Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Nijito]

Let me tell you my experience about the "tanks", that was before the patch when they introduce nullifiers in void.

 

My first crafted warframe was Rhino, I used it to unlock missions of each planets, I felt strong with it, but a day I tried a T4 survival (with random people like me) and around 30 minutes my "iron skin" just held less than 1 second so I used ultimates to flee for extract.

 

It is then I understood that "iron skin" was overpowered but only for low level missions and uneffective for high level ones.

 

So I decided to craft a tankier warframe, I saw the armor of Valkyr and people said that was the best tank of the game, so why not?

(Just to say for me Berserker =/= Tank, it is more like enraged as Tryndamere from LoL if you see what I mean)

I wasn't disappointed, it did the job I expected, I felt unkillable because that was the point (I understood that was op), I enjoyed my T4 survival.

 

And then DE added nullifiers in void,  Valkyr just become useless in my favourite mission... (we're not here to talk about nullifiers so I stop here)

 

Now I'm crafting Trinity.

 

That's why I support Holeypaladin in his ideas to changes "tanky" skills of the warframes he cited, because there is people who enjoy "facetanking", (but not in full brainless, I mean a minimum).

 

Sorry if my english was bad and thank you for reading.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Nijito

[Ronyn]

Sort of thing, yes?

Cause I can dig that

Right on. That is the general direction I'd like to see it go.

Though there are some things I'd do differently than the specific description..

which I'll write up at a later date after a bit more thought on it.

 

Yes I could absolutely live with giving rhino some DR via armor on IS(not full I think because with the Iron clad Charge thing he could reach near 90% dr or more which as I discussed before could lead to god tank rhino) but some number could work theoretically.

Seems most reasonable to just find a smart cap to put on the max DR it could achieve.

That way it get's good solid amounts of armor his base stats and from steel fiber without iron clad charge..

but doesn't allow someones choice to use ironclad charge to take it too far.

 

 

On the subject of aggro draw this too could work if it was based solely on his weapon attacks otherwise if it was damage dealt there might be a means to exploit via use of stomp(although that's a long shot with how the damage is delivered and then the cc occurs) so it may cause aggro during the CC only which would work itself out essentially. The reason I could see this working is that Rhino would have to be a helluva marksman+time management guru to ensure the majority of enemies aggro'd on to him IF he were in an unreachable location thus pretty much negating the possibility of an exploit.

I think we are getting on the right track on that one...

[Holeypaladin]

Cleaned up some antagonistic posts.

I ask that you all remain respectable in this discussion and avoid personal insults.

 

Carry on.

Thanks, we're finally seeing some progress on this topic and productive discussion.

[Beetamus]

Potentially another way to get around the problem of the aggro draw and unreachable locations could be to make the taunt LOS. Even if you're up high somewhere, most of the enemies still use guns and I've seen infested jump pretty damned high. Also kinda makes sense for the "come at me bro" thing.

[geninrising]

Potentially another way to get around the problem of the aggro draw and unreachable locations could be to make the taunt LOS. Even if you're up high somewhere, most of the enemies still use guns and I've seen infested jump pretty damned high. Also kinda makes sense for the "come at me bro" thing.

Meh I still prefer the idea of a physical aggro draw via damage just to guarantee no exploitation because there have been many occasions that I can acquire LoS through boxes and other obstructions that could make this exploit as easy as get to a place they cannot reach and barely poke your head up for LoS. I can name one immediate place off the top of my head where this would work tooo well. as in infinite run too well if LOS is the factor. Plus the aggro via damage things places an acceptable limiter that will only get you killed if you play it stupid and spray a massive mob with say Braton Prime or Kohm. Otherwise I think more people would scream buff once again, even though what we propose is a large buff by and large to it's tanking ability and it's utility.

 

Although now that I think about it, if we gave it no kind of absorption or invincibility I could see it keeping the aggro effect indefinitely rather than the first few seconds or whatever as just a passive of IS being worn.

Edited January 19, 2015 by geninrising

[Bobtm]

 Although now that I think about it, if we gave it no kind of absorption or invincibility I could see it keeping the aggro effect indefinitely rather than the first few seconds or whatever as just a passive of IS being worn.

 

I'm sort of liking that train of thought as well.  Of course I'm also on the same page as you in having to take careful consideration any ways in which such a strong aggro drawing mechanic could be exploited.

 

For a reference point one can look at Loki's Decoy.  It draws a boat load of aggro, even without LoS enemies will try and blast the crap out of a box in vain.  Worse still when a player knows how to spawn said Decoy inside of the level geometry rendering it nigh invulnerable.  Of course in these instances sometimes the foes seem to suddenly forget of its existence and immediately target something else.

 

The idea of having Rhino's weapons drawing increased aggro whilst wearing IS is definitely a good potential solution on the matter.  I'm sort of curious as to what those wanting to tank would enjoy more in terms of this sort of mechanic.  Having it based on weapon's fire or having it as a constant passive for either some or all of IS's duration.  If I were in Rhino's boots at that point, I'd sort of dig the weapon's fire one better, of course I'm not one to main Rhino anyways so I'd not consider my opinion on this even moderately important.

[Ronyn]

Meh I still prefer the idea of a physical aggro draw via damage just to guarantee no exploitation because there have been many occasions that I can acquire LoS through boxes and other obstructions that could make this exploit as easy as get to a place they cannot reach and barely poke your head up for LoS.---

Although now that I think about it, if we gave it no kind of absorption or invincibility I could see it keeping the aggro effect indefinitely rather than the first few seconds or whatever as just a passive of IS being worn.

 

 I'm sort of curious as to what those wanting to tank would enjoy more in terms of this sort of mechanic.  Having it based on weapon's fire or having it as a constant passive for either some or all of IS's duration.  If I were in Rhino's boots at that point, I'd sort of dig the weapon's fire one better, of course I'm not one to main Rhino anyways so I'd not consider my opinion on this even moderately important.

Currently I'm leaning toward weapons fire drawing agro while iron skin is active.

Why? Choice. Being able to choose which enemies I want to aggro and which ones I don't makes the most sense tactically.

Besides, if an "oh snap" moment happens that is when Stomp is used to give yourself and allies some breathing room.

Also..without any period of invulnerability/absorption it is really too dangerous to grab EVERYONES attention at once.

 

Here is an overly simplistically stated Classic tanking chain of events from other games-

1: Initiate combat (often with a charge move), 2: keep important enemy/enemies focused on me and survive it, 3: let others handle stragglers, 4: when things get to hot press the "oh snap button" to save the day, 5: rinse & repeat or mix up the order as needed.

 

In MMORPG dungeon/raid situations number 2 largely works through aggro manipulation.

In MOBA style competitive play situations number 2 largely works through body blocking, zoning, and crowd control.

What we are talking about gives rhino the tools to do both which I think are wise for an action game such as this.

 

I think we are on to something here gentleman.

 

(is it obvious I have played a tank in every kind of game ever or what? lol)

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ronyn

[Holeypaladin]

I've noticed Loki's decoy draws aggro by shooting random bullets.  If that's the case, perhaps Rhino can draw increased aggro just by shooting... the bullets don't necessarily need to hit, so long as they're being fired.  If you have to actually hit something to draw aggro on it, there's really not much point anyway since your shots will just kill them dead if you use a good weapon.

 

Dead enemies are CC'd, true, but there's no reason only the dead things should attack Rhino.

[Mak_Gohae]

you havent read the topic posts it seems, this is the issue, by his intro video and codex entry he is not meant to be a jack of all trades, he is meant to be a tank yet non tank frames out tank him, which is the issue we were discussing before this guy came and his entire post on the 3-4 occasions he did post was basically, make huge and incorrect inferences on other players and then add, i can so you are bad. yes roar scales with power str, but its highly unlikely you are going to go full power str, as that would be 3 out of 8 slots, then you would need efficiency 2 more, and then duration leaving your rhino out of iron skin basically naked, that was the point i was making, he isnt like loki, vauban or nova even that can balance out a corrupted build and have every skill other than raw damage fall off.

 

His video says he is CC and that no longer applies. Hek, i didnt apply when the video was released because by then Rhino had already been changed.

And he WAS changed into a jack of all trades. He is now essentially build around having one power of every kind so whatever role he had, whether you think tank or CC, no longer exists.

 

But people are STILL stuck on complaining about IS because the love pumping that baby out and just walking forward while shooting.

I think DE should just get rid of IS and turn him back to the CC\DMGer he was. Charge, Roar, Blast, Stomp.

But DE is stuck with the "everyone must be able to play every frame" mentality so they got to mold them into something that anyone can pick up.

[Ronyn]

His video says he is CC and that no longer applies. Hek, i didnt apply when the video was released because by then Rhino had already been changed.

And he WAS changed into a jack of all trades. He is now essentially build around having one power of every kind so whatever role he had, whether you think tank or CC, no longer exists.

 

But people are STILL stuck on complaining about IS because the love pumping that baby out and just walking forward while shooting.

I think DE should just get rid of IS and turn him back to the CC\DMGer he was. Charge, Roar, Blast, Stomp.

But DE is stuck with the "everyone must be able to play every frame" mentality so they got to mold them into something that anyone can pick up.

According to you...

The role Rhino originally had (A CC focused tank according to both DE and the how he was played) no longer exists, because he is no longer CC (despite him being very good at it currently), has one of every type of skill (if we ignore stealth, healing, or long ranged damage), and would be more like his original version without iron skin. (even though iron skin was one of his original powers)....but people (whoever they are) want buffs to iron skin so they can just walk forward and shoot (despite several of us talking about using skills in a combined way)....and that DE wants to make sure that everyone can play every frame (despite their claims that they are actually trying to provide a frame for every style of gameplay)....

 

I think you are mistaken.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

I've noticed Loki's decoy draws aggro by shooting random bullets.  If that's the case, perhaps Rhino can draw increased aggro just by shooting... the bullets don't necessarily need to hit, so long as they're being fired.  If you have to actually hit something to draw aggro on it, there's really not much point anyway since your shots will just kill them dead if you use a good weapon.

 

Dead enemies are CC'd, true, but there's no reason only the dead things should attack Rhino.

I see the validity in your concern.

What we need here...is a prolonged aggro effect after an enemy is shot by iron skin rhino. 

As in-an enemy shot by iron skin rhino would remain aggro'd toward him for X number of seconds after the firing stopped.

 

Our main concern here has been late game situations. At that point a lot of the basic enemies can take a few shots before they go down.

Heavy enemies can take even more, and bosses require a whole lot. Things won't die to a few stray shots with most weapons..that actually gives us room to work with. Rhino could make it a point to spread out fire across multiple enemies to keep them on him or focus fire on boss types to keep them focused on him.

 

Also, iron skin rhino should probably be able to aggro enemies with his powers too. Seems counter-intuitive to charge into an enemy group only to have them stand up and shoot at someone else. lol

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

I see the validity in your concern.

What we need here...is a prolonged aggro effect after an enemy is shot by iron skin rhino. 

As in-an enemy shot by iron skin rhino would remain aggro'd toward him for X number of seconds after the firing stopped.

 

Our main concern here has been late game situations. At that point a lot of the basic enemies can take a few shots before they go down.

Heavy enemies can take even more, and bosses require a whole lot. Things won't die to a few stray shots with most weapons..that actually gives us room to work with. Rhino could make it a point to spread out fire across multiple enemies to keep them on him or focus fire on boss types to keep them focused on him.

 

Also, iron skin rhino should probably be able to aggro enemies with his powers too. Seems counter-intuitive to charge into an enemy group only to have them stand up and shoot at someone else. lol

I am all for having his charge/guns/melee/jump kick all proc the aggro from rhino for 10 seconds that way we guarantee people can pick up friendlies while Rhino keeps the enemies busy. That way as long as Rhino does not focus down an enemy he can spread the effect as much as he wants. In addition to that under situations where a friendly is about to get killed by that Bombard or whatever Rhino can swap aggro and keep him busy while his teammate makes it away from the location rather than take the aggro and if he happens to move on the enemy won't immediately turn and finish them off.  

 

The reason I suggested approx 10 seconds is because Rhino may need to obtain aggro from several different targets in order to make it safe for another team member to revive the fallen comrade and it would be a useless skill if it did not allow plays to be made.

[geninrising]

Additionally if this change was made I would love to see an Augment produced for Stomp that caused it to send all enemies flying away causing physics impact allowing aoe aggro to be generated rather than suspending them in mid air. I feel this would lend itself greatly to an IS rhino build.

[Ronyn]

Additionally if this change was made I would love to see an Augment produced for Stomp that caused it to send all enemies flying away causing physics impact allowing aoe aggro to be generated rather than suspending them in mid air. I feel this would lend itself greatly to an IS rhino build.

The way this is being presented Aggro is generated when hit by stomp either way.

The potential advantage to having enemies fly away instead would be to knock them farther away from the point of cast...

but I don't see enough situations where that would be so preferable to the regular stomp effect that I would use up a mod slot.

 

That is to say: Isn't having enemies floating helplessly in mid air an ideal situation?

They aren't hurting anyone while floating and upon landing their aggro would still be on rhino

Well, depending on the amount of time aggro lasts vs how long the stomp effect lasts of course.

[geninrising]

The way this is being presented Aggro is generated when hit by stomp either way.

The potential advantage to having enemies fly away instead would be to knock them farther away from the point of cast...

but I don't see enough situations where that would be so preferable to the regular stomp effect that I would use up a mod slot.

 

That is to say: Isn't having enemies floating helplessly in mid air an ideal situation?

They aren't hurting anyone while floating and upon landing their aggro would still be on rhino

Well, depending on the amount of time aggro lasts vs how long the stomp effect lasts of course.

Actually where I was going with that was allowing Rhino to create aggro pull in an AOE as long as he was actively IN combat. I would suggest that the enemies flying away would temporarily count as aggro'ing damage from Rhino

[UnknownBlademaster]

Thank god Holeypaladin came to his senses. Rhino IS buffs are ok as long as they have drawbacks, and him drawing aggro is what quite a few people suggested in the first pages. Whatever, better late than never eh?

[Cryhunter059]

Yes, Valkyr can face-tank but she's forced into melee only unlike Rhino. Meaning as soon as hysteria rus out, you're still just as screwed as a rhino in long T4's, especially when it requires you to kill everything in cast radius or GTFO to avoid damage while you're in it.

[Ronyn]

Actually where I was going with that was allowing Rhino to create aggro pull in an AOE as long as he was actively IN combat. I would suggest that the enemies flying away would temporarily count as aggro'ing damage from Rhino

OH! I follow what you're saying now. yes, I could see uses for that.

[Holeypaladin]

A lot of the aggro mechanics discussed may require an extensive rewrite of the aggro system in warframe...

 

Perhaps that's why they've been dragging their feet on iron skin and Rhino in general for so long.  Trying to figure out how to have him generate enough aggro while being able to resist the damage.

 

Either way... improving iron skin mechanics is the first step.

[Demiax]

I've pretty much abandoned Rhino in favor of Mirage lately.  She's just so much better in every way, that Rhino doesn't serve much purpose anymore.  He's only mediocre now.  His main face tanking power, iron skin, is so weak compared to damage reduction powers like shatter shield and eclipse that it's not practical for the high end content I'm playing lately.

 

Iron skin face tanking needs to come back.  I miss the days when Rhino could face tank with the best of them, rather than being a roar-stomp bot like he is now.  Roar-stomp is good, sure, but I like to face tank, and can't do it as Rhino anymore.

 

How to do this?  A simple change to iron skin can do it.  Since everyone is against bringing back invulnerability (even though loki's invisibility is exactly that), you can just make it something like 75% damage reduction (scaling with power strength) for 20 seconds (scaling with power duration), plus immunity to crowd control affects, for an energy cost of 25.

 

This would bring iron skin in line with eclipse, but remove the massive damage increase and instead be a full time defensive buff.  The stats I listed are quite similar to the duration and damage reduction of eclipse when mirage is in the shade.

 

One important thing to keep in mind: The goal of this discussion is NOT to bring back Rhino invincibility.  We don't want him to be invincible, just more resilient than the non-tank frames.

 

Update:

5 step proposal to balance out damage reduction powers:

Step 1: Remove invulnerability from Valkyr's broken hysteria.

Step 2: Remove power scaling to eclipse and shatter shield.  80% DR for Mesa and 75% for Mirage is more than enough for "glass cannon" type warframes.

Step 3: Buff Rhino's base armor to 300 and apply armor DR to iron skin.  Iron skin health = 2 * max health + power strength.

Step 4: Add a "Challenging Shout" augment to Roar, to make Rhino draw enemy fire away from teammates and to himself.

Step 5: Buff Frost's armor to 300.  Give Frost an augment to make snow globe more eximus-like in exchange for a significant chunk of its health.... perhaps using the same health and DR formula as iron skin for the eximus version.

Oh uhm... im pretty sure that Iron Skin already draws aggro... I will make a post with proof!

[Ronyn]

Oh uhm... im pretty sure that Iron Skin already draws aggro... I will make a post with proof!

It currently does, just not every well.

[Holeypaladin]

Yeah... so it draws aggro but doesn't provide enough resistance to tank the damage.

 

Meaning all that needs to be done is to increase the damage resistance of iron skin and other powers to put it back at the top of DR abilities.  And then perhaps rewrite the aggro mechanics in order to do a better job drawing enemy fire.

 

Perhaps Rhino should have two forms of aggro mechanic.  Iron skin = line of sight aggro, while roar ignores line of sight (since it's heard instead of seen).

Edited January 20, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Damuranashi]

But he isn't, because people keep complaining about how OP iron skin face tanking used to be, but no one seems to complain at all when face tanking powers are given to Valkyr and Mirage.

What can I say? I like girls.

[Demiax]

This means Rhino would require a huge buff. 

 

IMO he needs an overhaul that makes him what he really is; a tank.

 

Ability changes:

 

1. Rhino Charge needs to be directional while in use or just a better animation

 

2. Iron Skin needs to be stronger, not wet toilet paper

 

3. Roar is nice, should have other buffs as well, such as a small radial heal or adrenal rush to nearby players. (thinking of Rhino as a cheer-leader)

 

4. Stomp is okay CC, lackluster late game, also doesn't fit Rhino at all. Enemies should be stunned on the ground and not in mid air.

 

This topic has a lot to do with improving Rhino >>>https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/339032-rhino-rhino-rhino-edit-6-augment-mod-for-rhino/

Edited January 20, 2015 by Demiax

[Demiax]

A lot of the aggro mechanics discussed may require an extensive rewrite of the aggro system in warframe...

 

Perhaps that's why they've been dragging their feet on iron skin and Rhino in general for so long.  Trying to figure out how to have him generate enough aggro while being able to resist the damage.

 

Either way... improving iron skin mechanics is the first step.

For DE, this should be quite simple. They are professional, they know what to do, and they need to do it, and they are. This year will be DEDICATED to the balance of Warframe. Which is highly needed.