Here's How We Remove Serration And (Attempt To) Balance The Game. Damage 2.5 (Designated Megathread)

[Jahadaya]

 

I am with you on all points... except 3 (which is arguable one of the most important. Why you ask? Well, because it is too easy. ranking a weapon to thirty is far to fast. The solutions is simple then right? Nope. You cannot just massively increase the amount of time needed to rank a weapon to thirty for two reasons. One, modding. Holding back how fast we can customize our weapons to such an extent necessary to provide some semblance of a progression with weapon power will constrain the mod system so much that it will lose a lot of its luster. Now lets say that you made two "rankings" of a weapon, one for available mod slots and one for weapon damage, there is still an issue, and a massive one. What would be the difference in power between a new and veteran player? If all it takes to make a weapon powerful, then a MR 4 player could easily have the exact same amount of power as a MR 19 player. That is wrong. There should be some semblance of Progression to the power you are capable of, it should not be handed out like government subsidies. Just look at the farms on Draco, Sechura and the such. 

 

I wrote 15,000 words on this whole topic of "Progression" and I am going to try to quickly sum it up into a few sentences. First, keep all of your points in the OP except #3. Then, add 50-ish quests that come together in a timeline of sorts that tells the story of Warframe (basically all past events).

Then, make a new "rank" to work together with MR called "Progression rank". This Progression Rank is simply the amount of quests completed. For every Quest completed, you gain one Progression Rank. For every Progression Rank, you gain +5% weapon damage. This would make the progression of power a long term rather than short term goal, in addition you could also make it so skill was required to gain power by correlating the available power and the quests you are faced against.

 

That is the shortest summary possible, and before you point out the obvious faults in that summary, read the whole concept (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382328-progression-20-a-complete-rework-of-the-presentation-of-warframe/). If you want a "clean" copy (.docx file) that may be easier to read than the forum version, shoot me a pm. 

 

Okay, that may not be the best solution, but correlating damage to weapon level is a very bad idea, it would remove almost all progression, and progression is that huge theme that brings the majority of people back to a game time and again. 

 

Good points. But I did address this with my "Tiering System", idea. The sense of progression that Serration provides would be more or less exchanged into that system.

 

Actually, there is another way to change this.

 

For a long read, check this thread

 

TL;DR:

* Nerf (but don't REMOVE) all damage-increasing mods as well as enemy scaling.

* Add extra slots for utility (in Warframes, Sentinels, Kubrows, Archwing and Weapons alike)

* Change critical hits to be tied to stealth and weakspots (basicly: weakspot-shots or stealth-attacks gives enough crit to unmodded weapons to guarantee critical hits, bonus stacks with critical chance mods for red crit chances) so ANY weapon can be built for skillshots.

* Corrupted and regular counterpart-mods do not stack. Corrupted are always stronger, but have their penalties too. So, Serration or Heavy Caliber, pick your mod.

* Various buffs, changes and new choices to underwhelming mods (physical mods and pure status mods are better options etc)

 

What this does:

* Mods as they are, in essence, all remain. Nothing needs to be compensated for

* Scaling is not as absurd

* Damage does not compete with utility whatsoever.

* Damage-increasing mods will have more variety regardless, as you can specialize in more various ways. Critbuilds (even on non-crit weapons!), elemental focus, physical focus, status builds of various kinds, rainbow builds, faction min/max, add punchthrough etc. You decide HOW you wanna focus your damage, while min/maxing will still exist for those that want it.

Great ideas! Of course my ideas aren't the only way to solve this :D But I'm glad you get it, understanding the problem is the first step to fixing it. 

[N2-Power]

If you find the game is imbalanced, how about making suggestions to improve the balance? You don't have to make up all this crap about removing serration. It will require a lot of work for DE to pull it off and it will have no effect on the game. People will simply use a different mod instead of serration to max out their damage. Not effect on balance, no effect on build diversity.

[Tyreuzs]

I would suggest to give all weapons equal stats (similar to the current pvp system) and per mastery rank the damage increases for 3-5%

[GD_Moontiger]

Why is there no engame melee?

You dont have multishot melee mods

[Jahadaya]

If you find the game is imbalanced, how about making suggestions to improve the balance? You don't have to make up all this crap about removing serration. It will require a lot of work for DE to pull it off and it will have no effect on the game. People will simply use a different mod instead of serration to max out their damage. Not effect on balance, no effect on build diversity.

Um....

 

The OP is right there. I'd suggest you read it :P This is mostly about build diversity, too. Not mainly balance. 

[MylesShort]

I 100% agree with doing something to change serration.
What's the point of that last mod slot if every single person is going to automatically add serration to every single weapon they have.
It's literally just a waste of a slot seeing as how you actually NEED it to complete content.

The sooner this changes, the better.

[Evanescent]

Well said, sir. Wholehearted support.

[ThePresident777]

Content level x is the same as content level x + 1 except that content level x + 1 kills Tenno faster and dies slower.  What mods allow players to do is choose their TTK and the enemies TTK.  No one ever takes that into account.  Instead they indirectly argue against players having this freedom, calling it OP or unbalanced if it's not to their taste.

 

DE's response to nerf demands in the past has been to nerf content then put out a new higher powered replacement later (twin gremlins replaced by Akzani/Akstilleo/dual cestra, for example).  So, the players that want a high TTK are the ones that pay for all these nerfs.  While the players who want the nerfs already had tons of options in pre-nerfed content for free, before the latest nerf.  The game starts out nerfed, for ffs.  All this balance bullS#&$ is a rip off of players who want high powered content.

[Ironlixivium]

     I feel like a few of you are missing the problem. We're supposed to have choice, but with our current system, we don't. We have a bunch of mods that should be usable, but we can't because we have to choose between them, and more damage. I feel like someone's gonna quote me and say I contradicted myself after that last sentence, if you were thinking about doing that, you missed the point. I'm trying to say that we can't actually make a good decision to use a mod other than our serration/multishot/elementals because almost every decision to replace one of those mods with a utility mod is a bad one. for example, I'd LIKE to put punch through on my tigris, but because it needs the damage/reload mods so badly, I can't. 

     Although I understand the issue, I can't upvote this because I'm just as fearful that it won't come out to be the same game afterwards.

[N2-Power]

Um....

 

The OP is right there. I'd suggest you read it :P This is mostly about build diversity, too. Not mainly balance. 

 I did read it. It simply won't work. Serration will be replaced by another mod to optimize the build. If you want to go for max dps you have no other choice than going for the optimized build. There is just one optimized build and that has 8 specific mods in it. I doesn't matter if one of them is Serration or not, you will always go for these 8 mods. There is no diversity as long as you go for max dps.

 

If you are willing to sacrifice max dps for a build that you for whatever reason prefer (probably because it is more fun for you), however, you have all the diversity you want. You will simply no longer be able to complete the same content as with a max dps build, or at least not as easily. Since you can already do that, there is no point in removing Serration.

 

Also, the OP mentioned both diversity and balance, so I felt it would be appropriate to mention them both, too.

[Fiiiinnn]

this is a cool idea

[Jahadaya]

 I did read it. It simply won't work. Serration will be replaced by another mod to optimize the build. If you want to go for max dps you have no other choice than going for the optimized build. There is just one optimized build and that has 8 specific mods in it. I doesn't matter if one of them is Serration or not, you will always go for these 8 mods. There is no diversity as long as you go for max dps.

 

If you are willing to sacrifice max dps for a build that you for whatever reason prefer (probably because it is more fun for you), however, you have all the diversity you want. You will simply no longer be able to complete the same content as with a max dps build, or at least not as easily. Since you can already do that, there is no point in removing Serration.

 

Also, the OP mentioned both diversity and balance, so I felt it would be appropriate to mention them both, too.

You argue this yet I already countered it in the OP.

 

There ideally wouldn't be just "one mod" that clearly out-benefits every other mod like there currently is (i.e. Serration), as there would instead be multiple mods that are equally good that people would pick and choose depending on their playstyle.

 

And your argument of one-build-to-rule-them-all still taking place is both trivial and negligible as even now when we have a much higher mod-usefullness gap there is still a notable amount of build diversity. But these builds are simply just different ways of buiding for DPS, not actually building in a way with mods that the specific player finds fun.

 

The problem with the "Oh you don't want to build for max DPS? Go ahead, use any mods you want." mentality right now is that building a certain way (pure DPS) makes your gun essentially like 10-20x more effective than if you didn't and actually used mods that you found interesting. This number shouldn't be 10-20x, but more around 10-20%.

[Radagosh]

I feel like removing serration and stuff should aslo include removing the slots. Thats why i feel its totaly useless.

Anyways it also feels like formaing and potatoing weapons is way less useful after removing those mods (removing serration+splitchamber would free up 29 modpoints)

Also only lvling a weapon shouldnt make it stronger a lvl 30 weapon shouldnt be as strong as a lvl 30 weapon with serration and splitchamber on. If you want to remove those mods remove them for good and balance the enemies health, armor and shields and dont give us another system that overpowers weapons.

 

I dont like the idea of removing those mods because they pretty much show your progress in warframe. Sure they end up on every build but getting them and lvling them is one of the goals players have first when they start out with this game.

[ThePresident777]

0)  Reducing the amount of damage players can do, reduces how fast they can kill enemies, which reduces player choice.  Not everyone wants to fight bullet sponges all the time.  Some players like extremely fast action.  They want to see and cause carnage every where.  But the choices do not stop there.  Not only is how fast one kills enemies a choice, how fast the enemies kill players is also a choice.  Both of these choices are destroyed by nerfs.

 

In fact, carnage is intended to be a significant part of Warframe:

 

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

 

1)  Which are the utility mods?  Mods that effect Damage Per Second (DPS) are not utility mods or not strictly so.  Rate of Fire, Magazine, and Reload Speed affect DPS.  They are damage mods in disguise.  But, they are different than plain damage mods because they change the firing time of a weapon (and they do not increase Damage Per Shot).  They change the action of the weapon, the ratio between the amount of time spent firing and the amount of time spent reloading.  That is something that can be felt even if one is shooting at a wall, unlike plain damage which requires an enemy to show any effect.  Some people hate reloading because it's inaction and they want action.  Some people like reloading because the inaction gives them a feeling of suspense.  But, to make that choice for one's self currently, players have to give up Damage Per Second when they choose reload or magazine mods because those mods are weaker than plain damage mods and those are weaker than rate of fire mods.   Yet, this important choice, how a gun feels to use, is made inferior compared to plain damage mod.

 

2)  Weapon Tier Potatoes would give players more choice than this thread proposes:

a)  Every weapon has a purpose.

b)  Every purpose has a metric.

c)  Every metric has a maximum.

d)  Every weapon advances along the metric of it's purpose to it's maximum.

e)  Mutipurpose weapons require a mathematician to create.

[Jahadaya]

0)  Reducing the amount of damage players can do, reduces how fast they can kill enemies, which reduces player choice.  Not everyone wants to fight bullet sponges all the time.  Some players like extremely fast action.  They want to see and cause carnage every where.  But the choices do not stop there.  Not only is how fast one kills enemies a choice, how fast the enemies kill players is also a choice.  Both of these choices are destroyed by nerfs.

 

In fact, carnage is intended to be a significant part of Warframe:

If you'd read my 6th and 7th steps, you'd realize that this also (and quite obviously, honestly) means a change to WF's enemy scaling as well. Not just a flat out nerf to us while keeping enemies the same. And also, how exactly are these choices destroyed by nerfs? 

 

You do realize that not only do the damage mods give us a lacking sense of build variety, but they also help making designing bosses insanely hard? With the massive imbalance in weapon power (which would be fixed with my suggestion), and the massive slope in scaling (which would also be fixed with my suggestion), there is no clear damage-output from us to design bosses around and frankly choosing either side to balance around (mid-tier weapons vs. insanely powerful weapons) kills variety. If you balance around most of the guns in the game (i.e. mid-high tier weapons), people will just take crazy powerful weapons and just complain that bosses die in literally 1 second, and don't feel like actual bosses (which people are doing now). 

 

If you design it around the crazy OP weapons, people will complain that bosses are bullet-sponges and that they're limited to the small amount of stupidly OP guns in the game, even if they prefer other weapons (which people also complain about, but less since DE has chosen mostly the other options.)

 

DE has tried to find a middle ground, with "invincibility-phases" and cheap stuff like that. But I shouldn't even have to say how much people (including DE themselves) hate those. 

 

 

1)  Which are the utility mods?  Mods that effect Damage Per Second (DPS) are not utility mods or not strictly so.  Rate of Fire, Magazine, and Reload Speed affect DPS.  They are damage mods in disguise.  But, they are different than plain damage mods because they change the firing time of a weapon (and they do not increase Damage Per Shot).  They change the action of the weapon, the ratio between the amount of time spent firing and the amount of time spent reloading.  That is something that can be felt even if one is shooting at a wall, unlike plain damage which requires an enemy to show any effect.  Some people hate reloading because it's inaction and they want action.  Some people like reloading because the inaction gives them a feeling of suspense.  But, to make that choice for one's self currently, players have to give up Damage Per Second when they choose reload or magazine mods because those mods are weaker than plain damage mods and those are weaker than rate of fire mods.   Yet, this important choice, how a gun feels to use, is made inferior compared to plain damage mod.

 

2)  Weapon Tier Potatoes would give players more choice than this thread proposes:

a)  Every weapon has a purpose.

b)  Every purpose has a metric.

c)  Every metric has a maximum.

d)  Every weapon advances along the metric of it's purpose to it's maximum.

e)  Mutipurpose weapons require a mathematician to create.

So... you agree with me? 

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

The only problem caused by high damage mods is the imbalance between your weapon and damage skills (a skill that does 2000 slash damage can't stand up against a weapons putting out 50k+dps).

Look at (almost) any mmo and you'll see that you can balance crazy high dps, DE just doesn't know how.

Why enemies scale so ridiculously, when nothing about us does, is beyond me. You're right in that going from one shotting enemies to getting one shotted by bullet sponges with no in between is a problem, but you're wrong when you say that damage mods are the root.

[N2-Power]

You argue this yet I already countered it in the OP.

 

There ideally wouldn't be just "one mod" that clearly out-benefits every other mod like there currently is (i.e. Serration), as there would instead be multiple mods that are equally good that people would pick and choose depending on their playstyle.

 

And your argument of one-build-to-rule-them-all still taking place is both trivial and negligible as even now when we have a much higher mod-usefullness gap there is still a notable amount of build diversity. But these builds are simply just different ways of buiding for DPS, not actually building in a way with mods that the specific player finds fun.

 

The problem with the "Oh you don't want to build for max DPS? Go ahead, use any mods you want." mentality right now is that building a certain way (pure DPS) makes your gun essentially like 10-20x more effective than if you didn't and actually used mods that you found interesting. This number shouldn't be 10-20x, but more around 10-20%.

Nope. There is just one way to do it. This is simply how optimization works, Ok, theoretically it could be possible to have multiple max dps builds at the same time, but only if a weapon and the mods were designed just right. So that anything, damage mod combos, damage/fire rate, anything else you can imagine will equal out on this weapon - highly unlikely.

 

Build diversity in building for dps. Not so sure about that, but if it does happen already that means people opt for different mods, sacrificing dps (since they do not use the optimized build) either because they do not know the actual optmized build, lack the mods or Formas to build it, or prefer their build even though it has lower dps (= is more fun to use). So, people do actually pick builds they prefer over max dps?

 

If I interpret your last paragraph correctly, what you want is building however you like and still have near (80-90%) max dps?

[StarScribe]

Don't feel that there is a need to fix something that isn't broken...

[Jahadaya]

Nope. There is just one way to do it. This is simply how optimization works, Ok, theoretically it could be possible to have multiple max dps builds at the same time, but only if a weapon and the mods were designed just right. So that anything, damage mod combos, damage/fire rate, anything else you can imagine will equal out on this weapon - highly unlikely.

 

Build diversity in building for dps. Not so sure about that, but if it does happen already that means people opt for different mods, sacrificing dps (since they do not use the optimized build) either because they do not know the actual optmized build, lack the mods or Formas to build it, or prefer their build even though it has lower dps (= is more fun to use). So, people do actually pick builds they prefer over max dps?

 

If I interpret your last paragraph correctly, what you want is building however you like and still have near (80-90%) max dps?

What I want is for modding to be putting in mods that mainly change the feel/way you use your weapon, instead of just stacking in obligatory mods to get the highest DPS (with little variation depending on how much you're willing to sacrifice.) 

 

 

The only problem caused by high damage mods is the imbalance between your weapon and damage skills (a skill that does 2000 slash damage can't stand up against a weapons putting out 50k+dps).

Look at (almost) any mmo and you'll see that you can balance crazy high dps, DE just doesn't know how.

Why enemies scale so ridiculously, when nothing about us does, is beyond me. You're right in that going from one shotting enemies to getting one shotted by bullet sponges with no in between is a problem, but you're wrong when you say that damage mods are the root.

I'm not saying damage mods are the root, I'm saying that they help exaggerate it. 

 

Enemy scaling is the root for this problem. Hence why I suggested changes to that also. 

[N2-Power]

What I want is for modding to be putting in mods that mainly change the feel/way you use your weapon, instead of just stacking in obligatory mods to get the highest DPS (with little variation depending on how much you're willing to sacrifice.) 

You can do that. Pick whatever mods you want and play whatever content level you feel is appropriate for your build. No change is needed to be able to do so.

 

If you want to force yourself to play T4, can't do that with your build right now and therefore want it to be more powerful, then go ahead with this thread. But know the price for the ability to pick mods that "mainly change the feel/way you use your weapon" while still being able to do all content levels, to the point of (almost) complete freedom is to make modding practically (almost) irrelevant.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

 

 

 

0)  Reducing the amount of damage players can do, reduces how fast they can kill enemies, which reduces player choice.  Not everyone wants to fight bullet sponges all the time.  Some players like extremely fast action.  They want to see and cause carnage every where.  But the choices do not stop there.  Not only is how fast one kills enemies a choice, how fast the enemies kill players is also a choice.  Both of these choices are destroyed by nerfs.

 

In fact, carnage is intended to be a significant part of Warframe:

 

 

 

1)  Which are the utility mods?  Mods that effect Damage Per Second (DPS) are not utility mods or not strictly so.  Rate of Fire, Magazine, and Reload Speed affect DPS.  They are damage mods in disguise.  But, they are different than plain damage mods because they change the firing time of a weapon (and they do not increase Damage Per Shot).  They change the action of the weapon, the ratio between the amount of time spent firing and the amount of time spent reloading.  That is something that can be felt even if one is shooting at a wall, unlike plain damage which requires an enemy to show any effect.  Some people hate reloading because it's inaction and they want action.  Some people like reloading because the inaction gives them a feeling of suspense.  But, to make that choice for one's self currently, players have to give up Damage Per Second when they choose reload or magazine mods because those mods are weaker than plain damage mods and those are weaker than rate of fire mods.   Yet, this important choice, how a gun feels to use, is made inferior compared to plain damage mod.

 

2)  Weapon Tier Potatoes would give players more choice than this thread proposes:

a)  Every weapon has a purpose.

b)  Every purpose has a metric.

c)  Every metric has a maximum.

d)  Every weapon advances along the metric of it's purpose to it's maximum.

e)  Mutipurpose weapons require a mathematician to create.

Yes to all of this.

Also, I add on f: Don't use the word "balance" in your title thread OP because it seems most of you forum users really don't know what that term means.

[Jahadaya]

You can do that. Pick whatever mods you want and play whatever content level you feel is appropriate for your build. No change is needed to be able to do so.

Are you really saying this? 

 

If you want to force yourself to play T4, can't do that with your build right now and therefore want it to be more powerful, then go ahead with this thread. But know the price for the ability to pick mods that "mainly change the feel/way you use your weapon" while still being able to do all content levels, to the point of (almost) complete freedom is to make modding practically (almost) irrelevant.

It wouldn't be nearly irrelevant at all. If you've actually read and comprehended the OP like I hope you have, you would realize that elementals, multishot, conditional mods, firerate, etc. mods would all still be in the game and matter.  

 

Also, I add on f: Don't use the word "balance" in your title thread OP because it seems most of you forum users really don't know what that term means.

 

I used balance because at this time the discussion of removing Serration also came with the discussion of how the game would be balanced after it's removal, which is something that I addressed in the OP. I think it's perfectly fine to use the word in the title, as it represents the topic well. I'm not sure why somebody wouldn't understand what it means in regards to the topic unless they didn't read the OP. 

Edited May 9, 2015 by Jahadaya

[N2-Power]

Are you really saying this? 

Did I say something funny?

 

It wouldn't be nearly irrelevant at all. If you've actually read and comprehended the OP like I hope you have, you would realize that elementals, multishot, conditional mods, firerate, etc. mods would all still be in the game and matter.  

What I mean is this: If you can pick whatever you want and do not need any damage mods to complete all of the content, it doesn't matter how you mod your weapon, because the effects are so little. That is why I said irrelevant. Note that, by "damage mods", I also mean stuff like multishot, fire rate, status chance, even magazine size and reload speed. You could argue that you will need some mods, but it doesnt matter in which combination, but then you will again have certain combinations outshine others to some extent.

 

I believe I haven't made clear why I am actually against this. I'm afraid that after such a change, we will have the same situation as before, just with lower numbers and perhaps more or less different builds, even if everything is balanced. Doing the change will take time, however, and I'd rather have the devs invest that time in different areas.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Did I say something funny?

 

What I mean is this: If you can pick whatever you want and do not need any damage mods to complete all of the content, it doesn't matter how you mod your weapon, because the effects are so little. That is why I said irrelevant. Note that, by "damage mods", I also mean stuff like multishot, fire rate, status chance, even magazine size and reload speed. You could argue that you will need some mods, but it doesnt matter in which combination, but then you will again have certain combinations outshine others to some extent.

 

I believe I haven't made clear why I am actually against this. I'm afraid that after such a change, we will have the same situation as before, just with lower numbers and perhaps more or less different builds, even if everything is balanced. Doing the change will take time, however, and I'd rather have the devs invest that time in different areas.

With all the changes he suggested that would leave us with two mods that improve damage (multishot 25% of the time and heavy calibur with significant penalty) I think there will be a drastic difference for the better.

[N2-Power]

With all the changes he suggested that would leave us with two mods that improve damage (multishot 25% of the time and heavy calibur with significant penalty) I think there will be a drastic difference for the better.

Don't forget that fire rate, status chance and other mods also increase your dps. At the end of the day, few mods don't.