Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Thaumatos]

How exactly is high defense a band aid? You better be able to explain this if youre so quick to insult

 

You already know i think invincibility is broken so its stupid to even bring that up.

She was released with 300 armor.  It wasn't enough and they patched it to 600.  This was back before Life Strike existed...and they hadn't lowered it since.

 

If that isn't enough of an explanation that DE hadn't done any balance work on armor, there's no getting through to you.

 

Edit:

 

Let me rephrase that.  They released her with 300 armor.  People cried and cried and cried about how they couldn't go 100% melee with her because Warframe just wasn't balanced for that.  Their fix?  Double the armor.

 

Total band-aid move.  In 2015 I'm hoping they rectify their issues with base stats during their 'polish' patches and re-work her into an actual berserker.  High incoming damage, high outgoing damage.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Azawarau]

She was released with 300 armor.  It wasn't enough and they patched it to 600.  This was back before Life Strike existed...and they hadn't lowered it since.

 

If that isn't enough of an explanation that DE hadn't done any balance work on armor, there's no getting through to you.

 

Edit:

 

Let me rephrase that.  They released her with 300 armor.  People cried and cried and cried about how they couldn't go 100% melee with her because Warframe just wasn't balanced for that.  Their fix?  Double the armor.

 

Total band-aid move.  In 2015 I'm hoping they rectify their issues with base stats during their 'polish' patches and re-work her into an actual berserker.  High incoming damage, high outgoing damage.

Well now youd have to show how 600 is too much with life strike around

 

If you think it is then grab a valkyr and build her however you like but leave one slot empty that would be the steel fiber shed have on and try lvl 40 enemies

 

Good luck

[Thaumatos]

Well now youd have to show how 600 is too much with life strike around

 

If you think it is then grab a valkyr and build her however you like but leave one slot empty that would be the steel fiber shed have on and try lvl 40 enemies

 

Good luck

Dude I melee t4 void runs with xcal at 61 armor.  GTFO.

 

Edit:

 

I should note that melee 2.0 was released after valk; further signifying that melee wasn't even considered a method of completing a mission when they released the zerker frame.  It was still an afterthought at that point.  A 'side weapon' at best.

 

Timelines are important to understanding history.  Not that you don't, personally...but other people might not.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Azawarau]

Dude I melee t4 void runs with xcal at 61 armor.  GTFO.

 

Edit:

 

I should note that melee 2.0 was released after valk; further signifying that melee wasn't even considered a method of completing a mission when they released the zerker frame.  It was still an afterthought at that point.  A 'side weapon' at best.

 

Timelines are important to understanding history.  Not that you don't, personally...but other people might not.

Excali has 2 CCs, an escape button, and a combo builder

 

I melee T 4s with Nekros and Ember

 

You havnt answered my question

[Thaumatos]

Excali has 2 CCs, an escape button, and a combo builder

 

I melee T 4s with Nekros and Ember

 

You havnt answered my question

2 CCs?  I'm assuming you're talking about RJ's new "stun" that goes away by the time the animation ends.  Yeah...awesome CC.

 

I don't even need to use blind with Life Strike.

 

You answered your own question...rather more of a statement.

 

You don't need 600+ armor to melee now that life strike exists.  I wouldn't be able to go 2 seconds in melee without Life Strike on any frame without an invulnerability or a heal ability.

 

Do I like Life Strike? ... No.  I friggin hate it.  It's one of the biggest band-aids they've added to melee in Warframe.  It needs to be removed and defenses need to be re-balanced.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Azawarau]

2 CCs?  I'm assuming you're talking about RJ's new "stun" that goes away by the time the animation ends.  Yeah...awesome CC.

 

I don't even need to use blind with Life Strike.

 

You answered your own question...rather more of a statement.

 

You don't need 600+ armor to melee now that life strike exists.  I wouldn't be able to go 2 seconds in melee without Life Strike on any frame without an invulnerability or a heal ability.

 

Do I like Life Strike? ... No.  I friggin hate it.  It's one of the biggest band-aids they've added to melee in Warframe.  It needs to be removed and defenses need to be re-balanced.

Defenses do need to be rebalanced

 

Life strike isnt the issue, Rage is

 

Id like to see how far your Excali goes without RB or ally CC

 

Enemies up to 35 are doable with most any frame wiht life strike

 

After 40 youre going to need CC or damage mitigation of some kind

[geninrising]

2 CCs?  I'm assuming you're talking about RJ's new "stun" that goes away by the time the animation ends.  Yeah...awesome CC.

 

I don't even need to use blind with Life Strike.

 

You answered your own question...rather more of a statement.

 

You don't need 600+ armor to melee now that life strike exists.  I wouldn't be able to go 2 seconds in melee without Life Strike on any frame without an invulnerability or a heal ability.

 

Do I like Life Strike? ... No.  I friggin hate it.  It's one of the biggest band-aids they've added to melee in Warframe.  It needs to be removed and defenses need to be re-balanced.

RJ's stun only goes away before the animation if you do not use natural Talent. I thought everyone used natural talent on Excal since the inclusion of the long cast.

[(XBOX)Strange Destiny]

I only read the title, but I agree. whatever this is should return. now.

[Ronyn]

 

She was released with 300 armor. -They released her with 300 armor. 

Released with 200 armor actually. DE tripled it!

In fact the video still shows 200 armor rating...heh 

https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Valkyr

 

Well now youd have to show how 600 is too much with life strike around

-

Life strike isnt the issue, Rage is

 

The combination of those things is the issue that causes "too much".

 

Excali has 2 CCs, an escape button, and a combo builder

Valkyr has 1 single target ranged-damage/CC/escape but it needs love cause its so weak and wonky,

she has 1 aoe CC though it's reletively short range,

she has 1 light CC/defense/offense buff,

and she has an ult that makes her invincible so a lot of folks just don't use it.

 

So basically she has 2 good powers going for her right now.

maybe if they fixed her other 2 powers....

see where I'm going with that?

 

Stop right there-etc

No. Don't "stop right there" taking the first few sentences out of context. Instead take my whole post into account. 

At no point did I say that other frames aren't changed after their introduction, I clarified the difference between how one frame (Valkyr) was introduced compared to what she became after later changes to her and to the a core system of the game. 

I blatantly said she was introduced with flaws so I'm clearly not even close to assuming she was released as intended overall.

Though I do suggest that based on the combination of her introduction state and her flavor text/video that "tanky tank" was not her intent.

 

I said her current state is the result of a combination of her later changes and melee 2.0. (lifestrike is part of melee 2.0)

Namely the <armor/rage/channel/lifestrike loop> that makes her super sustainable and pretty hard hitting.

Looking at any one piece alone or taking any piece out and she is no longer super tanky, no longer effectively play as she does now.

But here is the thing-

Not everybody is quite happy with how she plays now. (With two of her powers needing either love or a rework. ugh)

Not everyone thinks that the buffs she got were the buffs she needed. (certainly not those early adopters who asked for something else)

Not everyone feels that the changes brought her in the direction she is described as. (she is not remotely described as tanky tank)

As in-

You like how she was changed, some folks don't. Both preferences are valid.

But regardless of preference, her description and her kit aren't quite matching up.

 

Sure If all DE did was lower valkyr's armor and call it a day..yes she would be obsoleted. But I'm not suggesting that single change is the right fix for her. I'm suggesting a larger list of fixes so she would would become the class she was billed to be. Which is not a class that is "tougher than rhino" (at least not outside her ult mode) but a class that is not as tough but more DPS heavy than rhino. 

 

In a nutshell-

My point was that she needed some changes but the ones she got aren't necessarily the ones that brought her closer to how she is described.

And how she is described may very well be the best example of what her intended design really is.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

So were in agreement that Rhino does not need godmode back via either scaling absorption iron skin or the original incarnation right?

 

DR added to IS based on armor sounds about right correct?

 

Ok just wanted something ON TOPIC once in awhile lol

[Azawarau]

 

 

Released with 200 armor actually. DE tripled it!

In fact the video still shows 200 armor rating...heh 

https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Valkyr

 

The combination of those things is the issue that causes "too much".

 

Valkyr has 1 single target ranged-damage/CC/escape but it needs love cause its so weak and wonky,

she has 1 aoe CC though it's reletively short range,

she has 1 light CC/defense/offense buff,

and she has an ult that makes her invincible so a lot of folks just don't use it.

 

So basically she has 2 good powers going for her right now.

maybe if they fixed her other 2 powers....

see where I'm going with that?

 

No. Don't "stop right there" taking the first few sentences out of context. Instead take my whole post into account. 

At no point did I say that other frames aren't changed after their introduction, I clarified the difference between how one frame (Valkyr) was introduced compared to what she became after later changes to her and to the a core system of the game. 

I blatantly said she was introduced with flaws so I'm clearly not even close to assuming she was released as intended overall.

Though I do suggest that based on the combination of her introduction state and her flavor text/video that "tanky tank" was not her intent.

 

I said her current state is the result of a combination of her later changes and melee 2.0. (lifestrike is part of melee 2.0)

Namely the <armor/rage/channel/lifestrike loop> that makes her super sustainable and pretty hard hitting.

Looking at any one piece alone or taking any piece out and she is no longer super tanky, no longer effectively play as she does now.

But here is the thing-

Not everybody is quite happy with how she plays now. (With two of her powers needing either love or a rework. ugh)

Not everyone thinks that the buffs she got were the buffs she needed. (certainly not those early adopters who asked for something else)

Not everyone feels that the changes brought her in the direction she is described as. (she is not remotely described as tanky tank)

As in-

You like how she was changed, some folks don't. Both preferences are valid.

But regardless of preference, her description and her kit aren't quite matching up.

 

Sure If all DE did was lower valkyr's armor and call it a day..yes she would be obsoleted. But I'm not suggesting that single change is the right fix for her. I'm suggesting a larger list of fixes so she would would become the class she was billed to be. Which is not a class that is "tougher than rhino" (at least not outside her ult mode) but a class that is not as tough but more DPS heavy than rhino. 

 

In a nutshell-

My point was that she needed some changes but the ones she got aren't necessarily the ones that brought her closer to how she is described.

And how she is described may very well be the best example of what her intended design really is.

 

Wait wait

 

Rip line as an escape is obsoleted by melee entirely already. Honestly that power needs a huge change to be any kind of useful

 

Her CC isnt a CC . Its a self buff with a CC tacked on

 

Excali has an actual CC with RB and an actual escape tool with the invisibility from SJ

 

Valkyr can psuedo these things but theyll never be as effective as Excaliburs

 

Rage is part of the infinite energy loop issue

 

Without rage life strike wouldnt be nearly as sustainable as it is

 

If you remove rage life strike is fine. If you remove life strike rage has other issues it causes

 

Im not saying rage is the problem just to say it

 

Youre saying she was introduced with flaws and dont like the changes shes received based on flavor text

 

I could go into bias but im going to ask again

 

What is wrong with valkyr now outside of hysteria being broken and Ripline being obsoleted?

 

Does you not like the way she plays or the role she has? Is she broken or really in need of drastic change?

[Bobtm]

 I never ask for any nerfs, I only ask that a frame be buffed up to the level it belongs when I find it lacking in its supposed specialty.  Ignoring procs and knockdowns is worthless when a single hit from a high level enemy takes it down.  It needs to last long enough for that invulnerability to knockdowns to actually mean something, while still providing enough resistance to make Rhino something other than flimsy.

 

There's a bit of an issue here, for one thing;  You find it lacking... not everyone is you clearly  :p  Iron Skin is a pretty remarkable ability all in all, it's a bit silly how people expect it to be a literal on-demand god mode button when there shouldn't be such a thing.

 

If you're at a level in play where a single hit does +2000 damage as you'd need to take that much for a single glancing bullet to take out IS then you've gone beyond the realm of where balance matters.  If other frames can tank something like that idiotically then the issue isn't with Rhino, it's with other frames being broken.  Of course that would be if it were "in a bubble" but the only frames capable of doing so have limiters upon these traits.  Mesa only reducing bullet damage, Mirage only being able to do so whilst in shadows, and Valkyr having to lock her self into melee mode for a set period of time based on build.

 

I didn't mention Trinity... Trinity has had enough mention for a while to come however, it can't be too enjoyable to play a frame who is constantly in a state of change/rebalancing.

 

In its current iteration, Iron Skin is not about facetanking.  That's perfectly fine, it's a really grand skill if you play it to its strengths.  Rather than turning off your brain and wandering, still try avoiding all damage even whilst having IS up, it'll allow you to survive skirmishes much longer than any other frame while incurring literally no damage or proc.  It's a grand ability when used mindfully, very strong for a 2 which is gnarly.

 

Another part to note here is what I just mentioned, Iron Skin is a 2.  While there are some minor outliers, generally our abilities' usefulness and "power" goes in line with their number incrementally.  Iron Skin is a 2, you're constantly comparing its raw number power to 3s and 4s.  Of course it's going to come out weaker in purely numeric realms in this point, because it should.  A lot of times 1s, 2s, and 3s can outshine 4s when looked at from a utility/creative use standpoint.  There are also times where 1s and 2s outshine both 3s and 4s in that same realm.  Beyond that still there are times where even 1s can outshine 2s, 3s, and 4,s when used in creative ways.

 

That, that is what balance truely is.  Raw incremental power may be innately higher on higher ranking skills.  But through proper use of mechanics lower powered skills can still prove to be very useful.  Not every frame has that currently, but some do.  It'll be gnarly if Warframe ever gets to a place where all frames' kits work like that.  Having a full list of abilities which can all provide active an interesting usability.

 

No, it's a warframe parity issue.  If one tank can do it, all tanks should be able to do it.  That's just simple parity, and it IS balance.

 

Yup, because every frame's inherent variables are totally identical in every way.... wait.  They're not?

 

Last I checked Mirage didn't have supportive capabilities for her team in some grand way.  You're honing in on one little facet of a given frame's kit and ignoring all outliers solely to suit your personal vendetta only because you want Rhino to do specifically what you want.

 

Rhino has always been a bruiser, Codex entry be darned.  It wouldn't be the first time a Codex entry was off-point and it certainly won't be the last.  If Rhino were to be totally reworked into an actual tank then sure, his Iron Skin would likely become stronger and he'd lose a lot of his current utility and probably become slower to match.

 

What you're asking for isn't balance.  You just want specific things to meet your personal specifications and nothing more while ignoring the entire picture.

 

Yes, exactly.

 

Especially considering it's easier to buff one or two frames than to nerf five.

 

Here is where it all ends.  This is legitimately incorrect.  Not a matter of opinion here, or anything of subjective nature.  Buffing everything is a flawed methodology that doesn't work in the real world.  The end.

[Thaumatos]

Defenses do need to be rebalanced

 

Life strike isnt the issue, Rage is

 

Id like to see how far your Excali goes without RB or ally CC

 

Enemies up to 35 are doable with most any frame wiht life strike

 

After 40 youre going to need CC or damage mitigation of some kind

1. Nothing is considered balanced after 40

2. My xcal solos with no prob without cc and with life strike.

3. Rage isn't the issue, without Rage I can still survive due to life strike alone. LS is a band aid to a poorly fleshed out melee system...just like all life leech

[Azawarau]

1. Nothing is considered balanced after 40

2. My xcal solos with no prob without cc and with life strike.

3. Rage isn't the issue, without Rage I can still survive due to life strike alone. LS is a band aid to a poorly fleshed out melee system...just like all life leech

Without rage life strike would e an emergency heal rather than a spam

 

Considering the loss in channeling efficiency it isnt hard to see itd be a tough choice without rage

 

Rage however adds to the inverse QT, rage that a few frames can use to loop heal and keep max energy without life strike

 

Most famously trinity

[Thaumatos]

Without rage life strike would e an emergency heal rather than a spam

 

Considering the loss in channeling efficiency it isnt hard to see itd be a tough choice without rage

 

Rage however adds to the inverse QT, rage that a few frames can use to loop heal and keep max energy without life strike

 

Most famously trinity

No, I agree that Rage exacerbates the issue.  LS is still a problem within itself though.  Adding life leech to any game usually is a result from poor defense/offense balance.  Trust me though, without Rage LS is viable as a melee band-aid.  I just hate it! :p

 

It does add to inverse Quick Thinking...they brought that loophole back.  Maybe the solution is an internal cooldown on QT (I said the 'c' word...don't kill me!).

 

Edit:

 

DE has done tremendously well with Warframe in all aspects shooter-related.  Its the RPG-style stuff that is making it wonky.  Skills, skill combinations, melee, damage enhancers, etc.  I think they need to treat this game more like an RPG and less like a shooter with AoEs.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Ronyn]

Rip line as an escape is obsoleted by melee entirely already. Honestly that power needs a huge change to be any kind of useful

Conceptually, ripline it should be great for traversal, both escape and initiation, as well as pulling enemies into melee range at will.

It's a wonderful distance control tool conceptually....and if it did solid damage it would also function as a ranged attack.

So it SHOULD be a perfect addition to a melee focused frame. Should be....

Unfortunately It's execution is slowly animated, weak and fiddly. If it was faster, harder hitting, and easier to connect with...

it would be awesome. This move should not be left in its current state.

 

Her CC isnt a CC . Its a self buff with a CC tacked on

Paralsys is a shortish range CC and damage ability. It can stun lock groups of enemies...its a CC.

 

Warcry is a self buff and a 25 meter ranged aoe, TEAM buff, with slight CC/debuff-> Slows enemies movement and attack speed. 

Of course that the buff is situational. The frames with good armor using melee or close range powers get great benefit, frames with low armor and who use guns or ranged powers don't get anything.

 

 

Valkyr can psuedo these things but theyll never be as effective as Excaliburs

Indeed. These two frames are certainly meant to have different strengths.

For one thing I am all for valkyr being way tougher than excaliber considering he is better at CC....

but giving her nearly ten times his armor (65 vs 600) while leaving two of her moves in shambles (ripline/hysteria)  is not how I think it should go. 

 

Youre saying she was introduced with flaws and dont like the changes shes received based on flavor text

I'm saying she was introduced with flaws (A bit too squishy, ripline was weak and fiddly, paralsys took too much shields for too little damage, warcry was generally fine, hysteria was slow/weak/absurd invincibility) and I don't like the changes she received because they did not address half of her problems (they did improve the shield/damage ratio of paralysys, went overboard with her armor and eventually improved hysteria's damage a bit and its animations a lot) AND because it does not fit the flavor text/video.

 

I could go into bias but im going to ask again

What is wrong with valkyr now outside of hysteria being broken and Ripline being obsoleted?

Does you not like the way she plays or the role she has? Is she broken or really in need of drastic change?

I consider two out of four powers being utterly jacked up as clear a need for serious change.

As I have described before:

My stance is that Valkyr's capability as a melee dps frame should be achieved through the use of the combination of her stats and all 4 powers.  

Right now we have to rely on her base stats too much to do the melee dps role largely because 2 out of 4 moves are bad.

This has created a sort of "passive tank" role (as you described) instead of the rushing-around-damage-dealer-who unleashes chaos on the battlefeild...that her total moveset implies an d her flavor text/video describes.

Also, as an overall, I believe she should be a bit less adept at taking hits and a bit more adept at dishing them out.

 

Rage is part of the infinite energy loop issue

Without rage life strike wouldnt be nearly as sustainable as it is

If you remove rage life strike is fine. If you remove life strike rage has other issues it causes

Im not saying rage is the problem just to say it

You said "life strike isnt the issue, rage is". I clarified that it is the combination of things that is the issue.

If you remove any one of those things the situation changes quite a bit.

But yes I know you have an issue with rage itself.  I don't view rage, by itself, as an issue.

I think it's certainly useful but not overpowered or bad in most cases.

I also don't view lifestrike, by itself, as an issue.

I think it's certainly useful but not overpowered or bad in most cases.

It is only the combined use of those things on a frame with an excessive armor rating that becomes a problem.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

After 40 youre going to need CC or damage mitigation of some kind

 

1. Nothing is considered balanced after 40

Comes back to this issue often doesn't it?

If level 40 is the end that means one thing, but if level 50 or 60 is the end it changes the conversation. 

either way we need to keep it consistent. We cant hold one frame to the standard of level 40 end game and another to the standard of level 60 end game. So which one are we working with here? 40,50,60? 

[Ronyn]

Rhino has always been a bruiser, Codex entry be darned.  It wouldn't be the first time a Codex entry was off-point and it certainly won't be the last.  If Rhino were to be totally reworked into an actual tank then sure, his Iron Skin would likely become stronger and he'd lose a lot of his current utility and probably become slower to match.

There is a problem with this section here.

You say he has always been a bruiser, then describe what a tank would be like (stronger iron skin, less utility,slower) if that is what they wanted, which is exactly how rhino use to be before the reworks and vanguard helmet.

 

Seems that there is always a sort of.....slant..that gets applied here.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[Hypernaut1]

Comes back to this issue often doesn't it?

If level 40 is the end that means one thing, but if level 50 or 60 is the end it changes the conversation. 

either way we need to keep it consistent. We cant hold one frame to the standard of level 40 end game and another to the standard of level 60 end game. So which one are we working with here? 40,50,60? 

exactly, i think at a certain point, its not necessary to balance a frame to be viable anymore. any wave after 40 is just icing on the cake. Not all frames or playstyles will be able to make it beyond that.

[Thaumatos]

Comes back to this issue often doesn't it?

If level 40 is the end that means one thing, but if level 50 or 60 is the end it changes the conversation. 

either way we need to keep it consistent. We cant hold one frame to the standard of level 40 end game and another to the standard of level 60 end game. So which one are we working with here? 40,50,60? 

I'm not holding anyone to the standard of anything beyond 40.  I'm of the ilk that we shouldn't be considering 41+ "balanced" content to compare anyone until DE takes another look at it.

 

We can discuss which frame, what methods, and how long of any endless mission, but it doesn't get anywhere.  Endless is meant to be ridiculously OP after a while.  We can't peg anything anywhere off in the unknown.  If DE says content is meant to be balanced to 40, it should be equally accessible to all gear and all playstyles up until that point.

 

Edit:

 

Once people start saying "Well I got 2h in T4D...dur de durr de durrr..." you're into the realm of what frames, what people, what communication, what builds, etc etc.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Azawarau]

No, I agree that Rage exacerbates the issue.  LS is still a problem within itself though.  Adding life leech to any game usually is a result from poor defense/offense balance.  Trust me though, without Rage LS is viable as a melee band-aid.  I just hate it! :p

 

It does add to inverse Quick Thinking...they brought that loophole back.  Maybe the solution is an internal cooldown on QT (I said the 'c' word...don't kill me!).

 

Edit:

 

DE has done tremendously well with Warframe in all aspects shooter-related.  Its the RPG-style stuff that is making it wonky.  Skills, skill combinations, melee, damage enhancers, etc.  I think they need to treat this game more like an RPG and less like a shooter with AoEs.

What exactly is bad about it if i may ask?

 

Conceptually, ripline it should be great for traversal, both escape and initiation, as well as pulling enemies into melee range at will.

It's a wonderful distance control tool conceptually....and if it did solid damage it would also function as a ranged attack.

So it SHOULD be a perfect addition to a melee focused frame. Should be....

Unfortunately It's execution is slowly animated, weak and fiddly. If it was faster, harder hitting, and easier to connect with...

it would be awesome. This move should not be left in its current state.

 

Paralsys is a shortish range CC and damage ability. It can stun lock groups of enemies...its a CC.

 

Warcry is a self buff and a 25 meter ranged aoe, TEAM buff, with slight CC/debuff-> Slows enemies movement and attack speed. 

Of course that the buff is situational. The frames with good armor using melee or close range powers get great benefit, frames with low armor and who use guns or ranged powers don't get anything.

 

 

Indeed. These two frames are certainly meant to have different strengths.

For one thing I am all for valkyr being way tougher than excaliber considering he is better at CC....

but giving her nearly ten times his armor (65 vs 600) while leaving two of her moves in shambles (ripline/hysteria)  is not how I think it should go. 

 

I'm saying she was introduced with flaws (A bit too squishy, ripline was weak and fiddly, paralsys took too much shields for too little damage, warcry was generally fine, hysteria was slow/weak/absurd invincibility) and I don't like the changes she received because they did not address half of her problems (they did improve the shield/damage ratio of paralysys, went overboard with her armor and eventually improved hysteria's damage a bit and its animations a lot) AND because it does not fit the flavor text/video.

 

I consider two out of four powers being utterly jacked up as clear a need for serious change.

As I have described before:

My stance is that Valkyr's capability as a melee dps frame should be achieved through the use of the combination of her stats and all 4 powers.  

Right now we have to rely on her base stats too much to do the melee dps role largely because 2 out of 4 moves are bad.

This has created a sort of "passive tank" role (as you described) instead of the rushing-around-damage-dealer-who unleashes chaos on the battlefeild...that her total moveset implies an d her flavor text/video describes.

Also, as an overall, I believe she should be a bit less adept at taking hits and a bit more adept at dishing them out.

 

You said "life strike isnt the issue, rage is". I clarified that it is the combination of things that is the issue.

If you remove any one of those things the situation changes quite a bit.

But yes I know you have an issue with rage itself.  I don't view rage, by itself, as an issue.

I think it's certainly useful but not overpowered or bad in most cases.

I also don't view lifestrike, by itself, as an issue.

I think it's certainly useful but not overpowered or bad in most cases.

It is only the combined use of those things on a frame with an excessive armor rating that becomes a problem.

Ripline was okish before

 

A bit slow and very difficultt o aim but it had a job at least

 

Air attacks obsoleted it though .And as much as ib love and use air attacks i dont like the way ripline and other mobility powers got the copter treatent

 

I feel like its best to make ripline more offensive of CC focused rather than adding more mobility that isnt needed

 

Youve got me on paralysis being a CC. But its nowhere near the kind of CCC RB has. TBH as a CC it dont find it useful. Personally elee CCs in front of me enough that paralysis isnt needed. As a finish opener its amazing though and a quick CC stopper

 

Also emergency super heal VIA finisher. Though it is a CC its rather poor at it

 

Ive always felt excali needed more armor. Actually most frames should have more armor. At least enough to make a notable difference with steel fiber

 

What exactly doesnt it fit in her flavor text and video? Im not seeing it. Refer to my valkyr the berserker video where shes berserking fairly well

 

And for the next paragraph...What? She is a rush around the battlefield that creates chaos. With just her armor ,warcry, and paralysis she can pull that off.

 

Her 1 and 4 being bad doesnt mean she isnt doing what you just said. Her remaining powers can be reworked to compliment that cant they?

 

 

 

Comes back to this issue often doesn't it?

If level 40 is the end that means one thing, but if level 50 or 60 is the end it changes the conversation. 

either way we need to keep it consistent. We cant hold one frame to the standard of level 40 end game and another to the standard of level 60 end game. So which one are we working with here? 40,50,60? 

Lvl 40 isnt the end

 

Its the beginning of the end

 

Lvl 60 serves as a good end

[Azawarau]

exactly, i think at a certain point, its not necessary to balance a frame to be viable anymore. any wave after 40 is just icing on the cake. Not all frames or playstyles will be able to make it beyond that.

 

 

I'm not holding anyone to the standard of anything beyond 40.  I'm of the ilk that we shouldn't be considering 41+ "balanced" content to compare anyone until DE takes another look at it.

 

We can discuss which frame, what methods, and how long of any endless mission, but it doesn't get anywhere.  Endless is meant to be ridiculously OP after a while.  We can't peg anything anywhere off in the unknown.  If DE says content is meant to be balanced to 40, it should be equally accessible to all gear and all playstyles up until that point.

 

Edit:

 

Once people start saying "Well I got 2h in T4D...dur de durr de durrr..." you're into the realm of what frames, what people, what communication, what builds, etc etc.

Are you two talking wave 40 or level 40?

 

There may be a miscommunication here

 

BTW

 

OP abandoned Troll ship like i said last night people

 

Ill be making a new thread for tank discussion since we seem to need one

[Ronyn]

Ripline was okish before

A bit slow and very difficultt o aim but it had a job at least

Air attacks obsoleted it though .And as much as ib love and use air attacks i dont like the way ripline and other mobility powers got the copter treatent

I feel like its best to make ripline more offensive of CC focused rather than adding more mobility that isnt needed

I see what you're saying. I've just always found it to be far under its potential.

back when it was more useful at mobility it still sucked in terms of damage and yanking enemies. (it still one shots early game though)

Now-a-days I use it in conjunction with air melee to do some crazy mobility stuff.

I really like the mobility aspect of it....(attack on titan up in here!) i just wish it did its other stuff better.

 

Youve got me on paralysis being a CC. But its nowhere near the kind of CCC RB has. TBH as a CC it dont find it useful. Personally elee CCs in front of me enough that paralysis isnt needed. As a finish opener its amazing though and a quick CC stopper

Also emergency super heal VIA finisher. Though it is a CC its rather poor at it

Generally agreed. Though I've done some paralays focused CC builds to see what certain people are so excited about...

it works just fine but its not my style of build. 

 

Ive always felt excali needed more armor. Actually most frames should have more armor. At least enough to make a notable difference with steel fiber

This would be a good conversation to have in itself.

 

What exactly doesnt it fit in her flavor text and video? Im not seeing it. Refer to my valkyr the berserker video where shes berserking fairly well

And for the next paragraph...What? She is a rush around the battlefield that creates chaos. With just her armor ,warcry, and paralysis she can pull that off.

Her 1 and 4 being bad doesnt mean she isnt doing what you just said. Her remaining powers can be reworked to compliment that cant they?

It's not to say that Valkyr isn't "berzerking" or isn't fulfilling MOST of her described <rush around melee-dps> role. 

 

It's more that- 

1: she has become so effective in another role (tank) that if they were to flesh out what she is missing in ripline and hysteria she would likely be out of balance. I feel like she us supposed to be among the most mobile, the highest damage dealers in the game, she cant also be the tankiest frame in the game too. Somethings got to give. It's kind of like how trinity is supposed to be the ultimate healer/support frame but accidentally also became the uber-tanky frame. 

2: I feel she the <armor/rage/lifesteal> loop has made her too energy efficient. 

It's why I suggested a shift in where her defense potential comes from in our earlier discussions.

Granted, too much energy is an issue for many frames from other things. I'm just speaking about her issue at the moment.

And I know there are other ways to change Valkyrs survivability...like breaking the ability to create that loop by removing rage and/lifestrike.

 

Now I realize not everyone agrees with all that and that's cool. That's just my personal take on it.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[Masyaf47]

Yeah, in T4 Survival after 60 mins it is getting hard. But, rhino is still a good tank. 

[Ronyn]

 

 

exactly, i think at a certain point, its not necessary to balance a frame to be viable anymore. any wave after 40 is just icing on the cake. Not all frames or playstyles will be able to make it beyond that.

 

I'm not holding anyone to the standard of anything beyond 40.  I'm of the ilk that we shouldn't be considering 41+ "balanced" content to compare anyone until DE takes another look at it.

 

We can discuss which frame, what methods, and how long of any endless mission, but it doesn't get anywhere.  Endless is meant to be ridiculously OP after a while. We can't peg anything anywhere off in the unknown.  If DE says content is meant to be balanced to 40, it should be equally accessible to all gear and all playstyles up until that point.

Edit:

Once people start saying "Well I got 2h in T4D...dur de durr de durrr..." you're into the realm of what frames, what people, what communication, what builds, etc etc.

 

 

Lvl 40 isnt the end

Its the beginning of the end

Lvl 60 serves as a good end

I see we have a bit of a difference in where the end is going on here....heh