Who's Excited For Difficult 8 Man Raids?

[ROXXXY]

Lag lag lag 400 ping. I don't think my modem can handle this.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Everyone says they want challenge, but won't give any true suggestions other than nerfing powers/weapons.

Because otherwise, that nerfing will happen in game--see Nullifiers, new Infested, and the Eximi. For there to be challenge, there has to be limits to what one is capable of. Challenge should push you closer and closer to those limits. In this game, however, we have no limits. Our assault rifles one-shot everything and our abilities clear maps with no downsides and little energy cost.

This game only challenges us by preventing us from using our abilities. That's terrible progression, but it's necessary because there is no way to challenge us otherwise. Because of this, people are annoyed as challenge comes from losing the things we have, instead of learning to use them better.

As I said in another thread, Mario teaches you to jump, then teaches you to get better at jumping, and then asks you to show you've gotten better at jumping when you hit the final levels. Warframe teaches you to one-shot enemies and spam abilities, allows you to grind for mods to achieve this but teaches you nothing, and then takes those one-shot weapons away and prevents those abilities from being used. That's bad progression, because how can we progress from being gods? You can't, so Warframe simply takes all that away and leaves you as a normal man.

If you want challenge, nerfs will have to come. Without a limit to our power, the only way to beat us will be to take that power away in frustrating, unavoidable ways.

Edited January 26, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

-snip-

Instead of nerfing, bring them up to our level of "OP"

Edited January 26, 2015 by (PS4)kiddplay13

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Instead of nerfing, bring them up to our level of "OP"

That's what they're doing. They're still not there, but OP enemies is only frustrating. Ever run into 4+ Toxic Healer Ancients at once? Or two Seekers shooting at once? Or Hellions knockdown-locking you in a hallway over and over? How about getting your energy removed by 5 or 6 parasitic eximi?

What you're asking for is for the game to be even more of a mess challenge-wise than it is now-- a situation where luck is the deciding factor. Seekers keep missing? Toxic Ancients keep not proccing? Parasites not spawning? Game is easy, downright boring. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do but die.

People are horrified by nerfs even though they see what's being caused by our power level. But no, let's buff the enemies more and keep our extremely powerful skills and weapons the way they are. That's done a great job of causing more problems than it's solved.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

That's what they're doing. They're still not there, but OP enemies is only frustrating. Ever run into 4+ Toxic Healer Ancients at once? Or two Seekers shooting at once? Or Hellions knockdown-locking you in a hallway over and over? How about getting your energy removed by 5 or 6 parasitic eximi?

What you're asking for is for the game to be even more of a mess challenge-wise than it is now-- a situation where luck is the deciding factor. Seekers keep missing? Toxic Ancients keep not proccing? Parasites not spawning? Game is easy, downright boring. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do but die.

People are horrified by nerfs even though they see what's being caused by our power level. But no, let's buff the enemies more and keep our extremely powerful skills and weapons the way they are. That's done a great job of causing more problems than it's solved.

Sounds more like of skill then "Unfairness" with the weapons at our disposal, the only problem is skill. Take for instance the People who can't make it one hour in T4 Surv and blame the enemies, but look right at the Leaderboards and see someone went 3x farther than them. One thing i highly dislike is excuses. People go 3 Hours, 100 Waves, get a Cryotic Score of 10000 and yet people still cry "It's too hard". All you need is a strategy that works and the game is still easy. Look at the people who say Dark Souls is unfair, then look at someone right next to them who speedruns with basic gear.

Edited January 26, 2015 by (PS4)kiddplay13

[Cerenax]

I hope they come up with some solution to all the lag this would cause, like getting an alternative to the drop system and reducing the number of rooms in the maps.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

I hope they come up with some solution to all the lag this would cause, like getting an alternative to the drop system and reducing the number of rooms in the maps.

Now a raid would be terrible with linear paths, i think that just like the Relays, DE will have to buy servers.

[Cerenax]

How are we going to filter out players that don't have the skills to actually help the squad on such missions when the squads are so freaking huge though?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Sounds more like of skill then "Unfairness" with the weapons at our disposal, the only problem is skill. Take for instance the People who can't make it one hour in T4 Surv and blame the enemies, but look right at the Leaderboards and see someone went 3x farther than them. One thing i highly dislike is excuses. People go 3 Hours, 100 Waves, get a Cryotic Score of 10000 and yet people still cry "It's too hard". All you need is a strategy that works and the game is still easy.

You completely missed the point, so badly in fact you agreed with me. This game is easy because there is no way to challenge us without taking things away from us. In Defense and Excavation all you need is Limbo or Frost and 4X CP, in Survival just the CP. Then just ROFL stomp enemies up til 40 or 50 minutes with your guns, and then switch to doing it with your abilities until you get bored.

So DE designs enemies to take away our abilities and scales them until the guns don't matter, because that's the only thing that can possibly slow us down. All the progression and modding becomes pointless, because it's too powerful otherwise. When these elements don't happen or barely happen (like with our PS4 T4S) there is no challenge. When they do happen the challenge renders everything we've worked towards pointless.

So once again we need limits, because right now we have none. Without limits there is no challenge.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

How are we going to filter out players that don't have the skills to actually help the squad on such missions when the squads are so freaking huge though?

Recruiting Channel?

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

You completely missed the point, so badly in fact you agreed with me. This game is easy because there is no way to challenge us without taking things away from us. In Defense and Excavation all you need is Limbo or Frost and 4X CP, in Survival just the CP. Then just ROFL stomp enemies up til 40 or 50 minutes with your guns, and then switch to doing it with your abilities until you get bored.

So DE designs enemies to take away our abilities and scales them until the guns don't matter, because that's the only thing that can possibly slow us down. All the progression and modding becomes pointless, because it's too powerful otherwise. When these elements don't happen or barely happen (like with our PS4 T4S) there is no challenge. When they do happen the challenge renders everything we've worked towards pointless.

So once again we need limits, because right now we have none. Without limits there is no challenge.

Well considering the fact your point was on both sides (You said the enemies are unfair, then you say the games easy) it's kind of hard to see which side your on. But my point still satnds any game is rather "Easy" unless you develop a proper skill an strategy(Hence why some find Dark Souls hard, while others can steamroll it). 

[Cerenax]

Recruiting Channel?

 

Recruiting channel is the whole problem. If noobs try to pigback on squads to try and be carried though these harder missions and you end up with no way to complete them because there are too many piggybackers how are you gonna spot out who got skills and who's pulling down the squad among all those players?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Well considering the fact your point was on both sides (You said the enemies are unfair, then you say the games easy) it's kind of hard to see which side your on. But my point still satnds any game is rather "Easy" unless you develop a proper skill an strategy(Hence why some find Dark Souls hard, while others can steamroll it).

Let me try starting again then. Most of the time, the game is very easy. We have no limits, and enemies are just affinity numbers that appear on screen when we nuke them away. There is no way to challenge us given the abilities we have and the weapons we have.

So DE just takes them away. Whether it be through stacking ancient effects or Nullifier bubbles, DE creates situations where everything we have used and modded and strategized around simply don't work. This completely defeats the point of progression, and makes the game less fun.

That's why we need some items nerfed. Once we start putting limits on our stuff, DE will actually be able to design a challenge around what we can do. But when we can do everything, DE can only challenge us by rendering everything we've done pointless.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Recruiting channel is the whole problem. If noobs try to pigback on squads to try and be carried though these harder missions and you end up with no way to complete them because there are too many piggybackers how are you gonna spot out who got skills and who's pulling down the squad among all those players?

Point system that shows the amount of points you have from completed previous Raids. Of course the first few runs will be hectic, but it will eventually sort it self out. example: LF Trinity with 45+ Raid Points, doing Void Rift

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Let me try starting again then. Most of the time, the game is very easy. We have no limits, and enemies are just affinity numbers that appear on screen when we nuke them away. There is no way to challenge us given the abilities we have and the weapons we have.

So DE just takes them away. Whether it be through stacking ancient effects or Nullifier bubbles, DE creates situations where everything we have used and modded and strategized around simply don't work. This completely defeats the point of progression, and makes the game less fun.

That's why we need some items nerfed. Once we start putting limits on our stuff, DE will actually be able to design a challenge around what we can do. But when we can do everything, DE can only challenge us by rendering everything we've done pointless.

Even with the "Unfair" Nullifers, people on PC still go 3 hours in T4 Survival, 100 Waves, etc. Once again, a true player adapts.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Even with the "Unfair" Nullifers, people on PC still go 3 hours in T4 Survival, 100 Waves, etc. Once again, a true player adapts.

They "adapt" by throwing away the weapons and frames they like. Liked bows? Too bad. Liked caster frames? Too bad. Also, according to a post I saw in the fan zone, five people--four in one squad, have managed to go over 3 hours over the entire past week.

Anyway, the point isn't that "people can do it". People can play through 500 levels of Pac-Man, but the devs didn't design the game around that. The point is that these things don't push players to progress their skills, because there's no skill required to playing as a god. They only serve to take away the things people have, because that's the only form of challenge in this game.

[Cerenax]

Even with the "Unfair" Nullifers, people on PC still go 3 hours in T4 Survival, 100 Waves, etc. Once again, a true player adapts.

 

They just use weapons that are OP against the Nullifiers like the Synoid Gammacor and the Quanta while they continue to camp and spam their abilities, there is nothing glamorous about that.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

They just use weapons that are OP against the Nullifiers like the Synoid Gammacor and the Quanta while they continue to camp and spam their abilities, there is nothing glamorous about that.

And people in Dark Souls just roll the entire the time, not glamorous either. What you guys are failing to realize is that every game, does this not just Warframe. Cod Zombies does it, Dark Souls, Warframe, and basically any other game with endless modes. In ANY endless mode, it becomes less about the actual game and more strategy just take a look at literally ANY game that offers Endless modes. That's what you're failing to realize, that you lack the skill and strategy, no one is to blame but yourself. I used to think going 30 Round on Zombies was hard, now that I developed a system, it's a breeze. Same thing applies to Dark Souls and Warframe. ADAPT and come up with new ways. This is why nerfing is useless in almost every game, people will always ADAPT.

 

When T4 Survival was first introduced, going 1 hour was God-Tier, now players steamroll it because they have ADAPTED to the challenge, this isn't Power Creep, this is Human Progression. I played DCUO a while back and there was a boss which was super hard with even the best gear, now i just recently saw a video of the Rid Group beating it with super weak gear (And no, no glitches or exploites were used). Those players ADAPTED and beat it, just like we did.

Edited January 26, 2015 by (PS4)kiddplay13

[DJ_Redwire]

The thing about using Science where people(DE) are concerned is...people do not always perform exactly the same way as they have previously. In fact people are known to go above and beyond your expectations in rare circumstances. So what you claim is knowledge is in effect actually EXPECTATION and therefore by definition NOT knowledge but an idea on the matter without real substance until proven or disproved. Argue all you want to but facts are facts gentlemen.

In case you could not tell, I am big on definitions.

At best you didn't comprehend my post, at worst you didn't read it. And keyword: rare. Do you know what word means? I do - in which case you help to prove my point. Lastly, please quote where I used the word "knowledge" or any of it's synonyms, because I never even touched the subject. Edited January 26, 2015 by DJ_Redwire

[ROXXXY]

If only i had faith in de's ability to generate actual challenging content.

Overtake?

I mean it was easy if you had the right Warframes but if you had a team of Oberons and no team or shield restore yeaaaa............

[NocturneOfSolace]

I just wanted to get a little feedback from the community regarding DE's statement that 8 man raids will be exceedingly difficult and require great teamwork to complete them.

 

I for one am ECSTATIC! 

 

In a game that I feel should have a high skill cap, the content is often trivialized through various means, be it ability spam or camping in one way or another. I honestly cannot wait.

 

Several concerns have been expressed within the following posts.

 

Difficulty- Surprisingly people here seem to welcome true skill based difficulty barring shallow attempts at pseudo difficulty such as unavoidable damage attacks

 

Ability Spam- There has thus far been several statements that Abilities will allow us to trivialize the Raid content, we can only hope that DE addresses this in a more creative way than nullifiers.

 

Stability- This appears to be a major concern for many involved here and should be a major focus.

 

 

Edited to include concerns of Stability, Pseudo Difficulty, Ability spam trivializing the combat

Considering that DE has yet to fix warframe dropping people from FOUR man squads...

I have a bad feeling

[Cubewano]

Overtake?

I mean it was easy if you had the right Warframes but if you had a team of Oberons and no team or shield restore yeaaaa............

not entirely sure what you are trying to say here? are you saying it can be challenging? or it isn't....? i'm lost. 

[Feallike]

 wasted opportunity(archwing).

 

HEY HEY HEY! ARCHWING IS BASICALLY IN 0.1 STAGE! GIVE IT A BREAK! >:O

 

 

Though what i hope for is boss raids. >:D I want to murderer a giant robotic Greneer vor that has 5 ogrises on each hand. Ignises for nipples, and Gammacores for eyes... YES!

[geninrising]

DJ_Redwire 

 

 

The knowledge comment was in response to the support you provide to SofeSNBR's idea when I remarked about the fact that he stated he knows it will not be difficult simply because he knows what DE has done in the past.

 

The rest of my comment was directed at your ASSUMPTION of how things will turn out. The fact of the matter is that any prediction involving humans is just as likely to turn out completely different from what you predict.

 

The reason I used RARE is to emphasize the going above and beyond your expectations, which in no way might I add supports your claim at all. It simply emphasizes the fact that it could be far better than you ever thought.

 

My entire initial opposition to either of your comments is because neither of you have any information to the contrary of DE's stated goal of "Extremely difficult, and some will not be able to complete it".

Edited January 26, 2015 by geninrising

[Zaniux]

I hope they come up with some solution to all the lag this would cause, like getting an alternative to the drop system and reducing the number of rooms in the maps.

 

Lag, that is my biggest concern. I don´t want to play with a headless frame and with no weapons/skills.