Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[geninrising]

this is the point that none of you at all have answered though it was asked so many many times, why is it ok for non tank frames, i.e. a support frame or even a berserker stuck in melee to be ok to out tank a tank, or basically have god mode?

The point in allowing a healer to do it is that they have to be able to withstand the same onslaught a tank does because they have no other way of alleviating the matter other than to just SURVIVE.

 

With Valkyr that is a broken matter we all agree on and it is not correct in the least that her Hysteria exists in it's current iteration.

 

AS far as the Mirage and Mesa issue both of their abilities are conditional and in no way allow them to out tank Rhino. I have provided ample evidence to the contrary of both your statements that they out tank Rhino based purely on the fact that he has multiple means of damage mitigation whilst they have survival tools designed to aid in their ability to provide weapon based damage. IF either one had an AOE insta nuke ala Excal or Saryn then I could see there being no reason for their extra defensive ability, however neither example of supposed better tanks has near the level of damage mitigation Rhino has. Remember it is a culmination of all his abilities that make him a tank. For you to exclude any of those abilities in consideration of his tankiness compared to the others is simply inane.

[Ronyn]

this is the point that none of you at all have answered though it was asked so many many times, why is it ok for non tank frames, i.e. a support frame or even a berserker stuck in melee to be ok to out tank a tank, or basically have god mode?

THAT is a good question. 

 

The point in allowing a healer to do it is that they have to be able to withstand the same onslaught a tank does because they have no other way of alleviating the matter other than to just SURVIVE.

That, in theory, might make sense if a game requires it. However in the vast majority of rpg's, shooter/rpg hybrids, or other action based genres where such classes exist It was not necessary for the healer to equal the tank in raw mitigation.

Might I also add that in warframe specifically I see no reason why  healer inherently has to match a tank in mitigation to function.

 

In other words Trinity is how she is because that is how DE made her not because it was unavoidable for her role.

Trinity's design kind of forces excessive mitigation though, being a slow mover with minimal CC....it puts her in harms way.

 

With Valkyr that is a broken matter we all agree on and it is not correct in the least that her Hysteria exists in it's current iteration.

True.

 

AS far as the Mirage and Mesa issue both of their abilities are conditional and in no way allow them to out tank Rhino. I have provided ample evidence to the contrary of both your statements that they out tank Rhino based purely on the fact that he has multiple means of damage mitigation whilst they have survival tools designed to aid in their ability to provide weapon based damage. IF either one had an AOE insta nuke ala Excal or Saryn then I could see there being no reason for their extra defensive ability, however neither example of supposed better tanks has near the level of damage mitigation Rhino has. Remember it is a culmination of all his abilities that make him a tank. For you to exclude any of those abilities in consideration of his tankiness compared to the others is simply inane.

I haven't chimed in on this issue at all so I suppose I should.

 

Now I have limited experience with Mirage. Sure I have one, potatoed, leveled up, and have played her for at least 10 to 20 hours.

But I don't consider that much of an expert...so I'll offer where I stand on it so far just take it with a grain of salt....

Mirage can get herself to be pretty durable but lacks any viable tools to prevent others from getting hit.

So she may be tanky in the selfish context, but not a tank in role. A defensive tool of a sort makes sense.

That said, does her DR really need to go all the way to 95? Not really. That is sort of overkill.

 

Mesa on the hand quickly rose to one of my favorite frames. SO I have played her a lot and have some thoughts..

The design is that Satterhsheild is conditional. The question is how conditional that turns out to be in practice.

In a situation where 90 percent of the enemies are firing projectiles she is, for all intents and purposes, able to survive through  a whole ton incoming fire. The word conditional implies another condition in which it's not so great. Of course that would be against melee or aoe. The thing is...

I will often run through entire missions encountering very little melee or aoe threats. Warframes melee enemies aren't that fast so really its just the aoe threats. But they rarely pose much threat until way later into the game. Them being the only real threat to mesa also makes them easy to single out and focus down.  

And here is the other side to that.....Shooting gallery (either solo or in a tight group) with the spread mod can CC a very large group of enemies more than long enough to kill them and lasts for 30+ seconds.

In fact when I first leveled mesa shattersheild had a bug that made it not work and I was able to SOLO the whole solar chart with just shooting gallery to prevent enemies from firing at me. She can CC quite well.

 

From a pure gameplay standpoint-

In the situation where a bombard has just filled an area with fire then yes, rhino is clearly more resilient.

But in basically every other situation I actually find myself in that is not really the case.

If the question was-

"would you rather have an ability to greatly withstand 90 percent of what is thrown at you or an ability to moderately withstand everything?"

-I don't know that the latter is the better choice at all.

 

For the record I am not saying that shattersheild is bad or whatever...(though 95 percent may be a bit high)

Really I think the true flaw there is the lack of variety in how the enemies threaten us (topic for its own thread)

As the game right now though, I think its hard to argue that mesa isn't competing as a tank in practice regardless of what she should do in theory. 

 

TLDR:

Mesa, in theory, is not as effective at tanking as rhino. 

Mesa, in practice, will often meet or exceed his ability to withstand and or stop incoming damage.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

This is true. I think there needs to be some type of implemented skill factor to all abilities that allow them to scale well past the solar system through artful use. Currently things like Disarm, M Prime and many more abilities still perform their function precisely the same regardless of enmy levels while several ultimates, while utterly OP for the entire star chart, t1, t2, and t3(all outside of endless)at the t4 mark become near worthless except for their CC components where applicable.

 

True balance is I think going to be an endlessly tiring ordeal though because as more mods, frames, and even enemies are added things will surely continue a power creep and imbalance will pervade. Currently I do see a problem with DE that severely impacts this. It seems they are unable to continue to produce frames that are strong without breaking the balance point. Additionally it seems as though whenever they touch any frame except Excalibur they weaken the frame to the point that people are angry about it.

 

What I think DE needs to do is provide players a buff to any given frame they change that is commensurate with the amount of power they take away. 

 

It is rather confusing, isn't it?

It makes sense to me that they should balance all content for the stuff that people actually play.  There's a large focus on higher level content these days, because of those prime parts that only drop on rotation C of T4 missions.

If they're going to have the content that everyone strives for only drop every 20 mins in endless missions, they need to balance the game for 20 minute intervals of endless missions, since that's what people will play in order to acquire those parts.

Some skills are balaned for long endless missions (Radial disarm, m-prime, even rhino stomp), but iron skin is definitely not one of them.

 

That's a tricky thing though, it's sort of impossible to have every power scale equally.  Reason being is this;

Powers which directly have a raw effect on player EHP become grossly overpowered if they scale perfectly forever.  Since these powers make the player take ludicrously low levels of damage in "balanced" content running with mods to boost them, the player is highly unlikely to ever be killed unless they're outright AFK.

For powers which dish out straight damage, a different issue arises.  If these powers don't almost outright kill foes in a single use in "balanced" content after modding to their strengths they are generally seen as incredibly weak.  For the sake of simplicity let's say these powers were brought into a line of "deals roughly half of foe HP" when modded to near their maximum power.  This literally would mean you can always kill every foe, no matter how high of level, in two casts.

As much as it sucks, directly offensive and directly defensive abilities cannot be allowed infinite scaling right now without outright breaking the entirety of the game.  This is of course primarily because of the ease of access to powers.  CC based powers on the other hand don't break things to the same degree as you'll still be murdered by a glancing blow eventually by higher level foes.  Beyond that without the ability to kill increasingly leveled targets, CC eventually becomes nothing more than a stalling tool, delaying a player's inevitable failure.

In a perfect world, powers wouldn't be able to be readily spammed to high noon, and then directly offensive and defensive powers could be allowed to scale forever.  But the likelihood of that seems increasingly low as time passes.

Expecting a game to have every power scale exactly even is unrealistic.

On the other hand, the current gap between how well some abilities scale and others don't is just too big.

The whole idea of "endless modes where enemies grow progressively stronger for infinity" is a pandora's box of problems.

For one thing, it gives a big obvious place to show how well one thing with scale or not...making discrepancies all the more apparent. 

 

I cant stress it enough.

There needs to be a clearer "end" that the players will grasp without having to be told on a livestream.

I mean really....in most games do you need anyone to tell you what the end is?". Nope.

It's usually as plain as day. 

[Ronyn]

Quite frankly with the change to Rhino it felt like they utterly Robbed him, not because of the loss of broken IS but due to the fact that they changed two of his other abilities that were felt to be utterly core and arguably his best skills.

 

IDK at this point I would not mind seeing Charge removed to make way for the return of blast. With that implemented make IS his 1 as it is Rhino's signature move and the skill that would cement his idea of being a tank. Provide IS with 4 seconds absorption and 50%health/shield scaling. Then with the Charge pulled make his 2 Blast. half the damage boost from roar and make it an AOE aggro+DR that combines with his weapons to allow pinpoint aggro acquisition, that way players can spec for aoe aggro or weapon aggro as they choose capped at 20m aoe or weapon range if using pinpoint aggro. Lastly stomp appears to be in good health atm and I am unsure if to change or not.

 

The above changes would provide a fully functional tank build that scales well no matter what the content, thus guaranteeing Rhino's place no matter how power creep advances, additionally set that way the balance of enemies would basically set Rhino's effective IS level therefore it would not be outlandishly op nor would it ever be useless.

I'm very attached to charge. Thematically, I feel It's core to what makes the rhino appropriate. Course it needs love in the collision department.

Plus I find charge-like moves to be a classic tank initiation tool. I really wouldn't want it gone.

I miss blast but ever since the iron shrapnel augment came out I have felt like I have it again. 

 

I still plan to throw up a proposal on the whole aggro grabbing mechanics...once I have time to really write that out well.

[Bobtm]

Expecting a game to have every power scale exactly even is unrealistic.

On the other hand, the current gap between how well some abilities scale and others don't is just too big.

The whole idea of "endless modes where enemies grow progressively stronger for infinity" is a pandora's box of problems.

For one thing, it gives a big obvious place to show how well one thing with scale or not...making discrepancies all the more apparent. 

 

I cant stress it enough.

There needs to be a clearer "end" that the players will grasp without having to be told on a livestream.

I mean really....in most games do you need anyone to tell you what the end is?". Nope.

It's usually as plain as day. 

 

If I agreed with this anymore, I'd need to build a time machine, buy the Loki Prime Access, change my profile icon to Loki Prime Dark and then get my name changed to Ronyn2.

 

The day we get a clearly drawn "line in the sand" is the day I squeal like a fangirl.  Sometimes my brain hurts trying to think about balance when there's no real idea or form to it.

[sanj66]

The point in allowing a healer to do it is that they have to be able to withstand the same onslaught a tank does because they have no other way of alleviating the matter other than to just SURVIVE.

 

With Valkyr that is a broken matter we all agree on and it is not correct in the least that her Hysteria exists in it's current iteration.

 

AS far as the Mirage and Mesa issue both of their abilities are conditional and in no way allow them to out tank Rhino. I have provided ample evidence to the contrary of both your statements that they out tank Rhino based purely on the fact that he has multiple means of damage mitigation whilst they have survival tools designed to aid in their ability to provide weapon based damage. IF either one had an AOE insta nuke ala Excal or Saryn then I could see there being no reason for their extra defensive ability, however neither example of supposed better tanks has near the level of damage mitigation Rhino has. Remember it is a culmination of all his abilities that make him a tank. For you to exclude any of those abilities in consideration of his tankiness compared to the others is simply inane.

you arent getting the point of the question, none of these frames require a tanking ability and should not have it, a healer is not supposed to tank as much as a tank, thats honestly preposterous, as if that is so then it makes the role of a tank pointless as the healer can tank at the same level or better. a healer is supposed to stay in the background to support that tank and dps while the tank has aggro of the enemy and is basically soaking a beating or drawing attention. rhino's skills dont make him a tank, he is an all rounder due to those skills not a tank, and even worse as pointed out non tank frames out tanking him. mirage being the goat amongst the sheep, but mesa is still effective yet why is a damage based frame carrying around 95% damage mitigation for projectiles and as pointed out 2/3 the factions are primarily projectile based opponents, not to mention those that arent can be killed easily before they get in range to do melee damage. the other issue i observed is most of the "proofs" posted cant be considered valid as one thing is not being put out there, and that is player experience, i have played x frame for lets say 12 months and due to my experience with it i can go solo 1hr into a t4 survival that is really no measure of the frame as much as it is my experience, also and sadly so, even though the game is named warframe, the fact is weapons are more op and have more worth than the actual warframes themselves not to mention mobility etc so its not a fair representation of the actual frame or its skills.

[geninrising]

you arent getting the point of the question, none of these frames require a tanking ability and should not have it, a healer is not supposed to tank as much as a tank, thats honestly preposterous, as if that is so then it makes the role of a tank pointless as the healer can tank at the same level or better. a healer is supposed to stay in the background to support that tank and dps while the tank has aggro of the enemy and is basically soaking a beating or drawing attention. rhino's skills dont make him a tank, he is an all rounder due to those skills not a tank, and even worse as pointed out non tank frames out tanking him. mirage being the goat amongst the sheep, but mesa is still effective yet why is a damage based frame carrying around 95% damage mitigation for projectiles and as pointed out 2/3 the factions are primarily projectile based opponents, not to mention those that arent can be killed easily before they get in range to do melee damage. the other issue i observed is most of the "proofs" posted cant be considered valid as one thing is not being put out there, and that is player experience, i have played x frame for lets say 12 months and due to my experience with it i can go solo 1hr into a t4 survival that is really no measure of the frame as much as it is my experience, also and sadly so, even though the game is named warframe, the fact is weapons are more op and have more worth than the actual warframes themselves not to mention mobility etc so its not a fair representation of the actual frame or its skills.

I got the question. in fact I understood it completely. The reason I did not answer it directly is your misconceptions of what WF is and why they have the powers they have

 

The other frames have damage mitigation yes,but only because they require it to effectively continue to do what they are supposed to do due to the fact that they unlike other caster frames do not have the ability to vaporize a room.

 

All of their damage mitigation abilities are situational and support what said frames are there to do. Do I think they should be up to 95%? No I never said they should have that much. What I stated was justification for why RHINO is considered a tank(per the idea of what a tank is to WF, Damage mitigation is the core concept of what a tank does in WF.) and why those frames have their abilities to mitigate incoming damage.

 

The problem here arises from your idea that non tanks shouldn't have any damage mitigation. Guess what? This is not a traditional MMO and therefore it's rules cannot be applied to this circumstance. Rhino is not always there to body block for you, Frost is not always there to snow globe you while you work, Volt will not always be there to shield you, Trinity will not always be there to heal you, nor will Oberon.

 

Thus frames that cannot obliterate or perform damage mitigation through an ability like Nyx's Mind control/chaos/absorb, Loki's invis/decoy, Valkyr's Hysteria/Paralyze will end up needing a plain old DR skill of some kind.  

 

In fact WF has NO tank if we overlay WF with ideas of traditional MMOs. In fact the closest we come to it is Loki's Decoy. The reason I say this is we have no frame that specializes in enemy aggro control which allows other class types to apply their damages in relative safety. Nor would said Frame possibly even be able to given the massive number of enemies we encounter and the necessary restrictions such abilities would need in order to prevent exploitation.

 

There is no true Tank in WF but Rhino comes the closest. He is able to prevent his team from taking fatal damage through various means via charge, Stomp, body blocking with IS, Iron Shrapnel, and even allows a little damage mitigation by helping teammates remove threats faster with Roar.

 

Again the problem exists with your perception of a Tank not with the design implementations of DR abilities WITHIN THE WF UNIVERSE.

[sanj66]

I got the question. in fact I understood it completely. The reason I did not answer it directly is your misconceptions of what WF is and why they have the powers they have

 

The other frames have damage mitigation yes,but only because they require it to effectively continue to do what they are supposed to do due to the fact that they unlike other caster frames do not have the ability to vaporize a room.

 

All of their damage mitigation abilities are situational and support what said frames are there to do. Do I think they should be up to 95%? No I never said they should have that much. What I stated was justification for why RHINO is considered a tank(per the idea of what a tank is to WF, Damage mitigation is the core concept of what a tank does in WF.) and why those frames have their abilities to mitigate incoming damage.

 

The problem here arises from your idea that non tanks shouldn't have any damage mitigation. Guess what? This is not a traditional MMO and therefore it's rules cannot be applied to this circumstance. Rhino is not always there to body block for you, Frost is not always there to snow globe you while you work, Volt will not always be there to shield you, Trinity will not always be there to heal you, nor will Oberon.

 

Thus frames that cannot obliterate or perform damage mitigation through an ability like Nyx's Mind control/chaos/absorb, Loki's invis/decoy, Valkyr's Hysteria/Paralyze will end up needing a plain old DR skill of some kind.  

 

In fact WF has NO tank if we overlay WF with ideas of traditional MMOs. In fact the closest we come to it is Loki's Decoy. The reason I say this is we have no frame that specializes in enemy aggro control which allows other class types to apply their damages in relative safety. Nor would said Frame possibly even be able to given the massive number of enemies we encounter and the necessary restrictions such abilities would need in order to prevent exploitation.

 

There is no true Tank in WF but Rhino comes the closest. He is able to prevent his team from taking fatal damage through various means via charge, Stomp, body blocking with IS, Iron Shrapnel, and even allows a little damage mitigation by helping teammates remove threats faster with Roar.

 

Again the problem exists with your perception of a Tank not with the design implementations of DR abilities WITHIN THE WF UNIVERSE.

those 3 bolds highlight where you go wrong, go back a few posts, the question was not that they should or shouldnt have, i stated that in a reply as my opinion, but the question is why do non tank frames out tank the titled tank. you can argue that warframe has no tank but he is specifically  called a tank by the company that develops and publishes the game i.e. he is/supposed to be a tank. you also did not answer the relevant question posed to you, if the healer must be as tanky as the tank or in this case more, then what is the point of the tank? if you are going to say he has stomp etc, then you want him for cc, guess what there are better frames that cc that makes him then irrelevant, as you have a healer, the healer can also tank better than the tank, and if you want a frame for cc you have much better frames. roar is not a damage mitigation skill, its a buff, also iron shrapnel is an augment it is not his base or core skill. by saying roar is damage mitigation then you have to say invisibility is damage avoidance and mitigation stacked, even worse now considering augments ash's team invisibility augment. also rhino did have aggro on IS but it had to be removed due to how poorly it is and due to its static nature, so yes he did fill the role and we did have an actual tank but due to the amount of ridiculous nerfs, now down to ferrite armor it had to be done away with. also the idea is not to make other frames less tank, other than maybe valkyr and trinity somewhat, but make both tanks atleast viable or specialized tanks as other frames do have some rounded abilities, maybe one in their kit, but also specialize in some form, as it is rhino specializes at nothing, even frost to an extent without the bandaid he got to snow globe.

[SIDESTRE4M]

The group (if it exists) does neither organize in a traditional rpg style nor do I think, it's needed.

 

Warframe allows various strategies, and I'm more than thankful that we haven't gotten to the point yet, where we need such groups to complete content.

 

Since Trinity cannot bomb her feet to link-kill rooms anymore, she doesn't have any real possibility other than simply surviving or supporting the group.

 

No damage, nearly no CC. She is just there to save the day with bandages and that's her theme.

 

Rhino can break through enemies with his first ability, is immune to CC and procs, can buff the team in a very flexible way (roar does buff weapons and abilities alike) and to top it all, he has very reliable CC.

 

Rhino doesn't look naked without energy. Then he is still WAY tankier than nearly all other frames.

 

Edit: People always whine, there would be better frames for this and better frames for that...

 

Really, it's about the complete package, the theme. There are frames with better specializations. But none of them have all the features, Rhino has to offer.

 

You don't play Rhino because he has awesome CC, nor just because he has Iron Skin(however I'm sure lot of people do). You find specialized frames for everything he has to offer. Surprise, ain't it?

 

But none has the complete package or the same style. The game needs some flexible frames who aren't too specialized.

Edited January 27, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[geninrising]

those 3 bolds highlight where you go wrong, go back a few posts, the question was not that they should or shouldnt have, i stated that in a reply as my opinion, but the question is why do non tank frames out tank the titled tank. you can argue that warframe has no tank but he is specifically  called a tank by the company that develops and publishes the game i.e. he is/supposed to be a tank. you also did not answer the relevant question posed to you, if the healer must be as tanky as the tank or in this case more, then what is the point of the tank? if you are going to say he has stomp etc, then you want him for cc, guess what there are better frames that cc that makes him then irrelevant, as you have a healer, the healer can also tank better than the tank, and if you want a frame for cc you have much better frames. roar is not a damage mitigation skill, its a buff, also iron shrapnel is an augment it is not his base or core skill. by saying roar is damage mitigation then you have to say invisibility is damage avoidance and mitigation stacked, even worse now considering augments ash's team invisibility augment. also rhino did have aggro on IS but it had to be removed due to how poorly it is and due to its static nature, so yes he did fill the role and we did have an actual tank but due to the amount of ridiculous nerfs, now down to ferrite armor it had to be done away with. also the idea is not to make other frames less tank, other than maybe valkyr and trinity somewhat, but make both tanks atleast viable or specialized tanks as other frames do have some rounded abilities, maybe one in their kit, but also specialize in some form, as it is rhino specializes at nothing, even frost to an extent without the bandaid he got to snow globe.

My post goes wrong in no way whatsoever when taken as a whole to illustrate how things work in WF. If you don't like how things work in WF however then you see a problem. The issue exists in your perceptions not the design implementations nor in my perceptions. What I perceive is precisely what the game shows me. Feel free to attempt to argue but my ideas are not subjective but instead take into account all emphasized points to obtain clear rational for each statement. Whereas your points use a subjective idea of what a tank is and what dps is, drawn from other games that have no bearing on WF as WF has no clearly defined roles when measured against the context of other games. 

 

In WF all frames have some form of damage mitigation or avoidance. Rhino has the most.

[geninrising]

Holy crap. On another thread we have been discussing how Augments should never fix an ability but rather they should simply provide enhancements to further specialize your frame in a meaningful way.

 

Plus as an added bonus I figured out how to give IS players true facetanking ability without being immortal ^^

 

If you can't see the video on chrome clcik the shield icon at the top and choose to load unsafe scripts. For some reason chrome views embedded vids as unsafe.

 

This augment augment idea fits thematically with the initial video I saw of Rhino ignoring Lech Kril's hammer shockwave while the other tenno rushed him and would cement his role as THE tank in WF in more of a traditional sense while still guaranteeing that a player that unthinkingly rushes in and becomes surrounded will still die appropriately even with it active. Also it incorporates the aggro mechanic plus even a little more..

 

Iron Bulwark 

Rhino now gains TOTAL damage mitigation in a 180 degree arc in front of him for the lifetime of IS. The damage mitigation also extends to include any source of AOE damage and shields for 2m on either side of him to allow him to actually block for teammates in need. Additionally while active Rhino's attacks aggro opponents for 5 seconds This shield allows Rhino to fearlessly engage heavy threat targets however it requires he think carefully about how he approaches combat. It is necessary that Rhino be aware of his surroundings and react accordingly to ensure he can survive a situation where enemy damage can exceed his IS total.

You want face tanking you got it.

 

This is EXACTLY what Rhino needs to make him a go to frame for many occasions and allows precisely what many Rhino players have wanted ever since seeing the video I mentioned.

Edited January 27, 2015 by geninrising

[Ronyn]

The group (if it exists) does neither organize in a traditional rpg style nor do I think, it's needed.

 

Warframe allows various strategies, and I'm more than thankful that we haven't gotten to the point yet, where we need such groups to complete content.

 

Since Trinity cannot bomb her feet to link-kill rooms anymore, she doesn't have any real possibility other than simply surviving or supporting the group.

 

No damage, nearly no CC. She is just there to save the day with bandages and that's her theme.

 

Rhino can break through enemies with his first ability, is immune to CC and procs, can buff the team in a very flexible way (roar does buff weapons and abilities alike) and to top it all, he has very reliable CC.

 

Rhino doesn't look naked without energy. Then he is still WAY tankier than nearly all other frames.

 

Edit: People always whine, there would be better frames for this and better frames for that...

 

Really, it's about the complete package, the theme. There are frames with better specializations. But none of them have all the features, Rhino has to offer.

 

You don't play Rhino because he has awesome CC, nor just because he has Iron Skin(however I'm sure lot of people do). You find specialized frames for everything he has to offer. Surprise, ain't it?

 

But none has the complete package or the same style. The game needs some flexible frames who aren't too specialized.

The worst thing about these conversations is how they tend to devolve into a sort of binary viewpoint. 

Wanting clearer roles and frames with clear strength and weaknesses is not the same thing as wanting traditional rpg style or wanting frames that lack diversity. Just like saying that if rhino is one of the few dedicated Tank frames that he should be better at that aspect than all others not dedicated to that action....isn't the same thing as saying that all other frames should be super squishy and rhino should only ever be blocking damage. Frames can be both flexible and specialized at the same time.

 

So many times the argument becomes "Rhino is still worth taking because of his total kit" which is true. And yet, does that mean he isn't worth some tweaks? I think he could use some tweaks. To be specific-There really is no reason that rhino cannot be at least equal (generally better) in direct mitigation than any other frames not designated for the tank role yet still hold his valuable CC, initiation and team buffing capability.

 

Realistically, if rhino was a bit tougher would people stop bringing trinity for her ability to heal, replenish energy and mitigate?

Would people stop bringing Nyx for her ability to control and confuse entire maps?

Would people stop bringing Nova for her ability to every enemy in a room into a slow moving explosive?

Etc..etc...

No they wouldn't. Because those frames are valuable on there own in a way that is not threatened by rhino's ability to tank.

The frames that get left out now, get left out because they underperform now.

 

It is about the complete package and theme..but it's also about the playstyle and the use on the team.

 

 

In WF all frames have some form of damage mitigation or avoidance. Rhino has the most.

That is debatable.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

That is debatable.

 

You are correct to a point but Limbo, Loki, Mag, Valkyr and Nyx would be seen as tied with Rhino and I was focusing on frames previous posters had touted as tanks.

 

To further clarify the damage mitigation or avoidance counts are as follows.

 

Ashe=Smokebomb 1

Banshee= Soundquake(mentioned as it is primarily a damage avoidance tool rather than an aoe NUKE) 1

Ember= Accelerant, Fire Blast 2

Excalibur= Radial Blind, Super Jump 2

Frost= Snowglobe 1

Hydroid= Undertow 1

Limbo= Rift Walk, Banish, Cataclysm

Loki= Invisibility, Decoy, Radial Disarm 3

Mag= Bullet Attractor, Shield Polarize, Pull 3

Mesa= Shatter Shield, Shooting Gallery(partial damage mitigation based on situational rng) 2

Mirage= Eclipse, Hall of Mirrors 2

Nekros= Terrify 1

Nova= M Prime

Nyx= Chaos,Mind Control(although this could be seen as a dps tool it fills the damage mitigation and avoidance criteria) absorb 3

Oberon= Hallowed ground, Smite 2

Rhino= Charge, IS, Stomp 3

Saryn= Molt 1

Trinity= Link, Blessing 2

Valkyr= Paralysis, Warcry, and Hysteria 3

Vauban= Bastielle, Vortex 2

Volt= Electric Shield 1

Zephyr= Turbulence, Tornado 2

 

As we can clearly see Rhino has more damage mitigation and avoidance mechanisms than Trinity, Mirage, or Mesa.

Additionally even more skills can be added to this list showing abilities that can add to overall survivability if we include movement based abilities only such as Tail Wind(which allows damage avoidance via getting to places that are hard to be attacked.

 

The entire point being that every frame in the game has these mechanics of damage reduction and avoidance). Rhino is focused on it. This is further reinforced by his augments.

Edited January 27, 2015 by geninrising

[SIDESTRE4M]

@Ronyn: We are spiraling again and ultimately it is personal opinion. I'm just here to debate over Rhinos powerlevel which is the basis of why he shoukd be changed/buffed.

 

What different people perceive and what they wish for warframe or its components to be, is very diverse.

 

I still think Rhino is one of the most carefree playable frames out there because of all the stuff he can do.

 

Personally I don't think Warframe needs any sort of roles. Sure, every frame fits into some sort of a playstyle, but that's not necessary a whole role he has to play.

 

Every frame has the same equipment, can use the same weapons and thus all have the same base DPS capability. The abilities are added.

 

I see every frame as component of an available tactic. We could start a philophical discussion for years what Rhino is, what he should be, what he can be and in the end DE will compare the points of people with their own beliefs abd they either agree or not.

 

I see the current meta, I don't see any reason to buff Rhino in any possible way, just because some people suddenly think a "change rhino to suit my taste"-thread is needed because some frames with another toolbox have have another balancing of each skill they have.

 

You guys want rhino bro as a traditional tank with aggro stuff going on. You proposed it already. I don't have to agree to it. If DE decides to do it because they think your ideas are cool, then gratulations.

Edited January 27, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Ronyn]

@Ronyn: We are spiraling again and ultimately it is personal opinion. I'm just here to debate over Rhinos powerlevel which is the basis of why he shoukd be changed/buffed. <-its more than that.

 

What different people perceive and what they wish for warframe or its components to be, is very diverse.<-yep.

 

I still think Rhino is one of the most carefree playable frames out there because of all the stuff he can do.<-agreed.

 

Personally I don't think Warframe needs any sort of roles. Sure, every frame fits into some sort of a playstyle, but that's not necessary a whole role he has to play.<-roles already exist. It's just a question of how soft or hard they are. And how unique they are to this game.

 

Every frame has the same equipment, can use the same weapons and thus all have the same base DPS capability. The abilities are added.

<-with all this energy flowing, powers can often be the primary deciding factor in damage output.

 

I see every frame as component of an available tactic. We could start a philophical discussion for years what Rhino is, what he should be, what he can be and in the end DE will compare the points of people with their own beliefs abd they either agree or not.<- Indeed.

Indeed. These differences are to be expected. Mainly I am speaking against things being looked at in too much of a binary way.

And not everything falls into personal opinion.

 

For example: Power level is not the only reason a frame gets altered. It never has been that simple and it never will be.

Ember is a great example of that. DE changed her because she wasn't fitting their idea for her.

If it was only about power level they could have simply lowered the effectiveness of overheat...

but it was about her specific function, so they took that power out completely and went in a different direction.

 

We all have different opinions on whether or not ember should have been changed as she was.

But no matter how we slice it, power level wasn't the only concern for her changes.

 

I see the current meta, I don't see any reason to buff Rhino in any possible way, just because some people suddenly think a "change rhino to suit my taste"-thread is needed because some frames with another toolbox have have another balancing of each skill they have.

 

You guys want rhino bro as a traditional tank with aggro stuff going on. You proposed it already. I don't have to agree to it. If DE decides to do it because they think your ideas are cool, then gratulations.

This part right here is somewhat dismissive. Not in that you have a different opinion...you have every right to disagree. That's cool.

It's more in the way you represent the other side. That is to say-

This isn't a case of people "suddenly wanting rhino to be built to suit my tastes."

Rhino HAD a tougher iron skin WITH an aggro grabbing mechanic. DE made it that way. Since then the game changed, nerfs, buffs, reworks, new frames, new damage scaling, new damage model, excessive amounts of energy for everyone.....etc.....

(I mean rhinos loss of aggro grabbing isn't even documented in patch notes. How are we supposed to take that?)

DE themselves has acknowledged that some of the changes they make have work as intended and some have unintended consequences.

That is the nature of development.

In this case some of us feel that in all that Rhino's kit has fallen away from DE's intention for his identity. 

Again, you can disagree with that and it's cool...

but there is nothing sudden about these concerns nor are they based purely in personal taste.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

You are correct to a point but Limbo, Loki, Mag, Valkyr and Nyx would be seen as tied with Rhino and I was focusing on frames previous posters had touted as tanks.

 

To further clarify the damage mitigation or avoidance counts are as follows.

 

Ashe=Smokebomb 1

Banshee= Soundquake(mentioned as it is primarily a damage avoidance tool rather than an aoe NUKE) 1

Ember= Accelerant, Fire Blast 2

Excalibur= Radial Blind, Super Jump 2

Frost= Snowglobe 1

Hydroid= Undertow 1

Limbo= Rift Walk, Banish, Cataclysm

Loki= Invisibility, Decoy, Radial Disarm 3

Mag= Bullet Attractor, Shield Polarize, Pull 3

Mesa= Shatter Shield, Shooting Gallery(partial damage mitigation based on situational rng) 2

Mirage= Eclipse, Hall of Mirrors 2

Nekros= Terrify 1

Nova= M Prime

Nyx= Chaos,Mind Control(although this could be seen as a dps tool it fills the damage mitigation and avoidance criteria) absorb 3

Oberon= Hallowed ground, Smite 2

Rhino= Charge, IS, Stomp 3

Saryn= Molt 1

Trinity= Link, Blessing 2

Valkyr= Paralysis, Warcry, and Hysteria 3

Vauban= Bastielle, Vortex 2

Volt= Electric Shield 1

Zephyr= Turbulence, Tornado 2

 

As we can clearly see Rhino has more damage mitigation and avoidance mechanisms than Trinity, Mirage, or Mesa.

Additionally even more skills can be added to this list showing abilities that can add to overall survivability if we include movement based abilities only such as Tail Wind(which allows damage avoidance via getting to places that are hard to be attacked.

 

The entire point being that every frame in the game has these mechanics of damage reduction and avoidance). Rhino is focused on it. This is further reinforced by his augments.

The thing is I am not quite convinced that how things play out in the practical/gameplay side of things showcases that.

For example-

Trinity, with the right build, can keep blessing going so often that the whole team has a solid amount of DR.

While keeping herself sturdy as heck with link.

Mesa, with the right build, can keep most enemies of any type in range from even attacking anyone with Shooting gallery, then stop the long range enemies from doing much damage to her with shattersheild.

Frost, in certain modes, will block damage for the whole team whole being able to slow and freeze enemies at multiple ranges.

(If we re going to count rhino's CC as mitigation we have to do the same with frost)

 

Certainly rhino is focused on mitigation by design. But is he really better than everyone at that right? I don't know about that....

[SIDESTRE4M]

Indeed. These differences are to be expected. Mainly I am speaking against things being looked at in too much of a binary way.

And not everything falls into personal opinion.

 

For example: Power level is not the only reason a frame gets altered. It never has been that simple and it never will be.

Ember is a great example of that. DE changed her because she wasn't fitting their idea for her.

If it was only about power level they could have simply lowered the effectiveness of overheat...

but it was about her specific function, so they took that power out completely and went in a different direction.

 

We all have different opinions on whether or not ember should have been changed as she was.

But no matter how we slice it, power level wasn't the only concern for her changes.

 

This part right here is somewhat dismissive. Not in that you have a different opinion...you have every right to disagree. That's cool.

It's more in the way you represent the other side. That is to say-

This isn't a case of people "suddenly wanting rhino to be built to suit my tastes."

Rhino HAD a tougher iron skin WITH an aggro grabbing mechanic. DE made it that way. Since then the game changed, nerfs, buffs, reworks, new frames, new damage scaling, new damage model, excessive amounts of energy for everyone.....etc.....

(I mean rhinos loss of aggro grabbing isn't even documented in patch notes. How are we supposed to take that?)

DE themselves has acknowledged that some of the changes they make have work as intended and some have unintended consequences.

That is the nature of development.

In this case some of us feel that in all that Rhino's kit has fallen away from DE's intention for his identity. 

Again, you can disagree with that and it's cool...

but there is nothing sudden about these concerns nor are they based purely in personal taste.

 

I would have said, nothing to add, but we can only speculate about DE's intentions. I agree though, there is still lots of legacy balancing going on (elemental mods for example) and I have to admit, I don't know exactly, when IS got "nerfed" and why.

 

And that's the point. The question is: Do we NEED to revert those changes to Iron Skin or not? I believe T4 wasn't there, but honestly, if I can just eat bullets with Rhino at higher T4  missions with ease, it would be very lame. And I consider a few seconds "at ease".

 

Whatever DE's intentions are...

 

I even said a few times already. I wouldn't be the one to grant those poor Rhinos a bit more room to breathe, but on the other hand... maybe not. After seeing how it was to do simple T4 missions... it's really fine as it is. Maybe other frames need to be toned down. That may be true. Maybe the inflational use of energy is a real problem.

 

The recent tactical alert did show me one thing: Nullifier shift the advantage to Rhino. Sure, they cancel his Iron Skin, but without skills available, Rhino looks a lot better than the others. Meaning, he takes less risk. That may be only due to the existence of nullifiers. Could be. Is still debatable.

 

I really don't see an issue with Rhino. That's my point. That may be me only. I'm not a Rhino player (though I'm doing the experiment of feeding him formas at the moment) and I found it relatively easy to solve missions. Same is true for Mesa/Mirage, nonestly... it depends on your viewpoint what makes a frame a good frame.

[LazyKnight]

I even said a few times already. I wouldn't be the one to grant those poor Rhinos a bit more room to breathe, but on the other hand... maybe not. After seeing how it was to do simple T4 missions... it's really fine as it is. Maybe other frames need to be toned down. That may be true. Maybe the inflational use of energy is a real problem.

I do not think that iron skin is conceptually wrong, it just should not be 'health based'.

 

If Iron-Skin was a total hit system, like the nullifier's bubble, it would get rid a chuck of its scaling issues. Health system do not scale, as they are overpowering in the beginning and then turn useless as things get harder.  At least with a per hit system it will scale, and It can still be overwhelmed by numbers. Failing to be able to kill the NPC quick enough will result in the it failing, regardless of the NPC's level. 

 

 

The recent tactical alert did show me one thing: Nullifier shift the advantage to Rhino. Sure, they cancel his Iron Skin, but without skills available, Rhino looks a lot better than the others. Meaning, he takes less risk. That may be only due to the existence of nullifiers. Could be. Is still debatable.

Any frame that is set to effective health tank can deal with them, it just takes using life-strike on your melee weapon. The problem is that they completely remove the option to get close to them with any form of damage-mitigation powers, rendering most builds worthless. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by LazyKnight

[SIDESTRE4M]

Just slap in Life strike? Yeah. And Rage. And if that nullifier isn't alone, things are shifting again.

[LazyKnight]

Just slap in Life strike? Yeah. And Rage. And if that nullifier isn't alone, things are shifting again.

I could write a topic up critiquing nullifier, they are certainty annoying. You're right about shifting, and it turns into a form of suicide to melee them at higher levels than that alert. But, at that point even Rhino gets toasted, his effective health is not that great, comparatively. There are at least few other frames that tie or exceed his. Pointless to build for it, because of how fast the NPC's damage scales, it would only make your character last a moment longer.

 

I would say nulls need to have a minimum fixing range, that prevents them from shooting players that are in melee range. If DE wants players to get inside their bubble it should be a game over for the null if a player succeed in doing so. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by LazyKnight

[SIDESTRE4M]

He is tied with Frost, beaten by Valkyr. A moment is longer than no moment. But why is that a point now?

 

I shouldn't have brought up nullifiers. I don't want to be entangled in another discussion because of this.

 

Effectively Rhino lasts longer. When enemies become so high that he wouldn't, he shoudln't run into them. And if he can't, no other frame can either.

[Ronyn]

I would have said, nothing to add, but we can only speculate about DE's intentions. I agree though, there is still lots of legacy balancing going on (elemental mods for example) and I have to admit, I don't know exactly, when IS got "nerfed" and why.

 

And that's the point. The question is: Do we NEED to revert those changes to Iron Skin or not? I believe T4 wasn't there, but honestly, if I can just eat bullets with Rhino at higher T4  missions with ease, it would be very lame. And I consider a few seconds "at ease".

 

Whatever DE's intentions are...

 

I even said a few times already. I wouldn't be the one to grant those poor Rhinos a bit more room to breathe, but on the other hand... maybe not. After seeing how it was to do simple T4 missions... it's really fine as it is. Maybe other frames need to be toned down. That may be true. Maybe the inflational use of energy is a real problem.

 

The recent tactical alert did show me one thing: Nullifier shift the advantage to Rhino. Sure, they cancel his Iron Skin, but without skills available, Rhino looks a lot better than the others. Meaning, he takes less risk. That may be only due to the existence of nullifiers. Could be. Is still debatable.

 

I really don't see an issue with Rhino. That's my point. That may be me only. I'm not a Rhino player (though I'm doing the experiment of feeding him formas at the moment) and I found it relatively easy to solve missions. Same is true for Mesa/Mirage, nonestly... it depends on your viewpoint what makes a frame a good frame.

Its true that what we know of de's intention is limited.

Which is why I can only offer thoughts based on the info I have.

I'm. By no means standing on a soap box claiming I've got it figured out....

I'm more saying that from what I see, what they have said, and what it creates...

My take on things is that rhino is one of the frames that have fallen a bit out of intent.

[LazyKnight]

 

He is tied with Frost, beaten by Valkyr. A moment is longer than no moment. But why is that a point now?

Oberon and Saryn also beat Rhino. link on the wiki:http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

 

I have played far too much on Rhino, more than I would care to admit; It is misnomer to consider him durable enough to tank without IS.The only way to health tank is to have a means to heal the health damage taken. Rhino is not a tank, but has a broken overpowered iron skin that trivializes NPCs up to level 30 then fails rapidly after that. 

 

I do not see what DE intent is with the current Iron skin. If they want Rhino to be using it all the time, then why have a passive system? There are ways to have iron skin removed and have all of Rhino powers work at fueling his rage and rejuvenating him. From every video i have seen for his game-play, he was meant to be played like Psycho from Borderlands 2. 

[SIDESTRE4M]

Oi, has it always been like this? You got me there.

[Soul.Fire]

So, I posted a topic debating how Rhino with his iron skin ability is inferior as a tank to four other warframes (Mesa, Mirage, Trinity, and Valkyr, in alphabetical order even).  This is due to the fact that iron skin provides artificial hit points in a "shield" that is easily destroyed in one or two hits by high level enemies, both on the later planets and in the void.  This means that the base iron skin power for the Rhino warframe does not allow him to tank very well at all compared to these four warframes (not including Loki, who has higher survivability due to being invisible and not targeted directly by enemy attacks.)

 

Essentially the topic contained a heated debate with some people saying that Rhino should be just as tanky as any other warframe, and others saying that he is obtained too easily and they fear people would overuse him if he became too tanky.

 

So I came up with a compromise to the solution in the form of Rhino Prime.  Rhino Prime's version of iron skin already looks different from Rhino's... being gold in color rather than silver.  Additionally, Rhino Prime is the warframe described specifically in the codex as being able to block bullets to his face without flinching, so he is described as the ultimate tank in his own codex entry.  Also, Rhino prime is very difficult to obtain, requiring intense grinding in the void just to get the blueprints.

 

So my proposal is to have Rhino keep his current version of iron skin.  It does very well in the first half of the star chart, but by the second half people will need to learn new strategies or use different frames.

 

For Rhino Prime, however, his gold-colored iron skin, which I shall refer to as Primed Iron Skin, should provide him just as much damage resistance as other tank frames, bringing him back up to the level of the four aforementioned tank frames.

 

The proposed primed iron skin would have the following affects:

 

Damage reduction of 75%, scaling to power strength, but capping at 95%.  This is the same level of damage reduction offered to the Mirage warframe in the shade and not superior in any way, it would simply be raising Rhino Prime to Mirage's level in this one category only (Mirage still has much higher weapon damage).

Duration of 15 seconds.  This is inferior to the 20 seocnds of Mirage's eclipse power, but hopefully the reduction will help to alleviate some of the complaints.

Immunity to knockdowns and procs while active, just like regular iron skin.

Movement speed reduction of 10%, possibly scaling to power strength as well.  This essentially makes Rhino Prime as slow as Rhino when Primed Iron Skin is activated.

Energy cost of 50.  This is DOUBLE that of Eclipse, but it's an extra cost I'm willing to pay when I use Rhino Prime to tank, and for the immunity to knockdowns.

Only useable by Rhino Prime.  Rhino retains the original iron skin ability.

 

Now to address the inevitable "power creep" or "Rhino is fine where he is" comments to come... I have heard DE mention before that their goal is not to nerf warframes, but rather to raise every warframe to the same power level.  That is what this primed iron skin ability is trying to do.. raise Rhino Prime to the power level of mirage, trinity, Mesa, and Valkyr.  I have not and probably will never cry out for nerfs, nor object when I see suggestions to raise some warframe's power level to match that of a similar warframe's role.

Wish I could up-vote this post a few dozen times. It is really criminal how fast Rhino Prime's Iron Skin goes away, even with a lowly level 60 bombard hitting you. And this would be the perfect counter to that issue. Well said.