Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Eric1738]

well, rhino skin is the extra layer of health to let you response to enemy threats. i'm not sure about other players, but for me the end game tool for rhino is definitely Roar. i always build around roar for late game, not iron skin.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Eric1738

[Ronyn]

Rhino has never been a tank.

Rhino was born to be a CCer but when mods came into play  people ended up building around 1 power. Rhino ended up being just IS because you could make that sucker last long and the cost was cheap. Specially if you added energy mods to the mix. 

People turned him into a tank because of what they could make him do.

Rhino was a tank. De built him for that role. They said it themselves in the video.

Iron skin was a staple ability that people modded for of course. And that was the cornerstone that made him a tank.

Yes, CC was part of that focus....but him becoming primarily a CCer was once he could spam Stomp over and over.

That was the result of excess energy and mod set ups that allow us players to cast our ults for such low cost that we can use them ALL the time. 

Edited January 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

Oh yes some descriptions are off. (technically I've played volt with pure melee and tons of spells)

But what is your point exactly?

That we should entirely ignore the flavor texts and videos because they might be off?

If we do that how do we decided what each frame is meant to be?

By whatever each person happens to want a frame to be?

In which case who decided what is the right or wrong direction for tweaks and reworks? 

 

In my view the flavor texts and videos aren't perfect but they are still the closest thing we have to an official statement of DE's intended design. Also, it helps to take into account everything that the flavor texts and videos say to get a sense of what they are after....one line out of context may be wild or exaggerated. But taken as a whole things are usually clear enough.

 

 

There are way more than that. But one wont see them if they expect everything to fit within the trinity or whatever....

 

 

Invincibility means she can facetank at any level that isn't ludicrous.

I'm not championing invincibility...I'm just being real about what it does.

 

 

It is another construction area of DE. You see a Lamborghini, but you wouldn't expect a tractor because of the very old advertising. Ok, this example is a bit exaggerating, but I hope you get my point. Two years ago, warframe was very different.

They either have to make a complete overhaul of their stuff to match their old descriptions or vice versa. And don't remember me of all those topics from over a year ago, where everyone wanted to change Volt into a bland damage dealer because of the discription.

 

Please give me examples for fleshed out roles and what that roles are. I only see frames with a ratio between CC/dmg/support/utility.

Edited January 17, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Bobtm]

 

 I hear you but I feel like things have gotten off track here.

The primary problem you speak of is important=if he is sturdy enough to facetank what is the drawback and the potential for failure.

I don't believe that has lead us to a binary "remake/ruin rhino OR make a new tank frame" situation.

I'd say the main component here is finding the right rework for iron skin...

Something that offers the needed defenses but requires the right skills, timing and actions to make function.

Now I'm not saying that is particularly easy. I do think it can be done though.

 

Unfortunately this thread started off on a bad foot and has only become more controversial and divided as it went along.

So I'm thinking this just isn't the place to figure this issue out.

In my view the flavor texts and videos aren't perfect but they are still the closest thing we have to an official statement of DE's intended design.

 

 

You do have some solid points here, I think the main issue which has plague this particular thread is the sort of single-minded focus on facetanking specifically above all else and isolated from all else.  I also agree with you that it likely could be done with Rhino, but it would end up likely needing to change his other abilities as well, we have to remember that his IS is his 2 at the moment.  Giving him a 2 with arguably too high of power would distort his power balance and mean that his other abilities would in turn need tweaked, basically it's a lot of work on what is currently a fairly well balanced frame.

 

The timing thing really piques my interest, there isn't much in Warframe currently that really speaks to timing stylef focus.  The only major one (there are others) is Limbo, which is partly why I love him so darn much.  Having timing based tanking would be a really interesting thing...  Seriously there are a lot of potentially cool ways to do a solid tank in Warframe.  While tanking isn't a role I generally fall into as a player, I really would love to see what kind of a solid tank DE could implement.

 

This thread is... a bit troubling overall but if we can get past the less desirable points I'd say why throw the baby out with the bathwater and start over?  Things do seem to have turned to a degree as of late, so there's some positive to come of this.

 

As far as the flavor texts and other such things... I have a strange mindset regarding this sort of thing.  I don't say this out of disrespect of course, I really dig DE, but a lot of times developers themselves have a less than stellar grasp on how things play out in gameplay reality versus a bubble.  Of course this is to be expected, we players vastly outnumber them and we're always cross-referencing eachothers' play data, it's effectively impossible for them to keep up in this particular realm of understanding.  What this basically boils down to is simple;  Descriptions are something to be viewed as fluff in a general sense, the raw numerical stats on given things are what we need to look at in tandem with gameplay usage to come to conclusions.

 

Of course the above is subjective as a point.  There's literally nothing you could say to change my mind in that realm as it's something which has become apparent to me across playing a stupid amount of games where the developers regularly stated things about the game that are a far cry from being true.  Devs are awesome, I love what they do, but they're not infallible.

 

The Volt thing is a prime example of this, he's never been an alternative to gunplay in any possible realm.  Volt is a team-supportive style frame which augments the player in whatever their chosen realm of play is, be it melee, gunplay, or both in tandem.  His abilities speak clearly to this notation, especially his 1, 2, and 3, with his 4 being the only one that enters the world of radial nuke.  Nothing aside his 4 has ever spoken to the in-game notation of what Volt is.

[Ronyn]

It is another construction area of DE. You see a Lamborghini, but you wouldn't expect a tractor because of the old advertising. Ok, this example is a bit exaggerating, but I hope you get my point. Two years ago, warframe was very different.

They either have to make a complete overhaul of their stuff to match their old descriptions or vice versa. And don't remember me of all those topics from over a year ago, where everyone wanted to change Volt into a bland damage dealer because of the discription.

I'm not downplaying how much the game has changed, I'm suggesting that it's reasonable to expect the frames to change along with the game to make sure they keep their intended playstyle. Some frames have survived the transitions with their playstyles more intact then others.

 

Please give me examples for fleshed out roles and what that roles are. I only see frames with a ratio between CC/dmg/support/utility.

A frames roles are largely defined by core playstyle despite their being aspects of other playstyles with it. 

Now if we are going to start classifying roles we need to get specific. "Support" and "Utility" are super vague terms. 

Ugh...This is kind of expanding into another whole conversation. I think we had better save it for another thread.

And try to stay on Rhino.

[Ronyn]

You do have some solid points here, I think the main issue which has plague this particular thread is the sort of single-minded focus on facetanking specifically above all else and isolated from all else.  I also agree with you that it likely could be done with Rhino, but it would end up likely needing to change his other abilities as well, we have to remember that his IS is his 2 at the moment.  Giving him a 2 with arguably too high of power would distort his power balance and mean that his other abilities would in turn need tweaked, basically it's a lot of work on what is currently a fairly well balanced frame.

 

The timing thing really piques my interest, there isn't much in Warframe currently that really speaks to timing stylef focus.  The only major one (there are others) is Limbo, which is partly why I love him so darn much.  Having timing based tanking would be a really interesting thing...  Seriously there are a lot of potentially cool ways to do a solid tank in Warframe.  While tanking isn't a role I generally fall into as a player, I really would love to see what kind of a solid tank DE could implement.

 

This thread is... a bit troubling overall but if we can get past the less desirable points I'd say why throw the baby out with the bathwater and start over?  Things do seem to have turned to a degree as of late, so there's some positive to come of this.

I find Rhino's kit to have room for some measured improvements before it becomes overpowered.

That is to say I think iron skin (if made right) could push him into a true tank role without needing to take any of the strength away from his other moves. But all that would really have to come out in playtesting. I have some new ideas on this....but I'll consider them a bit longer before I bring them up on the boards.

 

As far as the flavor texts and other such things... I have a strange mindset regarding this sort of thing.  I don't say this out of disrespect of course, I really dig DE, but a lot of times developers themselves have a less than stellar grasp on how things play out in gameplay reality versus a bubble.  Of course this is to be expected, we players vastly outnumber them and we're always cross-referencing eachothers' play data, it's effectively impossible for them to keep up in this particular realm of understanding.  What this basically boils down to is simple;  Descriptions are something to be viewed as fluff in a general sense, the raw numerical stats on given things are what we need to look at in tandem with gameplay usage to come to conclusions.

 

Of course the above is subjective as a point.  There's literally nothing you could say to change my mind in that realm as it's something which has become apparent to me across playing a stupid amount of games where the developers regularly stated things about the game that are a far cry from being true.  Devs are awesome, I love what they do, but they're not infallible.

 

The Volt thing is a prime example of this, he's never been an alternative to gunplay in any possible realm.  Volt is a team-supportive style frame which augments the player in whatever their chosen realm of play is, be it melee, gunplay, or both in tandem.  His abilities speak clearly to this notation, especially his 1, 2, and 3, with his 4 being the only one that enters the world of radial nuke.  Nothing aside his 4 has ever spoken to the in-game notation of what Volt is.

Developers aren't perfect, players outnumber them by far...

but a lot of what developers do is set the esign directive for a frame then tweak, modify and rework things as they go to get that frame in line with their vision. They cross reference player feedback just as much as us players do. They also have player data to look at.

In the end, they are quite capable of getting a frame in the general direction of what they want most of the time.

 

To me, the Volt thing is a perfect example of what happens when we let ourselves take one line and make too much of it...

while discounting how much of everything else said is accurate. The video talks about how tactical he can be and gives pretty fair descriptions of how his powers play out.  Granted, the whole "alternative to gunplay" line is overselling it. But it's not to say that combining his melee buff from one ability, with offensive power of two of his abilities, with the defensive powers of another ability..that volt cant play with minimal gun combat.

But again that line is just a small part of what is expressed throughout.

See what I mean- https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Volt

[Holeypaladin]

Desecrate, chaos, snow globe, and speed/electric shield should tell you that the number of an ability doesn't really portray its power level or importance to a warframe.  Many warframes are built around their third power, some around their second.  It seems the only power no frame is usually build around is their first (at least I can't think of any).

 

Rhino has gone from being a 2222222 spam to a 33334334 spam, but that's largely because his second power is pretty worthless at the endgame level.

 

Anyway, Volt is amazing with melee since speed boosts his melee attack speed.  And technically melee can be considered a potent alternative to gunplay... so he's capable of living up to that role if you choose to do so.  Heck the only warframe better at melee than Volt is Valkyr.

 

Regardless, I'm not alone in thinking that tanking should be a viable option at endgame level, without relying entirely on CC.  Not every frame has CC, so to say CC is the only viable option in Warframe is to call over half the frames in the game worthless.  I'd rather they not be worthless.  If the game was meant to be played with focus on CC, the only frames in the game would be Nova, Vauban, Loki, and Nyx.  Considering there are like 22 frames instead of 4, I would guess that they want other options to be viable besides just CC.

 

I looked at the Rhino video, and it does say he's supposed to become "an almost unstoppable tank."  And that video isn't even that old... it was made AFTER the change to iron skin, so they're assuming it's supposed to still be effective and "Scale well" as they put it.  When it doesn't scale well at all.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[SIDESTRE4M]

I'm not downplaying how much the game has changed, I'm suggesting that it's reasonable to expect the frames to change along with the game to make sure they keep their intended playstyle. Some frames have survived the transitions with their playstyles more intact then others.

 

A frames roles are largely defined by core playstyle despite their being aspects of other playstyles with it. 

Now if we are going to start classifying roles we need to get specific. "Support" and "Utility" are super vague terms. 

Ugh...This is kind of expanding into another whole conversation. I think we had better save it for another thread.

And try to stay on Rhino.

That's right, they all have a more or less different core gameplay. To me, that's not necessarily a role. This topic has lead to this discussion.^^

 

Desecrate, chaos, snow globe, and speed/electric shield should tell you that the number of an ability doesn't really portray its power level or importance to a warframe.  Many warframes are built around their third power, some around their second.  It seems the only power no frame is usually build around is their first (at least I can't think of any).

 

Rhino has gone from being a 2222222 spam to a 33334334 spam, but that's largely because his second power is pretty worthless at the endgame level.

 

Anyway, Volt is amazing with melee since speed boosts his melee attack speed.  And technically melee can be considered a potent alternative to gunplay... so he's capable of living up to that role if you choose to do so.  Heck the only warframe better at melee than Volt is Valkyr.

 

Regardless, I'm not alone in thinking that tanking should be a viable option at endgame level, without relying entirely on CC.  Not every frame has CC, so to say CC is the only viable option in Warframe is to call over half the frames in the game worthless.  I'd rather they not be worthless.  If the game was meant to be played with focus on CC, the only frames in the game would be Nova, Vauban, Loki, and Nyx.  Considering there are like 22 frames instead of 4, I would guess that they want other options to be viable besides just CC.

 

I looked at the Rhino video, and it does say he's supposed to become "an almost unstoppable tank."  And that video isn't even that old... it was made AFTER the change to iron skin, so they're assuming it's supposed to still be effective and "Scale well" as they put it.  When it doesn't scale well at all.

 

Problem is: What you want would result in carefree Rhinoob. I'm sorry to say this, but huge damage mitigation with along CC immunity, a group damage buff to everything and a solid CC-Skill on top. You could as well ask for an easy mode.

 

And back then, melee wasn't a very big thing. It was possible with Volt, but few people understood the deeper meaning of what Volt is capapable of.

[Bobtm]

Tagged with spoilers to save space.

I find Rhino's kit to have room for some measured improvements before it becomes overpowered.

That is to say I think iron skin (if made right) could push him into a true tank role without needing to take any of the strength away from his other moves. But all that would really have to come out in playtesting. I have some new ideas on this....but I'll consider them a bit longer before I bring them up on the boards.

 

Developers aren't perfect, players outnumber them by far...

but a lot of what developers do is set the esign directive for a frame then tweak, modify and rework things as they go to get that frame in line with their vision. They cross reference player feedback just as much as us players do. They also have player data to look at.

In the end, they are quite capable of getting a frame in the general direction of what they want most of the time.

 

To me, the Volt thing is a perfect example of what happens when we let ourselves take one line and make too much of it...

while discounting how much of everything else said is accurate. The video talks about how tactical he can be and gives pretty fair descriptions of how his powers play out.  Granted, the whole "alternative to gunplay" line is overselling it. But it's not to say that combining his melee buff from one ability, with offensive power of two of his abilities, with the defensive powers of another ability..that volt cant play with minimal gun combat.

But again that line is just a small part of what is expressed throughout.

See what I mean- https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Volt

 

It seems we're at that good ol' agree to disagree phase on both fronts of this particular point.  I genuinely don't see Rhino getting any stronger with IS without throwing him out of whack.  Of course it's entirely possible I'm wrong in that as it's one of those things that's hard to judge in such a hypothetical situation.

 

As for the other situation on design intent, that's just better left at that point, I've seen so many developers say things that just don't work that it's almost become a metagame for me to find things that don't work out for my own amusement.  Like when GBX specifically declared that Crawmerax in the first Borderlands would be impossible to solo, requiring four players to take on.  I knew that was wrong before Craw was even released.

 

This stuff is definitely over in a subjectivity realm though.  It's a fun discussion none the less though.

 

Desecrate, chaos, snow globe, and speed/electric shield should tell you that the number of an ability doesn't really portray its power level or importance to a warframe.  Many warframes are built around their third power, some around their second.  It seems the only power no frame is usually build around is their first (at least I can't think of any).

 

Rhino has gone from being a 2222222 spam to a 33334334 spam, but that's largely because his second power is pretty worthless at the endgame level.

 

Anyway, Volt is amazing with melee since speed boosts his melee attack speed.  And technically melee can be considered a potent alternative to gunplay... so he's capable of living up to that role if you choose to do so.  Heck the only warframe better at melee than Volt is Valkyr.

 

Regardless, I'm not alone in thinking that tanking should be a viable option at endgame level, without relying entirely on CC.  Not every frame has CC, so to say CC is the only viable option in Warframe is to call over half the frames in the game worthless.  I'd rather they not be worthless.  If the game was meant to be played with focus on CC, the only frames in the game would be Nova, Vauban, Loki, and Nyx.  Considering there are like 22 frames instead of 4, I would guess that they want other options to be viable besides just CC.

 

I looked at the Rhino video, and it does say he's supposed to become "an almost unstoppable tank."  And that video isn't even that old... it was made AFTER the change to iron skin, so they're assuming it's supposed to still be effective and "Scale well" as they put it.  When it doesn't scale well at all.

 

You and I do not see eye to eye at all on the first point, partially I'm chalking it up to a bit of miscommunication/misunderstanding though.  You're under the impression that I've said that 1/2/3/4 are in a linear progression in terms of power, which I didn't.  Rather the lower numbered powers are generally less in terms of raw "oomph" yet still very usable on many frames with markable effects in terms of usability.  Anyways the correlation is the balance of overall strong usability amongst the spread of their kit, not just individually by number.  Rhino has a very strong 4, and a very strong 3.  His 1 has debatably niche uses, I dig it but I don't see almost any other players actively using Rhino's 1 so it's hard to say.

 

Personally speaking, I find many 1s and 2s to be some of the best skills in the game in that they are powerful without being boring.

 

As far as the tanking side of things, how much tanking is enough tanking and at what level?  This is where the deal gets tricky because it can be far too easy to allow a frame to become genuinely impossible to die while using.  The major reason this is so problematic is specifically because you can currently survive, both without CC or tanking for a very, very, very long time in Warframe.  In standard RPGs facetanking is super easy to balance around, you just give the tank laughable DPS and call it a day.  Well that notion is unlikely to go over well in Warframe.  Not sure how many players would willingly trade off 95% damage to gain 95% damage resistance.

 

To draw it in a comparative sense, we don't currently have any frames with flat DR and no drawback to that DR's usability besides Trinity (flat 75% on Link).  Her Blessing of course allows for higher DR, but it's a risk/reward type one as its value fluctuates based on heal amount as a percentage of max.  It's sort of safe to say that it's unlikely that any frame will ever see a DR rate of above 75% without incurring some form of drawback to counteract it.  Basically one cannot simply "give Rhino lots of DR" as that simply wouldn't work.

[Mak_Gohae]

Rhino was a tank. De built him for that role. They said it themselves in the video.

 

 

What video? Cause his profile video, last time i checked, said he was a CCer.

If they have recently adopted the term, because of players, it doesnt mean he was built for that.

 

Iron skin was a staple ability that people modded for of course. And that was the cornerstone that made him a tank.

 

Yes, this is what people made him to be, like i said, but that's not what the intention was.

When you have 3 cc powers i think the clues of what he is are pretty clear.

 

Yes, CC was part of that focus....but him becoming primarily a CCer was once he could spam Stomp over and over.

That was the result of excess energy and mod set ups that allow us players to cast our ults for such low cost that we can use them ALL the time.

 

He originally had 3 powers that CCed... that's not part of the focus thats THE focus.

Now that has been changed and he is just a generalist.

 

Before when there was the tree system you could get him to have 375 energy if i remember correctly.

And comparing that with Mr. "Alternative to Gunplay" Volt, he had a hard time breaking 200.

Rhino with 3 CC powers and an tremendous pool of energy clearly showed that the dude was supposed to be constantly CCing enemies instead of casting Iron Skin every 5 minutes. You dont need that much energy if the frame was created around one power that doesnt need to be used that many times in a row.

[Holeypaladin]

 

As far as the tanking side of things, how much tanking is enough tanking and at what level? 

That is the question, isn't it?

 

As far as what levels... I'd say at the very least it needs to work very well for T4E solo missions (exterminate to me is built for solo play since it's the easiest mission type) to the point where he doesn't die or lose his iron skin in one hit like he currently does to those dang lankas.  Also it should work well for T4 endless missions up to 20 mins minimum, probably 40 as well since most teams aim for that second rotation C.

 

As for how much... well, warframe durability in general probably needs to be rebalanced.  It should be as good as any existing damage reduction power in the game, but some of the damage reduction powers are incredibly OP like the 100% DR of Hysteria and the 95% of eclipse and shatter shield (situational as they may be, 95% is still way too much).

 

85% was the first attempt at revisions to iron skin, so I tend to fall back to that one.  Any lower would require further nerfs to trinity, mesa, and mirage as well.  At 85% the power scaling to eclipse and shatter shield could be removed, but if you go for something lower than 85%, further nerfs to link, hysteria, valkyr's armor (which is 81% before war cry, so around 90% with it), eclipse, and shatter shield would also be required in order to keep parity between the various damage reduction powers.

 

A lot of people dislike the idea of percentage based reduction, but to me it's the only way I can think of to let it scale into the late-game, since the current flat number is godlike at low levels but worthless at high levels.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Thaumatos]

Calling Rhino a "jack of all trades" and saying he was never intended to tank is entirely 100% subjective opinion which goes AGAINST the stated intentions of the frame in both the codex and official video.

I find it to be fact that whatever frames people don't play somehow become a "jack of all trades"

 

Somehow xcal is a "jack of all trades" frame to the people who would rather play Nova and nuke everything.  I don't understand it myself, but I know for a fact that xcal is a balance between mobility and offense.  Why?  Because it says so in his description.

 

You have to go off of what DE says, not what some random forum junkie comes up with.

[Azawarau]

its not because i say so per say, it is because non tank units out tank the tank and you cannot put that aside as if it is nothing, if anything it shows your bias that you either love or prefer these frames and jsut dont want rhino to be better at tanking that them. being the tank doesn mean you are tougher than most, it means you should be tougher than all especially a support caster and a berserker. the roles of tanks were already split, a purely defensive tank in frost and a versatile aggressive tank in rhino, do not try to include valkyr as a tank as she is a berserker type and trinity is a support caster, mesa is a damage type as is mirage, these units are not tanks.

To be fair here

 

Mirage cant effectively tank

 

Mesa needs a change and so does trinity

 

Valkyr has more EHP because shed be obsolete as is if she didnt and Rhino needs more tanking power but not the way OP thinks

[sanj66]

You don't understand what a beserker is... 

 

 

Beserker: Someone or something that becomes inraged and ignores all damage to oneself to exact a offensive outburst toward a target.

 

So Valkyr is PERFECTLY made. She has the most armor in the game to IGNORE damage, she has a invulnerability move to IGNORE damage, she has warcry which buffs her armor to IGNORE damage. She has ripline to get closer to a target to ATTACK the target. She has paralize for... idk why. I think the DE just ran out of ideas.

 

 

Mirage is perfect as well. She is incredably glassy and can't take any damage without being hurt very badly. She has the most powerful buffs with the expense for horrible stats.

 

 

Mesa is a gunslinger. So why shouldn't he have a ok stats. Its like saying since Excalibure is a swordsman he should have S#&$ty stats. x.x 

 

Loki has invisibility for the exact same reason Mirage has 90% damage immunity IN THE DARK. So he survive lategame

 

 

 

 

Please give a valid reason to buff rhino, because all your reasons so far have been very bad.

you do not seem to know what a berserker is, it ignores damage to oneself, ie it does take damage and isnt god mode and the ultimate tank, a berserker is never able to out tank a tank, the berserker just shrugs off the damage it takes to deal more damage. mirage is good except for why does she need a damage mitigation skill? also mesa? so if all these frames have skills that scale into late game why should not rhino? especially when de themselves stated him as the tank and he gets out tanked by non tanks with their mitigation skills? every single one of loki skills can scale into any tier of the game and to those who say rhino is easy to play, loki is that much easier, even without a corrupted build. why does a support frame like trinity need a skill to out tank the tank in game? why does a berserker which i clarified for you need a skill to out tank a tank as well?you all have not provided any reasons for this and that is the counter to the argument, why are non tanks able to out tank the tank and by your own word able to scale late game when the tank's skill is a static non scaling skill?

[sanj66]

Rhino has never been a tank.

Rhino was born to be a CCer but when mods came into play  people ended up building around 1 power. Rhino ended up being just IS because you could make that sucker last long and the cost was cheap. Specially if you added energy mods to the mix. 

People turned him into a tank because of what they could make him do.

he is stated by the official video for him and partially codex entry, even up to valkyr he was the most armored warframe around, if he was born to be a ccer why doesnt he have a kit like loki or vauban?

[sanj66]

What video? Cause his profile video, last time i checked, said he was a CCer.

If they have recently adopted the term, because of players, it doesnt mean he was built for that.

 

 

 

Yes, this is what people made him to be, like i said, but that's not what the intention was.

When you have 3 cc powers i think the clues of what he is are pretty clear.

 

 

 

He originally had 3 powers that CCed... that's not part of the focus thats THE focus.

Now that has been changed and he is just a generalist.

 

Before when there was the tree system you could get him to have 375 energy if i remember correctly.

And comparing that with Mr. "Alternative to Gunplay" Volt, he had a hard time breaking 200.

Rhino with 3 CC powers and an tremendous pool of energy clearly showed that the dude was supposed to be constantly CCing enemies instead of casting Iron Skin every 5 minutes. You dont need that much energy if the frame was created around one power that doesnt need to be used that many times in a row.

have=present tense, show me the 3 cc powers rhino has? he has charge a minor cc but mainly a transport skill, is a damage mitigation skill, roar a buff, and stomp a good but not great cc due to its mechanics compared to other ults, thats 2 at best counting charge.

[sanj66]

To be fair here

 

Mirage cant effectively tank

 

Mesa needs a change and so does trinity

 

Valkyr has more EHP because shed be obsolete as is if she didnt and Rhino needs more tanking power but not the way OP thinks

you were talking about the almost 60% reduction you get with 399 armor, and how great it is, then valkyr doesnt need 600 armor, it is like ronyn pointed out because her other skills are bad doesnt mean she must be made to out tank or tan insane amounts of damage, and thats why they said the armor buff and hysteria are bandaids, and that is all it really is.

[Ronyn]

What video? Cause his profile video, last time i checked, said he was a CCer.

If they have recently adopted the term, because of players, it doesnt mean he was built for that.

 

Yes, this is what people made him to be, like i said, but that's not what the intention was.

When you have 3 cc powers i think the clues of what he is are pretty clear.

 

He originally had 3 powers that CCed... that's not part of the focus thats THE focus.

Now that has been changed and he is just a generalist.

 

Before when there was the tree system you could get him to have 375 energy if i remember correctly.

And comparing that with Mr. "Alternative to Gunplay" Volt, he had a hard time breaking 200.

Rhino with 3 CC powers and an tremendous pool of energy clearly showed that the dude was supposed to be constantly CCing enemies instead of casting Iron Skin every 5 minutes. You dont need that much energy if the frame was created around one power that doesnt need to be used that many times in a row.

If you look in Rhino's flavor text/video and video you'll see it says several things. https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Rhino

Yes it says "specializing in crowd control"...

But it also says-

"Combine a mix of devastating offensive powers with formidable defensive capabilities"

"The immovable force and highly resilient", "well equipped to both deal and absorb damage" "Becomes an almost unstoppable tank"

Also worth noting=Early on charge and rhino slam hit hard enough to act just as much as damage moves as they were Crowd control.

 

Effectively Rhino tanked by rushing to the front line, being tough enough to stay in the enemies face and them kept those enemies reeling and on their backsides so allies don't get hurt and enemies are softened up. That is what people made him to be with pretty basic mod set ups because that is what he was intended to be. CC'er and tank aren't mutually exclusive. In rhino's case, he incorporates a focus on CC for the purpose of tanking. Iron skin wasn't his only "tank" aspect, it was just part of it.

(This isn't some crazy new way to look at it. Other games have classes they call tanks with a very similar slant toward cc.

Heck, look at several tanks in League of Legends. Alistar, Sejuani, Singed, Nautilus, Braum, Scion..... and then there are some of the other tanks have at least one or two CC's)

 

At any rate, the whole CC tank concept has become muddied up because of the way the game changed.

Iron skin got weaker/enemies hit harder=Rhino lost the ability to stay up front the way he use to.

Various mods to lower power costs became available/end game became mostly about CC=Rhino has to fall back on spamming stomp.

 

In a nutshell Rhino was described as a mix of offense, defense, and Crowd Control. That was accurate....but the ratios of have shifted.

Now his best trait is CC (and buffing from roar based on a percentage) because of how everything else starts to fall off in late game.

 

Overall-It is not a good thing that Warframe's endgame has become so CC-centric. Every role should retain it's flavor and viability or things end up blurring together too much.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[Azawarau]

you were talking about the almost 60% reduction you get with 399 armor, and how great it is, then valkyr doesnt need 600 armor, it is like ronyn pointed out because her other skills are bad doesnt mean she must be made to out tank or tan insane amounts of damage, and thats why they said the armor buff and hysteria are bandaids, and that is all it really is.

I Never said it was great the way youre making it out

 

I did say it was too much on top of DR and CC immunity

 

Her other skills arent bad the way you think either

 

Theyre just outdated

 

Ripleine by melee mobility and Hysteria by life strike and new defensive mods in general

[DelialFallen]

Dude I love Rhino Prime!

 

He is the Face Tank bullet sponge of awesome.

 

But his Iron Shrapnel augment does LESS damage than Nova Prime's Anti-Matter Drop augment!

 

It's not fair that Nova's Anti-Matter Absorb actually face tanks enemy fire BETTER than Rhino Prime's face but also Iron Shrapnel should absorb damage MORE and deal more damage than damage's damage Rhino Prime.  More.

 

Tank.

 

With face.

 

Make it happen, DE.

[Mak_Gohae]

have=present tense, show me the 3 cc powers rhino has? he has charge a minor cc but mainly a transport skill, is a damage mitigation skill, roar a buff, and stomp a good but not great cc due to its mechanics compared to other ults, thats 2 at best counting charge.

 

very next sentence, brah.

 

If you look in Rhino's flavor text/video and video you'll see it says several things. https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Rhino

Yes it says "specializing in crowd control"...

But it also says-

"Combine a mix of devastating offensive powers with formidable defensive capabilities"

 

Yeah, that's his original description. And yeah his powers are offensive in that they did damage and defensive in that they all knocked enemies down.

 

"The immovable force and highly resilient", "well equipped to both deal and absorb damage" "Becomes an almost unstoppable tank"

Also worth noting=Early on charge and rhino slam hit hard enough to act just as much as damage moves as they were Crowd control.

 

Survivability down not equal being a tank.

And, yes, when you equip health\shield and armor mod you can describe him as becoming a tank but that doesnt make him a tank.

Any frame that's not on the low end of stats can be described as a tank when you load them up with rank 10 everything.

 

Effectively Rhino tanked by rushing to the front line, being tough enough to stay in the enemies face and them kept those enemies reeling and on their backsides so allies don't get hurt and enemies are softened up. That is what people made him to be with pretty basic mod set ups because that is what he was intended to be. CC'er and tank aren't mutually exclusive. In rhino's case, he incorporates a focus on CC for the purpose of tanking. Iron skin wasn't his only "tank" aspect, it was just part of it.

 

Yes, we know how the average person use him.

Guess how i used him? Back when there was a tree system i only put one point of IS and you know why? Cause there was no need to put more because of his tremendous energy pool. All i did was to keep enemies "reeling on their backsides." That one point was there for revives and and hacking when i was soloing.

 

(This isn't some crazy new way to look at it. Other games have classes they call tanks with a very similar slant toward cc.

Heck, look at several tanks in League of Legends. Alistar, Sejuani, Singed, Nautilus, Braum, Scion..... and then there are some of the other tanks have at least one or two CC's)

 

I dont play this game, are the CC abilities single target? Do they have a small aoe?

 

At any rate, the whole CC tank concept has become muddied up because of the way the game changed.

Iron skin got weaker/enemies hit harder=Rhino lost the ability to stay up front the way he use to.

Various mods to lower power costs became available/end game became mostly about CC=Rhino has to fall back on spamming stomp.

 

In a nutshell Rhino was described as a mix of offense, defense, and Crowd Control. That was accurate....but the ratios of have shifted.

Now his best trait is CC (and buffing from roar based on a percentage) because of how everything else starts to fall off in late game.

 

Overall-It is not a good thing that Warframe's endgame has become so CC-centric. Every role should retain it's flavor and viability or things end up blurring together too much.

 

Yes, the people messed up Rhino because they only focused on one ability that could be cheesed and instead of learning the other powers they just complained about that one ability when it finally changed and now we have what we have. So good job, folks!

 

We could've had the CC Prince but nooooo, now we have Banshee 2.0 over here.

[sanj66]

very next sentence, brah.

 

 

Yeah, that's his original description. And yeah his powers are offensive in that they did damage and defensive in that they all knocked enemies down.

 

 

 

Survivability down not equal being a tank.

And, yes, when you equip health\shield and armor mod you can describe him as becoming a tank but that doesnt make him a tank.

Any frame that's not on the low end of stats can be described as a tank when you load them up with rank 10 everything.

 

 

 

Yes, we know how the average person use him.

Guess how i used him? Back when there was a tree system i only put one point of IS and you know why? Cause there was no need to put more because of his tremendous energy pool. All i did was to keep enemies "reeling on their backsides." That one point was there for revives and and hacking when i was soloing.

 

 

 

I dont play this game, are the CC abilities single target? Do they have a small aoe?

 

 

 

Yes, the people messed up Rhino because they only focused on one ability that could be cheesed and instead of learning the other powers they just complained about that one ability when it finally changed and now we have what we have. So good job, folks!

 

We could've had the CC Prince but nooooo, now we have Banshee 2.0 over here.

you dont seem to understand your next sentence in that post says HAD, in that sentence i pointed out you said HAVE, so again list his 3 CC skills that he currently HAS, present tense. otherwise you just contradicted yourself with your very own english there.

[gaurdianaq]

I still think the sollution is as follows, reduce iron skins health it gives you to like 400-600 at max rank, give it the same 4 seconds of damage absorbing as snow globe, and give it a hard aggro to pull enemy fire onto you, this would make it so that it's not god mode in early game, but also make it scale with late game.

[Mak_Gohae]

you dont seem to understand your next sentence in that post says HAD, in that sentence i pointed out you said HAVE, so again list his 3 CC skills that he currently HAS, present tense. otherwise you just contradicted yourself with your very own english there.

 

Yo dont seem to understand that the discussion has been about the history of Rhino so.... let me restated. 

The conversation is about the history of Rhino.

 

Do you understand?

[Ronyn]

Yeah, that's his original description. And yeah his powers are offensive in that they did damage and defensive in that they all knocked enemies down.

Survivability down not equal being a tank.

And, yes, when you equip health\shield and armor mod you can describe him as becoming a tank but that doesnt make him a tank.

Any frame that's not on the low end of stats can be described as a tank when you load them up with rank 10 everything.

Yes, we know how the average person use him.

Guess how i used him? Back when there was a tree system i only put one point of IS and you know why? Cause there was no need to put more because of his tremendous energy pool. All i did was to keep enemies "reeling on their backsides." That one point was there for revives and and hacking when i was soloing.

I dont play this game, are the CC abilities single target? Do they have a small aoe?

Yes, the people messed up Rhino because they only focused on one ability that could be cheesed and instead of learning the other powers they just complained about that one ability when it finally changed and now we have what we have. So good job, folks!

We could've had the CC Prince but nooooo, now we have Banshee 2.0 over here.

1: How many times do they have to say words like "defense", "resilience", "immovable" and even "TANK" for the point to come across? You could take any one of those words and argue hes not meant to be a tank..but all together? come on.

Sounds like you're taking every one of the multiple statement made by DE that hints or even says "tank" and just dismissing it.

I mean really: Not every frame gets described as becoming a tank just because defense mods are equipped. At least not by DE...

Yet DE directly describes Rhino as a Tank when his total stats and kit are looked at as a whole.

Granted that some other frames these days have become pretty tanky due to certain mod combinations that appeared over time..and certain abilities....that is exactly why some of us are pointing out how rhino has lost his place as the premier tank of the game.

 

2: league of legends is  MOBA. Each character has 1 passive and 4 active powers. Most of the tanks I listed have a CC on 3 of their active powers.  Most of which are multi-target, charge forwards, knock ups, slows etc....In other words CC is a core staple for the Tank role in that game. According to the only two frames De refers to as tanks ion their videos (Rhino and Frost)...CC is a core staple for the tank role in warfarme as well. 

 

3: I don't know what style of game your definition of Tank is coming from....but its not ALL about Iron skin.

Tanks aren't defined simply by how many personal defense buffing abilities they have. It's a matter of how it all comes together.

An energy pool defines how often a frame can use powers, but it is what the powers do when combined with the frames stats...

That makes a frame what it is.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Ronyn