Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[geninrising]

Everything you described Rhino as is outclassed by Nova.

 

Nova can easily reach locations.

 

Nova mitigates damage by slowing enemies.

 

Nova also makes it easier to kill threats by making the enemies take a lot more damage.

 

So you contradicted yourself, since Rhino obviously has no niche to himself, everything you described him as being good at, Nova is much better at.

What I state specifically time and time again is that the game does not take into account what other frames can do at any given time. That specifically is what makes each frame unique and stand out. The fact that frames are not judged in any side by side comparison is how they maintain their individuality and quite frankly the majority of us do not see any of the problems that you espouse with this philosophy. So if you cannot get the majority of players involved here to back any one of your many ill thought out ideas, what makes you think DE would ever give you the time of day? Suck it up cupcake, you aren't having any effect other than to frustrate us rational individuals.

[Holeypaladin]

If a single frame in the game has higher durability than Rhino in most circumstances, then he no longer has a tank niche.  The numbers I've suggested are the only way I've seen to provide him higher durability in all circumstances than all other frames in order to hold his tank niche.

 

Can it get any simpler than that?

[Holeypaladin]

What I state specifically time and time again is that the game does not take into account what other frames can do at any given time. That specifically is what makes each frame unique and stand out. The fact that frames are not judged in any side by side comparison is how they maintain their individuality and quite frankly the majority of us do not see any of the problems that you espouse with this philosophy. So if you cannot get the majority of players involved here to back any one of your many ill thought out ideas, what makes you think DE would ever give you the time of day? Suck it up cupcake, you aren't having any effect other than to frustrate us rational individuals.

You are not the majority.  You are only one person.

 

You have no idea what the majority wants.  Only what you want.

 

RATIONAL individuals seek to maximize the benefits and minimize the penalties, without any emotional attachments to speak of since emotions are not rational.  So the rational individual will always use the most powerful frame, all the time, without exception.  And never use Rhino since he's not the most powerful at anything.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

You are not the majority.  You are only one person.

 

You have no idea what the majority wants.  Only what you want.

 

RATIONAL individuals seek to maximize the benefits and minimize the penalties, without any emotional attachments to speak of since emotions are not rational.  So the rational individual will always use the most powerful frame, all the time, without exception.  And never use Rhino since he's not the most powerful at anything.

Well if we take this thread alone into consideration for talks on what the majority of players want then yes I can be seen as a clear indicator as a part of the majority. Additionally in my time here in the forums it has ever been the same. The majority of players want balanced useful abilities. However it is the minority that desire over powered easy mode buttons. You sir at every opportunity have demanded easy mode suggestions and thus cause your own plight of constant disagreements and chiding from the rest of the players involved in this discussion.

 

Why do YOU think we tell you NO over and over again?

[Bobtm]

If a single frame in the game has higher durability than Rhino in most circumstances, then he no longer has a tank niche.  The numbers I've suggested are the only way I've seen to provide him higher durability in all circumstances than all other frames in order to hold his tank niche.

 

Can it get any simpler than that?

 

The issue which I just tried to illustrate is that you're over simplifying the issue... blaringly so.

 

I'm going to spell this out for you directly.  Currently, Rhino has a higher effective survivability than Mesa, and Mirage hands down.  Beyond this, Rhino has better combat options than Trinity, whilst not needing to risk his own HP levels or that of his teammates in order to maximize his defensive capabilities.  Lastly, Rhino does not need to reduce his combat effectiveness in any way to provide himself with defensive boots, unlike Valkyr.

 

The only reason you believe the numbers stated are the only way is because you have a very skewed viewpoint on the issue at hand.

 

Take your own advice and actually look at the variables present.

[Holeypaladin]

Far as I can tell, you're a very vocal minority.  That's not the same thing as a majority.

 

The majority of people don't even read the forums or check them ever except maybe to see the news.  The majority are the people who start off playing Rhino at low levels but then move on to better frames when Rhino becomes useless as a tank at higher levels.  They'd continue to play Rhino if they could, but they stop because iron skin falls short when it comes to high-level content.

 

But there is a very vocal minority who outright opposes any sort of buff to Rhino, since they see him as a noob frame with an easy mode button.  A tanky warframe makes it easier to solo, and in order to clear most of the star chart they have to solo most missions since all the veteran players spend most of their time in the void.

 

And no, Rhino does NOT have better survivability than Mirage and Mesa.  I've already proven this point with math.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Ronyn]

The problem with your statement is that DE has already clearly stated their balance points and thus we must adhere to said philosophy as well.

DE refuses to balance anything for places beyond the normal star map so anything else is all skill. That's a fact and one we must d

the point I'm making is that when it comes to this issue.... de states one thing verbally then creates a wildly inconsistant enviroment with their actions. They aren't following their own rules.

Also-If 40 if the end certain things are just too dang strong.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Ronyn

[Bobtm]

Far as I can tell, you're a very vocal minority.  That's not the same thing as a majority.

 

The majority of people don't even read the forums or check them ever except maybe to see the news.  The majority are the people who start off playing Rhino at low levels but then move on to better frames when Rhino becomes useless as a tank at higher levels.  They'd continue to play Rhino if they could, but they stop because iron skin falls short when it comes to high-level content.

 

But there is a very vocal minority who outright opposes any sort of buff to Rhino, since they see him as a noob frame with an easy mode button.  A tanky warframe makes it easier to solo, and in order to clear most of the star chart they have to solo most missions since all the veteran players spend most of their time in the void.

 

And no, Rhino does NOT have better survivability than Mirage and Mesa.  I've already proven this point with math.

 

I don't oppose direct buffs to Rhino for silly and subjective reasons like "he's a noob frame" or anything of the sort.  That's the wrong way to go about things when trying to approach the realm of gameplay balancing.  I oppose direct buffs to Rhino because he's not, in any respect, a weak or underpowered frame.

 

I've already and constantly stated this, but I'll say it again.  Where does Rhino really lack, as a frame?

• Sprint speed?  He's a grand total of a mere 10% slower than average... that's not slow by any merit.  Further compounded by the fact that there are countless mobility options which circumvent sprinting speed. 
• Standard stat variables?  He's got some of the outright best core stats in the game when looked at in comparison to the other frames.  He really don't lack in any given area to a degree which hampers his effectiveness. 
• What about skill variety?  The only skill type which Rhino can argualbly be said to lack is a mobility skill.  However one can build for Duration and utilize 1 for incredibly fast movement atops its normal usability. 
• Supportive capabilities?  Rhino is on the short list of frames which have literal direct supportive abilities, this being his 3.  In addition all CC effects can be said to be support type skills, and his 4 provides a more than adequate CC option which has few downsides. 
• Defensive traits?  He's one of the very short list of frames who can outright ignore all incoming CC effects.  Having the ability to wall off his true vital stats is nothing to sneeze at atop that.

 

At the end of the day, it's not like we're arbitrafily opposed to buffs for Rhino for no reason here.  Further than that Ronyn and genin have proposed ways to make Rhino's IS potentially more viable as a standalone defensive trait in "endgame" scenarios that don't outright break the skill by giving it ludicrous levels of non-conditional damage resistance.

 

Just to cover the underlined briefly;  No you haven't.  You've never provided any such thing as you're making biased and unfounded claims.

[Holeypaladin]

Where does Rhino really lack, as a frame?

That's the wrong question.  For any frame.

 

The proper question should be, "What is Rhino amazing at, as a frame?  In what niche is Rhino the undisputed best at what he does?"

 

And the answer is... nowhere.  There is no one particular area where Rhino is better than all other frames.

 

And that's why there's no point in playing Rhino.  He's just bland and doesn't have an area in which he's the champion.

 

There are other frames that are bland and don't have an area of excellence.  But those are different topics, this one is about Rhino.  And about where his expertise should lie... in the tank role.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Bobtm]

>buzzer noise<  Sorry but you're wildly incorrect on that point Holey, and here's why.

 

In numerous types of games, even going back to good ol' pen & paper, there are some character types (classes, jobs, roles, etc) which fall into a very specific category known as "Jack of all trades".  Furthermore, this archetype has a saying to go with it, as follows.

 

Jack of all trades, and master of none.

 

If somene has now drawbacks, then why is it, should they be able to somehow excel over a specialist in a given realm?  He's not better than anyone in specified realms of play, but he's better at them than their weak points.  Rhino isn't the worst frame in any area of play, he's never been that.  Heck it's safe to say he's even above average in more than half of the given realms which characters can fall into.  The only stat he actually has lower than average is his speed, and that's only by a 10% margin.

[Holeypaladin]

Jacks of all trades are useless.  No one wants them.  Ever.  They want someone to fulfill a specialized role, because being amazing at one thing, when combined with three other people who are amazing at complimentary roles, is better than being bland at everything and unable to provide anything particularly useful to the team.

 

Everyone who's studied economics can tell you that specialization is the way to go.
 

Excalibur was designed as the jack of all trades frame... and guess what?  No one used him at all until they made him the master of "Press 4 to kill everything in the room."

Edited January 24, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Bobtm]

Jacks of all trades are useless.  No one wants them.  Ever.  They want someone to fulfill a specialized role, because being amazing at one thing, when combined with three other people who are amazing at complimentary roles, is better than being bland at everything and unable to provide anything particularly useful to the team.

 

Everyone who's studied economics can tell you that specialization is the way to go.

 

That's a blatant misconception right here.  Heck use Warframe's very own playerbase as an example here?  Guess who's overused, and overly popularized... I'll even give you three whole guesses.

 

Jake of all trades archetypes are actually pretty popular amongst what could be considered a "casual" playerbase, even moreso when they've got a slight skew at least towards a defensive realm of play.  Our golden boy Rhino has just that, and he's quite popular (crud, I gave away the answer).  Economics and video games are entirely different realms of stuff here, so that statement you made hols absolutely no validity to it.

 

If people didn't like Jack of all trades types, Rhino would be like Banshee, Banshee is highly specialized and an outright amazingly good frame.  Yet nobody plays Banshee.

 

The core from where you're approaching pretty much the entirety of these issues here is... well it's outright falsified.  No matter how intelligent one may be, if they start theorizing from an entirely incorrect plane they'll always get nothing but wrong answers.

[geninrising]

Far as I can tell, you're a very vocal minority.  That's not the same thing as a majority.

 

The majority of people don't even read the forums or check them ever except maybe to see the news.  The majority are the people who start off playing Rhino at low levels but then move on to better frames when Rhino becomes useless as a tank at higher levels.  They'd continue to play Rhino if they could, but they stop because iron skin falls short when it comes to high-level content.

 

But there is a very vocal minority who outright opposes any sort of buff to Rhino, since they see him as a noob frame with an easy mode button.  A tanky warframe makes it easier to solo, and in order to clear most of the star chart they have to solo most missions since all the veteran players spend most of their time in the void.

 

And no, Rhino does NOT have better survivability than Mirage and Mesa.  I've already proven this point with math.

Really and what about all the variables that you have ignored? and what about my clearly defined experience that I just posted yesterday with an entire mod set up to tank on Mirage failing where my Rhino build built for all around success did not? You have proved NOTHING except that the numbers of a various specific set of skills show that Mirage ,Trinity, and Mesa have damage reduction, whereas Rhino has damage IMMUNITY for a certain amount. The only thing you have done is further point out the strength of his kit for tanking.

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino is popular because new players THINK he is a tank.  Because they don't know any better, haven't had time to compare the numbers and look at what all the other frames have.

 

But Rhino is popular primarily among the new players because they believe him to be a tank frame.  And because he is overpowered at low levels due to scaling issues with iron skin, the same thing that makes him underpowered at high levels.

 

It's got nothing to do with the whole "jack of all trades" thing.  That's still Excalibur.  Except now Excalibur is the master of "kill everything in the room by having homer's bird click 4 over and over".

 

Anyway, I trust my own experience over yours.  I'm obviously better with Mirage than you are.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

Did it in T4 you say? in the shadows? 40 minutes? Just to prove the point I'll brb.

 

 

Edit:10 fkn minutes. 10 fkn minutes max is how long Mirage lasts trying to "Tank" in t4 survivals and defenses(barring outside influences of teammates so lets clarify that point further. The enemies were level 35-38. Bombards started coming and a few heavy gunners. 1 bombard had gotten near me and hit me point blank with a rocket which in and of itself was not such a  big deal however while I was knocked down due to the rocket he fired 2 more AND a heavy gunner sprayed me till dead.

1st test 8 min 37 seconds. 2nd test 10 min 23 seconds. Both times dead from a single occurrence of knockdown. Test 1 a rocket. Test 2 a ground slam by a bombard followed by a lancer and a nullifier.

 

Maximum 10 minutes and 23 seconds in T4 Surv. Constantly in the shadows due to one massive room I found with a long slope and multiple raised areas on the left and right. 5 minutes of trying to "tank" using both Hall of Mirrors and  Eclipse. Was moving quickly to cause enemies to lose LoS due to obstructions caused by elevation, randomly rising cover points, and massive pillars. Ensured that I focused Heavy gunners and Bombards to minimize risks involved. Was using my 6 forma catalyzed Amprex and my 4 Forma catalyzed Synoid Gamacore,(first test) 2nd test same room same frame setup(tankiest I could build) weapons 5 forma catalyzed Kohm(nominally I can run t4 survivals longer than 60 minutes without worry of ammo or not being able to kill a target) 4 Forma catalyzed Telos AKBolto(to help with health regen).

 

Lets further clarify the situation.

 

5 Forma Mirage corrosive projection Aura.

 

Build is as follows. 

All mods are maxed rank. Fleeting Expertise, Primed Flow, Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Primed continuity, Redirection, Vitality, and Vigor(second testing cycle I swapped in Reflex Guard taking out Vigor). Tankiest build I could find.

 

Also tried Reflex guard in place of Vigor on the second test. Results the same, only lasted longer due to periodically proc'ing Telos AkBoltos. I was in fact utilizing health restores and Team shield restores every time it was necessary. The problem is that her damage mitigation is not in fact very much on her fragile frame, so once I got knocked down each time it meant DEATH.

 

Ran each test setup 3 times to confirm if it was a fluke or a consistent occurrence. Each of my deaths were due to precisely the same types of circumstances. OP homing rockets or catching a ground slam coming around a corner.

 

So let me say sir IF you did make it that far "in the shadows" it was obviously hiding from the enemies while your friendlies handled them OR Nova/Loki was present to ensure you did not get utterly wiped in short order. So in other words YOU did not "tank" just fine till 40 minutes.

 

HoleyPaladin:

It's not OPINION, it's FACT as stated by DE in their videos.  Tank means more durable than ALL non-tank frames.  Especially "Glass cannon" types like Mirage.  95% is god-mode, pure and simple.  There's a difference between surviving and godmoding.  Rhino doesn't get to survive bombards to the face in endgame, so why should Mirage?

She doesn't do well at all.

 

Broken Rhino would be asking for 95% DR since that's what broken Mirage and broken Mesa have

Not broken at all.

 

Please cease your exaggerations of every single thing you bring up.

 

Oh consequently 50 minute t4 survival SOLO as Rhino just last night because quite frankly I am tired of you saying he is not top tier TANK. It appears sir that you have some faulty assumptions on Rhino and the rest of the cast in general. In case you were wondering I used an all around build with no corrupted mods at all.

In case you missed it. Pay attention. 

Edited January 24, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

Rhino is popular because new players THINK he is a tank.  Because they don't know any better, haven't had time to compare the numbers and look at what all the other frames have.

 

But Rhino is popular primarily among the new players because they believe him to be a tank frame.  And because he is overpowered at low levels due to scaling issues with iron skin, the same thing that makes him underpowered at high levels.

 

It's got nothing to do with the whole "jack of all trades" thing.  That's still Excalibur.  Except now Excalibur is the master of "kill everything in the room by having homer's bird click 4 over and over".

 

Anyway, I trust my own experience over yours.  I'm obviously better with Mirage than you are.

If you were better than me in any way you wouldn't be crying over your poor Rhino which is far better at being a tank than Mesa/Mirage/Trinity will ever be.

 

Hence why I clearly provided an example of my Rhino run vs my mirage runs. and if you insist on saying your better with Mirage than I am please feel free to look me up in game and we'll have a run and see who is picking who up. This should not be a pissing contest but if you want to make it that way let's go.

Edited January 24, 2015 by geninrising

[Holeypaladin]

If you were better than me in any way you wouldn't be crying over your poor Rhino which is far better at being a tank than Mesa/Mirage/Trinity will ever be.

Except he's not.  That's the entire point.  He's not better at tanking at all.

[geninrising]

Except he's not.  That's the entire point.  He's not better at tanking at all.

That is the point where no one thus far here can agree with you no matter how much you exaggerate. Experience proves you wrong man.

 

This is a very simple concept and it is truly disheartening to see that you cannot grasp it given what EVERYONE here has explained to you time and time again.

[Holeypaladin]

That is the point where no one thus far here can agree with you no matter how much you exaggerate. Experience proves you wrong man.

 

This is a very simple concept and it is truly disheartening to see that you cannot grasp it given what EVERYONE here has explained to you time and time again.

When I have to recast iron skin every 3 seconds in any T4 mission, I guarantee you that my experience is proving me right.  Since I only have to recast the other skills every 30 seconds or so.  500 energy to cast Iron skin 10 times, or 25/75/100 energy to cast eclipse/shatter shield/link/hysteria once?  Which is more?

 

That's a really easy question to answer.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

When I have to recast iron skin every 3 seconds in any T4 mission, I guarantee you that my experience is proving me right.  Since I only have to recast the other skills every 30 seconds or so.  500 energy to cast Iron skin 10 times, or 25 energy to cast eclipse once?  Which is more?

 

That's a really easy question to answer.

The fact that you equate the skills as the same thing is your problem in the first place. Rhino's skill =damage immunity for said duration. The others still take the damage. Hate to go there but "get gud skrub"

 

If you seriously have to recast that often then there is a deficiency in your skill as a Rhino player not in the skill itself. In fact just by the mere fact that you have to recast it that often shows me that the failure in Rhino actually derives itself directly from your lack of skill.

 

Please refrain from future attempts at revamping skills or we might never have changes made that actually benefit anyone at all. SMH

Edited January 24, 2015 by geninrising

[Holeypaladin]

There's no deficiency at all when the enemies destroy the iron skin during your casting animation.  That's just a weak shield.

[geninrising]

There's no deficiency at all when the enemies destroy the iron skin during your casting animation.  That's just a weak shield.

Really? they don't destroy mine during the cast. Oh wait I don't stand directly in front of bombards or heavy gunners in order to do so--->Skill.

Additionally I never attempt to stand still and allow targets to fire upon me with impunity. Again that is a SKILL developed through tirelessly attempting to actually elevate my ability to play the game better and for longer and longer runs. If you simply think any skill should allow you to just eat bullets you should have given up long ago because DE does not want you to have an easy mode button. Energy loophole not withstanding as they are currently trying to figure out how to alleviate that issue. As far as Valkyr is concerned you shouldn't be as she has no bearing on a discussion about Rhino, nor does any other frame for that matter.

BTW if you need pointers on how to play Rhino, just ask.

[Holeypaladin]

All frames have bearing on all discussions regarding all other frames.

 

Because the simple question is simple.  "Which frame am I gonna use in this mission?"

 

And the simple answer is simple.  "Whichever frame is best for this mission."

 

Rhino isn't best for any mission.  Therefore, he's never the one chosen.  It's all based on comparison between frames, whichever one is best is the one chosen.

 

And when I started playing Mirage seriously, and saw how much tankier she is than Rhino when used properly.. I realized that there's no point in ever playing Rhino again until he is fixed to be a better tank than this "glass cannon" who can survive bombards to the face.

 

There are a lot of easy mode buttons in the game.  They aren't going away any time soon.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

All frames have bearing on all discussions regarding all other frames.

 

Because the simple question is simple.  "Which frame am I gonna use in this mission?"

 

And the simple answer is simple.  "Whichever frame is best for this mission."

 

Rhino isn't best for any mission.  Therefore, he's never the one chosen.  It's all based on comparison between frames, whichever one is best is the one chosen.

 

And when I started playing Mirage seriously, and saw how much tankier she is than Rhino when used properly.. I realized that there's no point in ever playing Rhino again until he is fixed to be a better tank than this "glass cannon" who can survive bombards to the face.

 

There are a lot of easy mode buttons in the game.  They aren't going away any time soon.

Actually once again obviously you need this reiterated to you until it get's through... no frame is balanced according to the kit of another frame. Sorry, I know you don't like it, but it's not anywhere near your realm of choice.

 

Never has been, never will be. 

 

And to be quite clear, Rhino is used far more than any of the other 3 frames you mentioned in high tier content. Players use him all the time just not for Rep farm.

 

Additionally it's quite clear in any mission that they all are present in or multiples are present in. A skillful Rhino goes down far less than the rest. If we really need to go there I can invite you right now and test my Rhino vs your Mirage and see what is what.

[Beetamus]

Really? they don't destroy mine during the cast. Oh wait I don't stand directly in front of bombards or heavy gunners in order to do so--->Skill.

Additionally I never attempt to stand still and allow targets to fire upon me with impunity. Again that is a SKILL developed through tirelessly attempting to actually elevate my ability to play the game better and for longer and longer runs. If you simply think any skill should allow you to just eat bullets you should have given up long ago because DE does not want you to have an easy mode button. Energy loophole not withstanding as they are currently trying to figure out how to alleviate that issue. As far as Valkyr is concerned you shouldn't be as she has no bearing on a discussion about Rhino, nor does any other frame for that matter.

BTW if you need pointers on how to play Rhino, just ask.

To be fair, I have had mine destroyed during the cast cause I have been in a bad position (having to body block for a weaker ally or similar things), but it can happen. I've also been knocked down while Ironskin is active, and even died with Ironskin on lol. And they have been happening recently so go figure...

 

Not standing in front of bombards and heavy gunners isn't a skill, it's common sense, as is continually moving when getting shot at (although when they had the accuracy buff it didn't matter).

 

I sometimes wonder if Rhino gets used more often because people think, or get told by other players that he is the best option, even if he's not. For rushing solo most missions I use a Loki, as i'm invisible and can keep it up pretty much indefinitely. Not mentioning he makes a lot of missions jokes with Irridating disarm.

 

And just as a aside, I used to main Rhino from a LONG time ago till around U12-13, since then it's been Excalibur, even when people kicked me from a group for playing him cause they wanted a "better" frame. Eventually I got in and topped everything (I think they weren't great players, but this is the mindset we need to get rid of). With this in mind, perhaps DE should balance the frames and weapons with each other. Obviously some frames are better at some things, sure, but maybe some internal balance is good.

 

I still have a soft spot for my Rhino, be it the normal or the prime, and play them occasionally

Edited January 25, 2015 by Beetamus