Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Cynaris]

You guys still going? Lol.

[DeadlyBard676]

it is called invincibility. invisibility is being unable to be seen, invincibility is being unable to be hurt

[ltlsiren]

You guys still going? Lol.

This is the only reasonable response to this whole farce... 

[Azawarau]

CAUTIOUSNESS AND LITERACY = 0

 

The fact that iron skin is even weaker than Mag's ability in the void... means that it has fallen well behind where it should be.

 

Anyway, I don't ever ask for nerfs.  Let Mirage keep her shadow invulnerability, just give Rhino a similar power that works in the light.  And bring back snow globe invulnerability... the bombards already turn the inside of that globe into a death trap, so it might as well last the full duration.

 

Blocking only works when you're in melee-only mode.  Rhino is not a melee frame, that's Valkyr.

"I dont ever ask for nerfs"

 

What do you expect then when youre literally not6 taking the easiest step to solve the problem?

 

Rhino has to be invincible just to make it even by comparison and the game is trash by then

 

Any reason why youre against nerfs?

[Azawarau]

Heavy DOES equal tanky.  Ask anyone who knows what the military definition of tanky is.

 

Valkyr is a melee berserker frame.  That's her premise.  People who want to play a melee berserker will play Valkyr.  People who want to play a tank should have the option of playing Rhino Prime as a tank.  It takes an outright lie to yourself to ever say that Rhino is not meant to be a tank, as it's clearly obvious based on all his lore and original abilities.  His intended role has ALWAYS been the tank... along with Frost, who is more of a stationary tank by design.

 

And Rhino was an amazing tank back when iron skin's third iteration was first released, because that was before the major buff to enemy weapon damage.  That amount of health lasted longer than a duration-based iron skin typically would.  But that's not the case anymore... iron skin has fallen behind for high-level content, so the primed version is the only way for Rhino Prime to resume his role as a tank.

 

I find it quite insulting that Rhino Prime's role has been reduced to that of a roar-stomp bot with no viable tanking abilities to speak of.

So berserkers dont tank? Isnt that an assumption?

 

Do valkyr and rhino have to follow the cliches youve set in your mind for them entirely?

 

Rhino is the tank. Youre wrong ab out that. The issue is other frames

 

Roar and stomp are tanking abilities

 

Support tanking and damage mititgation

 

Iron skin gives very good HP/Energy used and you just dont want to acknowledge it

[Holeypaladin]

Roar and stomp are not tanking abilities.  They are support abilities... a buff and a short CC ability are pure support, nothing tanky about them.

 

Tanking abilities mitigate damage.  And Rhino has the worst damage mitigation in the game at high levels.  And iron skin has the worst hp/energy of any damage mitigation power in the game at high levels... even worse than Mag's ability.

 

Hence the need for an improved version for the high-level rhino prime.  Because of more and more high level content.

[Azawarau]

Roar and stomp are not tanking abilities.  They are support abilities... a buff and a short CC ability are pure support, nothing tanky about them.

 

Tanking abilities mitigate damage.  And Rhino has the worst damage mitigation in the game at high levels.  And iron skin has the worst hp/energy of any damage mitigation power in the game at high levels... even worse than Mag's ability.

 

Hence the need for an improved version for the high-level rhino prime.  Because of more and more high level content.

Theyre support

 

Interesting that you point that out

 

Apparently making enemies unable to move for 8 seconds ona wide range isnt damage mitigation. Do you know what damage mitigation even means?

 

Speaking of defining words

 

Do you know what short means? 8 Seconds of enemies cant move =/= short

[Holeypaladin]

The easy step is to buff a single ability rather than nerf a dozen.  That's the absolute easiest step.

 

And no one likes to have their favorite frame nerfed.  No one.  That's as good a reason as any to be against the concept of nerfs.  They're nothing but a disappointment to those who enjoy using the frame... look at how upset everyone was when Ember was nerfed.

 

Buffing frames to the same level means everyone wins.  DE has said in the past that they'd rather buff things to the same level than nerf things, so a simple buff to iron skin would bring back Rhino as the main tank he was always meant to be.

 

Rhino's concept is pretty similar to the spehse mehreens from WH40k.  He's the closest Warframe equivalent to a spehse mehreen, but he falls short at high levels because of enemy damage scaling.  People who like to be a spehse mehreen should have that option with Rhino.

[sanj66]

You just called Terrify and SOTD better than Iron skin for face tanking

 

Credibility = 0

you dont seem to understand what he said he meant those skills are better than trying to face tank, he doesnt mean you can face tank better with those skills. note he says they do a better job THAN face tanking and not AT facing tanking.

[Holeypaladin]

8 seconds is incredibly short, when you figure the unmodded duration of Ash's invisibility is only 8 seconds.  And all other CC powers in the game last considerably longer than 8 seconds.  And the fact that stomp costs a massive 100 energy for a fairly short range.

 

100 energy for 8 seconds?  Pretty costly.  It's a panic button, not a reliable tank power.

[Azawarau]

you dont seem to understand what he said he meant those skills are better than trying to face tank, he doesnt mean you can face tank better with those skills. note he says they do a better job THAN face tanking and not AT facing tanking.

They arent

 

Hes ignoring stomp entirely

[Azawarau]

8 seconds is incredibly short, when you figure the unmodded duration of Ash's invisibility is only 8 seconds.  And all other CC powers in the game last considerably longer than 8 seconds.  And the fact that stomp costs a massive 100 energy for a fairly short range.

 

100 energy for 8 seconds?  Pretty costly.  It's a panic button, not a reliable tank power.

How about you consider the duration cant be dropped below 8 seconds

 

You can cap efficiency and spam it for 25 energy and never lose on that 8 seconds

 

Thats 32 seconds of stun for 100 energy

 

And that benefits iron skin equally

Edited January 14, 2015 by Azawarau

[DSpite]

Heavy DOES equal tanky.  Ask anyone who knows what the military definition of tanky is.

 

Valkyr is a melee berserker frame.  That's her premise.  People who want to play a melee berserker will play Valkyr.  People who want to play a tank should have the option of playing Rhino Prime as a tank.  It takes an outright lie to yourself to ever say that Rhino is not meant to be a tank, as it's clearly obvious based on all his lore and original abilities.  His intended role has ALWAYS been the tank... along with Frost, who is more of a stationary tank by design.

 

And Rhino was an amazing tank back when iron skin's third iteration was first released, because that was before the major buff to enemy weapon damage.  That amount of health lasted longer than a duration-based iron skin typically would.  But that's not the case anymore... iron skin has fallen behind for high-level content, so the primed version is the only way for Rhino Prime to resume his role as a tank.

 

I find it quite insulting that Rhino Prime's role has been reduced to that of a roar-stomp bot with no viable tanking abilities to speak of.

 

Rhino is a heavily-armored Warframe with the strength and fortitude of his reckless, stampeding namesake.

Frost is a slow and heavily-armored Warframe that is able to utilize offensive and defensive skills to both his own and his team's advantage.

Valkyr is a berserker-themed Warframe.

 

I don't get where you get this "tank" mentality rubbish that it means "stand in one spot and get shot at" because it does not. Real life tanks are used as an infantry support weapon, they are not just sent in alone to "face tank and kill everything". Tanking in traditional MMO's also imply aggro and attracting attacks AND the use of other team members to keep him alive via healing.

 

If you can't actually see the damn difference, you need to google more.

 

No frame in THIS game should "power up" and then wade into enemy fire thinking that is what the abilities were designed for. The whole process should be a very careful dance where mistakes get you killed and NOT "I now have a ton of EHP, lets kill everything before it wears off", then hide behind a crate to re-apply and start again. Hysteria, with it's "deal damage back to Valkyr on expiry" is a perfect example of DE trying to make a "thinking skill" not a temporary invulnerability.

 

Iron skin is an ablative buffer that should be used in situations where normal Frames might get one-shot for simply stepping around a corner to return fire to say, a Ballista. The ability to "trade lethal fire" for a short duration against a high damage unit is what makes it useful.

 

When a Rank 30 Rhino faces all level 30+ units, that is where the proper balance is supposed to come out. Having it on ALL THE TIME is not the best tactic. Modded shields with regen should be the primary defense, just like for everyone else.

 

If I see a Bombard or similar unit that will apply procs or knockdowns, that's when IS works best, THAT point in time is about the only point in time where your "face tanking" might even remotely apply, and even then ONLY if the team is in danger. I don't see many Frames that have trouble handling themselves when they use their own abilities correctly. IS allows a Rhino to get a short spike in survivability to do something stupid is "doing something stupid" end up being the ONLY remaining option. Having IS up all the time is just the "lazy" way of doing things, when you have teams that basically spread the damage 4 ways, and you are carrying enough firepower to drop a starship.

 

Having IS up all the time means that it will never be at 100% WHEN YOU NEED IT MOST. If I need to go out and res someone, that's when I need it on 100%, and even then I will only turn it on just BEFORE I start reviving, and then AFTER a Stomp to CC anything nearby, first using my shield/health buffer to get there (if possible).

 

This "high level" rubbish thinking is just that. Rubbish.

 

I'm a rank 30 Frame. I need to face level 30-40 BALANCED units in order to play what the Frame is really about.

 

Units that are 10-20 are hardly going to drop IS in a meaningful way. That is why IS feels OP on low level planets. That is why everyone - including me - mindlessly turn it on at the start. It takes around 5-10 units worth of concentrated fire for a couple of seconds to drop IS, and I carry a gun that can drop those units with a single round. Of course I will end that mission still wearing my starting cast of IS. I could do EXACTLY the same run without IS actually on simply on shields, the MAIN function of IS there is stopping bleeds and knockdowns and NOT "face tanking".

 

Units well above 40 are doing 2x-3x+ times the damage of normal units because scaling is not hand-balanced, it's not even based on a damn linear formula, so of course IS will drop in seconds if you stay in the open. EVERYONE dies in the open against level 60+ units. Why is that a surprise? You Put up IS if your shields are about to drop, move around a bit, and way before IS drops, you are back on full Shields. And yes, it is a "Panic Button" of sorts, I use Rift Walk on Limbo as a Panic Button, I use Super Jump on Excal as a Panic Button, and Molt, and Decoy, and Undertow ... should I go on?

 

If DE wanted a "tanking" mechanic like you ask, all they have to do is turn normal shields into Proto Shields while Iron Skin is on and apply a higher recharge rate. High mobility on demand would mitigate enough incoming damage to keep the Proto Shields on max and only get you killed on really big frakups.

[Holeypaladin]

Terrify and SOTD both last a lot longer than stomp.  And Terrify costs less energy as well.

 

Stomp is expensive and doesn't last very long.  It's a panic button, not a reliable CC.  Rhino doesn't have a reliable CC since taunt was removed.  And taunting is suicide when you can't tank the damage.

[Holeypaladin]

That entire long rant completely ignored the fact that OTHER FRAMES CAN TANK, just not Rhino.

 

Fortitude means tank, by the way.

 

Also... Blitzkrieg.  Ever heard of it?  It's a strategy where you send tanks in to destroy the enemy completely before they have a chance to react.  Worked pretty well for Germany.

 

Rhino was always intended as the tank frame, but so long as other frames are doing a better job tanking high level missions, he falls short.  Hence why Rhino prime needs to be able to tank as well as all the tanky girls out there.  I feel like I'm talking to a wall, here.

[Azawarau]

Terrify and SOTD both last a lot longer than stomp.  And Terrify costs less energy as well.

 

Stomp is expensive and doesn't last very long.  It's a panic button, not a reliable CC.  Rhino doesn't have a reliable CC since taunt was removed.  And taunting is suicide when you can't tank the damage.

Terrify has a target limit and shorter range

 

It also makes enemies run away annoyingly so theyre harder to hit

 

How is 8 seconds for 25 energy not reliable exactly? Keep in mind this is 8 seconds plus the standing animation

 

Youre not even addressing the fact that efficiency exists.

 

Youve been quite the troll this thread you know

[Kruglov]

 

Rhino was always intended as the tank frame, but so long as other frames are doing a better job tanking high level missions, he falls short.  Hence why Rhino prime needs to be able to tank as well as all the tanky girls out there.  I feel like I'm talking to a wall, here.

 

 

It's because your idea is bad and you are outright ignoring all the arguments people are putting forward to explain why its bad.

[Kruglov]

Terrify and SOTD both last a lot longer than stomp.  And Terrify costs less energy as well.

 

Stomp is expensive and doesn't last very long.  It's a panic button, not a reliable CC.  Rhino doesn't have a reliable CC since taunt was removed.  And taunting is suicide when you can't tank the damage.

 

 

Terrify cant hit every enemy in an AOE unless you mod for strength.

Terrify also makes enemies harder to kill because they run away and dont stop running until they reach the edge of a map.

Terrify also has a cooldown.

Terrify also cannot be recast to hit more targets.

 

Shadows outright ignore threats at times.

Enemies outright ignore shadows at times.

Shadows also block teammates.

Shadows also block gunfire.

Shadows also require nearly 7 seconds to fully cast.

Shadows also do not aggressively provide CC to protect teammates or objectives.

 

Stomp is not expensive when you build for efficiency.

Stomp hits every enemy in an aoe, not just a few.

Stomp lasts 8 seconds which is more than enough time to kill heavy enemies that are stunned before they fall to the floor.

If you cannot kill a heavy enemy in 8 seconds of stun you are modding your guns or melee improperly.

Especially if Roar happens to be activated during the Stomp.

[Azawarau]

That entire long rant completely ignored the fact that OTHER FRAMES CAN TANK, just not Rhino.

 

Fortitude means tank, by the way.

 

Also... Blitzkrieg.  Ever heard of it?  It's a strategy where you send tanks in to destroy the enemy completely before they have a chance to react.  Worked pretty well for Germany.

 

Rhino was always intended as the tank frame, but so long as other frames are doing a better job tanking high level missions, he falls short.  Hence why Rhino prime needs to be able to tank as well as all the tanky girls out there.  I feel like I'm talking to a wall, here.

So rhino should be the only tank?

[Holeypaladin]

Putting a fleeting expertise on Rhino is nerfing his only useful skill, Roar.  In order to use stomp effectively while still keeping a good duration on Roar, you'd only have streamline... so that's 8 seconds for 70 energy, not 8 seconds for 25.

 

Anyway, another option since people don't like the idea of returning iron skin and demand nerfs as well as buffs is this:

 

4 simple steps to balance out tanking in Warframe:

 

Step 1: Remove the invincibility on Hysteria and replace it with an 85% damage reduction instead.  When factoring her life drain, she can easily heal faster than she takes damage.

Step 2: Remove power scaling on all damage reduction abilities (Eclipse, Shatter shield) because 75% damage reduction for Mirage and 80% for Mesa is more than enough, they don't need 95%.

Step 3: Return to second iteration iron skin, to make it a flat 85% damage reduction power, duration-based.  Instead of life drain he has CC immunity instead.  OR make Iron Skin have about 8000 HP, but only last a limited duration.

Step 4: Give Frost an augment to make snow globe eximus-like

 

This essentially removes immortality/invincibility from all frames, but gives them all ways to mitigate damage without dying in one hit.

 

Is that an acceptable compromise, or do you insist on removing the tank viability of Rhino altogether?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Kruglov]

 

Is that an acceptable compromise, or do you insist on removing the tank viability of Rhino altogether?

 

 

He doesn't need tank viability.

He has nearly 2k effective base HP without even factoring in armor and mods.

Over 3k when factoring in those.

He is naturally a fatass.

 

He can recast that HP the very instant it comes off.

He runs faster than almost all the frames with Rush. He has more than enough mod space for Rush.

He has a giant AOE stun that stuns every enemy in an area.

He has a roar damage spell that buffs himself and teammates that goes up in buffing power with STRENGTH which also increases his Iron Skin and Stomp Damage.

 

Rhinos only problem is that Iron Skin doesnt benefit his team in any way.

It is an entirely selfish independent spell that only works for Rhino.

The only change is reallly needs is for it to give some sort of team benefit outside of keeping Rhino from dying.

 

There's been plenty of ideas to fix this:

 

- Iron Skin grants teammates brief proc immunity in an aoe when cast

- Iron Skin gives Rhino and his team an armor boost every time it deflects damage/procs

- Iron Skin reflects a % of damage deflected to nearby enemies

- Iron Skin increases the armor of nearby teammates by a flat amount until it comes off

- Iron Skin taunts all enemies and absorbs all damage within 5 seconds of being cast, which is added to its total HP

- Iron Skin provides nearby teammates in a small AOE a base % of evasion to avoid damage

 

There's been plenty of ideas to make it more team-friendly.

 

The last thing it needs is more tankiness.

Rhino is already tanky.

You can remain deluded if you like with your theorycrafting, but at the end of the day you cant ignore this simple fact:

 

- there are rhinos playing vs level 40-50+ grineer and corrupted and corpus RIGHT NOW who are having an easy time of it because Rhino's kit is so good. They will not die tonight because they understand the limits of the character and know how to play it properly. If they die it will be because they had a lapse in judgement and not because of the character itself. They will continue to dance around, not dying, and not getting injured and having a grand old time being one of the best frames while you sit here pulling your hair out and trying to convince the world that Rhino is underpowered.

[Ronyn]

And if were going to go off flavor text Valkyr has plenty of reason to beat rhino

That seems like a stretch to me.

[Holeypaladin]

Right, so you're a Rhino hater.  Got it.  You don't want Rhino to be a tank at all.

 

Then everything you say is invalidated by that alone.  Since he is intended to be the tank frame.

[Holeypaladin]

So rhino should be the only tank?

No, Rhino shouldn't be the only tank.

 

He should be the best tank, though, since he is the original tank frame.  Anyone who says he shouldn't be... is trying to re-purpose Rhino into something he was never intended for.  He is THE original tank warframe.  He's just no longer viable as a tank because of increased enemy damage at high levels and a power that doesn't scale well enough.

[Azawarau]

Putting a fleeting expertise on Rhino is nerfing his only useful skill, Roar.  In order to use stomp effectively while still keeping a good duration on Roar, you'd only have streamline... so that's 8 seconds for 70 energy, not 8 seconds for 25.

 

Anyway, another option since people don't like the idea of returning iron skin and demand nerfs as well as buffs is this:

 

3 simple steps to balance out tanking in Warframe:

 

Step 1: Remove the invincibility on Hysteria and replace it with an 85% damage reduction instead.  When factoring her life drain, she can easily heal faster than she takes damage.

Step 2: Remove power scaling on all damage reduction abilities (Eclipse, Shatter shield) because 75% damage reduction for Mirage and 80% for Mesa is more than enough, they don't need 95%.

Step 3: Return to second iteration iron skin, to make it a flat 85% damage reduction power, duration-based.  Instead of life drain he has CC immunity instead.

 

This essentially removes immortality/invincibility from all frames, but gives them all ways to mitigate damage without dying in one hit.

 

Is that an acceptable compromise, or do you insist on removing the tank viability of Rhino altogether?

Yeah

 

Throw in Primed continuity and you get your base time back

 

 

Right, so you're a Rhino hater.  Got it.  You don't want Rhino to be a tank at all.

 

Then everything you say is invalidated by that alone.  Since he is intended to be the tank frame.

Giving up already?

 

Just hit up a corpus survival and grineer nightmare capture without breaking a sweat on rhino

 

Wen to Kiste twice and had no issue face tanking