Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Ronyn]

---

Should we go ahead and start an actionable feedback thread for IS considering OP has not updated his initial post to include the consensus of our idea regarding a balanced and non-exploitable IS? It's is patently obvious that DE will ignore this thread IMO due to OP's outlandish requests.

 

SOON! If it were up to me I'd like us to kick around this idea a little more so its initial thread has a solid first impression. 

We haven't yet dug into how exactly Iron skin scales and on which stats OR the other problem I have with rhino's design.

 

The other problem I mention is stomp being uneffected by duration mods.

It allows people to slot duration shredding mods whole keeping Rhino's great CC potential.

That feels wrong that he can  just circumvent the system like that...

I'm a huge fan of top and bottom caps (never lower than X seconds, never higher than Y seconds)..

but powers that just circumvent the system are generally not something I agree with. 

also, back in the day some of us were more of the rhino slam style of player.

And without being able to cut down stomps time we can't pull him back to that with any build. 

 

For iron skins scaling I'd like to propose the following-

I'd modify Rhino's stats some. Like I'd set his base armor at 300.

Then allow X percentage of his armor rating to add damage reduction to Iron skin as it does to health.

I' set the HP total of iron on Y percentage of rhinos combined total health and shield numbers.

Iron skin would not be affected by power strength mods at all.

So Iron skins total effective health is X+Y=Z.

 

The idea behind this is that a defensive power should scale on defensive mods.

Rhino is too often being built like a caster these days and that is doing is feeding into him becoming a stomp spammer...

who often doesn't even have to bother to slot shield mods cause he just spams iron skin whenever it breaks.

What we end up with his spam-caster rhino that gets used a too sturdy buffer and CC bot frame.

but isn't effective at actually tanking.

Now I don't want to make spam caster buffer/cc rhino impossible to make.

It's more than I want to shift the stats around so a player can properly choose which way to build him. 

 

This is all in addition to the new mechanics for how iron skin we have been discussing.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[SIDESTRE4M]

So I guess my idea is not liked then... :D

[Ronyn]

 

So I guess my idea is not liked then... :D

It's not bad in itself if you ask me. Its more that....

 

Ok, you want a real tank? No lazyness like cast and forget?

 

How about this:

 

When Iron Skin is cast, Rhino creates a circle, similar to Mesa. All enemies entering this circle will target Rhino, no matter what.

Meanwhile, teammates will get a stealth multiplier or maybe just a multiplier for damage.

Rhino however remains mobile, but he gets 50% slower because of the heavy ironclad skin (balancing reasons) and cannot jump/parkour during that buff.

 

This ability will be toggleable.

He absorbs all damage during activation, but energy depletes constantly.

-

This is my opinion how a real tank should work.

The team does organize arround the tank. And you don't rush through spots where you 'need' this ability, don't you?

If you don't need this, you didn't need a tank at that spot in the first place.

This is somewhat pushing rhino into frosts style of tanking. Frost is the "pick a spot and defend" tank. 

Rhino should remain the mobile, battering ram type tank who goes where he is needed as the need arises.  

 

What we have been proposing isn't lazy at all, it's quite active and rewards skill and tactics.

In an a nutsehll:

When iron skin is cast, any enemy that rhino attacks with guns or powers will be aggro'd to rhino for 10 seconds.

Apply a base DR on Iron skin from the armor stat. Additionally...

Each enemy you aggro increases the DR effect on iron skin up based on the strength of the enemy attacked..

DR has a hard cap so it cant get crazy.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

 

 

SOON! If it were up to me I'd like us to kick around this idea a little more so its initial thread has a solid first impression. 

We haven't yet dug into how exactly Iron skin scales and on which stats OR the other problem I have with rhino's design.

 

The other problem I mention is stomp being uneffected by duration mods.

It allows people to slot duration shredding mods whole keeping Rhino's great CC potential.

That feels wrong that he can  just circumvent the system like that...

I'm a huge fan of top and bottom caps (never lower than X seconds, never higher than Y seconds)..

but powers that just circumvent the system are generally not something I agree with. 

also, back in the day some of us were more of the rhino slam style of player.

And without being able to cut down stomps time we can't pull him back to that with any build. 

 

For iron skins scaling I'd like to propose the following-

I'd modify Rhino's stats some. Like I'd set his base armor at 300.

Then allow X percentage of his armor rating to add damage reduction to Iron skin as it does to health.

I' set the HP total of iron on Y percentage of rhinos combined total health and shield numbers.

Iron skin would not be affected by power strength mods at all.

So Iron skins total effective health is X+Y=Z.

 

The idea behind this is that a defensive power should scale on defensive mods.

Rhino is too often being built like a caster these days and that is doing is feeding into him becoming a stomp spammer...

who often doesn't even have to bother to slot shield mods cause he just seems iron skin whenever it breaks.

What we end up with his spam-caster rhino that gets used a too sturdy buffer and CC bot frame.

but isnt effective at actually tanking.

Now I don't want to make spam caster buffer/cc rhino impossible to make.

It's more than I want to shift the stats around so a player can properly choose which way to build him. 

 

This is all in addition to the new mechanics for how iron skin we have been discussing.

 

Hmm the proposed change in this scenario leaves IS in a horribly low state of EHP even considering possible DR. Plus still negates any kind of scaling aspect for late game use and in general he would be worse off than he is now. With a maxed Vit and Red, Rhino would have 1850 worth of IS. at that point the DR of even 300 AR would be fairly insignificant when facing multiple enemies in any high tiered mission. I feel this would negate some of Rhino's usefulness.

 

How about we have Stomp scale with duration minimum 3 seconds maximum 10 seconds and have IS with the previously mentioned features converting it to duration based as well in order to curb the ability to have IS up constantly and still be a roar stomp bot? But of course then we feed into the Roar/stomp/IS mentality which would allow Rhino to have 3 very valuable skills to spam HOWEVER in that case Roar would be hampered heavily. So the individual would need to decide if they want spam OR IS/Roar/Charge/long CC stomp  IS build would be far superior in this case so IDK if it would be good or not. 

 

In my given example of a long duration based Rhino, all skills would be empowered and the player would just need to ensure intelligent use of stomp rather than the whole stomp any enemy in sight on a spam build. That may balance things out overall because for a spam build they lose viability of 2 abilities but when making an IS build all skills are useful.

[Ronyn]

Hmm the proposed change in this scenario leaves IS in a horribly low state of EHP even considering possible DR. Plus still negates any kind of scaling aspect for late game use and in general he would be worse off than he is now. With a maxed Vit and Red, Rhino would have 1850 worth of IS. at that point the DR of even 300 AR would be fairly insignificant when facing multiple enemies in any high tiered mission. I feel this would negate some of Rhino's usefulness.

Let's look at that again. The numbers I came to based on the Wiki-

With maxed redirection, vitality and vigor, if we are taking 100 percent of that combined number, Iron Skin is at 2175.

With 300 base armor plus a maxed steal fiber mod is 610, if we are taking 100 percent of that combined number, iron skin has the EHP of.. 6525. If we need Iron skins numbers to be  higher or lower we can alter the percentage taken from the base states.

And of course that is before the whole DR buffs from Aggro grabs.

 

For reference the current max EHP of iron skin with all power strength mods equipped is 3408. 

 

EDIT1: realistically new players don't have all of those mods and certainly not maxed out.

So this may even help lower iron skins OPness in early levels.

 

EDIT2: plus with iron skin scaling off of defensive mods people will be more likely to slot defensive mods meaning rhino is more sturdy when iron skin is down in my idea than he is now.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

 

It's not bad in itself if you ask me. Its more that....

 

This is somewhat pushing rhino into frosts style of tanking. Frost is the "pick a spot and defend" tank. 

Rhino should remain the mobile, battering ram type tank who goes where he is needed as the need arises.  

 

What we have been proposing isn't lazy at all, it's quite active and rewards skill and tactics.

In an a nutsehll:

When iron skin is cast, any enemy that rhino attacks with guns or powers will be aggro'd to rhino for 10 seconds.

Apply a base DR on Iron skin from the armor stat. Additionally...

Each enemy you aggro increases the DR effect on iron skin up based on the strength of the enemy attacked..

DR has a hard cap so it cant get crazy.

 

I didn't want to accuse you guys of wanting a lazy skill. You are the only ones here beeing creative.

 

I understand what you mean. I still think it's different from Frost. However, Frost comes with his own problems.

 

If I understand your proposal right, Rhino would have to mark all enemies with his gun. I'm not sure if that will work out practically. Wouldn't he be dead by the time trying it?

[Ronyn]

If I understand your proposal right, Rhino would have to mark all enemies with his gun. I'm not sure if that will work out practically. Wouldn't he be dead by the time trying it?

He would have to mark all enemies with his gun or powers. Meaning that he could turn on iron skin, use charge through a line of enemies then hit stomp in the middle of a crowd.....resulting in all of those enemies being aggro'ed on him...then shoot or swing his weapon to grab even more.

And the more he aggro's the stronger iron skin gets.

Of course we are still looking at finding the right base EHP number for iron skin so he has the time to do what he needs to do.

That's what-

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382685-bring-back-iron-skin-face-tanking/page-37#entry4294956

and

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382685-bring-back-iron-skin-face-tanking/page-37#entry4295135

and

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382685-bring-back-iron-skin-face-tanking/page-37#entry4295271

are about.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[Valkyr-Umbra]

 

Update:

5 step proposal to balance out damage reduction powers:

Step 1: Remove invulnerability from Valkyr's broken hysteria.

Step 2: Remove power scaling to eclipse and shatter shield.  80% DR for Mesa and 75% for Mirage is more than enough for "glass cannon" type warframes.

Step 3: Buff Rhino's base armor to 300 and apply armor DR to iron skin.  Iron skin health = max shields + max health + power strength.  This makes a full iron skin build require at least four mods (Redirection, vitality, steel fiber, and power strength mods)

Step 4: Add a "Challenging Shout" augment to Roar, to make Rhino draw enemy fire away from teammates and to himself.

Step 5: Buff Frost's armor to 300.  Give Frost an augment to make snow globe more eximus-like in exchange for a significant chunk of its health.... perhaps using the same health and DR formula as iron skin for the eximus version.

Step 1: No. Valkyr would be worthless at endgame without invulnerability, and nullifiers balance it out. Keep in mind that, while valkyr is invincible during hysteria, her offensive capabilities are severely reduced creating balance (she can't even touch nullifiers.)

 

Step 2: No. The point of those abilities is to add some survivability to these frames, so they're not 1 hit constantly. Also, these abilities take more skill to use than rhino skin.

 

Step 3: There should be some sort of scaling or something, some way for rhino to tank at endgame (that's skill-based, not "push a button for god-mode") Maybe a brief window of invincibility, or enemy damage caps at a certain amount of rhino's health per shot... You'd still have to play smart, and avoid automatic guns, but something like a nullifier snipe would be much less of a problem.

 

Step 4: I feel like something like this could work, but again, it would need to be skill based, not "invincible-aggro drawing rhino"

 

Step 5: An augment making snow globe mobile would be useful (and not necessarily imbalanced). Maybe rather then sacrifice health you sacrifice the enemy slow, to keep it from being OP?

Edited January 22, 2015 by Snowman486

[geninrising]

Let's look at that again. The numbers I came to based on the Wiki-

With maxed redirection, vitality and vigor, if we are taking 100 percent of that combined number, Iron Skin is at 2175.

With 300 base armor plus a maxed steal fiber mod is 610, if we are taking 100 percent of that combined number, iron skin has the EHP of.. 6525. If we need Iron skins numbers to be  higher or lower we can alter the percentage taken from the base states.

And of course that is before the whole DR buffs from Aggro grabs.

 

For reference the current max EHP of iron skin with all power strength mods equipped is 3408. 

 

EDIT1: realistically new players don't have all of those mods and certainly not maxed out.

So this may even help lower iron skins OPness in early levels.

 

EDIT2: plus with iron skin scaling off of defensive mods people will be more likely to slot defensive mods meaning rhino is more sturdy when iron skin is down in my idea than he is now.

Wait so you want DR based on armor AND number of aggro'd targets? By your calculations IS would in that situation already be FAR more powerful than it's current iteration PRIOR to any DR at all. then we put 600+armor an it which effectively triples his EHP putting it at 6525 and THEN extra DR based on aggro'd targets? FAR FAR too much my friend. That is godtank.

Step 1: No. Valkyr would be worthless at endgame without invulnerability, and nullifiers balance it out. Keep in mind that, while valkyr is invincible during hysteria, her offensive capabilities are severely reduced creating balance (she can't even touch nullifiers.)

 

The funny thing about that thought is that her melee hits their shields so she CAN kill them np if you are smart.

[Ronyn]

Wait so you want DR based on armor AND number of aggro'd targets? 

Yes.

 

By your calculations IS would in that situation already be FAR more powerful than it's current iteration PRIOR to any DR at all. then we put 600+armor an it which effectively triples his EHP putting it at 6525 and THEN extra DR based on aggro'd targets? FAR FAR too much my friend. That is godtank.

No. Not at all.

Like I said....if we need the base number to be higher or lower we can change the percentage it takes from base stats.

If it takes 10 percent of health and armor its useless, If it takes 50 percent of health and armor its one thing, If it takes 100 percent of health and armor its another thing, If it takes 200 percent of health and armor its crazy as heck.

Once we start talking numerical values it's a matter of the specific number. 

 

The mechanic of iron skin being based on defense mods is solid because of how it affects the builds.

The numbers on that mechanic just need to be played with until they make sense.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[Valkyr-Umbra]

 

The funny thing about that thought is that her melee hits their shields so she CAN kill them np if you are smart.

 

That's true, if there's only 1 nullifier, and until the nullifer takes a step in your direction. By the time you're 40-60 minutes in, its to risky, hysteria goes down and you insta-die. To say that its no problem is quite an exaggeration, its barely even viable.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Snowman486

[geninrising]

Yes.

 

No. Not at all.

Like I said....if we need the base number to be higher or lower we can change the percentage it takes from base stats.

If it takes 10 percent of health and armor its useless, If it takes 50 percent of health and armor its one thing, If it takes 100 percent of health and armor its another thing, If it takes 200 percent of health and armor its crazy as heck.

Once we start talking numerical values it's a matter of the specific number. 

 

The mechanic of iron skin being based on defense mods is solid because of how it affects the builds.

The numbers on that mechanic just need to be played with until they make sense.

Ok that makes much more sense. Sorry for my confusion. I was just taking it all in at 100% value.

[Bobtm]

Sadly the raw numbers part is where I become nothing more than dead weight.  I've spent basically 99% of my entire playtime in Warframe operating under the concept where mobility > than all other forms of damage mitigation combined, so I have a very skewed opinion/mindset on EHP values.  This sort of puts me in a place where I genuinely can't be of notable use in this part of the conversation.

 

I'll mostly leave that up to you guys who definitely have more experience in that area.  Mechanics and such I'm good with though, I just fall short with numbers.

   ______________

 

As far as your idea SIDESTRE4M, it's not necessarily bad by any means.  I'm still re-reading and thinking on it right at this very moment actually.  If I'm going with my short term reaction I'd much rather toss that idea in with what I had tried to proposed much, much earlier in this thread, from before these more feasible discussions became a thing.  That was basically me saying something along these lines;  "A lot of how Rhino works currently makes it rough for him to be a solid tank, so let's instead come up with an alternate frame which very rigidly speaks to tanking as its core intent."

 

As Ronyn noted above, Rhino has also always felt a bit more mobile in his vibe to me in his tanking style while Frost, as noted also, speaks to the "pick a spot and guard it" realm of play.  It wouldn't hurt to have another tank-like frame in either area of course, but since Rhino is arguably within the former style I don't think it's necessary to swap him to the latter side.

 

If I had to pick out a potential flaw in your idea it would be that, since you note that Rhino wouldn't be capable of taking any damage during this skill while forcing all targets in range to only hit him, a very dedicated team with two Rhinos and timing/coordination could swap out their actively tanking Rhino in a Defense and make it so nothing hits the pod, ever.  The easiest solution I can come up with would be to make it so he just has very high aggro generation, but not deadlocked aggro control.  Basically much more in-line with what we see on Loki's Decoy currently, as foes can and will at times ignore it to deal with other threats.

 

It's an interesting alternate route for sure, it just doesn't feel Rhino to me, more or less.

[Ronyn]

Ok that makes much more sense. Sorry for my confusion. I was just taking it all in at 100% value.

Gotcha. 

 

Sadly the raw numbers part is where I become nothing more than dead weight.  I've spent basically 99% of my entire playtime in Warframe operating under the concept where mobility > than all other forms of damage mitigation combined, so I have a very skewed opinion/mindset on EHP values.  This sort of puts me in a place where I genuinely can't be of notable use in this part of the conversation.

 

I'll mostly leave that up to you guys who definitely have more experience in that area.  Mechanics and such I'm good with though, I just fall short with numbers.

The reason I always write stuff like "This skill would be alter by X percentage" or "last for X seconds" is because getting numbers nailed down is tricky. More to the point if anything requires actual play testing to get right it's specific numerical values. They are also the easiest thing to pop in and change from the developer standpoint so I don't worry too much about how close or far I am from the right number at the discussion stage. Where the mechanic themselves are generally harder to create in a game. Not to say that mechanics don't also need play testing to get right as well..

 

As a sidenote: you're right about mobility in a sort of general sense. At the same time there are circumstances where that isn't the case.

The most obvious examples: In defense and excavation missions there is a stationary object that has to be protected. Or when a player is downed.

That is where someone with the ability to more directly mitigate incoming damage is more effective than someones ability to evade it.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[SIDESTRE4M]

Sadly the raw numbers part is where I become nothing more than dead weight.  I've spent basically 99% of my entire playtime in Warframe operating under the concept where mobility > than all other forms of damage mitigation combined, so I have a very skewed opinion/mindset on EHP values.  This sort of puts me in a place where I genuinely can't be of notable use in this part of the conversation.

 

I'll mostly leave that up to you guys who definitely have more experience in that area.  Mechanics and such I'm good with though, I just fall short with numbers.

   ______________

 

As far as your idea SIDESTRE4M, it's not necessarily bad by any means.  I'm still re-reading and thinking on it right at this very moment actually.  If I'm going with my short term reaction I'd much rather toss that idea in with what I had tried to proposed much, much earlier in this thread, from before these more feasible discussions became a thing.  That was basically me saying something along these lines;  "A lot of how Rhino works currently makes it rough for him to be a solid tank, so let's instead come up with an alternate frame which very rigidly speaks to tanking as its core intent."

 

As Ronyn noted above, Rhino has also always felt a bit more mobile in his vibe to me in his tanking style while Frost, as noted also, speaks to the "pick a spot and guard it" realm of play.  It wouldn't hurt to have another tank-like frame in either area of course, but since Rhino is arguably within the former style I don't think it's necessary to swap him to the latter side.

 

If I had to pick out a potential flaw in your idea it would be that, since you note that Rhino wouldn't be capable of taking any damage during this skill while forcing all targets in range to only hit him, a very dedicated team with two Rhinos and timing/coordination could swap out their actively tanking Rhino in a Defense and make it so nothing hits the pod, ever.  The easiest solution I can come up with would be to make it so he just has very high aggro generation, but not deadlocked aggro control.  Basically much more in-line with what we see on Loki's Decoy currently, as foes can and will at times ignore it to deal with other threats.

 

It's an interesting alternate route for sure, it just doesn't feel Rhino to me, more or less.

 

That's right. But Nyx can do it already, so I thought it would be ok.

[Mak_Gohae]

We know your stance, other people have a different stance. Either way we aren't going to keep debating about that here.

And while I agree that Tanking is not just "I have this shield that can can have me ignore hits". 

Many of us don't feel that is the only aspect of rhino that fits the tank archetype already...

and have already been discussing what to do to bring into the tank role beyond JUST increasing IS stats.

That said: we have been looking at altering iron skins mechanics as well as it's stats....

As we have identified that as the key to the issue.

Simply put if Iron Skin somehow allows rhino to pull enemy aggro to himself and survive it that will flesh out his tool set well enough full on tank.

Additionally I would personally like to see some changes in what stats iron skin scales on. 

 

I'm certainly open to more modification potential on the powers..

but in the specific case of bringing rhino into the role many of us don't believe that such an extensive rework to the mod system or the frame itself is required.

 

You know that this post is actually saying, "Fix IS and that would make him a tank."

This exactly what i said about folks just wanting this one build to come back.

This whole thing is just about IS, that's the only thing you are worrying about.

The OPs post still applies.

[Ronyn]

You know that this post is actually saying, "Fix IS and that would make him a tank."

Sort of. What my post is actually saying is- 

"Rhino has three tank-archetype powers, one of them is currently underperforming on many fronts, fix it and he will have the part he is missing to be a tank."

Where you are saying-

"iron skin is the only tank power rhino has, so trying to fix it to make him a tank results in a one power focused build." 

 

We are of very different opinions here and that affects a lot of how we see each change.

 

This exactly what i said about folks just wanting this one build to come back.

If by this "one build" you mean one that revolves around using most of Rhino's kit to tank...then sure.

If by this "one build" you mean one that revolves around just using Iron skin to tank...then no.

 

This whole thing is just about IS, that's the only thing you are worrying about.

eh.... I also want his power scaling to be set up so his mod builds vary more appropriately to the players specific goals..

yes, that means having iron skin scale on defense mods but it also means Stomp builds having to factor in duration issues, and how that all interacts with charge and roar. 

 

The OPs post still applies.

Would that be the original post that he is modifying based on what is being discussed here?

Yet doesn't include the full spectrum of what some of those I have been collaborating with have proposed....

------

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[UnknownGunneryChief]

Holeypaladin, even that old video says "Rhino specializes in crowd control". Your arguments are BS, your proposal would make Rhino much better than he needs to be. You simply have to understand that facetanking should have disadvantages, yet IS has none. You should be happy, especially with the IS augment which makes it an AoE knockdown so you can recast it again safely. DEAL WITH IT

[Ronyn]

Holeypaladin, even that old video says "Rhino specializes in crowd control". Your arguments are BS, your proposal would make Rhino much better than he needs to be. You simply have to understand that facetanking should have disadvantages, yet IS has none. You should be happy, especially with the IS augment which makes it an AoE knockdown so you can recast it again safely. DEAL WITH IT

Whatch the whole video. Yes it says he focuses on crowd control, it also say"almost unstoppable tank"

Crowd control and tank aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Not to mention various other words are there.

Whatever you think of his propasal....don't dismiss part of the video as if its only one line long.

If some of you folks don't want to consider rhino a tank that's your business.

If you want to say those videos don't matter anymore I can at least understand.

But for goodness sake stop pretending the video doesn't call him one.

[Holeypaladin]

See this comment right here is why I think you honestly have no clue as to what Rhino actually is. Lets clarify so you can stop trying to make points you fail miserably at. Rhino and frost are both tied at a .9 sprint speed, however that is not taking into account Vanguard helmet(which is situational because not everyone can have it, granted). Saryn is at .95 in third. Rhino PRIME however leaps to a  full 1.0. 

Can't balance the game around exclusive content.  Arcane helmets are exclusive in that they haven't been obtainable for a year, therefore can't balance around them.  Rhino prime is the third slowest warframe, but can't balance powers around primes either.

 

Rhino IS the slowest warframe.  This is correct.

 

 

 

For iron skins scaling I'd like to propose the following-

I'd modify Rhino's stats some. Like I'd set his base armor at 300.

Then allow X percentage of his armor rating to add damage reduction to Iron skin as it does to health.

I' set the HP total of iron on Y percentage of rhinos combined total health and shield numbers.

Iron skin would not be affected by power strength mods at all.

So Iron skins total effective health is X+Y=Z.

 

 

This looks a lot like my newest proposal for iron skin on the top post of this page, so of course I agree.  100% of all three values is the best way for it to work, mathematically, in order to be on the same level as Trinity's powers.

 

 

Also, aggro tanking is a form of crowd control.  So they are one in the same.  It's just currently the worst form of cloud control because iron skin sucks at high levels.

 

For those of you who say Hysteria should keep its invulnerability... if Valkyr gets invulnerability and gets to keep it, then Iron Skin should go back to invulnerability as well.  I don't think that's what you want, so just get rid of the invulnerability from hysteria.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Bobtm]

wait, wrong quote, just a moment.  It's just Ronyn's quoted text in Holey's post above ^

 

That math of things sounds pretty sound to me as well (on paper).  Only thing I can't help but wonder is something else here, granted it is minor but still.  Currently Rhino's IS is a "standard" 2, meaning it costs 50.  This reworked IS seems to be potentially a bit more powerful than a standard 2 would be.  Still I'd say it's not anywhere near "ult" territory of course and I don't think a chost change is necessarily needed.

 

For some reason my brain is screaming 65 on this note, basically it's a slight cut above what would be considered a standard 2, but it's still not encroaching into the upper tier cost categories of 3s or 4s.  On that same trend, I'm a bit surprised there aren't more frames who have non-standardized ability costs than exist currently.  Well I suppose I forgot about how a lot of costs changed when they added toggled abilities... but whatever.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Bobtm

[Holeypaladin]

Keep in mind that Eclipse only costs 25.  For 95% DR in the shade or 200% weapon bonus in the light.  For only 25 energy.

 

Energy costs aren't necessarily the best way to measure an ability's power.  Smoke bomb costs as much as Invisibility for a much shorter duration and unable to cast while airborne.  Just the way it works.

[geninrising]

For iron skins scaling I'd like to propose the following-

I'd modify Rhino's stats some. Like I'd set his base armor at 300.

Then allow X percentage of his armor rating to add damage reduction to Iron skin as it does to health.

I' set the HP total of iron on Y percentage of rhinos combined total health and shield numbers.

Iron skin would not be affected by power strength mods at all.

So Iron skins total effective health is X+Y=Z.

I can agree to this, however I have to say I am not comfortable with 100% of hp and shields into the equation.

I would suggest we start it out at 50% and then have it be tweaked from there. Quite frankly we are completely unsure of the ramifications of that much EHP and I feel it would be better to implement it underpowered and get it buffed up if it still does not do the trick. DE has a horrible history of making things OP only to crap on us later because something was too strong. Remember we are talking about a hefty buff to Rhino's base armor and talking inclusion of Steel Fiber, Redirection, and Vitality into the build. All a Rhino would need to do in order to get God tank is Fleeting, Streamline and the Iron shrapnel augment and never be touched again if we are not careful. Not to mention the fact that they could forgo the steel fiber in order to use the Iron clad charge augment and potentially get waaaay more armor than a steel fiber.

[geninrising]

I can agree to this, however I have to say I am not comfortable with 100% of hp and shields into the equation.

I would suggest we start it out at 50% and then have it be tweaked from there. Quite frankly we are completely unsure of the ramifications of that much EHP and I feel it would be better to implement it underpowered and get it buffed up if it still does not do the trick. DE has a horrible history of making things OP only to crap on us later because something was too strong. Remember we are talking about a hefty buff to Rhino's base armor and talking inclusion of Steel Fiber, Redirection, and Vitality into the build. All a Rhino would need to do in order to get God tank is Fleeting, Streamline and the Iron shrapnel augment and never be touched again if we are not careful. Not to mention the fact that they could forgo the steel fiber in order to use the Iron clad charge augment and potentially get waaaay more armor than a steel fiber.

Heck for that matter just include all mods I've stated, Fleeting, Streamline, Redirection, Vitality,Iron Shrapnel, Ironclad Charge, Primed continuity, and Primed Flow. God tank build.  I can already see a build to exploit the hell out of it and that has be iffy on the proposed formula.

 

And that would be easily exploitable at the 50% rate I stated due to the DR.

Edited January 23, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

Keep in mind that Eclipse only costs 25.  For 95% DR in the shade or 200% weapon bonus in the light.  For only 25 energy.

 

Energy costs aren't necessarily the best way to measure an ability's power.  Smoke bomb costs as much as Invisibility for a much shorter duration and unable to cast while airborne.  Just the way it works.

For me cost is a non issue and as it would be the core ability of Rhino I feel that it could be 30 energy, which in an IS build of this type would cost 15 energy or less. My concern is strictly the exploitative nature of such a change.

 

We already have so many ways to exploit the energy system and putting another invincibility frame in is not the way to get away from that.

 

My definition of invincible is, a means to create a loop of circumstances that guarantee enemies cannot possibly kill you.

Which is precisely what it would be in the hands of a good player.

 

This is exactly the same problem I have with ultimates atm being able to be used repeatedly due to an energy loophole for a virtually infinite period of time.

Edited January 23, 2015 by geninrising