Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Holeypaladin]

The more I think of it, the more I think iron skin's health shield be a sum of max shields + max health with armor-based DR (base armor buffed to 300)

 

Why?

 

Because it encourages Rhino players to build for shields (otherwise the redirection mod would be useless).

 

And because it required at least four mods devoted to iron skin if you want it to be particularly strong.... to include redirection (normally useless on most health tanks like Valkyr), Vitality, Steel fiber (normally useless on ALL frames unless base armor is at least 300), and power strength mods.

 

I figure if a player is willing to devote that many mods towards an iron skin build... it should pay off.

[Ronyn]

"My definition" of tank if the RPG definition that has existed for decades. 

Dude, I've been playing RPG's for decades too. The definition you're using is limited according to many games from long ago.

Also warframe was made a couple years ago. The definition they use could just as well be based on what you consider "new moba style" anyway...

 

Warframe uses a four power system with no cooldowns. It won't really match up with games that use 20+ powers with Cooldowns. It's more likely to match up with other games that use a four power system...

and even still no cooldowns means that a frame doesn't need multiple powers to do the same basic thing because the same power can be relied on as needed. Instead, the four powers need to create a well rounded set that cover all the potential bases a role may need.

For example: Go WAY back for a minute. Traditionally a lot of tank classes a have charge like initiation tool that even stuns(charge), a way to increase their personal defense(iron skin), and a way to stop the enemies from hurting allies when the crud hits the fad (stomp).  Rhino has all three of those classic tank things.  (a team buff does not change his role all by itself)

Crowd control is not mutually exclusive from tank classes, it is just a tool that some use more or less than others. 

 

Cause DE decided to follow certain players idea of what he was and build him that way.

Which, like you stated, they didnt even properly do it. It's lip service so the tank crowd would stop. And they did... until now.

Strange how you just decide what their motivation was when they do something that doesn't fit what you're view....

 

I think that was dealing with certain combinations of powers that made it so people could go nuts. I think that was about Trinity.

It was part of a conversation about the larger issue brought up due to an issue including trinity.

 

"DE didnt say Rhino was a tank, DE said that you can build him to be something like that with a combination of mods.

There's a different between IS and CAN BE.

You can make all frame resemble certain things if you put on the right mods.

Ok let's split hairs-

DE said Rhino can be a tank with the right loadout. (not "something" like a tank)

DE said Frost can be made into an offensive, or defensive tank with the right loadout.

They NEVER said ANY of the other frames can be tanks with any loadout. That distinction is key.

 

ALL frames potential comes from their mod loadout. To suggest that the label doesn't count because it requires moding...

is trying to slip out of the obvious on a technicality.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

The more I think of it, the more I think iron skin's health shield be a sum of max shields + max health with armor-based DR (base armor buffed to 300)

 

Why?

 

Because it encourages Rhino players to build for shields (otherwise the redirection mod would be useless).

 

And because it required at least four mods devoted to iron skin if you want it to be particularly strong.... to include redirection (normally useless on most health tanks like Valkyr), Vitality, Steel fiber (normally useless on ALL frames unless base armor is at least 300), and power strength mods.

 

I figure if a player is willing to devote that many mods towards an iron skin build... it should pay off.

Once again, what you are asking for is a return to GODTANK Rhino and exactly what DE was trying to get away from. Honestly I feel like your ideas are getting rose and worse as the conversation goes on

 

your OP states: Since everyone is against bringing back invulnerability (even though loki's invisibility is exactly that), you can just make it something like 75% damage reduction (scaling with power strength) for 20 seconds (scaling with power duration), plus immunity to crowd control affects, for an energy cost of 25

 

Now: The more I think of it, the more I think iron skin's health shield be a sum of max shields + max health with armor-based DR (base armor buffed to 300)

 

In addition to that you want to do THIS TO EVERY OTHER DEFENSIVE SKILL IN THE GAME

5 step proposal to balance out damage reduction powers:

Step 1: Remove invulnerability from Valkyr's broken hysteria.

Step 2: Remove power scaling to eclipse and shatter shield.  80% DR for Mesa and 75% for Mirage is more than enough for "glass cannon" type warframes.

Step 3: Buff Rhino's base armor to 300 and apply armor DR to iron skin.  Iron skin health = max shields + max health + power strength.  This makes a full iron skin build require at least four mods (Redirection, vitality, steel fiber, and power strength mods)

Step 4: Add a "Challenging Shout" augment to Roar, to make Rhino draw enemy fire away from teammates and to himself.

Step 5: Buff Frost's armor to 300.  Give Frost an augment to make snow globe more eximus-like in exchange for a significant chunk of its health.... perhaps using the same health and DR formula as iron skin for the eximus version.

 

ALL SO THAT YOU CAN FEEL LIKE A REAL TANK?

 

It's people like YOU that make me really happy that DE ignores most feedback.

In the future please feel free to not start threads that you cannot hope to be reasonable about.

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising

[Holeypaladin]

There were a lot of proposals for more ways to incorporate armor into the equation of iron skin, but Rhino's current armor would need to be buffed up to 300 for that to really help at all.

 

So I was coming up with other ideas that do incorporate armor.  Various ideas... heck, any one of them would be sufficient, so long as it's improved in some way that boosts Rhino back up to top tank.

[Bobtm]

Before I get onto important matters, I'm gonna get something out of the way first that I feel is important for now.

 

There are those of us who do not feel that Rhino is a "classic tank" in terms of role. (I'm in this camp mind you, as are others)

 

There are those of us who do feel that Rhino is a "classic tank" in terms of role.  (I know Ronyn is here, as are others)

 

However, for the sake of what this thread is both sides can potentially see past this for the sake of furthering the discussion.  For folks in my camp, it's basically like we're looking at it as "let's allow Rhino to fulfill a "classic tank" role since there isn't one of those in Warframe at all currently, and he is the closest to it thematically.  For folks in the other camp... well, they approach the issue from a straightforward place, no further thought needed.

 

Now mind you this isn't me saying anything like "you can't disagree" or anything of the sort.  Basically I'm saying that the discussion reguarding the thematic "role" in which Rhino has/is/will be in is something that basically none of us will convince anyone else in.  We've all played our fair share of varying games and from those backgrounds we've got different ideals of how things are or aren't tanks.  That arguement will never end, as it's a matter of us all having subjective viewpoints on the specific matter.

 

On the flip side, people can very much have varying opinions and discussions on potentially different mechanics for the workings of IS, in tandem with maths on it.  This side is notably less subjective as players with endgame experience can judge how powerful these hypothetically suggested ideas could be.  We are all capable of weighing in on whether or not an idea is viable in its ability to be used in both successful and unsuccessful ways.  As we all know, or hopefully should, an idea that cannot ever result in failure within a given bound of "balanced" play will never stick around for long even if it did get implemented.  Basically, Rhino's IS should have some form of crack in its armor, something of a potential drawback.

 

As noted, I don't and haven't seen Rhino as a tank at all.  Still I've suspended that notion solely to further the discussion of IS and how it fares in the game's current balance.  It's godmode in low levels and a bit lackluster in endgame, that's not something I figured would be feasible to see changed at first either.  However both genin and Ronyn have come up with interesting ideas which I'd have not expected.  My earlier posts prior to their hopping in were entirely opposed to any of the changes absolutely, as all those changes prior were terrible and lacked foresight into balancing concerns.

 

Short version;  Whether or not Rhino is a tank may as well be irrelevant for this discussion.  A more properly discussable topic however is the modification of IS so that it both provides more appropriate use in endgame while possibly even making it no longer serve as a godmode button in earlygame.  <- If that can become a thing, I can officially remove Rhino from my "frames I find bleh" list, leaving Ash forever alone once and for all.

 

Guys, looking at what we have been proposing for iron skin so far I had a thought...

What if the damage reduction on Iron Skin increased by X percent per enemy under the temporary aggro'ed effect caused by Iron Skin attacks?

The potential good about it is that it directly reward the player for grabbing more attention while lessening the ability to be super tough just by standing around. Not sure about it though..... Something to kick around.

 

I definitely like that idea, a Rhino who specifically decides/dedicates himself to being a tank is rewarded by being allowed to be more tanky.  It fits well for sure and also means that one who doesn't decide to specifically tank, instead playing an alternate playstyle for Rhino, will still be able to work fine without suffering a drawback since he's not getting the increase.

 

The player actively decides how much incoming fire they can hopefully handle, then proceeds to act in kind.  Their DR% gain of course would have some sort of either cap or diminishing returns upon it to prevent it from becoming broken.

 

I don't get how people are saying Rhino isn't meant to tank. It's right in the name FFS, and having the (tied) highest base armor before Valkyr came out (who only got more armor because DE apparently can't design a berserkerframe to save their butts).

 

Valkyr was released after the game's damage balancing became heavily skewed towards an offensive side.  Us having higher offense than defense, and enemies having higher offense than defense.  DE did the best they could given how things were laid out at the time.  Players weren't satisfied with the old system because it lended itself to bullet spongey enemies who weren't a threat for a very long time.  Note;  Some of the longest survivals and highest wave defenses were outlandish before this shift, now they're long of course.  But nowhere near as much as in the past, this shift brought the current "faux endgame" to a closer timeframe in terms of availability.   <- thanks genin  :p

 

Ironically enough (technically not ironic, coincidental, whatever) this is sort of the same reason it's so darn tough to come up with balanced ways to have an appropriate "tank" in Warframe.  The offensively skewed balancing of the game's content means raw defenses have to be insanely high to be considered "good" in most cases.  Between enemy fire rate, density, and damage, the differences amongst various frames' effective HP values doesn't feel like much in most cases.

 

It's not easy making a durable frame in Warframe, but there've been some interesting ideas here and DE have done some gnarly stuff in this realm too.  As someone who came into this thread in full clad negativity armor +5 with an innate bonus to pessimism I've been pretty well shocked at what's been going on.

 

____________ Edityness;  Stuff was posted while I was walling away it seems.  I'll keep this brief.

 

Holey, I completely disagree with your noted ideas in post #701 have some massively glaring issues to say the least.

 

Rather than go on like I tend to I'll pick this part, you don't realize how Rhino gains an immense increase in usability by increasing his Shielding.  Basically increased shielding even on current Rhino acts as a reaction time buffer, if you're snappy fast on the draw it can more than shell off your HP for the brief moments where IS is down.  It's far from useless.

 

In short;  No to your idea.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Bobtm

[geninrising]

  Some of the longest survivals and highest wave defenses were outlandish before this shift, now they're long of course.  But nowhere near as much as in the past, this shift brought the current "faux endgame" to a closer timeframe in terms of availability.

LoL my circle and I have managed to reach the exact same number of waves now(in t4 no less even with nullifiers and bombards) as we have in Damage 1.0. Synergy and planning ftw!

[Bobtm]

LoL my circle and I have managed to reach the exact same number of waves now(in t4 no less even with nullifiers and bombards) as we have in Damage 1.0. Synergy and planning ftw!

 

I...  wha

0.o'

 

*Game gets distinguishably more difficult*  > proceed to preform with the same results as prior anyways.  Whelp, edited my above post accordingly.

[geninrising]

I...  wha

0.o'

 

*Game gets distinguishably more difficult*  > proceed to preform with the same results as prior anyways.  Whelp, edited my above post accordingly.

Np ^^ If you need any pointers I'm happy to oblige :)

[(XBOX)Sgt Batman MD]

Rhino is a face tank frame.  He's designed that way.  His face tank ability is useful throughout most of the game.

 

But it falls short in that it is not designed for the current high-end content.  When it was switched over to its current form, it was more than sufficient to face tank everything in the game.  But with the high level enemies in T4 missions, it is no longer sufficient in its primary purpose.

 

In order for him to be viable in ENDGAME content, iron skin needs to be improved.  Otherwise, I'll just use other frames to face tank.  They're very good at it.  Trinity, Mesa, Valkyr, Mirage... all very very good facetanks.  Rhino isn't, anymore.

 

I find there to be plenty of shadows to facetank as mirage.  I've never had a problem staying in the shadow for as long as I want to on missions where I like to facetank.  If you are unable to find shadows... you're pretty fail at facetanking as mirage.  Meanwhile, Valkyr is completely invulnerable, all the time, throughout every second of every game with the proper build.  If she's not a deliberate facetank, I don't know what is.

 

If the berserker frame can facetank, the facetank frame should be able to facetank.  As far as that 75% I mentioned... it's a copy-paste from mirage's eclipse.  Look it up if you don't believe me.

 

I +1 this, just because how much facetank was used.

[Beetamus]

Classic tank. What definition do you mean? We need to decide on what tank means in this game. People are throwing around this word "tank", mostly in saying Rhino isn't one so I figured I would put my 2 cents in.

 

1. Tank. Originated a long time ago. People say things like "built like a tank" and other similar things. In game, generally think a tank, something that most handheld weapons can't hurt, hence "Tanking the damage". Has powerful weapons and is all kinds of messed up.

 

2. Tank. The definition used mostly by people when talking about someone who makes people attack him, instead of others. Mostly based from computer games that tend to have the trinity (tank, healer, dps). Has little in the way of damage, and is mostly balanced out by that fact. If you don't have the trinity the game is much harder/impossible

 

I'm guessing that most people will agree that both can be applicable to Rhino, I don't think they will ever put aggro back into this game, i'm guessing they took it out for reasons which only they know. Potentially because it's generally too fast paced for aggro tanking?

 

All that being said, i'm all for adding armor to Ironskin. Ironclad Charge may find a place then. I'm pretty sure that most people here would be happy for Ironskin to scale, anything after that, gravy... :)

[geninrising]

Classic tank. What definition do you mean? We need to decide on what tank means in this game. People are throwing around this word "tank", mostly in saying Rhino isn't one so I figured I would put my 2 cents in.

 

1. Tank. Originated a long time ago. People say things like "built like a tank" and other similar things. In game, generally think a tank, something that most handheld weapons can't hurt, hence "Tanking the damage". Has powerful weapons and is all kinds of messed up.

 

2. Tank. The definition used mostly by people when talking about someone who makes people attack him, instead of others. Mostly based from computer games that tend to have the trinity (tank, healer, dps). Has little in the way of damage, and is mostly balanced out by that fact. If you don't have the trinity the game is much harder/impossible

 

I'm guessing that most people will agree that both can be applicable to Rhino, I don't think they will ever put aggro back into this game, i'm guessing they took it out for reasons which only they know. Potentially because it's generally too fast paced for aggro tanking?

 

All that being said, i'm all for adding armor to Ironskin. Ironclad Charge may find a place then. I'm pretty sure that most people here would be happy for Ironskin to scale, anything after that, gravy... :)

You see that is the crux of the situation everyone wants to be a tank with Rhino, however what that also entails is having a dedicated healer for making sure you can sustain all that damage and come out the other end. Otherwise if you are a tank that can do so without said synergy with a healer it is just broken. What has been suggested by pretty much 3 of us in this whole thread is a balanced powerful change that would make Rhino the top tier "facetank" op desires but every time we come up with something balanced and fair he asks for more. It's obscene and I'm almost to the point I want to report him for offensive content(sarcasm, but I honestly would if I could).

 

In fact I'm sincerely on the fence about whether he is being a troll or not because all I here every time I read something he posts it's gimmee gimmeee, I want , I want. Never a single idea that is balanced or un-exploitable in any fashion just tons of irritating demands that we agree with him when obviously we have more experience with the minutia of warframe.

[AJ90]

 

Update:

5 step proposal to balance out damage reduction powers:

Step 1: Remove invulnerability from Valkyr's broken hysteria.

Step 2: Remove power scaling to eclipse and shatter shield.  80% DR for Mesa and 75% for Mirage is more than enough for "glass cannon" type warframes.

Step 3: Buff Rhino's base armor to 300 and apply armor DR to iron skin.  Iron skin health = max shields + max health + power strength.  This makes a full iron skin build require at least four mods (Redirection, vitality, steel fiber, and power strength mods)

Step 4: Add a "Challenging Shout" augment to Roar, to make Rhino draw enemy fire away from teammates and to himself.

Step 5: Buff Frost's armor to 300.  Give Frost an augment to make snow globe more eximus-like in exchange for a significant chunk of its health.... perhaps using the same health and DR formula as iron skin for the eximus version.

 

"Let's make Rhino more tanky, by making the other tanks completely suck!"

 

I don't find this idea intriguing. Iron skin is weaker than Hysteria because Rhino can use guns while it's active, Valkyr is stuck with melee that becomes nearly useless when enemies get above level 60, and Mesa and Mirage can certanly take a few hits, but they're nowhere near Rhino from what I've seen. (I may be wrong on this, I don't play Mirage a lot, but I'm certain about it with Mesa.)

Rhino isn't a bad tank, he is infact on of the best frames in low-mid level missions in my opinion, but he is simple to set up, other frames can do far better in higher missions, but require much more skill and more difficult to obtain mods.

 

Although I do agree with you on the Frost change, that'd be a lovely thing to see, and it'd add incentive to play as his more if you could act like an eximus. That just sounds fun.

[Holeypaladin]

If Rhino is only considered tanky on "low-mid level missions", then there is a serious scaling problem with iron skin.  It seriously needs to scale better to high level content, that's the main issue.  He becomes obsolete and laughable as a tank by T4 missions, and that's pretty ridiculous.

 

I do not object to any sort of reasonable proposal that puts Rhino back into the top position of tankiness... but mostly what I've seen are either "No make him suck as a tank and be a roarbot instead" or "Improve iron skin a little bit but not enough to make him a tank".

 

Iron skin needs significant improvement to put Rhino back into the top tank position.  And even still the god-mode would need to be removed on other abilities (hysteria, shatter shield, eclipse), unless iron skin is going to be somehow providing a 95% DR (which I don't see happening since everyone hates Rhino too much).

[SIDESTRE4M]

Have you not been reading the conversation between geninrising, Bobtm and myself the last few pages?

We have been discussing a way to bring across rhino's aggro mechanics and resilience in a balanced yet effective way.

Have you? I maaaay have missed something. Dare to give a short summary?

 

I mean, we are spiraling anyways... it may actually help.

[Ronyn]

Short version;  Whether or not Rhino is a tank may as well be irrelevant for this discussion.  A more properly discussable topic however is the modification of IS so that it both provides more appropriate use in endgame while possibly even making it no longer serve as a godmode button in earlygame. 

Quite reasonable. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Looking at this from the "If rhino is to tank then X" is the most effective way to get something solved. Unfortunately the "was he or was he not a tank intended to be a tank" question is just as much what this thread started as...

as the how to make him one if we want to is. I fear that it will continue to pop up from page to page.

I will at least, for myself, attempt not to engage in it any further here. On that note:

tank 

Let's go ahead and curb that debate for this thread. Whether he was/is or wasn't/isn't meant to be a tank by DE...

this discussion is about finding a balanced design to make him one. Think of it as a thought experiment if nothing more.

 

 I don't think they will ever put aggro back into this game, i'm guessing they took it out for reasons which only they know. Potentially because it's generally too fast paced for aggro tanking?

I'd never try to claim to know DE's mind so I can't know what they will or won't do.

I can say that "aggro" is just one, out of many forms, of AI priority manipulation.

Several of the frames manipulate it already....from Nyx's blatant control of who enemies attack..

to how loki's decoy and Saryns molt pull aggro away from their casters.

So I see no reason why rhino manipulating AI priority to himself (what folks call aggro) would be any less appropriate.

[Ronyn]

I do not object to any sort of reasonable proposal that puts Rhino back into the top position of tankiness... but mostly what I've seen are either "No make him suck as a tank and be a roarbot instead" or "Improve iron skin a little bit but not enough to make him a tank".

What you're seeing from the Botbm, Geninrising, and myself conversation is a Work in progress.

In fact, I theorize that because the three of us have such different concerns related to it....

our combined perspective is able to catch many of the flaws in one idea, then offer an alternative to improve it.

This kind of collaboration across preference lines is exactly where strong design comes from. 

 

We are settling on the proper mechanics for a functional and balance Iron skin.

Once those are nailed down it will be time to look at the potential numerical values.

You may not see it yet..but let me say I think we are on to something really good.

 

Have you? I maaaay have missed something. Dare to give a short summary? I mean, we are spiraling anyways... it may actually help.

I will have to do that in t he morning when I have  chance to compile the multiple data points we have settled on into one cohesive section.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Let's go ahead and curb that debate for this thread. Whether he was/is or wasn't/isn't meant to be a tank by DE...

this discussion is about finding a balanced design to make him one. Think of it as a thought experiment if nothing more.

 

 

The OP is about "bringing him back" to what he was before. Which is in part incorrect because that was DE not taking care of the numbers they put out in the game. The same thing happened with Ember with her IS version that ended up going too far because of the numbers that can be built up in the game with certain mods.

 

So... i restate what i said originally that he was not a main tank. He could be made into an off-tank but that was mainly possible by using a specific build.

If you want him to be a tank what you are saying is that you want a total rework of the frame. Because if your idea to make him a tank is just pumping up IS more what you are really saying is not that you want a tank but that you want a specific built to be possible. Cause tanking is not just, " i have this shield that can have me ignore hits."

 

Let's start with the total rework, then.

I actually suggested this a long time ago back when we had mod cards for powers. Having different power sets that each focus on one job. Rhino could have a DMG set, a CC set of powers and a tanking set. I think i called the tanking set the Iron set. And it had Iron Roar that gave the whole party an armor bonus, Iron Stomp created walls around you, you know, a sort of snow globe-type power. Dont remember the rest.

 

But i dont think this idea is possible now that there are no mod cards and all powers are built in. Then again, maybe they can add power config options that let you switch between the sets. I've been asking for something like this since they took away Radial Blast cause i really like that power and i want it back.

[Holeypaladin]

I'd really like it if more powers were added to the game and it were possible to swap out powers for your four power slots as needed.

 

But that's more of a complete rework of all of the frames in the game, a much broader scope than Rhino himself.

 

I'd love to see it happen... but I think the idea of adding more powers and letting you customize which you use is a bit too ambitious to hope for in the foreseeable future.  For now all Rhino has is iron skin (which is actually all he needed back when it was epic), so our best way of trying to get him improved is to improve iron skin.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[SIDESTRE4M]

Ok, you want a real tank? No lazyness like cast and forget?

 

How about this:

 

When Iron Skin is cast, Rhino creates a circle, similar to Mesa. All enemies entering this circle will target Rhino, no matter what.

Meanwhile, teammates will get a stealth multiplier or maybe just a multiplier for damage.

Rhino however remains mobile, but he gets 50% slower because of the heavy ironclad skin (balancing reasons) and cannot jump/parkour during that buff.

 

This ability will be toggleable.

He absorbs all damage during activation, but energy depletes constantly.

 

His first skill gets an aoe blastprocc. Roar gets replaced with something else. Stomp can remain.

 

This is my opinion how a real tank should work.

I know this won't please the standard IS-Rhinoob, but it actually has a useful mechanic in a team as tank.

 

He shouldn't be able to get energy from somewhere during that skill.

[Holeypaladin]

I don't know why everyone keeps saying they want Rhino to be slower.  He's already the slowest warframe.  What good is a tank who gets left behind?  He can't tank anything from the rear.

 

Do you enjoy waiting out that full minute countdown at the end of missions?  I don't.  I'd like all warframes to be fast enough to keep up with the team, rather than forcing me to wait at that extraction point for an extended period of time and not contributing to the mission at all.

[SIDESTRE4M]

The team does organize arround the tank. And you don't rush through spots where you 'need' this ability, don't you?

 

If you don't need this, you didn't need a tank at that spot in the first place.

 

Wouldn't you think my idea would be literally op without speed debuff? Team invincibility at rush speed? Seriously?

 

(To be honest, I'm more stunned about the fact you didn't even mention that I negated parkouring in my concept)

 

Edit: I think you didn't understand how I intended this to work. You can go with your team at full speed as much as you want. You pull this trick at tough spots. It scales

well into all levels. You don't rush through those tough spots. If you could, it weren't a tough spot. I think as it is, it's a pretty powerful tool.

You can't be the fastest, sturdiest and laziest at the same time.

Edited January 22, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Ronyn]

The OP is about "bringing him back" to what he was before. Which is in part incorrect because that was DE not taking care of the numbers they put out in the game. The same thing happened with Ember with her IS version that ended up going too far because of the numbers that can be built up in the game with certain mods.

 

So... i restate what i said originally that he was not a main tank. He could be made into an off-tank but that was mainly possible by using a specific build.

If you want him to be a tank what you are saying is that you want a total rework of the frame.  Because if your idea to make him a tank is just pumping up IS more what you are really saying is not that you want a tank but that you want a specific built to be possible. Cause tanking is not just, " i have this shield that can have me ignore hits."

We know your stance, other people have a different stance. Either way we aren't going to keep debating about that here.

And while I agree that Tanking is not just "I have this shield that can can have me ignore hits". 

Many of us don't feel that is the only aspect of rhino that fits the tank archetype already...

and have already been discussing what to do to bring into the tank role beyond JUST increasing IS stats.

That said: we have been looking at altering iron skins mechanics as well as it's stats....

As we have identified that as the key to the issue.

Simply put if Iron Skin somehow allows rhino to pull enemy aggro to himself and survive it that will flesh out his tool set well enough full on tank.

Additionally I would personally like to see some changes in what stats iron skin scales on. 

 

Let's start with the total rework, then.

I actually suggested this a long time ago back when we had mod cards for powers. Having different power sets that each focus on one job. Rhino could have a DMG set, a CC set of powers and a tanking set. I think i called the tanking set the Iron set. And it had Iron Roar that gave the whole party an armor bonus, Iron Stomp created walls around you, you know, a sort of snow globe-type power. Dont remember the rest.

 

But i dont think this idea is possible now that there are no mod cards and all powers are built in. Then again, maybe they can add power config options that let you switch between the sets. I've been asking for something like this since they took away Radial Blast cause i really like that power and i want it back.

I'm certainly open to more modification potential on the powers..

but in the specific case of bringing rhino into the role many of us don't believe that such an extensive rework to the mod system or the frame itself is required.

[geninrising]

I don't know why everyone keeps saying they want Rhino to be slower.  He's already the slowest warframe.  What good is a tank who gets left behind?  He can't tank anything from the rear.

 

Do you enjoy waiting out that full minute countdown at the end of missions?  I don't.  I'd like all warframes to be fast enough to keep up with the team, rather than forcing me to wait at that extraction point for an extended period of time and not contributing to the mission at all.

See this comment right here is why I think you honestly have no clue as to what Rhino actually is. Lets clarify so you can stop trying to make points you fail miserably at. Rhino and frost are both tied at a .9 sprint speed, however that is not taking into account Vanguard helmet(which is situational because not everyone can have it, granted). Saryn is at .95 in third. Rhino PRIME however leaps to a  full 1.0. With the combination of Vanguard helmet and Rhino prime you will have one of the fastest frames in the game. So one of the fastest frames and tied for 2nd in the armor category(along with Frost) and you have not only the second tankiest frame armor wise but when combined with his skillset you get a beast that is capable of damage mitigation through IS/Charge/Stomp and general parkour. In short Rhino has many different means of damage mitigation and the speed to do well in any circumstance he faces.

 

Obviously someone needs to re-think what he "KNOWS" about every frame in the game. Especially considering the fact that you want to come in here and suggest sweeping changes to a game you clearly know little about.

[geninrising]

 

Should we go ahead and start an actionable feedback thread for IS considering OP has not updated his initial post to include the consensus of our idea regarding a balanced and non-exploitable IS? It's is patently obvious that DE will ignore this thread IMO due to OP's outlandish requests.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

My only suggestion for Rhino to be a little more tanky and add some syngery with his Augments:

Allow Armor to add damage mitigation to Iron Skin.

-Steel Fiber and Ironclad Charge will bolster Armor, increasing damage mitigation on Iron Skin.

Steel Fiber raising Armor to 399 would be a decent damahe mitigation for 1200 Iron Skin Armor (level 3 Iron Skin with no power strength); armor mitigation on Iron Skin would give increase Iron Skin effective health from 1200 to 2796.

-Max Intensify and Transient Fortitude would bolster Iron Skin to 2220 with Max Steel Fiber that 2220 becomes 5106 effective Iron Skin health.

Max power strength Iron skin would be 3408 protected by Steel Fiber armor, yields 7838.4 effective Iron skin health.

That is before Armor buffs from Hallowed Ground, WarCry, or Ironclad Charge.

Considering Iron skin unlike Health is not affected by Procs that is good effective Health. He would surpass Valkyr for Effective Health. Endless Survivability can be increased with Ironclad Charge but would require skillful Charge setup.

According to this comment on wiki a user with a Power Strength build was able to get Ironclad Charge buff to 1103%, yielding 1804.5 armor. If that was applied to 3408 Ironskin health it would yield 23907.12 effective Ironskin Health....

20k+ Ironskin effective health not counting the other defensive stats of Rhino, would on my opinion allow him to FaceTank.

That is a huge replenishing buffer for Iron Skin. Also give a better synergy and usage of a Duration build for Ironclad Charge, also bwnwfitting Roar. Iron Shrapnel could be used for maximizing Ironskin effective health by some players.

Rhino would now have a 1-2 combo for high survivability. Not just easy-mode 1 button.

Risk reward with a skillful or lucky Ironclad Charge greatly increasing Ironskin effective health.