Petition To Remove Frame And Weapon Slot Limits Or Offer A Free Way To Get Them

[Amistyrja]

Are we talking about mastery (the bar on the top left in system select) or weapon mastery (weapon XP level)?

The bar at the top left of course =) 

[Mietz]

The bar at the top left of course =) 

 

ah ok nvm then

 

since i was thinking of weapon masteries

[Cakes]

Selling items loses you the mastery you earned on them which means you can't rank up.  F2p players can't get past rank 4.  If they ever plan to flesh out the mastery system to be more than a small handful of unlocks, they're going to have to add some free slots.  Also, asking players to sacrifice something they have poured hours upon hours into in order to use new content is incredibly bad design.

 

You've been here long enough to be expected to know that selling Rank 30 gear does not make you lose the account mastery points gained from said gear.

 

As for the "sacrifice" associated with selling gear that has been ranked to 30 for the sake of master points, taking a quick look at my profile I see a lot of weapons with 450,000 ~ 500,000 xp; indicating that once they reached Rank 30, they got shelved or got sold. Same phenomenon when browsing through the profiles on my friends and clan list. Aside for the sake of collecting, selling those weapons to make room for new ones isn't that big a sacrfice as their "job" of granting account mastery has reached fruition.

 

Will additional slots help alleviate collector's anxiety? Yes.

Should there be additional non-Platinum slots made available in the game? Yes. New content that adds new warframes/weapons to the game makes the starting free slots seem less than sufficient given the increasing pool of variety. More free slots should be made available in some fashion to keep up with the growing aresenal of warframes and weapons we are getting with the updates from DE.

 

It doesn't matter what the truth of the matter is, if a F2P player believes they are content-restricted and coerced into buying Platinum, then that belief becomes their truth. Trying to convince them otherwise by pointing out what they can do in their current situation is a chore and usually will not change their mind.

[Venarge]

These debates here are older than the universe. If the threads before that made the same demands to a game that doesnt cost anything havent made a change, this thread wont be any different. People say remove this remove that, but OP didnt even came up with an idea how to compensate the loss of income that would be created during something like that.
Like I said. Some free slots are a great idea. The slots for progression thing(mastery) is a great way to reward players for playing. And I really think that 4-5 extra free slots for frames are actually enough.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Venarge

[SoulEchelon]

Selling items loses you the mastery you earned on them which means you can't rank up.  F2p players can't get past rank 4.

 

You've been here as long as I have. Perhaps your wiring crossed when you posted this, but this statement is totally false.

 

Here's the rundown for everyone confused by all this:

 

Selling a weapon or frame you have ranked will NOT make you lose ANY of your overall mastery rank. That's the rank at the top left of your screen that lets you use certain rank-locked weapons like the Gorgon or HEK. If you're Mastery Rank 5 with 100K mastery points, and then sell your Level 30 Braton or Level 25 Saryn, you will still be Mastery Rank 5 with 100K Mastery Points.

 

Selling a weapon or frame you have ranked, and then buying it back from the market or re-crafting it WILL NOT retain ANY of its levels. It will be back to level 0, or "Unranked".

Edited May 3, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Klaww]

 

This is a common and quite stupid argument in f2p games.  What people like you don't understand is that the game needs to be able to maintain a large player base, and to do that the long run, f2p players have to feel that they're not getting screwed.  A high turn over rate on players won't allow them to maintain the large player base they need.

I find it amusing you call it a stupid argument when you yourself are creating a straw man fallacy from scratch. Geese prove yourself stupid. You forget your whining, "claiming" that everyone will feel like they are screwed and leave. What is actually happening is a few whiners crying on a topic because they wont dish out some cash or use common sense, you fail to understand you START with 50 platinum. Honestly its a ridiculous thing to say that tons of people are going to leave based on your own opinion. Its also ridiculous to say a load of people are going to leave because they lack a extra slot for their inventory its just downright stupid, especially when they can get another slot very easily. A slot, I might add that one doesn't need. You have more than enough slots. Your also lying saying selling a weapon loses you mastery rank, thats just completely false. Stop asking for everything to be handed to you. Next thing they'll start whining about is not being able to get colors without the market, geese.

 

Spoiled Players is more like it

Edited May 3, 2013 by Klaww

[Thor]

Namecalling and throwing around insults (Whiner, spoiled, elitist, etc.) does not strengthen your argument. If you cannot make your point without resorting to those tactics, rethink your point.

[MagnumKnight]

Selling items loses you the mastery you earned on them which means you can't rank up.  F2p players can't get past rank 4.  If they ever plan to flesh out the mastery system to be more than a small handful of unlocks, they're going to have to add some free slots.  Also, asking players to sacrifice something they have poured hours upon hours into in order to use new content is incredibly bad design. 

 

 

 

This is a common and quite stupid argument in f2p games.  What people like you don't understand is that the game needs to be able to maintain a large player base, and to do that the long run, f2p players have to feel that they're not getting screwed.  A high turn over rate on players won't allow them to maintain the large player base they need.

im an F2P player and i got to rank FIVE before i even spent money to get plats for slots and a frame. your argument is invalid with F2P players cant get past rank four. F2P players who cant learn to make a sacrifice cant get past rank 4. also? there's no reason to worry about mastery rank beyond four currently.

[Klaww]

Namecalling and throwing around insults (Whiner, spoiled, elitist, etc.) does not strengthen your argument. If you cannot make your point without resorting to those tactics, rethink your point.

Resorting to demagoguing few words in someones post is rather missing the point altogether. It doesn't strengthen your own argument and you clearly missed the center of the post.

[SoulEchelon]

Resorting to demagoguing few words in someones post is rather missing the point altogether. It doesn't strengthen your own argument and you clearly missed the center of the post.

 

I don't think he was arguing a point. Note the Community Moderator title. His post might just be a warning to simmer down the insults. At least, that's what I got out of that post. But either way, I do agree with your earlier post.

Edited May 3, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Aggh]

I find it amusing you call it a stupid argument when you yourself are creating a straw man fallacy from scratch. Geese prove yourself stupid. You forget your whining, "claiming" that everyone will feel like they are screwed and leave. What is actually happening is a few whiners crying on a topic because they wont dish out some cash or use common sense, you fail to understand you START with 50 platinum. Honestly its a ridiculous thing to say that tons of people are going to leave based on your own opinion. Its also ridiculous to say a load of people are going to leave because they lack a extra slot for their inventory its just downright stupid, especially when they can get another slot very easily. A slot, I might add that one doesn't need. You have more than enough slots. Your also lying saying selling a weapon loses you mastery rank, thats just completely false. Stop asking for everything to be handed to you. Next thing they'll start whining about is not being able to get colors without the market, geese.

 

Spoiled Players is more like it

It's already happened in other games.  If you slow progression down to a halt or make f2p options not viable enough people just stop playing.  Blacklight retribution just did this with their rental system and they're peaking at around 500-1000 concurrent players less than they have been doing for over a year, which btw is ~10k less than the numbers they had when they launched on steam.  These kinds of numbers don't last except in the case of well established franchises.  It would be nice if warframe could be an exception to this, but that's unlikely.

 

Right now warframe isn't feeling this because the game is new and fresh, we're at a bit of lull in between the release of big name titles, and not many players have hit the progression wall yet.  But once people start filling up their slots and maxing everything out and stuff like GTAV, Assassins creed black flag, COD: Ghost etc. etc. are competing for their interest, the slot system is going to begin to really hurt.  Combined with the many persisting flaws (which admittedly the devs are working on) the game is going to have a much harder time maintaing free players.

 

I only said that you lost mastery because it did do that a while back when I sold some weapons.  If it's not doing that any more then that's good.  It still means that the game is making players make the decision between getting something new (that will obviously respark their interest in the game) and sacrificing something that they have poured hours of their time grinding with.  This is not how successful games reward players for putting time into their game.  Rewarding players for playing is one of the basics of game design and progression.  If players feel like they're being punished for progressing, they're obviously not going to be very interested in progessing (ie playing the game).

 

Btw, I have all the frames (supercharged) and 4 pages (most of them supercharged) of weapons.  I've put money into the game because I like it.  I'm worried more about losing people to play with than whether or not I have to pay to play the game.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Aggh

[Klaww]

How are the players being punished in any way? The only punishment I can see that might be legit is the recent nerfs even then that has been addressed for a fix in a future patch. I really dont see how not being able to have over 9000 inventory slots inhibits your play, you really do get a ton and you still get the platinum from the start, and its very cheap.. The only time I can see someone needing that many slots is if they want to max every gun in the game and when someone does that its definantly not for using it, its for rank points which means you might as well sell it after rank 30

 

Honestly, Blacklight was a terrible game. The only game I can really compare this one to is vindictus and thats only mildly, they have a load of differences.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Klaww

[Thor]

Resorting to demagoguing few words in someones post is rather missing the point altogether. It doesn't strengthen your own argument and you clearly missed the center of the post.

 

I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your argument. I'm asking you to be civil. Think you can do that for me?

[Firebat86]

Actually no, if F2P players feel at a disadvantage they will actually quit your game, because they don't feel like they have a chance against people who play.

 

If your argument was true then most F2P games would sell power to make the F2P gamer feel at a disadvantage in order to make him pay.

 

In reality it's the other way around, if you make the F2P player feel like he has a disadvantage he will most likely quit your game and play something else, which gives him equal footing to paying players.

 

A lot of players will do that, especially with the recent rise in F2P games that offer equality, like for example Blacklight Retribution.

 

Also vanity items being purchasable only with money is actually a valid way to make an F2P game, there are numerous examples like Dota 2, League of Legends and TF2. In all of them you can get every advantage a paying player has and a F2P player has no disadvantage over a paying one.

 

With the slots that i proposed, it would make a F2P player not feel like he has a too big of a disadvantage over a paying player and if he ever sells a warframe or weapon that he regrets, he knows that all his time spent grinding for the weapon the first time would not have been in vane because he can get it easier afterwards.

 

And just as an afterthought, League of Legends probably had less players when it went open beta or even when it was released (i was there) than Warframe currently has, but it succeded because it had a good F2P model. In comparison, in the future it will lose some players because champions are many and getting them will turn very tedious and you can't even pay a large sum to get them all. Dota 2 will actually profit from this, because players have all the characters unlocked from the get-go and you only pay for skins or similar items (different announcers are actually quite cool). If i were to start one right now from scratch it would definetly be Dota 2, because i wouldn't want to grind 1000 hours just to get all the heroes in LoL.

 

How are you at a disadvantage? You can still get EVERY frame and weapon in the game.  So because you can't have them all AT THE SAME TIME that's a disadvantage?  A F2P model needs to have some incentive for players to pay for something, and right now since you can play and get everything that is in the game that's not cosmetic, slots are a good incentive.  They aren't even that expensive...

[Inez]

1. Inventory slots actually literally take up the limited server space. This is one reason why they ask you to pay for them (two weapon slots costs less than a dollar by themselves. That's really not alot of money, whereas I've seen other F2P games force you to pay far, far more.)

 

 

 

Yes, literally speaking, inventory slots take up server space.  But that's like saying an individual grain of sand takes up space on a beach.  Its not a realistic argument.

[Klaww]

lol@ 2 previous posts disappearing.

 

 

 

Yes, literally speaking, inventory slots take up server space.  But that's like saying an individual grain of sand takes up space on a beach.  Its not a realistic argument.

Yeah pretty much, but it still comes into play that one doesn't need these slots. Honestly when i first came to this game I thought wow I only get 4 warframe slots by default? its obvious why, I have 1 spot open and only use 1 90 percent of the time. (total of 3 warframes) The same goes for inventory pretty much (except you obviously get way more slots)

[Aggh]

How are the players being punished in any way? The only punishment I can see that might be legit is the recent nerfs even then that has been addressed for a fix in a future patch. I really dont see how not being able to have over 9000 inventory slots inhibits your play, you really do get a ton and you still get the platinum from the start, and its very cheap.. The only time I can see someone needing that many slots is if they want to max every gun in the game and when someone does that its definantly not for using it, its for rank points which means you might as well sell it after rank 30

 

Honestly, Blacklight was a terrible game. The only game I can really compare this one to is vindictus and thats only mildly, they have a load of differences.

Asking people to give up something they've put hours into leveling up is essentially punishing the player for wanting to get something new.

 

Different weapons and frames are better for different missions and factions.  I regularly use all of my weapons and frames (with the exception of ember who is just bad and not fun to play).

 

I suppose ps2 is a terrible game to right?  They're down 22k concurrent users since they launched on steam.  The f2p grind has been a long standing issue with that game among other things.

 

 

How are you at a disadvantage? You can still get EVERY frame and weapon in the game.  So because you can't have them all AT THE SAME TIME that's a disadvantage?  A F2P model needs to have some incentive for players to pay for something, and right now since you can play and get everything that is in the game that's not cosmetic, slots are a good incentive.  They aren't even that expensive...

Lets put it this way.  Say someone wants to get the next new shiny thing and they sell their hek.  What would that mean for the average free player if they wanted their hek again?  It would mean 25k credits (admittedly not much with changes to credit earning), possibly grinding for alloy plate and neuroids, and 24 hours build time.  And then if they want it to be effective in higher level content?  Grind the F*** out of kappa or the like til you get it to level 30 again.  And hope and pray for another potato alert if you get it,  possibly grind for the gallium and control module needed, 25k credits and  24 hours build time.  That is a lot of time and effort for someone who isn't necessarilly as invested in the game as you or I.  It's not unreasonable for them to just move on to a different game that doesn't ask them to grind the same missions over and over again and give up items every time they want something new.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Aggh

[MrSnipyCat]

i like the way it is, 3€ can buy u some slots, plus devs need money :3

[Klaww]

Asking people to give up something they've put hours into leveling up is essentially punishing the player for wanting to get something new.

 

Different weapons and frames are better for different missions and factions.  I regularly use all of my weapons and frames (with the exception of ember who is just bad and not fun to play).

Just because a player put hours into leveling something doesn't mean they like it. I leveled my lex to max and hated it, sold it, rebought it and its at level 6 at the moment. Generally at about rank 3 or about rank 3.5 a player has pretty much picked their style of gameplay and weapon. Which means they dont necessarily need all the extra slots unless they go overboard. Mine for example while i truly loved the gorgon has evolved into the grakata for a speedy build. If you want to solely be free to play you can make a secondary account, from my understanding of the terms of agreement its only liable for termination if you misuse your account trade it,sell it, etc. Or if you do not log into it for a period of time. If you really do use all those frames and weapons, the power costs alone irl exceed alot of costs for plat. Honestly just throw in some plat if you have invested that much time into it. Free to play games are meant to suck in general thats why most p2p games win, we are just fortunate to actually have found one that doesn't and uses a system of "saving time" for their market rather than forcing you to buy things.

 

All in all is this really worth the time debating for hours at a day about or is it just better to spend a few plat if you really want some slots.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Klaww

[Aggh]

i like the way it is, 3€ can buy u some slots, plus devs need money :3

The funny thing about this is that they devs have already talked about adding slots in the mastery rank system.  OH GOD THEY'RE GOING TO BANKRUPT THEMSELVES GIVING AWAY A COUPLE SLOTS (40 cents a piece; the beauty of the "they're cheap" argument is that the devs wouldn't lose much money giving people a handful of slots) EVERY NOW AND THEN.  THE SKY IS FALLING!

 

Just because a player put hours into leveling something doesn't mean they like it. I leveled my lex to max and hated it, sold it, rebought it and its at level 6 at the moment. Generally at about rank 3 or about rank 3.5 a player has pretty much picked their style of gameplay and weapon. Mine for example while i truly loved the gorgon has evolved into the grakata for a speedy build. If you want to solely be free to play you can make a secondary account, from my understanding of the terms of agreement its only liable for termination if you misuse your account trade it,sell it, etc. Or if you do not log into it for a period of time. If you really do use all those frames and weapons, the power costs alone exceed alot of costs for plat. Honestly just throw in some plat if you have invested that much time into it. Free to play games are meant to suck in general thats why most p2p games win, we are just fortunate to actually have found one that doesn't and uses a system of "saving time" for their market rather than forcing you to buy things.

If you need to use alt accounts to play a game properly, something is wrong.

 

Just because you do that, doesn't mean everyone else does.  Most people in this world don't like giving up stuff they worked for.

 

Warframe is one of many games that uses the grind or pay system.  The fact that you're implying that this is uncommon is hilarious.  The only real difference is that they've tacked on a slot system despite the fact that frames and weapons don't have nearly the breadth of customization or actual gameplay depth in games where such a slot system might be justifiable.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Aggh

[Klaww]

Honestly when you compare games like GTA IV as well its kind of pointless due to the fact you actually have to spend money on that game to play it firsthand while this game you dont have to spend a dime you just download, make a account, and tadah

[Aggh]

Honestly when you compare games like GTA IV as well its kind of pointless due to the fact you actually have to spend money on that game to play it firsthand while this game you dont have to spend a dime you just download, make a account, and tadah

People would rather spend money on a well known brand than play a no name game they can get for free.  People have been waiting for GTA V.  People might have heard of Warframe.  Big name games always hurt f2p game's player numbers, this means that to hold on to good player numbers, f2p games have to not F*** up.  Also, remember that warframe is a PC game.  It's not like PC players won't pirate games.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Aggh

[Klaww]

The funny thing about this is that they devs have already talked about adding slots in the mastery rank system.  OH GOD THEY'RE GOING TO BANKRUPT THEMSELVES GIVING AWAY A COUPLE SLOTS (40 cents a piece; the beauty of the "they're cheap" argument is that the devs wouldn't lose much money giving people a handful of slots) EVERY NOW AND THEN.  THE SKY IS FALLING!

 

If you need to use alt accounts to play a game properly, something is wrong.

 

Just because you do that, doesn't mean everyone else does.  Most people in this world don't like giving up stuff they worked for.

 

Warframe is one of many games that uses the grind or pay system.  The fact that you're implying that this is uncommon is hilarious.  The only real difference is that they've tacked on a slot system despite the fact that frames and weapons don't have nearly the breadth of customization or actual gameplay depth in games where such a slot system might be justifiable.

I never implied that, please don't misinterpret me. I also never said I do that, I was just throwing out something you could do to render a alternate solution to your issue. While it may be a issue in your scenario it feels like your treating it like a game destroying issue so if its that darn important that one cant spend a few plat why not take that alternate route. 

 

 

 

People would rather spend money on a well known brand than play a no name game they can get for free.  People have been waiting for GTA V.  People might have heard of Warframe.  Big name games always hurt f2p game's player numbers.  Also, remember that warframe is a PC game.  It's not like PC players won't pirate games.

Which was my whole point about F2P games except for the "no name part". Most people spend money on games they enjoy thats the truth of the matter free to play or not if they enjoy it, they will dish out some cash generally for a few extra cosmetic/bonuses. You should be happy its actually F2P and a dang good one at that (which means itll survive most likely it already has from a few titles like BioShock Infinite). If the illegal act of pirating is being talked about in this thread then im even going to bother rebuddling. Pirate bay is just a red herring fallacy, a distraction rather. Just yeah

Edited May 4, 2013 by Klaww

[Bakim0n0]

Warframe slots are $1.80

they are fine the way they are.

[Aggh]

I never implied that, please don't misinterpret me. I also never said I do that, I was just throwing out something you could do to render a alternate solution to your issue. While it may be a issue it feels like your treating it like a game destroying issue so if its that darn important that one cant spend a few plat why not take that alternate route.

 

 

 

Which was my whole point about F2P games, you should be happy its actually F2P. If the illegal act of pirating is being talked about in this thread then im even going to bother rebuddling.  Just yeah

It's the only solution you have offered.  It doesn't matter if you didn't imply it, that's the reality that your suggestion illustrates.

 

It's not my issue.  Like I've said, I have plenty of slots.  People that can't or won't spend plat on slots though are still players that need to be maintained.  Otherwise who will us paying players play with?

 

Why should I be happy about that?  I'd have been much more happy to drop $60 on this game at retail if it was genuinely worth that.  The devs have been making headway, but the game's development has been pretty rocky and the actual content of the game still leaves much to desire.  I'll probably keep putting money into the game, but that's because I have hopes for the game, not because the f2p system.

 

Piracy is a fact.  If you don't like it, that's your problem.  It  neatly counters your "they have to pay to play that game" argument.  Feel free to run away from the argument if people stealing stuff makes you squeamish.

 

 

 

Warframe slots are $1.80

they are fine the way they are.

The cost is besides the point.  It's penny pinching after people have already put a lot of time into grinding for mats+BPs and then waited 3.5 days for it to build.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Aggh