Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[Aimop95]

My idea was that WoF's cost should be higher than the other toggles that we currently have on 4 abilities but that duration mods should add efficiency (at the cost of mod slots, which is trade-off enough IMO) so that those who want to maintain long WoFs can do so at a cost.  

A high energy cost toggle would have to be something like 10-20 energy per second at it's base so that using would force the user to risk running out of energy. And I'm fairly sure people would complain about how said energy consumption doesn't do justice to the damage output.

 

Another Idea I have for WoF could be to make it something like Hydroid's ult. Castable on an area with a max of 7-10 pillars of flame that have a guaranteed hit on enemies, number of enemies increased by strength mods. This really would make Ember the "caster" frame the DE's keep saying they want her to be, while keeping her away from danger, since she's not very tanky.

[RealPandemonium]

This really would make Ember the "caster" frame the DE's keep saying they want her to be, while keeping her away from danger, since she's not very tanky.

I keep seeing sentiments like this but a fragile caster that weaves in and out of danger is a good archetype and DE has pulled it off well in Ember.  It's sad that people just want to make her AFK-tier easy to play and DE slowly but surely caves to such requests.  If you are alert, use cover and Accelerant, and take down or cc priority targets, Ember is plenty viable and quite rewarding to play.  Or, you could use the melee QT+Rage+Life Strike build that was buffed by the patch and play her as a bruiser (no Overheat necessary!)  

[Azawarau]

Like that it counters your arguement. But go on.

I'll give she does less damage, but generally redistributing all hostile damage in a 52m radius area to the nearest creature to the source forever can hardly be compared to a 2s stun.

Its just as i said

 

Hysteria aside for obvious reasons. It needs to have invi removed and the dmage output is several times less than what ember can do with melee and accelerant alone

 

The stun is actually 3-4 seconds unless it was recently lowered and it comes with a damage buff that can be applied to all of her weapons and powers

 

Combined with WoF thats alot of damage mitigation

 

Also enemies 52 meters away probably wont damage you

 

Enemies 52 meters away that you havnt killed yet while others are entering the field and youre unable to recast your chaos will

 

Also theres the KD effect on fire blast that has nasty CC and fairly high damage when following accelerant

 

The voice of reason , listen to this dude .

Thanks for the support but generally speaking its probably best not to side with me or people will lash out at you for it

 

I wish i were joking with that but these forums have some very serious issues

 

It's not really a conflict since it's an option rather than a requirement.  With the most recent changes even a 3 second WoF is extremely effective so I don't think anyone could complain.  

Can you explain further?

[Aimop95]

I keep seeing sentiments like this but a fragile caster that weaves in and out of danger is a good archetype and DE has pulled it off well in Ember.  It's sad that people just want to make her AFK-tier easy to play and DE slowly but surely caves to such requests.  If you are alert, use cover and Accelerant, and take down or cc priority targets, Ember is plenty viable and quite rewarding to play.  Or, you could use the melee QT+Rage+Life Strike build that was buffed by the patch and play her as a bruiser (no Overheat necessary!)  

That's the thing though. DE took overheat away because they don't want Ember to be near danger. I know you can play her fairly close to enemies, in fact, a lot of her abilities demands you get up close and personal. But if we are going to have to do that, give us back Overheat or make WoF truly toggable so that when she's nearing the enemy, she's already doing damage. However, since the prospect of pure toggling seems rather distant, making WoF an area of affect is to me the next best thing. 

[Azawarau]

That's the thing though. DE took overheat away because they don't want Ember to be near danger. I know you can play her fairly close to enemies, in fact, a lot of her abilities demands you get up close and personal. But if we are going to have to do that, give us back Overheat or make WoF truly toggable so that when she's nearing the enemy, she's already doing damage. However, since the prospect of pure toggling seems rather distant, making WoF an area of affect is to me the next best thing. 

Thats taking information and bending it

 

They didnt want her to be near danger so they took overheat

 

At the same time all of her powers are close range which woud imply that they do want her to be close to danger

 

Overheat wasnt changed for the reasons youre saying

 

It was changed because it made tankier frames obsoleted

 

Theres really no reason to use Rhino when Ember could have more Damage mitigation,CC,and armor

 

And then she has a better buff though it wouldnt work on other frames powers but still you get my point i hope

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

Sorry, when I read that you will chew through health restores on Mars, I found myself very disappointed. 

[Aimop95]

Thats taking information and bending it

 

They didnt want her to be near danger so they took overheat

 

At the same time all of her powers are close range which woud imply that they do want her to be close to danger

 

Overheat wasnt changed for the reasons youre saying

 

It was changed because it made tankier frames obsoleted

 

Theres really no reason to use Rhino when Ember could have more Damage mitigation,CC,and armor

 

And then she has a better buff though it wouldnt work on other frames powers but still you get my point i hope

So they couldn't just lower the damage mitigation to 50%?

[Azawarau]

Sorry, when I read that you will chew through health restores on Mars, I found myself very disappointed. 

Who told you that...

 

 

So they couldn't just lower the damage mitigation to 50%?

Let me ask you some things

 

Did she need 50% DR before? Does she need it now? Will she be played as a caster or as a tank with DR?

[Aimop95]

Who told you that...

 

 

Let me ask you some things

 

Did she need 50% DR before? Does she need it now? Will she be played as a caster or as a tank with DR?

The main reason people don't play her is because she can't stand in a crowd, despite having abilities that require close proximity to said crowd.

[Azawarau]

The main reason people don't play her is because she can't stand in a crowd, despite having abilities that require close proximity to said crowd.

As someone who submains ember. Ive not had that issue until after lvl 40 enemies on certain factions

 

Lvl 35 and under die easily to her fire

 

Lvl 40 grineer are fairly easy

 

Lvl 40 corrupted can be annoying but just dont have the damage output to really take her down

 

Lvl 40 Corpus can take you down instantly if you arent extremely careful

 

Lvl 40 infested arent an issue until armor comes into play with parasitics.

 

I usually melee with ember but also run and gun when the mood calls for it

 

Shes definitely up to mid tier content all around

 

I feel like Accelerant is incredibly underrated on these forums

[Prospal]

So after a year of asking for ember buffs, and asking for a toggle on WoF, they do literally just that. They add a toggle. It's like some childish prank and it's downright insulting. So I'm sorry, maybe they do listen. I should have asked them to actually think.

Maybe you should also look at the speed buff, change of her third ability and armor increase, then look back at the history warframe in general - and see what there have been both pretty bad mistakes, and pretty nice fixes/buffs; then, maybe, you will notice what whole "Waaaaah, they never listen!" thing is wrong.

 

I don't even debate about what whole "Toggle" thing in particular on the World of Fire is hilariously sad "buff", but you are ignoring a set of purely positive changes and whine about how devs never listen to community.

 

That is both rude and wrong. 

 

/Not even starting about how community has it's own pretty fair share of really $&*&*#(%& "Fixes" for everything, always./

 

Aaaanyway, I dunno, I probably should have bothered with whole "Polite" deal, since that apperently works as well as throwing S#&$ into the fan, creating useles waste of space all while I actually agree with what most members of community think about what should have been one of the more unarguably positive and important changes to Ember - buff to the World of Fire is hilariously weak attempt at fixing anything, and made that particular ability of Ember only worse. It is a sad picture.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Prospal

[traybong111]

I keep seeing sentiments like this but a fragile caster that weaves in and out of danger is a good archetype and DE has pulled it off well in Ember.  It's sad that people just want to make her AFK-tier easy to play and DE slowly but surely caves to such requests.  If you are alert, use cover and Accelerant, and take down or cc priority targets, Ember is plenty viable and quite rewarding to play.  Or, you could use the melee QT+Rage+Life Strike build that was buffed by the patch and play her as a bruiser (no Overheat necessary!)  

 

She's supposed to be a high-risk, high-return frame, except WoF is all risk and no return whatsoever. The casting speed buff is nice, but it still needs to have either the target cap or duration removed to be a suitable ult. 

 

I mean sure, I liked playing no shield/health max strength Ember because it reminded me of Hotline Miami a lot (you oneshot enemies after Accelerant, and enemies oneshot you after Accelerant). But in a game where endless spawning is the norm 'taking risk' indefinitely does mean you will fail quite early and often, so I can understand why people want something 'safer' than spamming Accelerant. In any other game Ember's survival tactic would be DEAD THINGS CAN'T HURT ME and it'd work pretty well, just not in this one. 

[Azawarau]

She's supposed to be a high-risk, high-return frame, except WoF is all risk and no return whatsoever. The casting speed buff is nice, but it still needs to have either the target cap or duration removed to be a suitable ult. 

 

I mean sure, I liked playing no shield/health max strength Ember because it reminded me of Hotline Miami a lot (you oneshot enemies after Accelerant, and enemies oneshot you after Accelerant). But in a game where endless spawning is the norm 'taking risk' indefinitely does mean you will fail quite early and often, so I can understand why people want something 'safer' than spamming Accelerant. In any other game Ember's survival tactic would be DEAD THINGS CAN'T HURT ME and it'd work pretty well, just not in this one. 

Use accelerant ands high or max power STR

 

It really does scale faster than anything else with power STR

[EvanTheNewbie]

Use accelerant ands high or max power STR

 

It really does scale faster than anything else with power STR

Would love to try that out, but that's just too much energy, all in all.

[Aimop95]

Welp, the easiest fix would be to extend the base duration to 20 sec or so (code wise I would think anyway). 

 

The more crowd pleasing would be to make it toggable and would do away with duration builds forever. 

[RealPandemonium]

That's the thing though. DE took overheat away because they don't want Ember to be near danger. I know you can play her fairly close to enemies, in fact, a lot of her abilities demands you get up close and personal. But if we are going to have to do that, give us back Overheat or make WoF truly toggable so that when she's nearing the enemy, she's already doing damage. However, since the prospect of pure toggling seems rather distant, making WoF an area of affect is to me the next best thing. 

They definitely want her to be relatively close, just not with godmode.  By removing the passive mitigation of overheat and introducing the active (but potentially airtight) mitigation of Accelerant they allowed her to stay safe at closer ranges while also increasing the payoff and lowering the kill-time gap with the damage boost.  

[Aimop95]

They definitely want her to be relatively close, just not with godmode.  By removing the passive mitigation of overheat and introducing the active (but potentially airtight) mitigation of Accelerant they allowed her to stay safe at closer ranges while also increasing the payoff and lowering the kill-time gap with the damage boost.  

Well then it seems that one of the best solutions is to make WoF toggable, but with a high energy cost.

[geninrising]

They definitely want her to be relatively close, just not with godmode.  By removing the passive mitigation of overheat and introducing the active (but potentially airtight) mitigation of Accelerant they allowed her to stay safe at closer ranges while also increasing the payoff and lowering the kill-time gap with the damage boost.  

My problem with the playstyle that they seem to want her to fill is that she is still not tanky enough to be forced to close with attackers. In t4 without a huge range on Accelerant you face a hard battle every time you turn a corner. She still feels improperly balanced for a close to medium range frame due to her quite low HP. I would expect them to put her hp closer to Saryn's if they wanted her so close to the conflict.

[RealPandemonium]

My problem with the playstyle that they seem to want her to fill is that she is still not tanky enough to be forced to close with attackers. In t4 without a huge range on Accelerant you face a hard battle every time you turn a corner. She still feels improperly balanced for a close to medium range frame due to her quite low HP. I would expect them to put her hp closer to Saryn's if they wanted her so close to the conflict.

30m Accelerant with just Stretch equipped is plenty for me.  

 

The only problem is that builds that use Narrow Minded and/or don't have max efficiency are kind of gimped by this design.  It's still closer to ideal than many other frame designs in terms of actual gameplay and decision-making.  I really wonder sometimes if all the Ember detractors are doing one of the two aforementioned things and then concluding that Ember is really bad without really seeing what she's capable of.  It's either that or they're too lazy/bad to play her with a good setup.  

Edited January 23, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[geninrising]

Welp, the easiest fix would be to extend the base duration to 20 sec or so (code wise I would think anyway). 

 

The more crowd pleasing would be to make it toggable and would do away with duration builds forever. 

This is certainly the consensus, although we could live with a duration based only if they gave it 20 seconds base.

 

In fact I actually have the idea that simply activating it repeatedly may be more effective overall for rolling dps builds due to the 5 targets struck simultaneously on activation. Spam build with base duration, stretch, intensify, transient fortitude and hit 2,3,4,4...repeat.

[Racercowboy]

My problem with the playstyle that they seem to want her to fill is that she is still not tanky enough to be forced to close with attackers. In t4 without a huge range on Accelerant you face a hard battle every time you turn a corner. She still feels improperly balanced for a close to medium range frame due to her quite low HP. I would expect them to put her hp closer to Saryn's if they wanted her so close to the conflict.

Another solution would be to address a problem ember has been having for a very long time: Help her apply the massive damage she actually has.

 

Think about it, how can a squishy frame like Nova or Mirage jump into the middle of a crowd and come out alive? Cause they kill everyone with their high damage. Believe it or not, Ember has high damage too. Fireblast does 3000 damage over it's duration base, not counting the initial blast. World on Fire does something way over that. Why then, does Ember have a hard time going into the middle of a crowd and wiping them out? Cause of the hard coded limitations on said abilities that deal the outrageous damage. Fireblast's DoT does not hit in the center area of the ring and whether people like to think about it this way or not it is a problem, and it's hurting her a lot. If she actually was able to hit enemies inside the ring think about how much faster they would die.

 

WoF does deal a crazy amount of damage, but it has a target cap. Now, there is some logic as to why this is here, but hitting a little more people at the same time will help if they refuse to truly make it a toggle skill. Do keep in mind when it was a duration ability Ember could use duration to increase the total damage of WoF. Making it a true toggle will take this away and probably make everyone opt for fleeting expertise like on every other frame.

 

Really, Ember has the damage she needs, she just needs to be able to apply the damage to enemies reliably.  

[traybong111]

Use accelerant ands high or max power STR

 

It really does scale faster than anything else with power STR

 

With max strength and no regard for energy whatsoever, base damage on Fireball exceeds 1000 and Accelerant can multiply that 7 times(!)

 

However, even with 7700 Fireball she won't be oneshotting some heavy units past 50s, not to mention Arson Eximus negates fire damage, and Nullifiers will oneshot Ember with heavily modded health. But past 50 isn't DE's range of balance so I'm OK with that. 

 

I generally roll with exactly +100% power strength and 50% efficiency build (because OCD and I absolutely hated the maxed out Blind Rage) and the armor buff means I'm a lot more comfortable going into T4 30min mark than before. The only complaint I have is that World On Fire is still never used. Everything else was done right or heading in the right direction, such as Fireblast having some kind of utility, thank you so much DE. 

 

Since I don't see DE adding any utility to World On Fire I wish they'd give a bit more oomph to it besides removing target cap or duration. (Still, I won't ever stop dreaming about AoE-blast WoF... ;__;)

[Xtenz]

The new WoF behaviour is nice , especially against infected , and is pretty much the same  against others factions. ( "range" seems to matter more than "damage received from")

 

The initial burst ( when you cast WoF) is a good addition since it cost you "50 mana" the first second  it makes  sence . (It's good but i hope it's not abusable ....)

 

I'm still sad they refuse to address her real problem . ( Gives her a real toggle or a longer WoF initial  duration  !! )

 

Yes all theses changes are "good" but it's artificial it doesn't change that much tbh. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by Xtenz

[CHAIT0]

many of the bugs there fixed during this patch that came with the first one. but the issue with ember still stands, world on fire is a S#&$ty ability.

 

All her other abilities are much better now, i find my self casting fire blast as much as i used to back during the banshee release. it feels awesome. 

The small ring of fire it makes feels pointless though, id rather it propagate slower with the ring following it, or just be what it is now and do more damage in the blasting portion.

 

her 2 still feels weak for an ability that makes your other abilities do upwards of 5x more damage. it needs more "booom!" on the visual department.

 

Fireball has been embers best ability for a while, i wont complain, maybe make the little patch of fire you leave after the impact scale with range. that would be nice!

 

as for wolrd on fire, we have all been saying the awnser a billion times, the easy ember fix, make world on fire a real toggle, if you want us to consider duration on ember as much as power then make world on fire also scale with duration too, give it a lasting flame pool on the affected area, give it some sort of ramping up number of explotions similar to mesa that scales with duration.  there are many solutions to the build diversity problem than just withholding the toggle.

[Azawarau]

With max strength and no regard for energy whatsoever, base damage on Fireball exceeds 1000 and Accelerant can multiply that 7 times(!)

 

However, even with 7700 Fireball she won't be oneshotting some heavy units past 50s, not to mention Arson Eximus negates fire damage, and Nullifiers will oneshot Ember with heavily modded health. But past 50 isn't DE's range of balance so I'm OK with that. 

 

I generally roll with exactly +100% power strength and 50% efficiency build (because OCD and I absolutely hated the maxed out Blind Rage) and the armor buff means I'm a lot more comfortable going into T4 30min mark than before. The only complaint I have is that World On Fire is still never used. Everything else was done right or heading in the right direction, such as Fireblast having some kind of utility, thank you so much DE. 

 

Since I don't see DE adding any utility to World On Fire I wish they'd give a bit more oomph to it besides removing target cap or duration. (Still, I won't ever stop dreaming about AoE-blast WoF... ;__;)

Youre forgetting weapon damage there