Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Ronyn]

I think my biggest hang-up on the situation is how Warframe's style as a game sort of denies the general way in which "tanking" works due to the core of the game's mechanics.  Unlike standard RPG-esque games where one's damage output is largely dependant on the chosen "class" with weapons being notably more normalized, our damage here is primarily weapon based.  This style of play causes a massive issue (in my viewpoint) because tanking, as obvious as this is going to sound, ties directly to inherent survivability.

Ideally, when we speak of tanks we would be looking from the perspective of multiple genres.

tab targeting RPG's apply tank logic one way, MOBA's apply tank logic another way, Shooter/rpg hybrids apply tank logic another way....

While Tanks always hinge on high survivability the rest of their design will be highly varied based on that genre.

That variance will show that tanks have to give up something but its not always damage output. 

The hard part is always tuning all that properly.

 

As you point out-

In Warframe, a frames unique powers and stats interact are then paired with whatever weapon one chooses.

Indeed this makes it harder to classify what classes are "damage dealers" and which classes aren't. 

That said, there are a lot of ways in which classes of warframe modify or even dictate the damage output of even weaponry.

For example: Ember's ability to magnify fire damage with accelrant then pair it with weapons with fire elements on them.

For example: Nova's ability to turn enemies into bombs that explode upon being hit with Molecular prime.

For example: Volt's ability to increase the speed in which he swings his melee weapon with speed.

For example: Mirage's ability to amplify the damage of ever weapon attack she makes with hall of mirrors.

Etc...

 

Essentially, weapon use is part of each frames design.

Like how Rhino's roar increases the damage output of everything else he does. 

Which brings me too-

 

Basically, making a "tank" here ends up creating a character that effectively cannot die while also still killing everything without reduced effectiveness.  The obvious route here (to me) is to include a passive self-nerf to one's own damage to a notably large degree, I'm talking like -65% damage or more, upon their attempt at tanking.  However I've generally not even bothered suggesting this almost at all since I'm nearly certain that everyone would outright hate that idea.

Well let's look at that in two parts.

 

1)The idea of gaining survivability while loosing damage output.

----

Let's look at the proposal for a change in what stats Iron skin scales on.

The equation for Iron Skin takes shield and health into account for the hit point total number then applies armor to it to achieve the total effective hit points (EHP). So the new and improved numbers I proposed for iron skin were based on slotting vitality, redirection, vigor and steel fiber. Take a single one of those mods out and the EHP of iron skin shrinks. Take two out and you're about cutting the EHP in half. 

 

Also note:I recommended taking away Stomps get-out-of-jail-free-card to ignore time reduction mods.

 

So if someones goal were to achieve the best EHP for Iron skin they would only have four slots remaining to work with.

Those who want full offensive power out of charge and stomp and full buff power from roar would still want to slot all three power strength mods.

Intensity, transient fortitude, and blind rage, give 184% increase to power which will grant Rhino high defense and high offense but a very high power cost with only one mod slot left to work with...and the 40% duration loss from transient fortitude has already taken 5 seconds off of roar, 3 seconds of the stun from stomp, and lowered the distance that charge travels.

Now with that one remaining mod slot players can choose to improve energy efficiency, improve duration, or improve movement speed....

but they can only get one of those things. Meaning the rhino who attains both full offensive power along with full defensive power HAS to give up something important.

 

Alternatively, a rhino who wants to make his maxed out iron skin cheap to recast will have to forgo some of those power strength mods and directly loose some of his damage output. Like if they went with Vitality, Steelfiber, vigor, redirection,Transient fortitude, Flow, Fleeting expertise and streamline the actual damage output of stomp, charge and roar would only be improved by TF (+55%) which is far less then those folks using TF,BR, and Intensity combined (+184%). Also with both TF and FE slotted Stomp would only leave enemies CC'd for around 2.5 seconds. That is a direct loss in damage output in powers AND weapons...as well as CC capability.

 

End result-

All powers would be usable and viable in many builds but there is a clear trade off between things.

 

2) The idea that the tank in waframe would have to be un-killable.

-----

Again, let's look at the proposal that iron skin would gain EHP based on each enemy that is aggro'd.

Each enemy that Rhino attacks with weapons or powers while Iron skin is active would aggro-ed to attack rhino for ten seconds.

EHP gain per enemy would be X percentage. 

This means we have a base EHP of iron skin and a high cap of EHP for Iron skin. 

Tune this right, and rhino is only super resilient when he is directly under heavy fire...

Which is when he needs to be...and when he is quite capable of being killed by all of that incoming fire if not careful.

 

Put both one and two together and we have something that can be quite powerful but requires trade offs and skilled use to be so.

 

In contrast, current iron skin scales off of power strength and has no variance based on aggor/incomming fire.

This means that getting both the best iron skin inherently means you get the best damage output.<-no trade off.

and that rhino has the same survivability whether he is playing selfishly or for others.

What I propose is not simply a buff to IS, it is a very different paradigm. 

 

 

figuring out where the endgame balance lies, sorting out how much survivability is too much/not enough, etc. 

If the mechanics are smart we have done the majority of what is doing in concept stage, beyond that the numerical values will simply need to be set to the level 40 balance or the level 60 balance.

 

If we were gonna pick a "concept head" on this opperation....

LOl...yeah there is no way we could really pick one nor would it actually function with the variety of people coming in and out of the thread.

Honestly I was just pointing out where the differences and the similarities are between doing this here and doing it at work.

My goal was to set the proper expectation fr board discussions. A real consensus and agreement would be asking for too much.

Nut just hoping to share thoughts and kick ideas around...that is reasonable and that is enough.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

I think my biggest hang-up on the situation is how Warframe's style as a game sort of denies the general way in which "tanking" works due to the core of the game's mechanics.  Unlike standard RPG-esque games where one's damage output is largely dependant on the chosen "class" with weapons being notably more normalized, our damage here is primarily weapon based.  This style of play causes a massive issue (in my viewpoint) because tanking, as obvious as this is going to sound, ties directly to inherent survivability.

 

Basically, making a "tank" here ends up creating a character that effectively cannot die while also still killing everything without reduced effectiveness.  The obvious route here (to me) is to include a passive self-nerf to one's own damage to a notably large degree, I'm talking like -65% damage or more, upon their attempt at tanking.  However I've generally not even bothered suggesting this almost at all since I'm nearly certain that everyone would outright hate that idea.

 

I feel like this is a trade off I can get behind. If someone wants to be a traditional tank let them be, including the traditional drawback of lacking the ability to maintain their outrageous damage.

 

Additionally on another note if we are looking into the whole IS snowglobe-like functionality, I would suggest they maintain the aggro until the IS is completely depleted. Also I would suggest the IS SG behavior as a new augment rather than the other way around. Quite frankly I would only want the aggro thing If I could control it regardless of the strength inherent in IS. I do not want any and all enemies looking at me EVER.

 

If we make it as an augment we could bridge the two moba and mmorpg styles into one tank.

 

Currently Rhino fits a more MOBA-esque feel due to his high cc and survivability buff. With this proposed as an augment he would become a more traditional Tank. I feel honestly we would be remiss in removing the ability for players to utilize Rhino in his current form. So can we agree to make this an augment spitball rather than a straight up change to IS?

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[Ronyn]

I feel like this is a trade off I can get behind. If someone wants to be a traditional tank let them be, including the traditional drawback of lacking the ability to maintain their outrageous damage.

read the above https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382685-bring-back-iron-skin-face-tanking/page-47#entry4330914

[Ronyn]

If we make it as an augment we could bridge the two moba and mmorpg styles into one tank.

 

Currently Rhino fits a more MOBA-esque feel due to his high cc and survivability buff. With this proposed as an augment he would become a more traditional Tank. 

Moba characters often have both aggro manipulation and CC,Zoning, peeling capabilities. (or one or the other)

That is because in a single map there are both human and AI enemies to deal with.

 

 I feel honestly we would be remiss in removing the ability for players to utilize Rhino in his current form. So can we agree to make this an augment spitball rather than a straight up change to IS?

Nothing is really being lost though. That is to say, the more well rounded, jack of all trades style rhino would still be completely build-able.

An iron skin with about 2500K HP alongside a high powered stomp and roar for low-ish energy just requires the right mod set.

 

EDIT: Not to say I am against applying augments in general. But in this case I feel the core design of the frame needs some work. I wouldn't want to use augments as fix to something that should really be fixed in itself.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[as3mbus]

Make rhino slower remove stomp, And u get those tanky rhino again. Lol.

Rhino hav roar ironskin to tank. And when u r cornered u can just stomp at low cost of energy, making it energy efficient tank frame without considering duration & strength at the same time, and he can shoot too. He has a speciality that mirage,mesa & trin dont hav.

He can cast all of his ability with high eff & high effect.

Trin need to consider using ev everytime, mesa will need to sacrafice his peace maker to be tank, and mirage cant last a second when her skill wore off(since it visual effect dont show much differ from his skill.

Rhino iro sharpnel can also serve the cc for rhino.

Just why u need to nerf this perfect frame with abnormal speed ?

[geninrising]

Moba characters often have both aggro manipulation and CC,Zoning, peeling capabilities. (or one or the other)

That is because in a single map there are both human and AI enemies to deal with.

 

Nothing is really being lost though. That is to say, the more well rounded, jack of all trades style rhino would still be completely build-able.

An iron skin with about 2500K HP alongside a high powered stomp and roar for low-ish energy just requires the right mod set.

 

EDIT: Not to say I am against applying augments in general. But in this case I feel the core design of the frame needs some work. I wouldn't want to use augments as fix to something that should really be fixed in itself.

My problem with this is that some people would not be happy with the aggro mechanics in general being AOE. I personally play Rhino as a large threat killer preferring to leave trash mobs for people with faster ROF weaponry. If the proposed changes were made I would be a sever disadvantage moving into situations like that because I would lack a means to lose said aggro without traversing a great distance to leave the field of aggro. In addition I honestly still feel that the AOE aggro would be exploitable. Now if the aggro mechanic were reigned in to attacks made by Rhino then I could be happy with this as it would allow me to maintain what aggro I wanted and if I picked up proximity aggro it would just mean extra EHP for the IS .

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

Make rhino slower remove stomp, And u get those tanky rhino again. Lol.

Rhino hav roar ironskin to tank. And when u r cornered u can just stomp at low cost of energy, making it energy efficient tank frame without considering duration & strength at the same time, and he can shoot too. He has a speciality that mirage,mesa & trin dont hav.

He can cast all of his ability with high eff & high effect.

Trin need to consider using ev everytime, mesa will need to sacrafice his peace maker to be tank, and mirage cant last a second when her skill wore off(since it visual effect dont show much differ from his skill.

Rhino iro sharpnel can also serve the cc for rhino.

Just why u need to nerf this perfect frame with abnormal speed ?

You can't Roar to increase IS Roar does not effect Rhino's IS, only his weapons and perhaps stomp(not sure on stomp though) I never pay attention to his damage numbers.

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[Ronyn]

My problem with this is that some people would not be happy with the aggro mechanics in general being AOE. I personally play Rhino as a large threat killer preferring to leave trash mobs for people with faster ROF weaponry. If the proposed changes were made I would be a sever disadvantage moving into situations like that because I would lack a means to lose said aggro without traversing a great distance to leave the field of aggro. In addition I honestly still feel that the AOE aggro would be exploitable. Now if the aggro mechanic were reigned in to attacks made by Rhino then I could be happy with this as it would allow me to maintain what aggro I wanted and if I picked up proximity aggro it would just mean extra EHP for the IS .

If you recall the aggro grab I've been working with was not some AOE pulse from iron skin....

it is on weapon and power attacks performed while iron skin was active.

 

Ah I see a typo up up in my post...its supposed to say "that is aggroed" not "that it aggroed"..

That probably gave off the wrong impression. I'll fix it.

In fact I'Il add a line of clarity to avoid potential confusion.

 

You can't Roar to increase IS Roar does not effect Rhino's IS, only his weapons and perhaps stomp(not sure on stomp though) I never pay attention to his damage numbers.

Correct. Roar increases the damage output of charge, stomp and weapon attacks. It has no affect iron skin or any other power aspect that isn't directly damage related. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[Slowyjoey]

The damage ramp-up enemies get in T4+ level content is basically balanced around 90%+ damage reductions (Trinity in particular) or not getting hit at all, a flat health buffer that has no scaling effect and is already falling off by the base level of T4's will never be good enough.

[geninrising]

TY Ronyn for further input on the IS/roar effect.

 

Good on the IS aggro thing I was definitely hoping you were not leaning that way. So on the ideal of more IS ehp through more defensive mods and the weapon/ability aggro effect we are in full agreement. Can we come to a consensus on the numbers however. I am currently of the mind that 50%hp/shields and armor is a good start with aggro'd enemies providing a baseline 20% per aggro'd enemy(in order to provide a good measure of benefit in single target engagements) till cap at say 60% DR. The reason I say 60% is , we are talking about having not only that DR but also having substantially more EHP than in current iterations right?

 

Is base ehp at rank 3     1500

Vitality+Redirection ehp   925

300 Armor=effectively 100% more ehp(I am going to leave out the steel fiber addition as DR has a large diminishing return after 300 armor)

 

So lets add it all up given only a 50% bonus for Shields+hp+armor.

 

I will provide 2 examples of this based on whether armor ignores the shield+health bonus or takes it into account.

 

Including hp/shield+IS base for armor calculation

1500+925+1212.5(50%hp/shield+base IS hp= 50%  bonus from armor)=3637.5 hmm seems a bit stronger than current IS iteration in a pwr str build but then we stack DR on top of it up to 60%(will use 50% for ease of understanding) which equals EHP of  7275(substantial increase over current IS)

 

Ignoring HP/shield ehp for armor calculation

1500+925+750(base IS =a 50% ehp bonus from armor)=3175 not as strong as current Is iteration in a pwer str build but then we stack 60% DR(again using 50% DR for ease of understanding) which  equals 6350 again stronger than current IS iteration.

 

lets look at this with full 100% scaling on all aspects though just for a measure of how broken it is without being reigned in to 50%

 

Including hp/shield+IS base for armor calculation

1500+1650+3150(shield/health+base IS = a 100%ehp bonus from armor)=6300 Way stronger than any other iteration but wait lets add the 50% DR for ease of understanding=12600 ehp=broken

 

Ignoring hp/shield ehp for armor calculation

1500+1650+1500(ehp from base IS=100% ehp bonus from armor)=4650 still stronger than current IS iteration by quite a bit but lets add that 50% DR to the formula=  9300 ehp=Broken

 

So If my figuring is correct(don't quote me on that, if anyone else could work the numbers to verify it would be great) 100% scaling would be broken and even if we only use 50% we still get a double strength IS which feels broken as well. 

 

How can we make it stronger without being stupid op? Even throughout the first amount of time playing without a maxed vitality/redirection/steel fiber it will trivialize the player experience and be easy mode incarnate.

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[LazyKnight]

Too far to say that team use is irrelevant to balance problems, knowing if an ability is meant to be purely self use or have team use is quite important to a balance discussion.

The current IS has no team use, the change suggested to make it an Snowgboble-lite would change nothing for a team. The reason that Snow-globe was given its current system had nothing do to with the team aspect, but to the fact that NPC can not miss something that large.  If the suggestion had included giving a hate mechanism, It would have had team utility. As suggested, it would not have changed anything beyond a rhino expected life span.

 

There is no functional hate system in this game. Currently, it's bugged and the host is targeted regardless of action taken. It is not possible for a non-host to tank.

 

Any system that uses effective health will keep rhino immortal in lower level content. There is no real way to rectify this because of how dramatically NPC's DPS scales every 10 levels. Its a fools errand to try to balance health scaling in a game like this. The only way it could work is if Rhino's IS health increase based off NPC's level (like the Cyro pod)

 

It would be so much easier to change it to a system like the nullifier's bubble. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Ronyn]

Good on the IS aggro thing I was definitely hoping you were not leaning that way. So on the ideal of more IS ehp through more defensive mods and the weapon/ability aggro effect we are in full agreement. Can we come to a consensus on the numbers however. 

Right on. The trick to sorting this out is to pick the end numbers you want then create the equation to get there.

Say you want Iron skins maximum base to be 4K and you want his maximum cap from aggro gain to be 6K..

then we just create whatever percentages and caps that create that.

 

but first-

I am currently of the mind that 50%hp/shields and armor is a good start with aggro'd enemies providing a baseline 20% per aggro'd enemy(in order to provide a good measure of benefit in single target engagements) till cap at say 60% DR. The reason I say 60% is , we are talking about having not only that DR but also having substantially more EHP than in current iterations right?

-ah...ok....hmmm. We need to sort out exactly what aggro'ing an enemy does and how.

 

Alright now....Since Iron Skins EHP would be based on defensive stats

What if each enemy aggro'ed grants Rhino a boost to the armor stat? (up to a cap!)

That way we can more easily calculate what Iron skins EHP would be under the absolute best circumstances...

without having multiple damage reduction numbers to fiddle with, we would just have the one.

 

Side note I still like the idea that more powerful enemies would grant more than weaker enemies.

Otherwise this is not likely to ever balance between large group encounters and boss encounters.

[Slowyjoey]

How is 12,600 ehp broken when a single enemy can almost slap off 1k shields in a few seconds

 

Thats more like the appropriate amount of HP it should give for T4+ level if you want Rhino to actually be "tanky", up to like wave 40.

 

Thats like as much EHP as Mesa has with Scattershield anyway, probably less actually, so if thats not overpowered AND scales much better, and not forgetting that Trinity and 99% teamwide damage reduction exists, a 12k+ health buffer isn't gonna be either.

[LazyKnight]

How is 12,600 ehp broken when a single enemy can almost slap off 1k shields in a few seconds

Those two are stuck in an ehp debate. Ignoring how bad it is past level 30, and how overpowered it is under level 30.

[Ronyn]

The current IS has no team use, the change suggested to make it an Snowgboble-lite would change nothing for a team. The reason that Snow-globe was given its current system had nothing do to with the team aspect, but to the fact that NPC can not miss something that large.  If the suggestion had included giving a hate mechanism, It would have had team utility. As suggested, it would not have changed anything beyond a rhino expected life span.

That's just it. What I was discussing some time ago was the version of iron skin that's like snowglobe with an aggro generation effect.

 

 

There is no functional hate system in this game. Currently, it's bugged and the host is targeted regardless of action taken. It is not possible for a non-host to tank.

AI attack priority manipulation is in the game. All "aggro or "hate" systems are a form of AI attack priority manipulation.

Certainly bugs can make anything lame but then....that bug is being worked on. 

 

any system that uses effective health will keep rhino immortal in lower level content. There is no real way to rectify this because of how dramatically NPC's DPS scales every 10 levels. Its a fools errand to try to balance health scaling in a game like this. The only way it could work is if Rhino's IS health increase based off NPC's level (like the Cyro pod)

Any version of Iron Skin that is useful in late game is going to make early game a walk in the park. But that doesn't matter.

What a High level character does in low level content is not a gauge of how well a power is designed.

Proper scaling means-

A high level character is balanced against high level content.

A low level character is balanced against low level content.

 

Now if we want to talk about how to bring high level characters back to the early planets that is a very different discussion.

 

 

Those two are stuck in an ehp debate. Ignoring how bad it is past level 30, and how overpowered it is under level 30.

You misunderstand entirely.

No we aren't ignoring anything, we intend to look at how it scales. 

Nor are we debating, we are actually on the same page.

We are looking at numbers to see what we can come to.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

How is 12,600 ehp broken when a single enemy can almost slap off 1k shields in a few seconds

 

Thats more like the appropriate amount of HP it should give for T4+ level if you want Rhino to actually be "tanky", up to like wave 40.

 

Thats like as much EHP as Mesa has with Scattershield anyway, probably less actually, so if thats not overpowered AND scales much better, and not forgetting that Trinity and 99% teamwide damage reduction exists, a 12k+ health buffer isn't gonna be either.

The problem with your reasoning is that you expect content to be balanced for 40 minutes. That is by far too high to balance abilities and weapons for otherwise the rest of the entire game becomes absolutely pointless and trivial.

 

As it stands abilities(other than infinitely scaling CC ones) fall off at 20 minutes roughly which is healthy currently. If we then point at 40 minutes and say that is the mark to reach then it will utterly break all content other than that.

 

Infinite content is NEVER balanced for as it is supposed to be a true test of player skill and tactical application of what you have in order to reach a higher and higher point of ACHIEVEMENT. There is no achievement if you have your powers do everything to 40 minutes. That's as bad as macro farming.

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[LazyKnight]

Any version of Iron Skin that is useful in late game is going to make early game a walk in the park. But that doesn't matter.

What a High level character does in low level content is not a gauge of how well a power is designed.

Proper scaling means-

A high level character is balanced against high level content.

A low level character is balanced against low level content.

If you use ehp, you will only get balanced game-play in just one level bracket. So unless you can get a consensus that level 40 is high level content it would only move rhino from falling apart at level 30 to 40. He would still be useless to people doing high level stuff.

[geninrising]

If you use ehp, you will only get balanced game-play in just one level bracket. So unless you can get a consensus that level 40 is high level content it would only move rhino from falling apart at level 30 to 40. He would still be useless to people doing high level stuff.

Man your forum user name says it all. Please feel free to keep yourself out of content balance conversations as you have NO IDEA how things work in this game obviously.

[LazyKnight]

Man your forum user name says it all. Please feel free to keep yourself out of content balance conversations as you have NO IDEA how things work in this game obviously.

I can do math, can you? 

 

Also, shut-up. 

[Ronyn]

If you use ehp, you will only get balanced game-play in just one level bracket. So unless you can get a consensus that level 40 is high level content it would only move rhino from falling apart at level 30 to 40. He would still be useless to people doing high level stuff.

To be clear-Balancing a game without a clear "end bracket" is a nightmare on many fronts.That is not just an Iron Skin thing at all.

Understand that Warframne is not balanced so that frames can fight endlessly...despite the existence of endless modes.

At some point we are supposed to hit a wall.

 

Now those of us in this thread have acknowledged that there are some difference of opinions of where that wall should be.

Level 40 enemies? Level 60 enemies? Not sure where you stand on that. 

 

This difference in oppinion is exactly why when suggesting an equation for balance that goes along with "Assuming end game is level 40 enemies then X numbers make sense" 

[Slowyjoey]

Man your forum user name says it all. Please feel free to keep yourself out of content balance conversations as you have NO IDEA how things work in this game obviously.

IRONY

[LazyKnight]

To be clear-Balancing a game without a clear "end bracket" is a nightmare on many fronts.That is not just an Iron Skin thing at all.

Understand that Warframne is not balanced so that frames can fight endlessly...despite the existence of endless modes.

At some point we are supposed to hit a wall.

This is just an example of another warframe's personal wall; Loki can solo a Void tower 4 survival to the 40-60 minute  (could go way higher) with hush on weapons + invisibility. The wall, as it were, is the ability to damage NPC that one has on Loki's guns. Comparatively, that same rhino would be forced to retreat at the 30 ish minute mark because Iron skin no longer last long enough to recover the lost energy.

 

 

Now those of us in this thread have acknowledged that there are some difference of opinions of where that wall should be.

Level 40 enemies? Level 60 enemies? Not sure where you stand on that.

Personally, my issue is not the wall's upper range, it's how it gets there.

 

IRONY

Hardly, that person bashes anyone that does not agree with them. Waste of my time and blocked.

 

I would appreciate if people stop assuming I want anything the OP wants. I use rhino for melee and infested, that's it. I fully understand game balance and the theory behind it.

Edited January 28, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Ronyn]

This is just an example of another warframe's personal wall; Loki can solo a Void tower 4 survival to the 40-60 minute  (could go way higher) with hush on weapons + invisibility. The wall, as it were, is the ability to damage NPC that one has on Loki's guns. Comparatively, that same rhino would be forced to retreat at the 30 ish minute mark because Iron skin no longer last long enough to recover the lost energy.

I'm aware of what power lasts to what level and why it does. This is largely why I am in this thread trying to rework how Iron Skin works.

Still, there needs to be some "end point" to aim towards for a game to balance. 

 

And in the case of iron skin, there is not exactly a simple fix. For example if we went with the "amount of hits" design then sure, it would not be so prone to breaking it higher levels but it would then be at the mercy of whatever enemy has a rapid fire weapon even in early levels.

Solves one problem but creates another.

 

 

I would appreciate if people stop assuming I want anything the OP wants. I use rhino for melee and infested, that's it. I fully understand game balance and the theory behind it.

I don't know who was assuming that...certainly not me.

As for your understanding of game balance and the theory behind it, well I don't know you well enough to say either way.

I just respond to whatever the post is in front of me without bias toward the person. I'm pretty easy to get along with in that way.

 

 

Personally, my issue is not the wall's upper range, it's how it gets there.

I'm concerned for all of it. Scaling should feel right from the power floor to the power ceiling, and everything in between.

That said, my main purpose at this time is to create a solid set of mechanics for iron skin to function on.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

I can do math, can you?

Also, shut-up.

Your math is not the problem. The problem is that you are not taking into account 99% of the game in your "efforts at balance"

Also lets be clear I don't bash anyone that does not hold the same opinions as me. Robyn for example, when we disagree on things because we see a flaw that the other did not, we work them out. Additionally we both think extremely extensively on the repercussions of any proposed changes. The problem I come to is when individuals speak rather than think. When they make suggestions for things that appear outlandish and are clearly exploitable. What I dislike most is callous disregard of concerns of balance in suggestions when measured against more than just their target usage. Comments like others have used, a mere line or two that does not actually do anything other than say "That's not gud" or some other such nonsense it infuriates me. If you can provide ample reason to consider your proposition worthwhile as a whole or with a few tweaks, then it is beneficial. However, when you criticize others thoughtful work which encompasses the game as a WHOLE, WITHOUT actually putting thought into your critique or ensuring the scope of your comment includes the game as a whole then you waste everone's time.

These kinds of suggestions and "opinions" are extremely detrimental to the welfare of any game and inevitably lead to horrible situations for both the players and game developers. If you don't like my thoughts then you are in fact part of the problem and should have no bearing on the solution.

I am fine with discussing and debating various aspects and why you feel they are worthwhile however when you show little to no respect for the overall balance then you add nothing to the discourse.

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[LazyKnight]

Your math is not the problem. The problem is that you are not taking into account 99% of the game in your "efforts at balance"

I have seen your ideas, and why are you talking about yourself?

 

 

I blocked you, I am not interested in talking to you. Or what you think or anything else. Do not bother responding to this. As, i do not care what you consider to be balance.

Edited January 28, 2015 by LazyKnight