Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[geninrising]

Alright. I don't care about all the flexing, arguing and exaggerations that get thrown around in this thread....

Let's get to the point.

 

This right here....is an argument against itself.

If Rhino is mediocre currently, gaining a thing to excel in should make him top tier. (Ideally all frames would be top tier but not op)

There should be no need for him to loose most of the rest of his kit. So let us stop with that line of argument.

That in mind, bringing iron skin up to a point where it is a more effective tanking skill for end game...

should be just fine. The question should be exactly how. 

 

There is no reason to discount his original design intent just because the game has grown and changed. None at all.

By all rights and purposes the expectation should be that the old frames get refreshed along with the game so they retain their identity and purpose.

In this case Rhino is not that far off as long as he gets a minor improvement to IS and the other frames that are currently too resistant get toned down a bit.

 

Let's all take it down a notch guys.

So what you are saying is "Make Rhino better and others worse."

 

How is that healthy for the game? The other characters already have situational detriments that apply to their abilities concerning damage mitigation. Rhino's mitigation has none of said detriments except it's maximum EHP.

 

Which by and large is one of it's best selling points because it is complete and total damage mitigation to a certain point. Which places it not so much as a detrimental point but a massive bonus.

 

If IS were to receive a change period it would need to be along the lines of what another poster specified.

Lose the EHP total damage mitigation in favor of maximum(with mods) 90%(including armor, IE: combined the armor and skill strength cannot exceed 90%) damage mitigation and make it duration based.

 

In the above example Rhino would have the tankiness of those frames without the innate drawbacks their skills have(shadows/inability to defend versus bullets).

[KuzkinaMat]

To OP, face tanking rhino is a big NO.

 

Have you seen Mirage, Loki, Mesa, Valkyr soloing high level content and late T4 runs? no.

 

If this happens, everyone will bring rhino and they be like powerful hallway heroes, minding their own business without having a cooperative teamplay and just counting their own kill count. Do you see that on the frames mentioned earlier? no.

 

Mirage, shes just fun to play with, yet she cant face tank.

Loki, he has a different play style and it requires him to be stealthy, he cant face tank and are not that powerful anymore, hes just a versitile frame now which is good

 

Mesa, her shattershield sure can block some of the incoming fire received but melee attacks ignores it so she need a team support to make her strong.

 

Valkyr, he hysteria is where most people compare Rhinos IS, but first you should consider some things about her Hysteria. 1. her Hysteria is her Ultimate skill compered to Rhino's IS,  2. Her hysteria makes Valkyr a melee only warframe and at this state she cant use those op guns, 3, without that, shell die easily while doing melee as she need to take and survive those damage to kill stuff with hysteria effectively.  4. Rhino's IS compared to hysteria can be used anywhere/anytime. 5. even with Hysteria, Valkyr is not a viable frame for endless T4 mission or any higher difficulty missions. If Rhinos old IS be back, itll just make her Hysteria a joke.

 

But i agree though, rhino IS could still get a minor buff coupled with taking aggros, but that's ends there.

[KuzkinaMat]

 Current invincibility skills of some of the warframe has drawback, while the old face tanking Rhino IS has none , so NO.

Edited January 18, 2015 by KuzkinaMat

[Ronyn]

So what you are saying is "Make Rhino better and others worse."

I'm saying adjust multiple frames until they all hit the ideal median. (that is healthy for the game)

In this case:

Iron skin is under performing as a tank level resilience tool currently.

certain other skills are over performing as resilience tools for non tanks.

For the record there are many powers among the frames that need adjustments both up, down and sideways.

 

keep in mind I made no specific statements about what I would change on other frames or in what way.

So please do not jump to conclusions and think I do not understand what is involved.

 

 

If IS were to receive a change period it would need to be along the lines of what another poster specified.

Lose the EHP total damage mitigation in favor of maximum(with mods) 90%(including armor, IE: combined the armor and skill strength cannot exceed 90%) damage mitigation and make it duration based.

There are a few ways to go with that....I'm still looking at the options before I fully support any single idea.

[geninrising]

keep in mind I made no specific statements about what I would change on other frames or in what way.

So please do not jump to conclusions and think I do not understand what is involved.

 

 

 

 

 

What I was referring to.

In this case Rhino is not that far off as long as he gets a minor improvement to IS and the other frames that are currently too resistant get toned down a bit.

 

So yes you called for a nerf to other frames and a buff to rhino, which was precisely my statement, that is therefore not an accusation but a recounting of fact.

 

When any of the other frames take a beating for more than a second or two they get popped and while they have damage mitigation they are overall less tanky stat wise(including armor health and shields totaled).

 

I felt it was a call for a nerf where none is legitimately needed as they have detrimental factors that apply to their damage mitigation abilities whereas rhino has none at all.

 

Calling for a nerf of a frame that sincerely NEEDS their abilities in their current iteration is not very well thought out IMO due to the fact that they are all situational. Situational abilities already require optimum positioning and a fair bit of skill to be useful. Which adds another layer to their detrimental aspects.

 

Again Rhino has none and trying to say he needs a buff and they need a nerf just smacks of confused thinking considering both are in a healthy place atm when judging by late game infinite content. I know we are not supposed to judge balance by infinite content so I will then say everything is broken outside of infinite late game content so why judge it by those standards, because quite frankly outside of infinite content all the frames specified are virtually immortal.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[lZerul]

And you know what is funny ?

Rhino 2nd IS iteration gave him 85% DR on IS.

 

With no drawbacks (IE no wonky light / shadow mechanics, no weak sauce weakness like weak against splash or melee or whatever) it was like Link but better.

 

But Rhino players whined so hard that DE dropped that concept and gave him fixed HP for his IS.

In fact this was the doing of YOU Rhino players.

 

So yes, you guys now asking for a %DR buff now is hilarious.

Blame it on yourselves last time people. Lawl.

 

 

Wow, that is some serious revisionist history going on there.

 

What actually happened is that we were given a timed 85% Damage reduction that gave no CC immunity that was (at the time) weaker then Ember's own DR skill. We requested that CC immunity be added back in and the DR to scale to at least match Ember's tankiness, but DE coudln't figure out how to get CC Immunity to play nice with the DR, I believe it had something to do with the CC immunity being linked to whether we took damage or not.

 

Keep in mind CC was almost mandetory with Infested back then, due to Toxic/Disruptor 100% proc ancients.

 

Trinity also retained its invulnerability for quite some time after we lost ours.

 

So instead we got the band-aid fix of a damage shield, which was still terrible until they got rid of the duration, buffed the HP, and later gave it its own armor. We also lost Radial Blast (CC + Damage AoE) for Roar (% damage party buff).

 

Then damage 2.0 came out and enemy level scaling changed, making armor much weaker in general and the Rhino's tank became more obselete as enemy damage ramped up and more DR was added to newer frames.

 

Just had to bring that up because that quote was very out of context and more then a bit misleading for those who don't know better.

 

Honestly, Rhino just needs his armor buffed massively and make his armor apply to Iron Skin.

Edited January 18, 2015 by lZerul

[Holeypaladin]

 

Have you seen Mirage, Loki, Mesa, Valkyr soloing high level content and late T4 runs? 

Yes I have.  With Mirage and Loki, at least.  Haven't used Valkyr since she was released but her invulnerability speaks for itself.

 

Wow, that is some serious revisionist history going on there.

 

What actually happened is that we were given a timed 85% Damage reduction that gave no CC immunity that was (at the time) weaker then Ember's own DR skill. We requested that CC immunity be added back in and the DR to scale to at least match Ember's tankiness, but DE coudln't figure out how to get CC Immunity to play nice with the DR, I believe it had something to do with the CC immunity being linked to whether we took damage or not.

 

Keep in mind CC was almost mandetory with Infested back then, due to Toxic/Disruptor 100% proc ancients.

 

Trinity also retained its invulnerability for quite some time after we lost ours.

 

So instead we got the band-aid fix of a damage shield, which was still terrible until they got rid of the duration, buffed the HP, and later gave it its own armor. We also lost Radial Blast (CC + Damage AoE) for Roar (% damage party buff).

 

Then damage 2.0 came out and enemy level scaling changed, making armor much weaker in general and the Rhino's tank became more obselete as enemy damage ramped up and more DR was added to newer frames.

 

Just had to bring that up because that quote was very out of context and more then a bit misleading for those who don't know better.

 

Honestly, Rhino just needs his armor buffed massively and make his armor apply to Iron Skin.

That's... actually very good to know.  Thanks for the input.  So essentially damage 2.0 is what made iron skin pretty worthless... I figured it was something like that, coupled with the increasing difficulty of high-level content in T4 missions.  So I take it you're in favor of the 300 base armor and applying armor DR to iron skin?

 

Also... I've updated the top post of this topic to include most of the changes that most of us have agreed on so far.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[lZerul]

I can agree to that buff, since it is more or less how I always wanted it to work.

 

That said, to add even more context, it wasn't just damage 2.0 that made Iron Skin less effective, we also had the general increase in enemy accuracy that ramped up enemy damage.

 

Iron Skin 2.0 (3.4 really) has always had issues with scaling, even before the rework to damage and enemy accuracy, it was just much less pronounced then it is now.

 

The reason Rhino is considered a "noob" frame is it is more or less iinvulnerable at lower difficulties, but scales terribly when he steps into late game areas. Without even considering the Void, Pluto and like areas already shred Iron Skin rather quickly in its current state.

 

I have yet to test it, but with the steath buffs to Iron Clad Charge sound interesting, though I don't know if it can replace Iron Skin's baby with the deceased Radial Blast.

Edited January 18, 2015 by lZerul

[Ronyn]

-trimmed for space-

Several things I want to cover in response. I'll break them down by numbers for ease of digestion. 

 

ONE:

Just because a frame's defensive aspect has some limitation on it does not mean its tuned properly.

Example: Personally I do not approve of any sort of long lasting invulnerability. Such things negate any real back and forth between player and enemy, it effectively negates too much of the combat model and pulls the sense of engagement out of an encounter. No counterplay. ugh. 

So despite Valkyr's hysteria having the limitation of being stuck in melee mode, I do not consider it "balanced" or "in a good place". 

And in contrast, that invulnerability is something that anything other than invulnerability will fall short of.... 

 

TWO:

The comparisons being made between frames in these threads seem to be the real confused thinking.

There is a sort of "but all other frames die real fast...." style of comment. really, that shouldn't even be said.

One does not judge the effectiveness of a healer role by the criteria of them being better at healing than non healer classes.

One does not judge the effectiveness of a stealth role by the criteria of them being better at sneaking than non stealth classes.

One does not judge the effectiveness of a tank role by the criteria of them being better at taking hits than non tanks.

No. One should expect huge differences in the capability of frames made for different roles. That is the point of them.

So one should primarily judge the effectiveness of a role by how well it can perform that role. 

(yes, there is an overarching balance among all things but if you get my drift....the different roles are supposed to be very different)

 

What does that have to do with the conversation here?

The fact that non tank frames die faster than Rhino or have limitations on their defense ability where his does not....is not the point.

The question is whether or not each frame is able to perform their particular role.  

I believe there are some blurred lines with abilities and stats that have created serious problems with frame balance...and odd expectations. 

In rhino's case, Iron Skin under performs as a TANK resilience tool so I do not consider it "balanced" or "in a good place". 

 

THREE:

Many don't want or expect Iron skin to function as a tank level resilience tool because they do not believe Rhino is supposed to be a tank.

That is the core disagreement half the time. As what role we each think a frame is meant to fill has a big effect on our feedback for it.

I recognize that many refer to rhino as a "jack of all trades" these days. I feel that is a misnomer.

What he is supposed to be is a "well rounded Tank". He needs a few adjustments to get back on that track.

Some folks call him "Not a tank but a CC frame" these days. I feel that is a misunderstanding.

Rhino uses CC as a tool for tanking. Defend allies by controlling the flow of combat.

Which is not an uncommon design despite the way some folks talk about it. 

[fatpig84]

The only time i will accept %DR on iron skin is that it has a aggro system that draws all enemy attention to him within 50 meters.

Anything else will make him too strong with minimal flaws.

[Ronyn]

The only time i will accept %DR on iron skin is that it has a aggro system that draws all enemy attention to him within 50 meters.

Anything else will make him too strong with minimal flaws.

Giving iron skin an aggro grab is a very good idea. (I've suggested it many times in other threads)

Again, if he is to be a tank as he is listed to be....then let us look to make sure the changes he get's are for that purpose.

[geninrising]

The only time i will accept %DR on iron skin is that it has a aggro system that draws all enemy attention to him within 50 meters.

Anything else will make him too strong with minimal flaws.

The problem with this is that were they to implement said aggro system within 50m it would generate an instantly dead rhino where all the players are asking for a buff(late game content). Unfortunately DE does not make any frame with late game content in mind. In fact it has no bearing on their development whatsoever(unless the subject is the gamemode itself).

 

Players are only supposed to be able to play there through skillful application of all systems in the game. Movement/melee/guns/powers must all be utilized in a skillful manner and currently the game promotes too much press a button and trivialize content. Thus far this is the only iteration of IS that cannot completely trivialize all content he encounters. Thus I feel it is at a healthy point.

 

DE has already sorely imbalanced the majority of the game and caused most of the game to be affected negatively through power spam(ie: abilities being able to be constantly utilized due to the broken energy mechanics). I simply  will not stand by and allow further abuse of said systems without opposing it.

[Ronyn]

The problem with this is that were they to implement said aggro system within 50m it would generate an instantly dead rhino where all the players are asking for a buff(late game content). Unfortunately DE does not make any frame with late game content in mind. In fact it has no bearing on their development whatsoever(unless the subject is the gamemode itself).

There is also the suggestion on these boards that Iron Skin could function similar to snow globe (initial 4 seconds of invulnerability, gains HP based on in damage absorbed) but with the addition of it pulling aggro during those first 4 seconds.

That idea has it's own merit and problems to work out. Just food for though.

 

Players are only supposed to be able to play there through skillful application of all systems in the game. Movement/melee/guns/powers must all be utilized in a skillful manner and currently the game promotes too much press a button and trivialize content. Thus far this is the only iteration of IS that cannot completely trivialize all content he encounters. Thus I feel it is at a healthy point.

It seems as though this current iteration of iron skin only achieves the goal of not trivializing content.

It lacks the potential for Skillful application due its overly simple nature. This is one of the things it lacks that I think we can do better with.

It's why I suggested one that takes on rhinos armor rating because it would allow the skillful use of ironclad charge to improve its effectiveness. More food for thought.

 

DE has already sorely imbalanced the majority of the game and caused most of the game to be affected negatively through power spam(ie: abilities being able to be constantly utilized due to the broken energy mechanics). I simply  will not stand by and allow further abuse of said systems without opposing it.

I'm against the "press button and win" style of design as well. Still, I don't think we should rest on an ability that is under-performing in it's true task just because it's not trivializing anything. It needs work if it's going to be what it's meant to be.

 

I'm not saying I have it all figured out yet....but I think it deserves better than what it is now.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Ronyn

[fatpig84]

The problem with this is that were they to implement said aggro system within 50m it would generate an instantly dead rhino where all the players are asking for a buff(late game content). Unfortunately DE does not make any frame with late game content in mind. In fact it has no bearing on their development whatsoever(unless the subject is the gamemode itself).

 

 

That is both a flaw and strength.

 

If you want Rhino to be an RPG tank, you must have skills for him to force enemy aggro on him so he can take the heat off the other players. That will be a huge strength.

 

This is probably the only other acceptable trade off without the other mechanics that the other "tanks" in the game have to face. Or in other MMO games, they reduce the tank speed severely when he is Hulked up which goes against Warframe's nature as a fast paced shooter.

 

 

The aggro mechanic doesn't necessary have to be as long as Iron skin last.  It can be for like for 4 seconds.

The Flaw will be if you cast Iron skin brainlessly, you are asking to be hammered. Like for some example casting it in a wide open space where everyone and their dog can shoot you.

 

Or you can be smart about it, find a dead zone and cast iron skin. Then the aggro force enemies to a choke point. Letting your softie team mates gun them down. In that way you not only protect your team mates, Rhino has another CC on top of Stomp.

How is that a bad thing ?

 

 

If you want to give Rhino immense DR with no other drawbacks, this is the only acceptable I think it can work.

 

Then you have your tank working as intended.  

A tank that draws aggro and can take a respectable beating without falling off at high content.

But still require a bit of brain power instead of pressing 2 and go to town.

Edited January 18, 2015 by fatpig84

[Holeypaladin]

 

If you want Rhino to be an RPG tank, you must have skills for him to force enemy aggro on him so he can take the heat off the other players. That will be a huge strength.

 

 

I already suggested an idea for an augment to make Roar work as a taunt, and draw enemy fire to the roaring tank.

 

Iron skin itself could potentially cause additional threat to draw enemy fire whenever active.  But it needs to be strong enough to take the extra damage.

[lZerul]

The draw aggro idea isn't bad so long as the durability it offers matches. Drawing fire for a limited duration after you use the ability isn't a bad idea at all.

 

I would personally like the armor scaling idea to go in and have an augment mod that gives a aggro aura to Iron Skin + some sort of armor buff per enemy taunted.

 

Or as others have suggested, give the Taunt component to Roar.

Edited January 18, 2015 by lZerul

[Bobtm]

I already suggested an idea for an augment to make Roar work as a taunt, and draw enemy fire to the roaring tank.

 

Iron skin itself could potentially cause additional threat to draw enemy fire whenever active.  But it needs to be strong enough to take the extra damage.

 

Thing is that we're saying it's nearly necessary for Iron Skin to have the taunt upon it as a potential limiting factor to prevent it from being an "easymode" button.  Seperating the two would be a raw buff to IS which... well pretty much 99% of this thread's posts have been entirely against, myself included.

 

Unlike other games' "tanks" our frames aren't the raw source of most of our damage, that's what our guns do.  Tanks generally aren't the ones getting their kill on, that's the tradeoff there.  As noted I'm doubtful anyone would willingly accept a rework of IS so that it self nerfs one's own damage in turn for providing a ton of raw survivability through a high DR%.

 

You can't just "make it strong enough to suck up all the damage" because if it can absorb a room's damage and not fall.... well hot damn that's obviously op as hell  :p  It would turn IS into an effective immortality button, and nobody should ever want that.

 

The core which would be nice to work towards would be to make Rhino a more clear tank in usability without making him overpowered.  I like Ronyn's idea before (though if 300 armor is really 50% DR... then I'm against that side) and I dig the idea fatpig84 noted above also.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Bobtm

[ZayTM]

Been following thread for a long while. Best solution I've seen was give IS the "snow globe treatment" (X seconds of invuln and convert damage to hp + base value) and have it draw aggro during the invulnerability window.

It literally does everything everyone wants rhino to do: It lets him tank, it lets him provide soft CC to protect allies, it makes him more durable at high levels and makes him not ridiculously op at low levels.

[geninrising]

Then you have your tank working as intended.

A tank that draws aggro and can take a respectable beating without falling off at high content.

But still require a bit of brain power instead of pressing 2 and go to town.

The problem is this statement right here in conjunction with what you propose.

DE does not create any ability predicated on the idea that it be just as useful at high level content They base it on Planetary restrictions in non-infinite content.

Within those bounds Rhino would be able to Facetank as OP suggested and that is exactly why DE changed previous IS. Rhino had a win button.

Additionally with the current iteration of enemy AI this entire roar concept could potentially break the AI in inummerable ways. Players could definitely exploit the hell out of this with very little teamwork if any at all. For instance Rhino simply stands in a place unreachable by enemies and roars constantly thus with a tiny bit of work by a nova beforehand Rhino removes the need for players to work at all to defend the pod in Tower defense scenarios. Even worse would be tower survival. In many of it's rooms there are locations players have access to that would allow this tactic to go on indefinitely. Maps on the star chart are riddled by even more locations that frames have access to and enemies do not, which would further compound the issue.

The aggro system asked for could potentially end any difficulty whatsoever no matter the location within the star chart or outside of it infinitely. You can be sure if that is implemented it will break difficulty even more than current ability spam has.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[lZerul]

A pure buff to Iron Skin is almost what is necessary though, for a frame that is supposed the tankiest of the frames to be significantly squishier then several higher utility (Trinity) and damage Frames (Mirage, Mesa and Valkyr to some extent). means that he needs a straight buff in some department.

 

I don't think anyone is asking for Rhino to be invincible, but he does need a buff in concern to his durability. If we are intent on adding some form of penalty to his buff with the assumption that it will somehow make him overpowered, then either people don't want to admit his durability is in need of improvement, or assuming the buff will be far more extensive then it actually will be.

 

The proposed armor buff + applying it to Iron Skin means that he will actually take damage at lower levels of content, but actually be able to tank much better at high end content, which is exactly what we are trying to accomplish here.

[geninrising]

Been following thread for a long while. Best solution I've seen was give IS the "snow globe treatment" (X seconds of invuln and convert damage to hp + base value) and have it draw aggro during the invulnerability window.

It literally does everything everyone wants rhino to do: It lets him tank, it lets him provide soft CC to protect allies, it makes him more durable at high levels and makes him not ridiculously op at low levels.

See my post above for why that is not a good idea.

[Holeypaladin]

A lot of frames have "win" buttons.  All the "4 to win" frames have a win button (it's number 4, right there).  Rhino does not currently have a win button, but a "make me considerably more resilient to enemy damage" button would be nice.  It fits his theme.

 

A lot of people want to play tanky frames.  They get criticized because they like dying, or maybe because they like to play solo-viable frames and avoid having to work in a team of strangers if they don't want to.  Rhino used to be THE solo frame, but he's not so much anymore.

 

One of the fundamental issues of the game is that it's difficult to find teams to clear all the nodes on the star chart, so solo play is pretty much required just to open up the maps.  That's probably the main reason Rhino is popular at low levels.

 

And as a tradeoff for being the supposed tank... Rhino doesn't have any "kill the whole room" powers like a lot of other frames have.  I think that's a fair exchange already.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

A lot of frames have "win" buttons.  All the "4 to win" frames have a win button (it's number 4, right there).  Rhino does not currently have a win button, but a "make me considerably more resilient to enemy damage" button would be nice.  It fits his theme.

 

And as a tradeoff for being the supposed tank... Rhino doesn't have any "kill the whole room" powers like a lot of other frames have.  I think that's a fair exchange already.

The point is that no one should have a kill the whole room button or a button that allows them to shrug off damage infinitely into content.

 

Infinite scaling abilities are present however they are massively predicated on situations sometimes predicated on very specific enemies.

 

The proposed changes all of them except mine would provide Rhino scaling infinitely. No matter the faction no matter the area no matter the circumstances Rhino would effectively get god mode.

 

90% damage mitigation maximum on current IS(mods included) would place him at the top tier if you want a defensive build.

 

However immunity to damage is unacceptable(as is absorption) and quite frankly due to the ease of abuse aggro draw is as well.

[Holeypaladin]

If you want to get rid of "kill the whole room" buttons...

 

You'd have to nerf more than half the frames in the game.  Because most of them have it.  Radial javelin?  Nerf, it kills the whole room.  Overload?  The damage is crap but it still kills the whole room, so nerf.  M-prime?  Definitely nerf that, chain reaciton kills the whole room.

 

Trying to get rid of win buttons is a losing battle, which you have already lost.  Most frames have one.  And they aren't going anywhere.  Rhino has none... which makes him weaker in comparison.

 

And if you're worried about frames scaling infinitely... you should attack Loki instead of Rhino.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Renegade343]

A lot of frames have "win" buttons.  All the "4 to win" frames have a win button (it's number 4, right there).  Rhino does not currently have a win button, but a "make me considerably more resilient to enemy damage" button would be nice.  It fits his theme.

Yes, he does. 

 

Rhino Stomp. Damage, long CC, no enemies affected can retaliate against you. It might be something to consider too.