Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[geninrising]

Ember's biggest issue was that short-duration WoF was bad.  It's no longer bad, so technically, with a specific build Ember is undeniably good now.  It's just that long-duration WoF is still bad and at this rate will never be an option.  

True short dur builds are in a close to perfect place. However one should not be forced to play a damage over tie ability in the shortest time frame possible to be rewarded for it. The only thing I truly want to see now are 3 things.

 

1. A slightly less strict LoS mechanic for FB. Currently enemies are not counted as "seen" unless they are completely visible to the check, thus if an enemy has an elbow and a leg behind an obstruction they will ignore the ring. Also if an enemy has a rise of ground covering up to a knee they will ignore the proc as well. What it should do is check for any portion of the hitbox and not the majority of it or however it currently works.

 

2. Blast proc on hit and a small aoe upon hit. IT is extremely frustrating to see this massive gout of fire envelope a target and subsequently see them continue to rush.

 

3. Either remove the duration or remove the drain over time.

[Ryjeon]

Ember's biggest issue was that short-duration WoF was bad.  It's no longer bad, so technically, with a specific build Ember is undeniably good now.  It's just that long-duration WoF is still bad and at this rate will never be an option.  

 

Pretty much this. My build is undeniably stronger. But WoF went from an ability that rewards longer durations to an ability that punishes it. Which is kind of a weird way to go about making an ability not dependent on duration. So it's a bit like the rug swept out from under our feet as far as what we were hoping for or expecting. It seems like most people that liked Ember before will like her even more, and the people that didn't like her before are still going to say she's unviable as they shamelessly display how bad they are at playing Ember. I do think this is unfortunate because I was hoping Ember would become more popular and less misunderstood. As an Ember player my gameplay experience is negatively affected by a certain player consensus believing she's useless regardless of her results.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Ryjeon

[geninrising]

Pretty much this. My build is undeniably stronger. But WoF went from an ability that rewards longer durations to an ability that punishes it. Which is kind of a weird way to go about making an ability not dependent on duration. So it's a bit like the rug swept out from under our feet as far as what we were hoping for or expecting. It seems like most people that liked Ember before will like her even more, and the people that didn't like her before are still going to say she's unviable as they shamelessly display how bad they are at playing Ember. I do think this is unfortunate because I was hoping Ember would become more popular and less misunderstood. As an Ember player my gameplay experience is negatively affected by a certain player consensus believing she's useless regardless of her results.

Oh she is by no means bad NOW, however she is still a bit lacking in overall usefulness for top tier content. She is getting much better and with a few tweaks she will be clearly end game material. Currently due to the unpredictable nature of fire blast and the prohibitive cost vs. effectiveness of WoF she is still an iffy choice of frame for said end game.

Edited January 24, 2015 by geninrising

[DireMoose]

I appreciate the fact that everyone is saying that she's better now and I fully agree. However it is by no means what I wanted. I'm gonna have to mod rather weirdly now because before I had tons of duration but now that punishes me AND if I ignore duration it's a waste of my time. I want either toggle OR timer not both. It's like trying to combine bacon and toilet paper. We  like them both individually but they just don't work as one. Also there is STILL a three target cap. WHY?! What is the point? I'd be more fine if it was a 5 target cap but come on. The targeting isn't reliable enough to get the real priorities nuked to ash soon enough at 3.

 

TL;DR Make it toggle or timer. Not both. Also increase number of max targets.

[Ryjeon]

Oh she is by no means bad NOW, however she is still a bit lacking in overall usefulness for top tier content. She is getting much better and with a few tweaks she will be clearly end game material. Currently due to the unpredictable nature of fire blast and the prohibitive cost vs. effectiveness of WoF she is still an iffy choice of frame for said end game.

 

Well, a bit lacking is quite bit more generous than completely useless. And there naturally should be discussion as to her contributions to a team in lategame scenarios. But there is still a sizable base that thinks she's only operable in under level 30 content. When really she's been perfectly effective well beyond that. It ultimately depends on what a person means by endgame. If we mean endless missions beyond level 100 enemies then other frames might be better suited to the sort of specialized approach those scenarios require though I think she can still hold her own. If we're talking about basic endless mission farming for prime parts, weapons affinity, credits, fusion cores, just going to level 70ish enemies for fun, or whatever you might find in Recruiting, then she's a great balance of aoe crowd control and self-damage buffing that can be a lot of fun to play. I think the latter sort of endgame comprises the larger part of what most long-time players are participating in as endgame. And the former is more of a specialized goal that a few players set for themselves.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Ryjeon

[shoryukensama]

Why not take that a step higher and have it tick the entire field for its current damage over its entire duration

was the ability room on fire? or world on fire? clearly realistic fire cannot burn more than 5 person at any given time. 

[Awazx]

"Ember's in a good place now."

 

DE's official response from the devstream.

 

This thread is officially useless because DE honestly believe that they made Ember good. Meanwhile Volt and even Hydroid are better than her at almost everything.

 

All is lost.

 

It's over, folks.

 

[geninrising]

 

Nah we'll just keep this thread firmly at the top till she is tweaked a bit more. DE should never rest until their clients are at least not foaming at the mouth for various reasons.

 

1. Fix Fire Blast's finnicky LoS checks.

2. Make WoF a set duration of 10 seconds with no additional cost or a true toggle. If set to a pure 10 seconds remove all target limit and make it a true aoe damage constant for all enemies that enter.

[TypeSaber]

"Ember's in a good place now."

 

You know I feel like no one at DE mains a ember. So when they did the changes they jumped on played a few level 20 infested missions and went yeah that's perfect. Ive spent months telling my friends that DE is a proper gaming company that cares about their work, but like..this is silly. Its not even like they were not going in the right direction with it. The armor, stamina, speed buff, cast speed change and fireblast changes were all good, great in fact (ignoring the 2 years it took to get there).

 

All she needed to be a top tier frame you could take to places without being asked to play something else was a bit more range on her ability's.

Or a bit more damage on her ability's,

Or no more duration reliance on her ability's.

 

I spent 12 hours yesterday running 40 wave t3 defenses just to get a handle on how she scales from easy enemies to difficult enemies. The end result, not actually bad, between Fireblast, Accelerant with a Fire/Corrosive Some Prime, I held my half of the map as the Nyx Meditated to protect the pod, thing is as the runs went on I realized something, by the time we were 20 waves into the 4th run I wasn't ulting anymore.

 

I was still using Fireball as a super long range emergency panic tool.

I was spamming the crap out of Accelerant, <3 that skill.

I was using fire-blast to position things better in-case they stopped attacking the Nyx, or were trying to attack her with the pod in the way.

 

My ult tho, just wasn't worth touching. DE, You designed this game so we know you can put thought into your frames, you designed all these beautiful toggle ults on the frames I feel you just enjoyed the concept of more.

 

Nyx's knockdown and massive damage absorb nuke.

The Mesa's Amazing DPS Turret.

Banshee locks down the world. Mirage is a DPS disco ball that can be used with natural talent to blind spam people.

Even the damn Limbo Ult, we used to scream at our friend because he maxed out the duration and range. Making it impossible to loot while in Epilepsy Land, now that he can turn it off at will its an amazing ability to take along to survivals.

 

You have an ability called World on Fire DE, actually sit down, get creative and make it amazing. I know its extra work to redesign an entire ability, to change it visually, and mechanically is a lot of effort, but haven't the ember players waited long enough to be able to see their frame as anything other then a Banshee with a poorly designed ult and infinitely less scaling damage on her gun.

 

The joke is, While I believe this will be read, while I believe you care, I know this as well as every other ember players cries of we need help will be ignored. Its understandable to your working on tons of new content to excite and amaze, you legitimately have no free time to go back and work on frames most people don't enjoy.

 

So i'm just going to end with, Thank you for the update to Ember, the changes were on the whole a massive boost from where we were. Whenever you get the chance however sometime in the future. Kindly just redesign her ultimate, make it something amazing that players are like, DAMN, what is that frame and where do I get it! and the old players are like This is amazing, im gonna take this thing to my hour long t4 survival and show off.

 

Thanks

Edited January 25, 2015 by TypeSaber

[geninrising]

You have an ability called World on Fire DE, actually sit down, get creative and make it amazing. I know its extra work to redesign an entire ability, to change it visually, and mechanically is a lot of effort, but haven't the ember players waited long enough to be able to see their frame as anything other then a Banshee with a poorly designed ult and infinitely less scaling damage on her gun.

+1

[Liberty83]

Just to add to the pile of messages.  Pre "changes" I was a long duration / High Efficiency  WoF user as it was a DPS Steroid that allowed for full movement + being able to stack with your weapon DPS.   Previously, I could cast WoF and get 19 seconds of damage as I ran around hosing things down with my Ignis.  It would cost me 25 energy and over the duration (I forma'ed to fit Energy Siphon / Corrosive Projection) and I would gain back 11.4 energy for a final cost of 13.6 energy.  It was a fire and forget power that let me boost my DPS while clearing a room and staying 100% mobile, it also let me recover my energy costs by picking up blue orbs as I'd often be casting fireball / fire blast and most importantly accelerant along the way.

 

With the recent changes to WoF it is now in a much worse place as far as her entire kit goes.  While the power itself is stronger, the interaction with the rest of her abilities really makes it lackluster.

 

First, raw energy costs I am looking at (50 + (1*19))*0.25 = 17.25 energy cost.  While this is slightly cheaper when I run Corrosive Projection, it is more expensive when running energy siphon.  However, this is not a huge difference and not really a deal breaker.   What is really breaking the gameplay is that while the power is up (doing damage in the background) and you are using the rest of your kit, you can't gain any energy back from orbs yet still attract them (and therefore waste them). 

 

As an added negative, if I was getting sapped before by something I didn't have LoS too, I could hit WoF and start to wear it down.  If I was low on energy, I'd still get 19 seconds of damage out of it.  Now, if I'm getting sapped or low on energy WoF just shuts off.

 

This power needs to keep its duration, because it is an amazing ult in the form of a damage steroid (NOT A NUKE!) but having it act like a toggle makes zero sense.  There is never (seldom) a good reason to shut this power off early as you will be constantly mobile while using it and given the mob density of the game chances are you will run into something that it will hit and before there was no reason to turn it off early as you paid your energy upfront and got your damage out of it.

 

The movement speed and stamina boost were great.  The Fire blast change is okay really, it seems more than it looks cool than anything else, I'll still likely use accelerant for my quick CC.  The damage on it is pretty laughable though. 

 

*edit* While the toggle thing is annoying, what really breaks the "ember playstyle" is shutting off your energy regeneration from siphon, spheres, etc.  I read this might be a bug, if that gets fixed things will be "okay" not amazing but certainly okay. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by Liberty83

[LisRestall]

It's futile, Devstream #45 "Ember is in a good place now".

 

They think the added proc made it all balanced now due to the added CC and DoT. They don't even realize that, let's say Radial Javelin of Excal needs much lesser energy to do much more damage than WoF in a bigger range "instantly" and with an additional stagger.

 

It's over.

[traybong111]

Pretty much this. My build is undeniably stronger. But WoF went from an ability that rewards longer durations to an ability that punishes it. Which is kind of a weird way to go about making an ability not dependent on duration. 

 

Exactly this. I'll probably tack on my maxed Transient Fortitude again just for WoF, because the initial 5-target blast is enough. Any longer than that is just a waste of energy, which makes WoF not really an ult but a slower and stronger pre-buff Fireblast :(

 

I have no idea why DE refuses to make WoF into a true toggle ability or at least double its duration. I just. What. 

[Telzen]

Ive spent months telling my friends that DE is a proper gaming company that cares about their work

 

Damn did you actually believe that?

[geninrising]

Having spent the majority of the last several days on Ember I can tell for sure that the cost associated with WoF is massively prohibitive.

Let us have a set duration or true toggle. Currently having to activate it so often is a huge burden on energy resources. And yes it has to be activated often to provide her with a viable damage amount otherwise she is just another cc bot. Eber is supposed to be a DPS caster and she merely feels like another Loki or Nyx with far less true utility.

[geninrising]

Just to add to the pile of messages.  Pre "changes" I was a long duration / High Efficiency  WoF user as it was a DPS Steroid that allowed for full movement + being able to stack with your weapon DPS.   Previously, I could cast WoF and get 19 seconds of damage as I ran around hosing things down with my Ignis.  It would cost me 25 energy and over the duration (I forma'ed to fit Energy Siphon / Corrosive Projection) and I would gain back 11.4 energy for a final cost of 13.6 energy.  It was a fire and forget power that let me boost my DPS while clearing a room and staying 100% mobile, it also let me recover my energy costs by picking up blue orbs as I'd often be casting fireball / fire blast and most importantly accelerant along the way.

 

With the recent changes to WoF it is now in a much worse place as far as her entire kit goes.  While the power itself is stronger, the interaction with the rest of her abilities really makes it lackluster.

 

First, raw energy costs I am looking at (50 + (1*19))*0.25 = 17.25 energy cost.  While this is slightly cheaper when I run Corrosive Projection, it is more expensive when running energy siphon.  However, this is not a huge difference and not really a deal breaker.   What is really breaking the gameplay is that while the power is up (doing damage in the background) and you are using the rest of your kit, you can't gain any energy back from orbs yet still attract them (and therefore waste them). 

 

As an added negative, if I was getting sapped before by something I didn't have LoS too, I could hit WoF and start to wear it down.  If I was low on energy, I'd still get 19 seconds of damage out of it.  Now, if I'm getting sapped or low on energy WoF just shuts off.

 

This power needs to keep its duration, because it is an amazing ult in the form of a damage steroid (NOT A NUKE!) but having it act like a toggle makes zero sense.  There is never (seldom) a good reason to shut this power off early as you will be constantly mobile while using it and given the mob density of the game chances are you will run into something that it will hit and before there was no reason to turn it off early as you paid your energy upfront and got your damage out of it.

 

The movement speed and stamina boost were great.  The Fire blast change is okay really, it seems more than it looks cool than anything else, I'll still likely use accelerant for my quick CC.  The damage on it is pretty laughable though. 

 

*edit* While the toggle thing is annoying, what really breaks the "ember playstyle" is shutting off your energy regeneration from siphon, spheres, etc.  I read this might be a bug, if that gets fixed things will be "okay" not amazing but certainly okay. 

The only reason I could see for a toggle is if it had some last hurrah that occurred at the end like Mirage otherwise it's worthless in the current iteration. In fact I avoid using it entirely still.

[RealPandemonium]

It's futile, Devstream #45 "Ember is in a good place now".

 

They think the added proc made it all balanced now due to the added CC and DoT. They don't even realize that, let's say Radial Javelin of Excal needs much lesser energy to do much more damage than WoF in a bigger range "instantly" and with an additional stagger.

 

It's over.

Radial Javelin's current design is one of the biggest debacles in Warframe's design history.  The sooner such powers are abolished, the better.  

 

"Ember's in a good place now."

 

You know I feel like no one at DE mains a ember. 

DE doesn't have a good feel for what players experience, as far as I see.  They're in this weird place between casual and hardcore players that doesn't really allow them the analytical capacity to gauge how things feel vs how they would feel in an ideal (or closer to ideal) state.  It's almost like they're balancing someone else's game but they don't actually play that game very much so there's a fuzzy disconnect pervading their stewardship of the product overall.

[Rankii]

Six feet under isn't "a good place"...unless they mean it like "Ember's in a better place now", which would be accurate because the update killed her pretty soundly.

[Kruglov]

Six feet under isn't "a good place"...unless they mean it like "Ember's in a better place now", which would be accurate because the update killed her pretty soundly.

 

You owe me a new monitor because mine is covered in saliva and cherry soda now.

 

Good work.

[Azawarau]

Radial Javelin's current design is one of the biggest debacles in Warframe's design history.  The sooner such powers are abolished, the better. 

I miss the old javelin

 

It couldve been fixed...

[LisRestall]

DE doesn't have a good feel for what players experience, as far as I see.  They're in this weird place between casual and hardcore players that doesn't really allow them the analytical capacity to gauge how things feel vs how they would feel in an ideal (or closer to ideal) state.  It's almost like they're balancing someone else's game but they don't actually play that game very much so there's a fuzzy disconnect pervading their stewardship of the product overall.

This is what I always thought too.

[geninrising]

I miss the old javelin

 

It couldve been fixed...

I miss lining up a ton of enemies to watch them scatter like flies.

[(PSN)SilverKarasu]

Fun Idea:

 

Switch Fireblast and WoF.

 

Here's how it works:

 - '3' becomes WoF. We call it Fireblast. Clearly it's not going to get to ult worthy levels so make it the '3' and do whatever with it.

 

 - '4' becomes Fireblast. We call it WoF. This is where it gets interesting.

    - First make Fireblast affect and damage enemies inside the ring.

    - Next we're keeping the duration+toggle thing. HOLD ON I'M NOT DONE! This skill becomes a two cast optional skill. First cast cost 50 energy.

        - Creates a damaging ring of fire and a flame wall but the ring and flame wall aren't moving.

        - The Flame wall acts as a Corpus laser gate. You try and go through it you get knocked down, and like a grineer gate you get a status (in this case a burn).

 

At this point your thinking, cool. Nice defensive/sustain damage skill there. But not really ult material. And where's this toggle?

        - During the skill if cast again, Ember begins to extent the flame wall WITH THE RING FOLLOWING IT(yea that's right) at a rate of 10% of the range per 10 energy on a cancel toggle.

 

Now that sounds like a fun ult and a true World on Fire xD

Edited January 25, 2015 by (PS4)SilverKarasu

[Azawarau]

Anyone who says WoFs damage isnt good is doing something very wrong

 

Its costly and theres a mod conflict still but the damage has always been there

[geninrising]

Anyone who says WoFs damage isnt good is doing something very wrong

 

Its costly and theres a mod conflict still but the damage has always been there

It's not that the damage is bad by any means. It's that the cost/effectiveness ratio is skewed. In addition it's one of the only abilities in game that duration will cost you more energy, discounting mirage's ult due to the bonus factor of hitting 20 targets in up to 100m(measured through use of multiple synoid gamacores on Pluto, Cerberus all aligned along the left hand side of the map;longest side) radius and the added bonus effect upon cancellation of the ult, which warrants increased energy cost.

 

Additionally WITHOUT the use of accelerant the damage falls off quite fast in later content thus guaranteeing that accelerant must constantly be used as both a cc tool and damage boost in order to maintain effectiveness.

Edited January 25, 2015 by geninrising