Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Vellauno]

Hate to add fule to this fire but... have you realized how EVERY FRAME in the game now essentially gets part of his Rhino Skin ability? It is called overshields. Overshields even protects for the same amount as an unmoded Rhino Skin (1200). It lacks the CC prevention though.

 

I agree though, Rhino Skin needs to be scalable. 75% Damage Reduction and CC prevention for duration would make a LOT more sense (the current Rhino skin is really good at low level and really bad at high level).

Edited January 20, 2015 by Vellauno

[Holeypaladin]

Yeah, I also noticed how many people were posting hate messages about shield transference giving "only" 1200 shields like iron skin.  Doesn't speak well for iron skin, having had that much the whole time.

[geninrising]

Yeah, I also noticed how many people were posting hate messages about shield transference giving "only" 1200 shields like iron skin.  Doesn't speak well for iron skin, having had that much the whole time.

The difference being IS is not situational, nor is IS unaffected by power strength. Additionally we can add to that IS is not ignored by various different damages such as Radial damage and specific body part damage(Mag's arms and legs are vulnerable at various points during different animations and her shield can be ignored completely). Hence our response that IS is far superior to Shield Transference.

[geninrising]

Yeah... so it draws aggro but doesn't provide enough resistance to tank the damage.

 

Meaning all that needs to be done is to increase the damage resistance of iron skin and other powers to put it back at the top of DR abilities.  And then perhaps rewrite the aggro mechanics in order to do a better job drawing enemy fire.

 

Perhaps Rhino should have two forms of aggro mechanic.  Iron skin = line of sight aggro, while roar ignores line of sight (since it's heard instead of seen).

Lets be clear on this. We have already discussed exactly why giving him an AOE aggro without LoS is an exploitable ability and why it should not be in game. How clear do we need to be. PEOPLE WILL CHEAT WITH IT. SO NO!

[Holeypaladin]

Even if they did try to exploit it... it still wouldn't be nearly as good as Chaos.  Just another form of CC.  Sort of like irratiating disarm, really, only the taunt version rather than the "attack your friends" version.

 

I don't see it as cheating since Irradiating Disarm is still a solid augment.  Augments need to be worth using a mod slot for them, after all.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

Even if they did try to exploit it... it still wouldn't be nearly as good as Chaos.  Just another form of CC.  Sort of like irratiating disarm, really, only the taunt version rather than the "attack your friends" version.

 

I don't see it as cheating since Irradiating Disarm is still a solid augment.  Augments need to be worth using a mod slot for them, after all.

Not the point bruh. IF some idiot finds a way to exploit it(and in this game they will) then we risk losing the effect entirely. Hence why we made the statement that it could be exploited ahead of time to refrain from inclusion in any concept we attempt to put forth.

[Ronyn]

Even if they did try to exploit it... it still wouldn't be nearly as good as Chaos.  Just another form of CC.  Sort of like irratiating disarm, really, only the taunt version rather than the "attack your friends" version.

 

I don't see it as cheating since Irradiating Disarm is still a solid augment.  Augments need to be worth using a mod slot for them, after all.

Exploit issue is only part of the problem.

With a big AOE aggro it can potentially call too many enemies to attack you simultaneously at high levels will be suicide for any version of iron skin that isn't absurd.

With a small AOE aggro it will only be able to grab enemies that rhino is pretty close to....leaving it pretty limited in use.

We could try to find some size that is just right in hopes to balance that out but then that gets fiddly and can mess with how mod choices affect his other abilities.

Where..if he just aggros whoever he attacks while iron skin is active we void those extremes.

[Beetamus]

I still think that aggro-ing who he attacks with his weapons is not the way to go, as low to reasonably high levels will just die from the damage. Only really late game enemies will not die and be aggroed, and if they are that high, you will get smashed when they shoot back.

 

Maybe a passive area around the rhino (size to be determined) while Iron Skin is up, that way you will have a positioning element involved. Also maybe have a few seconds limit for the enemies inside the area before they aggro to you. Still not a great plan, but just brainstorming.

[sanj66]

Exploit issue is only part of the problem.

With a big AOE aggro it can potentially call too many enemies to attack you simultaneously at high levels will be suicide for any version of iron skin that isn't absurd.

With a small AOE aggro it will only be able to grab enemies that rhino is pretty close to....leaving it pretty limited in use.

We could try to find some size that is just right in hopes to balance that out but then that gets fiddly and can mess with how mod choices affect his other abilities.

Where..if he just aggros whoever he attacks while iron skin is active we void those extremes.

i think this would be best, if an aggro mechanic is properly used, as a range can be exploited by sitting in an empty space casting, killing, then recasting after killing and as you said a huge range would be suicide at higher levels unless you have 100% god mod which no one wants. this suggestion is plausible as it would be unlikely for someone to not attack anything and lets say you dont and your mates are down, they would still attack you now.

[Ronyn]

I still think that aggro-ing who he attacks with his weapons is not the way to go, as low to reasonably high levels will just die from the damage. Only really late game enemies will not die and be aggroed, and if they are that high, you will get smashed when they shoot back.

Early levels can only be balanced around early level gear.

If you are playing level a 15 area with a level 15 warframe holding a level 15 weapon.....

Enemies don't actually go down super fast. In that case the aggro mechanic makes sense.

If you are playing a level 15 area with a level 30 warframe holding a level 30 weapon.....

Enemies die fast because you are overpowered.

 

Late level enemies will not instantly die and get aggro'd for X seconds when hit by rhino's attack...

but they do hit pretty hard which is why we have also been talking about increasing iron skins effective HP.

[Beetamus]

Fair point on the low level stuff but I am able to kill things easily up to wave 20 in T4D's with my Braton prime (not a top tier gun) in a few shots, just wondering where we are aiming for balance wise to not kill the enemies, but to aggro them?

Obviously we want Iron Skin to scale, it's kinda why i'm asking questions like this, to make sure we have thought of most things.

 

My Braton prime has a potato and 2 forma's, so it's had work done, but far from what it could be.

[Gahrzerkire]

Has this guy not seen the iron skin augment??? That thing basically turns his tank into a nuclear bomb with radial knockdown... enabling you to recast... while your enemies are on there butts. Its great the way it is. Its really great. OP infact. I can tank tons of damage, and then proceed to blow up when i need to reset. Can mesa's shatter shield explode with knockdown? I think not. 

[Holeypaladin]

Iron skin isn't supposed to be an offensive power, so I could care less about the augment.  The fact that iron skin fails at doing what Rhino's primary purpose is (tanking) means that it has already lost in my book.

 

A year ago, Rhino was THE tank.  A lot has changed over the last year, and Rhino got ignored while other frames got tankier abilities that scaled better to the high level content that has come out in the past year.  So it's time for Rhino to catch up.

[Ronyn]

Fair point on the low level stuff but I am able to kill things easily up to wave 20 in T4D's with my Braton prime (not a top tier gun) in a few shots, just wondering where we are aiming for balance wise to not kill the enemies, but to aggro them?

Obviously we want Iron Skin to scale, it's kinda why i'm asking questions like this, to make sure we have thought of most things.

 

My Braton prime has a potato and 2 forma's, so it's had work done, but far from what it could be.

I hear ya, that;s why we are all working on this together. Which I'm quite grateful for I must say.

 

The way warframe works there is a notable difference between how many shots a regular, a heavy, a special, and a boss type enemy can take.

As a general rule, the tougher the enemy the more important it is that be aggro'd.The weaker the enemy the easier it is for whoever else to simply kill them anyway. It's like a priority of target type of thing.

 

Also- 

If you were to set a stopwatch for 10 seconds, see how many enemies you can aggro that with a sweeping spray of fire... 

If you were to set a stopwatch for 10 seconds, see how many enemies you can kill with the same gun....... 

You'll find that you can aggro far more than you can kill in the same length of time realistically.

[Holeypaladin]

Well with the iron skin aggro mechanics from update 8... it's already supposed to aggro things that see Rhino.  That change may have been reverted when iron skin started to fall off in seconds, but that just means iron skin needs to last longer than a few seconds and keep the aggro mechanic.

[geninrising]

Well with the iron skin aggro mechanics from update 8... it's already supposed to aggro things that see Rhino.  That change may have been reverted when iron skin started to fall off in seconds, but that just means iron skin needs to last longer than a few seconds and keep the aggro mechanic.

I will never vote for AOE aggro because to give him aoe aggro would necessitate Rhino being a hell of a lot more tanky than what I'm willing so sign off on. Rhino should NOT be able to tank 10-15 enemies in a  T4 at really any point IMO and what people are asking for is just that, some way to tank those numbers. Guess what guys. NOTHING is balanced or implemented to guarantee it's effectiveness outside of the star chart.

 

DE is never gonna make you tank worthy for long t4 survivals or Defenses because they expect you to make it far there on skill not on IS.

Enter the skill component we suggested, selective aggro via modified damage mechanics. Rhino's IS will never be the uber tank that you guys are asking for. DE does not want full blown tanks in game. They want everyone actively working to do their part for the team damaging/buffing/surviving VIA skill not press 2 2 win, nor would they ever give you a skill knowing that some player is going to go into end game content and hit said skill and get nuked instantly because they think the should be able to take it. Thus causing said player to head to the forums and commit to another thread exactly like this one screaming for more buffs.

 

Take what we have stated so far(just looking at Ronyn's and my posts and actually think about what kind of difference it would make to current Rhino. Anything beyond what we have stated goes into potential nerf in the future areas. It's absolutely senseless to build him back up to godtank and be sh|t on once again because of greed.

 

Nothing is balanced skill wise for end game and therefore all skills that perform a task unrelated to damage will always reign supreme. At this point be happy they gave him Roar because otherwise he would be a p 4 2 get killed because he can't hit it again ONLY frame. 

 

Trying to work this out is like beating a dead horse. Ronyn and I are the only ones actually offering metered suggestions that do not enter exploit or broken territory. What's with people always wanting to be god tier? Unless you want all of Rhino's skills reduced to more needless CC he will never really be long run material simply because his skills do not perform exactly the same(with the same level of effectiveness) regardless of enemy levels. His ult works well, his roar is nice, his charge works for what it is used for and his IS needs a buff.

 

The problem is that all of these things are GOING to be weaker in t4 content because of things he cannot combat Dash(level scaling already has this obsolete once you even touch t4 other than as a movement ability), IS gets melted in seconds(enemy damage is already higher than the majority of the star chart), Roar(due to armor, shield, and health scaling is not as effective a buff due to enemies IDGAF levels of previously stated scaled statistics)and increased spawns(so stomp is no longer effective due to the numbers of enemies inbound constantly). 

Edited January 21, 2015 by geninrising

[Bobtm]

 Trying to work this out is like beating a dead horse. Ronyn and I are the only ones actually offering metered suggestions that do not enter exploit or broken territory. What's with people always wanting to be god tier? 

 

What am I?  Chopped liver...

 

Honestly though, while this discussion is moving in a much better direction than it was it's become more than just evidently clear that some folks just doesn't have a core grasp on appropriate balance.  That's not a bad thing, but it sort of nearly invalidates their ability to come up with appropriate ideas.  As we all know, there's no good to be had by making Rhino overpowered as that will only result in him being nigh instantly nerfed again to counteract the problems it would cause.

 

It's like you, Ronyn, I, and a small handful of other folks have said time and again.  Rhino will never be able to stand there in the smack dab middle of a room and suck up gunfire from that room in a T4.  This is pretty much ground rule number one and it's critical.

 

Anyways, thus far having Rhino being able to generate/control aggro by damaging foes while IS is up has been by far the strongest suggestion out of what's been given at this point.  It not only seems to work from a mechanical standpoint, but it literally gives the player active control in this situation.  If someone knows their own capabilities they can do a myriad of things with something like that.  First thing that comes to my mind is always carrying a Viper with Punch Through so I can quickspray it through a horde and then play reverse pin the tail on the Rhino with them.

 

Aside weapon based damage, the only other thing I could see it being safely applied to would be the air slide "kick" so that one could boot an enemy, then run around while they follow in rage.  Applying such to any other damage form ends with us smack dab in troubling territory once more as a single Rhino Stomp breaks it all again.

 

The only way to continue the discussion and have it keep meaning something at this point is almost to automatically ignore any comments that don't follow the critical rule here.  Breaking it is more or less a guarantee that the idea will never be implemented.  It sucks that it's come to this point, but we're 34 pages in and no amount of reasoning seems to have hammered this very core point home yet.

[UnknownGunneryChief]

-snip-

This thread is going nowhere. Holeypaladin just wants to see godmode Rhino again and can't think about anything but "RHINO IS NEEDS BUFF DE FIX IT ASAP". He is using old and irrelevant "proof" and comparing Rhino to the newest frames just because they have a self-defense ability too. Simply lock this thread and ignore it, Holeypaladin and all those wanting to buff IS don't understand that T4, hell even the entirety of the void was not created to be shooting at a Rhino for hours while he just stands there scratching his balls and spamming his Boltor P while spamming in chat "GUYZ I NEED AMMO PLSSSS".

 

/sarcasm

[Holeypaladin]

No one is asking for invincibility.

 

But Rhino is supposed to be the most resilient warframe.  He simply needs to be returned to that position.

 

It's really just that simple.  Iron skin used to be the only damage resistance skill... now there are much strongest damage resistance skills out there.  So Iron skin needs to be buffed to the same level as the other damage resistance skills.

 

If the update 8 aggro mechanics are still in effect, then the aggro situation is already resolved.  The simple fact is that iron skin needs to be improved so that it's at least tied with the other damage resistance skills in the game.  It already has its "downside"... the downside being that it draws enemy fire and is (currently) taken down in seconds.  So it needs a buff to match the fact that it draws enemy fire and is destroyed in seconds, back up to the top tier of defensive skills.

 

I don't see what's so complicated about that.  Rhino is supposed to be the tank.  So give him the best tank skill.  A tank skill every bit as good as link, shatter shield, and eclipse.  And get rid of hysteria's invincibility, it's an insult to Rhino's former invincibility.

 

It's really just that simple.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Last argument:  Rhino is extremely popular, not because of style, but because of easy.

Buff because/while popular already?

 

Nope.

 

He's still one of the most resilient warframes.  Look at Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excal, Frost, Hydroid, Limbo, Loki, Mag, Nekros, Nova, Nyx, Oberon, Saryn, Vauban, and Volt.  All vastly less tanky than Rhino.  The only ones who are (situationally) as, or more tanky than Rhino, are Mesa/Mirage/Trinity/Valkyr/Zephyr.  Trinity has to run a specific build and hope to god not to lag, Mirage will almost never be using Eclipse for tankiness, due to lack of shadows, Mesa and Zephyr are only resistant to bullets, and Valkyr becomes melee.

 

Get off your pedestal,  Rhino still drops from the frigging second boss in the game, he's easy to get, and he's easily the tankiest when things are still relatively easy.  That.  Is.  All.  There are other tanky frames out there that can situationally meet or surpass that of Rhino, and Rhino certainly has a better kit than Mesa, Vastly more reliable defense than Mirage, Infinitely more CC than Trinity,  Decent damage on abilites unlike Zephyr, and, again, Range, unlike Valkyr.

 

Cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

[Holeypaladin]

He's supposed to be the tankiest.  It's as simple as that.

 

It doesn't matter what you want him to be, he's supposed to be THE tankiest.  Just look at him.

 

Sixth tankiest does not = tankiest.  Buff because he's fallen behind the power curve due to increasing enemy levels.  That's simple enough.  Because his power doesn't scale to the increasing level of enemy content.  Because he's supposed to have THE BEST defensive power, and better defensive powers were introduces while he was neglected.

 

That's all there is to it.  It has nothing to do with popularity.  It has everything to do with his concept, his design, and everything about the basis of his warframe.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Aggro mechanics would have to make Rhino dependable on support to actually tank.

 

If he can do everything himself, it's op, and that he is the least tankiest is your viewpoint, Holeypaladin, and it's barely true, because all other tanky frames have downsides, aren't reliable, or simply aren't immune to CC.

 

God, this thread barely has changed since I left it.

 

If Rhino could easymode facetank later on in T4 with the rest of his toolkit, he would really deserve the name Rhinoob.

Edited January 21, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Holeypaladin]

Attracting all of the enemy fire in the room is definitely a downside.  That's what it's supposed to do as of U8, at least.

 

If people want to play a frame that's more resilient than any other frame in the game because it's the most resilient frame in the game, who are any of you to say otherwise?  Let them play it, rather than lying to them and saying "oh yes it's resilient, except it's not really the most resilient warframe, we're just lying about that part."

 

It's pretty offensive to have a warframes durability, resilience, and tankiness stressed so heavily in its lore, concept, and video... only to have that proven wrong when you get to Ceres.

 

Scaling iron skin's artificial health off of base health (2x base health plus power strength) with armor DR applied to it (buffed to 300ish base armor) means it is NOT godlike in lower level content when used by a new player.  Because new players are stuck with 300 health with a level 30 warframe, since they haven't maxed out Vitality to get the 740 necessary for iron skin to scale to higher level content.  It's really a universal improvement to the power for all levels of content.

 

He doesn't need to be immortal, he just needs iron skin to be as good as any other damage reduction power in the game.  And it'd be nice if he could survive at least three seconds of concentrated enemy fire in a T4 mission, since the aggro mechanic means he'll be attracting concentrated fire anyway.  Three seconds really isn't much to ask for at all, but at the moment it's about half a second.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Warframe has a Meta, and doing a Nightmare mission and beeing suddenly surrounded by Rhinos is an usual occourance.

 

I don't think any frame should be able to easytank and Mesa/Valkyr/Mirage are all conditional tanks who either lacks another thing, Rhino has or are tied to situational use.

 

And you don't believe your own words when you say that beginners aren't able to rank up vitality a few points. I could do it back then and I doubt, I'm such a genius/lucker.

 

The advertising doesn't deceive you. Rhino still takes more hits to be taken down than almost every other frame in the game.

 

Ok, on a second thought, depending on level and balancing, I'm not even against a slight buff. But all I've read all along in this topic was the inflational use of the phrase facetanking in T4.

 

In my opinion Rhino is not in a bad spot at all. If he actually gets buffed somehow, I'm eager to see the result and the meta.

Edited January 21, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Holeypaladin]

It doesn't matter what you think a frame should be able to do, what matters is that some frames can tank and some frames can't.  And the frame specifically described as a tank can't tank as well as several frames who are described more as support, berserker, and GLASS CANNON frames of all things.

 

That's pure false advertising, plain and simple.

 

I doubt Rhino was ever intentionally nerfed to be less resilient than Trinity, nor were Valkyr, Zephyr, Mirage, and Mesa intentionally introduced to be more resilient than Rhino.  But the fact is, they all ARE, and that's a problem that needs to be addressed.  An inconsistency.  And whether some people believe there should be tanks in Warframe or not... the fact exists that there ARE warframes who are meant to be tanks.

 

So either remove the tank warframes from the game completely, or fix their abilities to actually be tank abilities, making them the most resilient of the warframes like a tank should be.

 

If Rhino is too easy for new players to acquire... just make him more difficult to acquire.  Send his parts to Pluto or something and have Excalibur parts drop form Venus.  That would actually make a lot more sense, since Excalibur is a starter warframe but his parts are in one of the highest level planets in the game.

 

At this point I'd rather see Rhino retired from the game than disgraced like this.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Holeypaladin