Balance In The Game: Prevent The Pleb

[willowy_]

So i was running Sechura and i found a mastery 0 Rhino Prime with the boltor prime and i got to thinking about how you should have actually had to play the game some before you can get some of the best gear in it

 

When people get top tier gear so early on in the game its bad for everyone, people who have worked long and hard to get their stuff feel like they are just wasting time, when a noob sees it they are encouraged to buy the gear as well, and the noob who got the gear is affected the most, they no longer want to explore new weapon options or even try to play the game in new ways.

 

For example, when i got the boltor prime (at rank 12) i was so happy because i had farmed for it for at least a month. But on about the 3rd mission i used it on i saw a rank 1 using it with almost the exact same results i had.

 

So how is this fixable?

The first step of this is unavoidable, and its mastery locking things. The reason for this is pretty much self explanatory

Some optional things are

-making it so you have to have gotten a weapon to at least lvl 15 before you can use its prime version

-making it so prime and syndicate weapons stats are better depending on mastery 

If things like this dont happen then there would have to be a lot of balancing

[Vargras]

Mastery lock is bypassed if you purchase something via platinum/actual cash.

[VioDuskar]

dont worry, they burn out quick and leave.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

 That noob would have to have shelled out cold hard cash, right? Gets what he payed for. Probably will blow through content and ultimately be detrimental or suboptimal to the overall experience, in the long run. You could take that as solace.

[Halser]

I'm not sure what makes people think Rhino Prime/Boltor Prime destroys the sense of progression for the player that buys it, or worse, for other players.

 

Back when I started playing I was lucky enough to get a Stalker to pop up on Mars. He glitched on a wall and I killed him after emptying all my ammo on him. He dropped a Despair, probably the second best weapon in the game at the time, behind only the Acrid.

 

That didn't kill my progression at all, because I still needed to grind all kinds of mods and level them up. Since I was enjoying the experience, I decided to get other frames and other weapons, because one frame and one weapon, no matter how good, cannot effectively deal with every situation.

 

Boltor Prime may be the actual meta best weapon of the game, but many people don't use it all the time. Rhino Prime is only really good for the star chart, and even then, by Ceres your Iron Skin will be vanishing pretty fast.

[AlphaSierraMike]

Was he a genuine rank 0, like not enough exp to rank up, or did he just not bothered to do the rank up test? I'm going to assume the latter because he's on bloody Sechura, unless someone taxied him there. To this day I have no idea how unlocking nodes via taxing works, so I might be wrong.

 

There's a difference because rank 0 doesn't mean he barely scratched the surface when it comes to the content of Warframe, maybe he missed out on a few like D Nikana that's mastery locked, but it doesn't mean he skipped 98% of the content and went straight for the easy button, also you need to be rank 2 to trade, so there's that, he couldn't have used plat to trade those parts.

 

Maybe check his weapon usage before judging....

 

Besides that, yeah seeing a bunch of rhinos running around does rustle my jimmies a little.

Edited January 27, 2015 by AlphaSierraMike

[geninrising]

IMO players like that will leave. They experience the best the game has to offer WITHOUT going through the mastery fodder first, they then feel like what they bought is not up to their standards for the BEST a game should provide and they leave. This ruins the actual idea of primes to a point. Primes are supposed to be the APEX version of whatever weapon/frame they represent so without going through the regular versions it is not really possible to have a good grasp of the appreciable differences between normal variants and their prime counterparts.

 

Agreed on MR locking for all Prime gears. The only way to bypass it should be Prime access.

Additionally let me add that I think all prime gear should be MR locked behind the weapons available that are MR locked currently.

This would promote progression and promote players actually testing more gear to see what they actually like about WF. Also this would allow players to get a grasp of the actual mechanics of other weapons and a bit of foreknowledge regarding their teams weapon choices and their capabilities.

 

All in all MR locking is a positive idea for promoting progression in WF and although many will cry out against this I say to you, how else will we promote progression with our current system of Taxi'ing players to anywhere they want to go, and how will we cope with the ever increasing habit of paying players that are new ending up in t4 content without the necessary skills or mods to keep up?

 

All in all MR locking is GOOD but players don't want to have to do what they don't want to do regardless of the benefits, and so this is a moot point.

[ThePredicament]

When people get top tier gear so early on in the game its bad for everyone, people who have worked long and hard to get their stuff feel like they are just wasting time

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. Only petty noob players would get butthurt about things like these. People who worked "long and hard" appreciate what they have because they know Boltor/Rhino Prime ISN'T worth crying about and the weapons that are, are pretty much well taken care of with taters and formas. Getting top gear weapon is only a small fraction of performance, skill using the weapon still needs to be formed (leading, reload cancels, etc) and then maximizing, which can easily take five to seven weapon lifetimes. At that point, a newbie flaunting his maximized (or way into being) "top tier" weapon shouldn't even be looked down upon like some undeserving scumbag, they know what they are doing, so what?

 

90% is skill. You saw a Rank 1 use the weapon and receive the same results? You either lack skill or the person has good skill. Sorry to say it but it's true. A person with a high WF skill should be able to do MUCH better even with crappier weapons (I'm living proof of this). Weapons don't automatically dispense auto kill ability, newbies aren't accustomed to weapons handling/timing and that's where everything counts.

 

Secondly, frames top tier? There aren't any Prime frames (or tradeable frames) that can absolutely outperform frames you can't farm on planets. They aren't buying into some super frame that can do much better than any of the other frames (Except for Nyx because Nyx). It doesn't matter AT ALL.

 

 

So how is this fixable?

The first step of this is unavoidable, and its mastery locking things. The reason for this is pretty much self explanatory

Some optional things are

-making it so you have to have gotten a weapon to at least lvl 15 before you can use its prime version

-making it so prime and syndicate weapons stats are better depending on mastery 

If things like this dont happen then there would have to be a lot of balancing

 

So limit available options? I agree that weapons need mastery rank but it's not as easy as you think it is.

[Rikkagin]

You can Taxi players to places but they have to unlock the node themselves, I honestly had Sechura open by Rank 5, It was really easy to get to and generally Sechura is really easy to do if you have enough dps, regardless of mastery. 

I don't quite understand what you're complaining about. If the "noob" has good gear there shouldn't be a problem. Or are you just mad that someone found an easier/faster way to get gear that you think is high-tier? :\

Also the highest mastery rank restrictions are lifted at 8 and there are people that don't care about mastery so wouldn't even bother getting the original of a primed gun.

[ThePresident777]

The easy way to fix this is make the game pay to play.  Those players buying stuff keep the game free to play.

 

The problem of burning out once they realize they have the best and the rest is obsolete is solved by:

1)  Content needs Purpose

2)  There needs to be a Maximum Objective Fitness Rating for each Purpose

3)  Content needs to be Objectively Fit For Purpose

4)  Content needs a progression path along it's Purpose.

5)  All Content needs to be able to Progress to the Maximum Fitness for it's Purpose.

 

Obsolescence in Warframe is particularly bad because no one is going to spend convenience money on obsolete weapons.  No one will invest in obsolete weapons.  Obsolete weapons are just mastery fodder.  Mastery fodder has the same purpose as a D&D xp system but costs a hell of a lot more to produce and destroys investment.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/364980-expensivemasteryfodderframe-forumriotframe-arbitrarydeveloperdecisionsframe-nerf-it-all-down-to-the-mk-1-ground/'>Weapon Tier Potatoes is the idea I proposed to end weapon Obsolescence.  Basically, each Weapon Tier Potatoe put into a weapon bumps it up into the next weapon tier.  I also proposed Sniping game play so sniper rifles have a purpose that doesn't involve big footing shotguns.

Edited January 27, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Cobalt313]

When I see people with low Mastery wielding prime gear, my reaction is less "Insolent commoner I worked hours to get that!!" and more "Haha sucker you actually spent money on that".

[Mozzo]

You do know that guy is supporting the game more then you really are dont? The great thing about this game is people can just play the game and get 99% of the stuff in it or pay for it and support what i see as one of the best game companies out there. Wow so this thread must be from the past as the rhino prime access was almost a year past... sounds strange, either way i dont care that much. What i find annoying is the certain rise of the brat player that cant let people just have their stuff and want to exclude or limit people on MR. If it wasnt for founders and early players this game wouldnt be here (bought with real money) show some respect and control when saying things please.

[Razzburiez]

You can Taxi players to places but they have to unlock the node themselves, I honestly had Sechura open by Rank 5, It was really easy to get to and generally Sechura is really easy to do if you have enough dps, regardless of mastery. 

I don't quite understand what you're complaining about. If the "noob" has good gear there shouldn't be a problem. Or are you just mad that someone found an easier/faster way to get gear that you think is high-tier? :\

Also the highest mastery rank restrictions are lifted at 8 and there are people that don't care about mastery so wouldn't even bother getting the original of a primed gun.

This kid doesn't get it does he? The issue is you got a taxi to a high level mission and kept it unlocked instead of doing it yourself, you piggy-backed off someone else, and you kept the rewards! You didn't work to get any of it and you got high teir weapons at the beginning of the game so you have no reason at all to continue and get more weapons and play this wonderful game DE has worked so hard on.

[Razzburiez]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Only petty noob players would get butthurt about things like these. People who worked "long and hard" appreciate what they have because they know Boltor/Rhino Prime ISN'T worth crying about and the weapons that are, are pretty much well taken care of with taters and formas. Getting top gear weapon is only a small fraction of performance, skill using the weapon still needs to be formed (leading, reload cancels, etc) and then maximizing, which can easily take five to seven weapon lifetimes. At that point, a newbie flaunting his maximized (or way into being) "top tier" weapon shouldn't even be looked down upon like some undeserving scumbag, they know what they are doing, so what?

 

90% is skill. You saw a Rank 1 use the weapon and receive the same results? You either lack skill or the person has good skill. Sorry to say it but it's true. A person with a high WF skill should be able to do MUCH better even with crappier weapons (I'm living proof of this). Weapons don't automatically dispense auto kill ability, newbies aren't accustomed to weapons handling/timing and that's where everything counts.

 

Secondly, frames top tier? There aren't any Prime frames (or tradeable frames) that can absolutely outperform frames you can't farm on planets. They aren't buying into some super frame that can do much better than any of the other frames (Except for Nyx because Nyx). It doesn't matter AT ALL.

 

 

 

So limit available options? I agree that weapons need mastery rank but it's not as easy as you think it is.

You sicken me

[willowy_]

You do know that guy is supporting the game more then you really are dont? The great thing about this game is people can just play the game and get 99% of the stuff in it or pay for it and support what i see as one of the best game companies out there. Wow so this thread must be from the past as the rhino prime access was almost a year past... sounds strange, either way i dont care that much. What i find annoying is the certain rise of the brat player that cant let people just have their stuff and want to exclude or limit people on MR. If it wasnt for founders and early players this game wouldnt be here (bought with real money) show some respect and control when saying things please.

I'm not sure you really know what I meant by this post, I wasn't trying to attack founders in any way. What I meant by saying noobs are buying good gear instead of earning it was that they were getting plat and trading for the parts, because prime access and plat purchases are a good way to help DE grow, what im saying is that there should be a system for moderating what people who basically just started playing the game can and can't have. Top tier gear should not be obtainable without effort of some kind. And Rhino Prime was just an example not the only warframe with this problem

[ThePredicament]

When I said we were getting the same results I was implying that the noob who bought the weapons parts had also probably traded for the mods and found a mod setup off of youtube. And also I wasn't trying to limit options, I was just saying some of my ideas on the topic, not trying to lay anything in concrete.

 

Mod set up? Really? So that maxed Serration, Heavy Cal, Split Chamber, Hellfire, Stormbringer, Infected Clip, Cryo Rounds, and Shred can fit in a noobs UNFORMA'D gun? Face it, if an unforma'd gun that's in newb hands is doing better or equivalent against an experienced player's tatered/forma'd gun, the last thing you need to worry about is how and when they got that gun and actually worry about the skill that you should have acquired and tempered to mean much more than equipment. Also, was talking to the other guy.

 

For the last part, it IS limiting options, for better or for worse, there's no other way to cut it. The argument about people leaving because they have god tier guns which would lead to no room for growth and/or boredom enough to quit the game? It's stupid because it could be said about the other side of the coin. Having weak guns can put people off enough to quit. This game isn't catered to one person's lifestyle, some people work all the time, and this "no effort" thing you are talking about? The effort is the money they made to buy plats, it may not be easy to see but it's there.

[willowy_]

Mod set up? Really? So that maxed Serration, Heavy Cal, Split Chamber, Hellfire, Stormbringer, Infected Clip, Cryo Rounds, and Shred can fit in a noobs UNFORMA'D gun? Face it, if an unforma'd gun that's in newb hands is doing better or equivalent against an experienced player's tatered/forma'd gun, the last thing you need to worry about is how and when they got that gun and actually worry about the skill that you should have acquired and tempered to mean much more than equipment. Also, was talking to the other guy.

 

For the last part, it IS limiting options, for better or for worse, there's no other way to cut it. The argument about people leaving because they have god tier guns which would lead to no room for growth and/or boredom enough to quit the game? It's stupid because it could be said about the other side of the coin. Having weak guns can put people off enough to quit. This game isn't catered to one person's lifestyle, some people work all the time, and this "no effort" thing you are talking about? The effort is the money they made to buy plats, it may not be easy to see but it's there.

I knew you were talking to the other guy, i was just trying to clear things up at parts you didn't understand (clearly didn't help considering you are just repeating yourself). Besides, boltor p and rhino p were just examples, not the only thing new players tend to gravitate towards. Also the fact that you think I formaed the boltor p practically makes me laugh, I know you think im stupid(with the great reason of me saying i was unhappy when i worked for something and someone else just bought there way to it) but really? You didn't even know if i formaed the boltor p or not and you automatically assumed I did? It's becoming obvious your posting more out of stubbornness rather then giving constructive criticism, because you can't accept that people may have a different viewpoint then you. I agree with Razzburiez about you.

[Mozzo]

I'm not sure you really know what I meant by this post, I wasn't trying to attack founders in any way. What I meant by saying noobs are buying good gear instead of earning it was that they were getting plat and trading for the parts, because prime access and plat purchases are a good way to help DE grow, what im saying is that there should be a system for moderating what people who basically just started playing the game can and can't have. Top tier gear should not be obtainable without effort of some kind. And Rhino Prime was just an example not the only warframe with this problem

Why because you feel it cheapens when you get it ingame without buying it? Thats more your feelings on it and we shouldnt base rules on peoples feelings. They want to spend money on it let them NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS... do you understand what i just typed cause you need too. The only thing you should be concerned with Tenno is the mission and not being a burden to the team. If any thing there are two things i would be concerned about and that is people fleecing people in the market by over pricing gear (this game is pretty good on not having prices be to high which is nice) #2 would be this thing on TIERS of weapons as it brings the wrong type of peopel to the game. A gun should be gun sure some can be better but it should be mroe based on skill of the player and dedication but its not rigth now.

 

If i sound like a jerk thats usually why i dont post in threads i dont like but ive seen to many of these threads of exclusion and other crap people need to not care about and just feel like you need to nip it in the bud... goodday fellow tenno

[ThePredicament]

Actually, whatever.

Edited January 29, 2015 by TheLocalHentai

[DrPapaPenguin]

As one of the scrubs who threw plat at the game when he started, I don't really understand the issue. How exactly does entitlement get into this? Why are the grinders more entitled than cash spenders? And what's with the "we limit you for your own good" mentality? First of all, many people don't have the time to grind the stuff, myself included. Hell, I bought Nyx/Nova prime, as well as Mirage, Zephyr and Mesa, not to mention a small mountain of potatoes. If I chose to grind for them, I'd still be at it today (and I started over a year ago). Second, do I feel like the game is not worth playing any more now that I got the best stuff that I can have? Hell no, I just skipped the worst part of any f2p game, the power curve. Now I can actually have fun playing with the proper guns instead of the starter and mid-curve garbage. I wouldn't even want to touch that stuff with a barge pole. That's the reason I'm not going near the Archwing, I don't want to go through the curve from nothing to powerhouse once again.

 

And third, in a financial sense, this suggestion makes none. "Spend time or spend money" is the cornerstone of f2p, not "spend time, then money". If you can't afford something, then grind, if someone can afford something and doesn't mind paying don't get your ego in a knot. That player has exactly the same entitlement as you.

[willowy_]

As one of the scrubs who threw plat at the game when he started, I don't really understand the issue. How exactly does entitlement get into this? Why are the grinders more entitled than cash spenders? And what's with the "we limit you for your own good" mentality? First of all, many people don't have the time to grind the stuff, myself included. Hell, I bought Nyx/Nova prime, as well as Mirage, Zephyr and Mesa, not to mention a small mountain of potatoes. If I chose to grind for them, I'd still be at it today (and I started over a year ago). Second, do I feel like the game is not worth playing any more now that I got the best stuff that I can have? Hell no, I just skipped the worst part of any f2p game, the power curve. Now I can actually have fun playing with the proper guns instead of the starter and mid-curve garbage. I wouldn't even want to touch that stuff with a barge pole. That's the reason I'm not going near the Archwing, I don't want to go through the curve from nothing to powerhouse once again.

 

And third, in a financial sense, this suggestion makes none. "Spend time or spend money" is the cornerstone of f2p, not "spend time, then money". If you can't afford something, then grind, if someone can afford something and doesn't mind paying don't get your ego in a knot. That player has exactly the same entitlement as you.

The problem isn't as much about people who buy things and keep going in the game and try new things, its more about people who buy high tier gear at the start and either never try any other gear while neglecting mastery or just drop the game. I understand not having the time to grind for things and for that ive skipped some items as a whole. Buying plat and prime access are great ways to support DE it's just people are missing out on key features of the game like mastery progression because they can buy top tier stuff and never need to do anything else, where as if you do chose to try new things, then your actually experiencing the game at its fullest. It's people who dont chose to try new things in the game that are the problem.

[DrPapaPenguin]

The problem isn't as much about people who buy things and keep going in the game and try new things, its more about people who buy high tier gear at the start and either never try any other gear while neglecting mastery or just drop the game. I understand not having the time to grind for things and for that ive skipped some items as a whole. Buying plat and prime access are great ways to support DE it's just people are missing out on key features of the game like mastery progression because they can buy top tier stuff and never need to do anything else, where as if you do chose to try new things, then your actually experiencing the game at its fullest. It's people who dont chose to try new things in the game that are the problem.

Not choosing new things hurts no one. Not to mention that there is no incentive to try the garbage weapons. Mastery rank is nothing but a gating system preventing you from getting the best toys, simple as that. If progression was the key feature of the game, it would be an absolutely horrible game, because the progression is horrible. Some of the lower end weapons are irredeemable even with a catalyst, and that thing costs plat. Add to that time to build the things, add to that time to farm the resources, add to that farming the mods and fusion cores to power them. You are looking at dozens of hours just to get out of the cesspit.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be playing this game if beating the progression curve was not possible. I truly like Warframe, I really do, but getting to the top is (or was, since it was some time ago) that bad. If a part of the game is bad, I don't want a full experience, I want the fun experience.

I have 2 ways of looking at this. The optimistic way says that people who spent money will be more reluctant to quit than those who didn't. And the fact is, you need obscene amounts of money to actually get everything from the get go - the weapons are only half way to success, you need to buy mods (and the player market will skin you alive for some of them), you need to buy fusion cores for them, and you need actual credits to pay for the fusion. They will still have a lot of catching up to do, let them at least have a shortcut.

The pessimistic way says that if they paid, they can quit all they like, since the DE received the money. It's not a nice thing to say, but it's true, if they paid 20 euro and quit 15 minutes later, they did more for the game than someone who played for free for a month. I'm not saying that f2players are moochers or that they are useless, they populate the game, they spread word about the game, they make up the community, but the money helps the game much more.

I guess there is also a third way to look at it: let the players have a choice, and let the players decide for themselves. No one stands in front of them with a gun forcing them to buy their way through the progression. Maybe they don't even want the progression, maybe they hate that part. I daresay that's the whole point of a F2P model, you mire someone in a grind, and then dangle a carrot with a price sticker in front of them. If they are willing to pay, don't put walls in front of them. It doesn't hurt other players, it helps the game, and those who like the progression may very well decide to go through with it. Taking away someone's choice in the name of improving their experience is objectively a terrible idea. Edited January 30, 2015 by DrPapaPenguin

[XBlackLotusX]

So i was running Sechura and i found a mastery 0 Rhino Prime with the boltor prime and i got to thinking about how you should have actually had to play the game some before you can get some of the best gear in it

 

When people get top tier gear so early on in the game its bad for everyone, people who have worked long and hard to get their stuff feel like they are just wasting time, when a noob sees it they are encouraged to buy the gear as well, and the noob who got the gear is affected the most, they no longer want to explore new weapon options or even try to play the game in new ways.

 

For example, when i got the boltor prime (at rank 12) i was so happy because i had farmed for it for at least a month. But on about the 3rd mission i used it on i saw a rank 1 using it with almost the exact same results i had.

 

So how is this fixable?

The first step of this is unavoidable, and its mastery locking things. The reason for this is pretty much self explanatory

Some optional things are

-making it so you have to have gotten a weapon to at least lvl 15 before you can use its prime version

-making it so prime and syndicate weapons stats are better depending on mastery 

If things like this dont happen then there would have to be a lot of balancing

mastery rank 0 + rhino prime top line

 

anyone who thinks about this for any length of time can come to the idea this player did play the game for this stuff because he is RANK 0 you cannot trade at rank 0 you cannot buy a prime frame from the market he did play the game for this if you said mastery rank 2 thats a diferent story i agree with this thread on some level but your example falls through :|

[lostvirtue]

Who cares if he has a boltor prime at rank 0. It's all about the modding that really matters in any weapon. When I started this game, I fell in love with the Paris bow. I did everything to maximize damage out put. I 3x forma the weapon, got a potato and the best mods to do the job. I played in void missions in which my normal Paris did more damage than a Paris prime. Point being, skill isn't reflected with the weapon you own.

[lostvirtue]

As one of the scrubs who threw plat at the game when he started, I don't really understand the issue. How exactly does entitlement get into this? Why are the grinders more entitled than cash spenders? And what's with the "we limit you for your own good" mentality? First of all, many people don't have the time to grind the stuff, myself included. Hell, I bought Nyx/Nova prime, as well as Mirage, Zephyr and Mesa, not to mention a small mountain of potatoes. If I chose to grind for them, I'd still be at it today (and I started over a year ago). Second, do I feel like the game is not worth playing any more now that I got the best stuff that I can have? Hell no, I just skipped the worst part of any f2p game, the power curve. Now I can actually have fun playing with the proper guns instead of the starter and mid-curve garbage. I wouldn't even want to touch that stuff with a barge pole. That's the reason I'm not going near the Archwing, I don't want to go through the curve from nothing to powerhouse once again.

And third, in a financial sense, this suggestion makes none. "Spend time or spend money" is the cornerstone of f2p, not "spend time, then money". If you can't afford something, then grind, if someone can afford something and doesn't mind paying don't get your ego in a knot. That player has exactly the same entitlement as you.