cheap. Not fun to fight. Obviously annoying. Best strategy against toxic - run and shoot. (Not entertaining)

Same with shockwave MOA. 3 of them = guaranteered stunlock.

Let's make couple of nerf topics to remove all enemy who not just shoot you.

I am sure that the game would be very fun and competitive if there is only shooting enemy.

Please stop strawmanning the argument.

Disrupters are fair and fun to fight.  You have to be careful but they dont have any overly cheap tactics and even if you get poisoned or have your shields and energy drained at least you have a real chance to get away from them.

3 Shockwave MOA will not stunlock you.  Sure they can knock you down 3 times in a row (usually less because some will use it while you are in midair from the first one) then it takes them *much* longer to be able to do it again than it does for you to get up and shoot them.

Rollers can sit on your feet if you are against a box and you will stagger non-stop until you die with no way out of it.  That is cheap and not fair to the player.

[Nedwin]

Please stop strawmanning the argument.

Disrupters are fair and fun to fight.  You have to be careful but they dont have any overly cheap tactics and even if you get poisoned or have your shields and energy drained at least you have a real chance to get away from them.

3 Shockwave MOA will not stunlock you.  Sure they can knock you down 3 times in a row (usually less because some will use it while you are in midair from the first one) then it takes them *much* longer to be able to do it again than it does for you to get up and shoot them.

Rollers can sit on your feet if you are against a box and you will stagger non-stop until you die with no way out of it.  That is cheap and not fair to the player.

How about stealth warframe/ Shade sentinel?

[Tsukinoki]

How about stealth warframe/ Shade sentinel?

So the two ways of dealing with rollers:

A) Abuse the AI by hopping on a box

B) Use infinite stealth and ghost through level

What about everyone that doesn't have a shade or invisiblity skills?

What should they do?  GIve up on the game because an enemy that is somewhat common nearly requires them to avoid pure frustration?

What should a stealth frame do if they are out of energy and cant afford a shade/is having a hard time farming the mats to build one?

If the only recourse is: "Use this specific gear or else" then there is a problem with the enemy.

You aren't making your argument much stronger you know...

[Nedwin]

So the two ways of dealing with rollers:

A) Abuse the AI by hopping on a box

B) Use infinite stealth and ghost through level

What about everyone that doesn't have a shade or invisiblity skills?

What should they do?  GIve up on the game because an enemy that is somewhat common nearly requires them to avoid pure frustration?

What should a stealth frame do if they are out of energy and cant afford a shade/is having a hard time farming the mats to build one?

If the only recourse is: "Use this specific gear or else" then there is a problem with the enemy.

You aren't making your argument much stronger you know...

.....how about you? You have problems with rollers, not me. I dont want them to be removed because of 20 people. Remove rollers is to accept that you are too weak even for this simple enemy... you can complain that "It's just annoying" and "Its bad enemy".

Use the specific gear -YES use it. This game is about a gear. Or use tenno powers.

[Tsukinoki]

.....how about you? You have problems with rollers, not me. I dont want them to be removed because of 20 people. Remove rollers is to accept that you are too weak even for this simple enemy... you can complain that "It's just annoying" and "Its bad enemy".

Use the specific gear -YES use it. This game is about a gear. Or use tenno powers.

Im not saying to remove them flat out.

Im saying that they should FIX the stun mechanic so that you cant be infinately stunned.

And so you're saying that people without shade or invisibility should just not do higher level grineer missions at all because rollers can show up?  That's not a solution.  Nor does it show that they are good enemies.

How would you feel if they made it so that a certain boss can only be hurt by say the beginning rifle you start with.  Nothing else works on it.  That certainly fits your argument of "Use the gear" and that its OK to require invis or shade to deal with rollers without it being a frustration.

Also its not just 20 people, there is a poll on the warframe wiki.  290 people want it changed/removed while only 51 want to keep it as it is.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Nedwin]

Im not saying to remove them flat out.

Im saying that they should FIX the stun mechanic so that you cant be infinately stunned.

And so you're saying that people without shade or invisibility should just not do higher level grineer missions at all because rollers can show up?  That's not a solution.  Nor does it show that they are good enemies.

Also its not just 20 people, there is a poll on the warframe wiki.  290 people want it changed/removed while only 51 want to keep it as it is.

 You afraid of rollers? Or you want me to say that 4 people cannot deal with 1 roller? They are not good enemies they are simple enemies you could simply destroy. Annoying or not they are easily destroyed by anything.

Its so unrealy "hard" to aim+shoot. You got stunlocked?  You have 4 revives.

Your team can revive you. Trinity can heal you.

There are 1000 solutions how to avoid/evade/survive rollers.

If you got stunlocked - why did you go to a corner? Why not run 20 meters forward and shoot it?

Rollers on Kela de Thayl boss makes your team work together to defeat her. What if remove them/nerf? You always think about "Don't care about anything but myself, just nerf it." Your 300 people are those who want to make game easy as CoD with no enemy who can give you a competition. Rollers make you aim. Too hard for you? Go play tetris there is no aim at all...

Edited May 8, 2013 by Nedwin

[Tsukinoki]

 You afraid of rollers? Or you want me to say that 4 people cannot deal with 1 roller? They are not good enemies they are simple enemies you could simply destroy. Annoying or not they are easily destroyed by anything.

Its so unrealy "hard" to aim+shoot. You got stunlocked?  You have 4 revives.

Your team can revive you. Trinity can heal you.

There are 1000 solutions how to avoid/evade/survive rollers.

If you got stunlocked - why did you go to a corner? Why not run 20 meters forward and shoot it?

Rollers on Kela de Thayl boss makes your team work together to defeat her. What if remove them/nerf? You always think about "Don't care about anything but myself, just nerf it." Your 300 people are those who want to make game easy as CoD with no enemy who can give you a competition. Rollers make you aim. Too hard for you? Go play tetris there is no aim at all...

And how many times do I have to repeat a single point: they are NOT hard.  They are frustating.

Huge difference.

Im in a skype call with the group I am playing with and cant always hear a roller.  If I get trapped against a box I cant do anything to sit there and wait to die or hope my team mates can kill it before I suffer too much damage.  I also play alone quite often because there is a solo mode.  I also play with only 1 or 2 other people because of internet connection slowness.  Not everyone plays in full groups, or easily can.

1 roller isn't anything.  3 to 5 can easily stun lock you once they get started.  If they add a diminishing return on stuns, both enemy generated AND player generated it would be better.  The reason is that you cant be stunned forever AND you cant stun a boss forever.  Would fix quite a few issues.

I've been stunlocked in the middle of a room as well, or right as I open a door.  And its not just me that is having problems.

Apparently though you are too wrapped up in yourself and needing the game to be annoying/frustrating instead of fun that you can't care to listen to the other side or even read their posts.

[m1st3r_pr0per]

They get really annoying when it is like 5 of them around you. They don't even let you shoot them. You just get stunned every second.

[Tsukinoki]

They get really annoying when it is like 5 of them around you. They don't even let you shoot them. You just get stunned every second.

Exactly.  You dont have time to aim let alone move.

And if you were against a box when you were stunned then its GG because you wont be able to move out of the way as it infinately staggers you by rolling against your legs until you die.

The best solution is fixing the stuns.  Add diminishing returns to each stun and then a period of being unable to be stunned at all and the biggest problem with them goes away and they can still "punish you" for letting them get too close.  It also prevents cheesing of bosses by stunlocking them.

[Bennyworld]

I love them rollers.

They just want some love...

[Nedwin]

No energy, no sentinel, no teammates. Got trapped. Die. And you can revive 4 times.

And this happened once. And this happened to you. Enough to nerf them? No.

 

Ok. So maybe I should create topic about nerf Disruptors because one got 500+ of my energy? 1 mistake = 20 energy balls, all shields and revive point? FAIR? No. And I don't care it happened once and beleive me I will get 300+ people who want to nerf them too. Just because people want all gear/weapons/frames for ease.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Nedwin

[MJ12]

No energy, no sentinel, no teammates. Got trapped. Die. And you can revive 4 times.

And this happened once. And this happened to you. Enough to nerf them? No.

 

Ok. So maybe I should create topic about nerf Disruptors because one got 500+ of my energy? 1 mistake = 20 energy balls, all shields and revive point? FAIR? No. And I don't care it happened once and beleive me I will get 300+ people who want to nerf them too. Just because people want all gear/weapons/frames for ease.

 

You know what's hilarious? Disruptors are also bad enemy design. Well okay, I partially lie. They're bad energy design because of the current energy system. If you ran on cooldowns/your energy naturally regenerated at a moderate pace disruptors would be more or less utterly fine. Comparing a bad enemy with another bad enemy does not prove it's a good enemy.

[Tsukinoki]

@Nedwin
Are you aware of how ridiculous your strawmanning is making your side appear?

So you want to limit higher level Grineer areas to where it requires a shade or invisibility skill just to avoid an enemy that only serves to frustrate players without adding any real difficulty except for cheap shots?

DE needs to rethink an enemy when the 2 viable tactics for dealing with it without getting frustrated are cheese with a box or cheese it with invisibility.  That just shows that the enemy was poorly designed from the start.

As for comparing rollers to disrupters, you couldn't be further off.  With a disrupter you can *easily* see it, and at quite a distance.  You know its comming and you can safely melee them if you time dodge rolls and stuff around it to avoid its hits.  With rollers they can surprise you if your busy with other enemies and dont hear it causing you to stagger.  By itself a roller isn't that annoying or bad.  But when you are staggered *immeadiately* after recovering by a second roller and then it just repeats until you die it gets annoying and frustrating.

Disrupters steal your energy and shields.  But do they lock you in place indefinately until you die or they bug out?  No.  Can you get away from them easily after being hit, even in groups of 3 to 4?  Yes.
SO they are much more fun to deal with the challenge the present rather than an enemy that if you get 3 or 4 on you then there is a decent chance you'll be reduced to a spectator watching as you stagger around until you die.

[Sniktch]

Solutions proposed so far:

 

1: Diminishing returns on stun/stagger, most likely via a self-stacking resistance buff.

 

2: Fix rollers so their aura only turns on when they use their actual attack - if they're leaping, they can stun/stagger you.  If they zip by, they can't.

 

Either works, as far as I can tell - though the "diminishing return" effect also solves a few issues with Infested, and is likely the best long-term solution especially if applied to the enemies as well - no more eternally locking down Ancients with melee for us, either.