ThePredicament Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yep, Equilibrium is a corner stone of Neks play. One of my builds has Despoil slotted too and now with Terrify being able to recast, it is a lot more useful than it was prebuff. Before the recast buff for Terrify, I was always used a negative duration to keep Shadows and Terrify casting more frequent, they both end up at around 25 seconds with a R4 Fleet, which is perfect amount of time. The buff basically opened up a whole lot of other builds and it's absolutely amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)His 1st Shadow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Good thing you aren't a game designer (inb4butbutiam) because you are wrong and you don't play Neks, simple as that. And the actual funny thing is, Shadow poorer AI is based off balancing, that's great right? I have never ever heard anyone ever complain about this, ever. If a Neks player is running out of summons (even special ones), they are just not killing enough. Instead of using incompatible weapons and mashing 3, play correctly and this will never ever be a problem. If you are taking it as a personal attack, that's on you to get butthurt. I claim you don't know how to play as Neks because I'm great with Neks, maybe even one of the best, and every complaint you've made has never affected my performance to outperform everybody else on the team. If you actually did, you wouldn't complaining about them at all. You ignorantly put up biases against Shadows that aren't even that significant. Aside from AI all of these complaints are either uselessly situational, due to poor gameplay style, and basically just user error. -Do you really need to summon Shadows (or use any ult) at the start of any match? -Yeah, if you aren't killing anything. If you aren't then you are playing this game wrong. Shadows isn't a crutch and was never meant to be a crutch. -Inconsistent dependability? Shadows soak damage, that used to scale 1:1 with current enemy waves but now it's 2:1. Damage ults fall off at mid levels and those that don't, have target limits and then fall off. -Like I said, AI does need tweaks but DE knows why it can't be buffed to enemy levels, especially on a 2:1 power ratio, and I agree with them too. -Least amount of damage/defense, really? Does the word scaling not mean anything to you? At high enough levels every Shadow round shot will OUTDAMAGE a tick of a damage ult and every enemy will have a higher EHP than any defense skill. Again, exaggerating without even properly thinking of what is implied and opinion based off poor timing skills. Hyperboles isn't going to get you anywhere and it's definitely just making your point look like whining rather than an actual well formed complaint. And your opinion is better than his because? Spoiler: It's not. I've never read so much nonsense that litterally never hit a single point. Your accusation of other players being inferior to you when they've consistently hit objective points while you claim everything is cool because you outperformed other players you've played with exposes your cluelessness. I can outperform people using only a gun. But to you that means My frame and it's abilities are balanced. Lol I can care less what you've heard nor who you've played with. And your use of the term "butthurt" only explains your name and what YOU are into. Doesn't bother me, Nerds are harmless. Lol Nekros is quite limited and DE agrees which is why he's been under review and receiving buffs. If you disagree that he does, go argue with them. Let them know that he shouldn't be buffed because you feel you're great Nekros player. Its quite relevant. I've learned that arguing with an ignorant one can only make two. Therefore I won't. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Nekros is quite limited and DE agrees which is why he's been under review and receiving buffs. And buffs he did receive. Now he is a good meat shield summoner, team reviver/healer, ammo provider and occasionally provides debuff. He can also solo missions. Probably a little harder to play than "pressing 4 to win" but I think he's in a good spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)His 1st Shadow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) And buffs he did receive. Now he is a good meat shield summoner, team reviver/healer, ammo provider and occasionally provides debuff. He can also solo missions. Probably a little harder to play than "pressing 4 to win" but I think he's in a good spot. My issues with him still stand. They buffed the damage and health of his shadows but completely overlooked enemy type.If you enter a match and are facing an ancient, tar moa, eximus etc and all you've killed is a crawler, you only summon a crawler. Issue. Secondly, if you've killed a 1000 enemies and your last 10 kills were crawlers and your facing ancients,tar moas, eximus you still summon crawlers. Issue. Because a crawler with buffed health and damage =/= tar moas, ancients, exams etc. (gunners, bombards Nullifiers for void. Same issue) Suggestions: So what I am getting at is there should be a way to either consistently summon strong enemy types if you've killed them. Out of 10 summons, at least 4-5 should always be shadows of the strongest enemies you've killed and their level should be the only thing that's based off your recent kills. Or If the shadow cache limit remains then the durations should be removed and the ability should be a Toggle. The result is that your shadows last as long as they have health or you're ready to deactivate the ability allowing to end it at will. Edited January 30, 2015 by (XB1)His 1st Shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoticMarik Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 My issues with him still stand. They buffed the damage and health of his shadows but completely overlooked enemy type. If you enter a match and are facing an ancient, tar moa, eximus etc and all you've killed is a crawler, you only summon a crawler. Issue. Secondly, if you've killed a 1000 enemies and your last 10 kills were crawlers and your facing ancients,tar moas, eximus you still summon crawlers. Issue. Because a crawler with buffed health and damage =/= tar moas, ancients, exams etc. (gunners, bombards Nullifiers for void. Same issue) Suggestions: So what I am getting at is there should be a way to either consistently summon strong enemy types if you've killed them. Out of 10 summons, at least 4-5 should always be shadows of the strongest enemies you've killed and their level should be the only thing that's based off your recent kills. Or If the shadow cache limit remains then the durations should be removed and the ability should be a Toggle. The result is that your shadows last as long as they have health or you're ready to deactivate the ability allowing to end it at will. And this is only part of the reason that I'd personally(as a person who's fav and most played frame is Nekros)would like to see an overall rework, or at least buffs similiar to what you suggested towards the end. His ult is unreliable and underwhelming. Its not about pressing 4 to win. Its about making Nekros a hell of alot more fun, and useful for things besides being a desecrate spamming loot *@##$ for the rest of your team. He's the only frame in the game that could be made to manipulate units on the battlefield, and we should be fighting for that. Not sending a message to DE that the little bit they did is just fine, and watch as he sits in a corner untouched for another year or more. His name implies that he should be something of a minion master. He isnt. The only part of his names implications that carries over to his actual character is an ult that cant always be used, has varying degree's of effectivness, and doesnt even last beyond 72 sec at max(I believe thats the number). His other skills are also rather lackluster(tho the buffs have improved them. Specifically Terrify), and devoid of synergy with each other or his concept. Thats why I keep stating my view on removing desecrate in favor of a supportive skill. Something that would help keep his minions going, and buff other players/companions. There are plenty of great ideas on alternatives. One big step towards making Nekros better would be allowing his minions to survive until killed. I wouldnt even be against changing his shadows to static summons that you would get everytime you cast instead of it being based on what you've killed(tho that is a fun concept). If changed to something static they could act as mini boss units allied to Nekros and his allies with varying roles and unique models. I would like them to keep it as is in terms of summoning dead enemies, but this idea is just an alternative suggestion to improving his ult overall. The root cause of his lacklusterness and his problems fall on desecrate however, and no matter whats altered until that skill is reworked he will never be anything more than a bland farming tool. A character that can at times literally feel like a job instead of a badass alternative way to kick &#! in warframe. Its disheartening to me that more people arent asking for more radical changes to Nekros, and are instead seemingly willing to settle for small quality of life buffs that dont address his main issues. This frame isnt half as fun as he could be, and his skills arent even half as good as other frames. Hell even his terrify is worse than the Kubrows version. He needs alot more work, but I am grateful for the small buffs he's recieved thus far. I'm just not satisfied yet, and none of us should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 The root cause of his lacklusterness and his problems fall on desecrate however, and no matter whats altered until that skill is reworked he will never be anything more than a bland farming tool. On that note, Trinity is a bland healer, Nova/Banshee is a bland CC/damage booster, Frost is only used to spam 3, Mesa is only a bland turret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietcanary Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I want to stop you right there. It has nothing to do with working around with anything. This is Warframe, players kill waves of enemies with a single bullet (Ala Braton P splitting), having a reserve of 100, hell even 100000000 will not do anything, players will technically shelve LOWER level enemies since summons will pick from recent kills rather than the earliest ones. Killing after summoning is not unheard of, especially for those that have higher than baseline duration. Target selecting is also not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Shadows are expendable, just like weapons in Halo, you use them and adapt to what they can do rather than trying to rely on picks to win the match. It's still in your (or your teams) hands to do actual work. Skill level is also relevant with the proper utilization and timing of skills. Like Limbo, Neks has a higher skill ceiling than most frames due to having to create "turf" and proper placement of Shadows. For example, in Void defense, summoning Shadows offset from the objective will likely end up with more favorable results rather than summoning in the middle. Total reliance on them is what makes capacity, clutter, and most of the other complaints an actuality but can be avoided easily with proper skill use. Also, vanilla Disarm is terrible by itself without high amounts of CP. In places where it counts, high level, void, survival/defense, enemies will have extremely high armor, aggressive swarm behavior, and the same amount of aggro against players and objectives. They are basically armor scaling Infested, they don't become push overs like they do with Chaos even with the aug mod. Frankly this is alot of bluster and smoke. -Nobody kills waves with a single bullet even if there is some random exploit with Braton P which iv never heard of. Don't use tall tales as counter arguments. -Youre right that it would shelve lower level enemies if it were infinite soul cap but that's better to me than running out after 2 casts. We can probably both agree if the cap were somewhere near 75-100 neither would be a problem though. -Killing enough to fill a cast while supporting with desicrate (which is a major problem with desiccated so don't hate on that playstyle) is hard and it was my point that then being picky on top of that is even harder. Yes that is a work around, but it shouldn't be as difficult as it is to play a little more strategically. -That's not how I remember halo. It was usually a race to the sword/sniper/hammer/ rocket launcher and then several minutes of avoiding that guy. -yes nekros is harder. Not really for that reason but sure. -having said that^ you didon't really make a point about how it's nearly 0 problem for good players. It's still a limit that has good players playing worse and bad players playing badly. It limits souls to being a panic button of sorts instead of decent area control or reliable aggro bait. I don't really agree that your example makes a signifigant difference but that's just a opinion either way. -vanilla anything isn't very good. Doesn't make Disarm at max any less of a amazing skill. Probably top 5 in game. Debatably. -slow, less varied, a little less strong infested perhaps. Still alot better than 5 napalm, heavy machine gun, or rocket launcher welding heavys. With the addition of just about any cc or skillfull use of decoy it becomes a pretty easy fight. If you wanna debate this particular point further send it via pm to avoid derailment plz -what is cp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePredicament Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 -snip- Wow man and still NOTHING but absolutely exaggerated complaints were given. My whole point was you were blowing it out of proportion and complaining about a skill that YOU were using poorly. Especially when "entering a match and killing only a crawler" is your argument. Absolute failure. Frankly this is alot of bluster and smoke. -Nobody kills waves with a single bullet even if there is some random exploit with Braton P which iv never heard of. Don't use tall tales as counter arguments. -Youre right that it would shelve lower level enemies if it were infinite soul cap but that's better to me than running out after 2 casts. We can probably both agree if the cap were somewhere near 75-100 neither would be a problem though. -Killing enough to fill a cast while supporting with desicrate (which is a major problem with desiccated so don't hate on that playstyle) is hard and it was my point that then being picky on top of that is even harder. Yes that is a work around, but it shouldn't be as difficult as it is to play a little more strategically. -That's not how I remember halo. It was usually a race to the sword/sniper/hammer/ rocket launcher and then several minutes of avoiding that guy. -yes nekros is harder. Not really for that reason but sure. -having said that^ you didon't really make a point about how it's nearly 0 problem for good players. It's still a limit that has good players playing worse and bad players playing badly. It limits souls to being a panic button of sorts instead of decent area control or reliable aggro bait. I don't really agree that your example makes a signifigant difference but that's just a opinion either way. -vanilla anything isn't very good. Doesn't make Disarm at max any less of a amazing skill. Probably top 5 in game. Debatably. -slow, less varied, a little less strong infested perhaps. Still alot better than 5 napalm, heavy machine gun, or rocket launcher welding heavys. With the addition of just about any cc or skillfull use of decoy it becomes a pretty easy fight. If you wanna debate this particular point further send it via pm to avoid derailment plz -what is cp? -Punch through is a legend now? Braton Prime for Nekros is one of the best choices because of splitting. Shooting a couple of rounds will likely hit and split tons of enemies in a lot (if not most) situations. -Seriously, who runs out of Shadows after two casts? Do you sit there, cast it, stand still/hide until the expire, recast until the cap is used? This is such an overblown and awful argument. -Killing being hard because of needing to endlessly spam 3 is a player problem. And again (and again), something that skill and proper set up can easily take care of. Braton P, splitting bodies, a couple presses of 3, that's it. -Completely missed the point of Halo having throw away weapons and even then Swords, Hammers, were still throw away. -Skill ceiling is doesn't mean difficulty. -Apparently thinking strategically is now an opinion. You think Cat is a nuke with Limbo too? You speak of strategy but can't even understand that the skill needs strategy to use properly. -Less strong infested? Armor is one of the reason that MAKES higher level gaming hard (hence 3-4cp). Corrupted can one hit kill at 30 and they run just as fast with high armor. Vanilla anything isn't good? Chaos is vanilla as they come and it's not even an ult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoticMarik Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) On that note, Trinity is a bland healer, Nova/Banshee is a bland CC/damage booster, Frost is only used to spam 3, Mesa is only a bland turret. I want to first put up front that I havent actually played any of the frames you listed outside Mesa, so I can only go on so much in reguards to the others. However with that said there is a major difference. Speaking in reguards to mesa. Using her ult is fun. Its entertaining. Its not exactly creative or engaging, but its fun. It generally doesnt last so long that you can get away with doing nothing else, but it doenst really drain so fast that you cant enjoy the show, and its pretty effective. As far as I can tell with the other frames you listed they get to be engaged and do things besides sitting around spamming the same ability, and outside of the rare frost that neglects the objective in a deffense mission, or the super rare Trinity that does nothing I've never seen anyone actually start yelling at any of those frames when they arent using one of those specific abilities. The same cant always be said with Nekros. I've been in missions with players who only wanted me to spam 3, so to the best of my ability(despite my disgust with it)I did. I did literally nothing so long as the game let me use 3. Can you guess how much fun that 30 mins was for me? When one of them went down and I was the only player near I tossed out a Terrify and an army of shadows to cover me while I got them back up. This was literally the first time I did anything but use desecrate. What I got in return was 2 players(including the downed one)literally *@##$ing at me because I stopped using Desecrate for 6 secs to rez one of them when no one else was near. Following that the 3rd player went on to comment about how he hadnt noticed I was even playing Nekros because he didnt think I was spamming 3 enough. This is an extreme case to be sure, but this shouldnt even happen, and its not the only time I've had it happen to me, or seen some other poor Nekros player get a pile of upset teammates on top of him for not spamming to there standards. Nekros is first and formost expected to your loot bot. The reason other characters are more than just a cc bot, or a healing bot is because they have time in between to run and gun. Nekros doenst get to do that. He has to sit still and spam because bodies dont always drop something on the first try, or the 2nd, or even the 3rd. By the time you're done spamming a pile of bodies your team has built another pile, so you do it all again. The other huge reason its different is because its not fun. It seriously borders on being a job. Spamming powerful CC or instantly full healing your team provides some satisfaction and entertainment, and because those abilities actually have cooldowns you have time to mess around until they come back up. And then depending on the situation you might not have to use them right away again. Desecrate is literally a full time job within a game if you want to be efficent with it. In the more extreme circumstances(like the story above)it also tends to create a sense of entitlement within your team. You arent there to have fun, and they tend not to care at all if you do. You're there to get them more loot, and if you arent you're trolling them. Then we come to my biggest gripe with Desecrate. It is in truth nothing more than a patheticly badly designed band aid fix. You should not be able to use a skill to roll for more loot. The fact that it exists at all is concerning. If loot tables are that awful you fix them. End of story. You dont go and create an ability within the game(and then tie it to a single character to boot)that gives you another go and pretend everythings fine. Its lazy, and its an embarrassing reflection on the developer. It makes it look as if they dont care about fixing issues, but simply trying to cover them up. Shut just enough of your players up that you can get by and still pocket money. It gives me reason to worry that DE might just up and drop warframe when things take a turn rather than trying to fix it. At this point in time I dont believe thats at a high risk of happening, but when mechanics like this that I've never even seen in real cash grab games exist I cant help but be concerned. On top of everything they dont even bother to try to make it user friendly. It has to be constantly used because bodies dont always reroll. Its not a toggle, or a set it and forget it ability. Its not even a 1 time use ability. You literally have to actively spam it. So not only is the very basis of its creation awful...its implementation is awful and unfun for a player to use. Its as if they want to punish you for trying to ease the grind with the horrible mechanic they implemented. To add even more insult to injury the only thing it has that makes it even remotely fit the theme of Nekros is that it only works on the dead. You could have literally tossed this onto any frame that has vaporizing effects and it would have fit just as well. "Ember can burn her enemies dead bodies to a crisp for another chance at a rare mod!", or "Volt can vaporize them with electricity for a shocking chance at more goodies!". Also take into account that Nekros was released in September of 2013. Its going on a year and a half and they still havent fixed this ability or replaced it, or even eased its need to be spammed for the player. I love this game and all, and somehow despite all of this Nekros is still my favorite and most used frame, but thats pretty damn telling. Its no stretch for me to say this is by far the worst ability design I've ever seen in a game, and thats why I advocate so strongly for a new ability. Tho I fear my feedback and suggestions(as well as everyone elses)are falling on deaf ears. Edited February 4, 2015 by PsychoticMarik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Fen_Integrum Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 - Unusable with full energy unless you've killed 1st. - Even with 1000 kills ult is only usable 2x if each cast summons 10. 20 shadow cache Yeah, you are entirely dismissing the fact that Nekros players are rewarded through prioritizing targets. The fact that he cant instantly summon 20 random targets gives him reason to maintain a support role. What should happen then? Should he be able to cast SOTD with full energy and without kills? Should the shadows be based on...what? I find it great that his ultimate benefits from his playstyle, in that he does better with the higher powered targets that he slays, while giving him room to keep up with the support. That's not to mention how incredibly useful he can be when summoning enemies. In fact, I went up against New Loka, specifically so that I could summon ancient healers more regularly, and against every faction. Still, prioritizing targets, and picking off the most powerful slowly, while still providing support, makes Nekros incredibly useful, and none of this would happen the same, if he could cast it at will. Ive found that summoning around 15 Ancients at any level can lead to several overlapping auras, or that fighting the Grineer can lead to having an army of Hellions raining down missiles from the sky, or that having an army of Shockwave MOAs will lead to the most amazing CC that you could dream of. I dont get it. Why do people think Nekros is not as useful? He is King, so long as you play him well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoticMarik Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Yeah, you are entirely dismissing the fact that Nekros players are rewarded through prioritizing targets. The fact that he cant instantly summon 20 random targets gives him reason to maintain a support role. What should happen then? Should he be able to cast SOTD with full energy and without kills? Should the shadows be based on...what? There a few suggestions about what could be changed in reguards to this. Such as creating dedicated Nekros specific phantoms that are always summoned, to having the soul cache remember your best killed enemies, or even to just having the soul cache remember your last summoned group. This would allow you to always have at least something available. Besides that I'm really not sure what kind of supportive role you're talking about. Terrify and soul punch are at best decent CC, and this could count for support aside from the fact that Terrify makes enemies sprint away so they arent easy shots, and soul punch can do anything from make an enemy flop over to sending them clear across the room. Neither are particularly reliable, and terrify can even make things harder for everyone. Desecrate is an entirely different monster I've already commented on. Even taking into account all of that his ult even if buffed to a great extent would still just be a supportive ability. Meat shields that draw agro and return varying amounts of damage. Even if they didnt expire the dps would still amount to far less than any frames. So were not talking about striping Nekros of a supportive role here, but greatly adding to it. I find it great that his ultimate benefits from his playstyle, in that he does better with the higher powered targets that he slays, while giving him room to keep up with the support. That's not to mention how incredibly useful he can be when summoning enemies. In fact, I went up against New Loka, specifically so that I could summon ancient healers more regularly, and against every faction. Still, prioritizing targets, and picking off the most powerful slowly, while still providing support, makes Nekros incredibly useful, and none of this would happen the same, if he could cast it at will. Ive found that summoning around 15 Ancients at any level can lead to several overlapping auras, or that fighting the Grineer can lead to having an army of Hellions raining down missiles from the sky, or that having an army of Shockwave MOAs will lead to the most amazing CC that you could dream of. The problem is that picking off specific targets only isnt as effective as simply killing as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible. Particularly in survival and deffense. This game is too fast paced for a Nekros to just sit around only killing big targets and never killing cannon fodder enemies. I'd much rather summon a moderate to weak set of phantoms but have killed everything in sight then to spend the time avoiding the weak targets to try to make a payoff of only power units. This might be a different story if the phantoms could be reused, or survived until they were actually killed, but as it stands they can only last 30-72ish seconds. Its not at all worth the effort. Not even close. Especially considering they arent really good for anything other than taking some agro. Even if they did address a part of this issue by allowing the phantoms to stay without expiring the way the soul cache works right now actually encourages a Nekros player to avoid killing enemies that arent powerful on there own. Which makes literally no sense in a game about killing hordes of enemies. The only varying playstyles this allows for are playing the normal route of killing everything in sight as quickly as possible, or gimping yourself and your team by only going for bigger targets. This gets increasingly less viable the higher the enemies lvls become, and it creates a chore out of the ult because you have to kill less to make it payoff more. I dont get it. Why do people think Nekros is not as useful? He is King, so long as you play him well. I wish he was a King, but as it stands he excels at nothing and posses an ult that technically gets weaker if you carelessly kill everyone. Which is exactly what the games about. He has to work much much harder than just about any other frame to do the things they can all do without any effort at all in comparison. I'm not asking for a press 4 to win Nekros, but he's painfully underwhelming overall. Edited January 31, 2015 by PsychoticMarik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letir Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Why should i spend my time with "prioritazing", when i can just cast Chaos and make all enemies in radius fight each over again and again? Just why??? Edited January 31, 2015 by letir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 That's actually brilliant. I imagine you run with a full vacuum carrier as well? Not to take anything away form that guy but I'm pretty sure that's the intended purpose of the mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Why should i spend my time with "prioritazing", when i can just cast Chaos and make all enemies in radius fight each over again and again? Just why??? Because your Chaosed enemies don't heal you, don't give you your own Nullifier bubble, don't give you shield. Also they do little damage to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feallike Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) 1.) Yes now he basically has a AOE Nyx mind control with augment. Pretty good. 2.) If you just play Nekros for desecrate then you probably don't go long in T4. 3.) Nekros still doesn't have a endgame Ult but its good enough and scales well. I would say hes probably one of the best supports because of desecrate and SOTD. I would still bring nyx over him for better CC, but Desecrate and SOTD make him more valuable then nyx. All in all, i think hes one of the best frames since his buff, and is more valuable then some of the usual endgame frames. Bombard with 600 health x5 is 3000 health, it does 1000 damage at level 30 so that would be a wopping 5000 damage good enough to oneshot most enemies in T4S and in a AOE Nullifiers also are basically portable frosts with great damage. I would say if you build Nekros for just SOTD your doing it wrong, but building him for both SOTD and Desecrate then your probably one of the most valuable frames for any T4 mission. The one thing that would make him one of the best CC frame would to be idk.. Make power strength effect how many enemies he can spawn!!! DE PLZ!! Edited January 31, 2015 by Feallike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)His 1st Shadow Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Wow man and still NOTHING but absolutely exaggerated complaints were given. My whole point was you were blowing it out of proportion and complaining about a skill that YOU were using poorly. Especially when "entering a match and killing only a crawler" is your argument. Absolute failure. I'm sorry. I'm having an intelligent and objective discussion about Nekros abilities. This doesn't include you. You've more than proven you inability to grasp what that even means. But please, continue to be the expert of people you've never played with. Your irrelevant and baseless judgement is invaluable. Yeah, you are entirely dismissing the fact that Nekros players are rewarded through prioritizing targets. The fact that he cant instantly summon 20 random targets gives him reason to maintain a support role. What should happen then? Should he be able to cast SOTD with full energy and without kills? Should the shadows be based on...what? I find it great that his ultimate benefits from his playstyle, in that he does better with the higher powered targets that he slays, while giving him room to keep up with the support. That's not to mention how incredibly useful he can be when summoning enemies. In fact, I went up against New Loka, specifically so that I could summon ancient healers more regularly, and against every faction. Still, prioritizing targets, and picking off the most powerful slowly, while still providing support, makes Nekros incredibly useful, and none of this would happen the same, if he could cast it at will. Ive found that summoning around 15 Ancients at any level can lead to several overlapping auras, or that fighting the Grineer can lead to having an army of Hellions raining down missiles from the sky, or that having an army of Shockwave MOAs will lead to the most amazing CC that you could dream of. I dont get it. Why do people think Nekros is not as useful? He is King, so long as you play him well. Cool, you can summon ancients..... If invaded by new Loka...... If you're the one to kill them...... Which allows you to summon them.....Once... Temporarily.. hopefully at a good time... Hopefully they benefit you....Before your teammates kill everything.... This possible situation that could sometimes maybe happen proves how awesome SotD is. I have NO IDEA why I said this ability wasn't dependable, wasn't consistently effective and restricted far beyond all other abilities that are always usable. What was I thinking? Any team would love to have a Nekros supporting them by not killing and waiting for "Key" targets. And hey, it's their own fault if they kill your targets first and waste your time. This is his true and ULTIMATE playstyle. He gets stronger for killing high priority targets... Of course for a one time temporary use. But hey, what was I complaining about? I apologize if I dismissed this playstyle. I have been overreacting. I now wonder why anyone would think Nekros is purely for desecrate. P.S. Please excuse my sarcasm. It's not you but earlier posts that lead to this. I've already posted the issues and my suggestions. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feallike Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Cool, you can summon ancients..... If invaded by new Loka...... If you're the one to kill them...... Which allows you to summon them.....Once... Temporarily.. hopefully at a good time... Hopefully they benefit you....Before your teammates kill everything.... This possible situation that could sometimes maybe happen proves how awesome SotD is. I have NO IDEA why I said this ability wasn't dependable, wasn't consistently effective and restricted far beyond all other abilities that are always usable. What was I thinking? Any team would love to have a Nekros supporting them by not killing and waiting for "Key" targets. And hey, it's their own fault if they kill your targets first and waste your time. This is his true and ULTIMATE playstyle. He gets stronger for killing high priority targets... Of course for a one time temporary use. But hey, what was I complaining about? I apologize if I dismissed this playstyle. I have been overreacting. I now wonder why anyone would think Nekros is purely for desecrate. P.S. Please excuse my sarcasm. It's not you but earlier posts that lead to this. I've already posted the issues and my suggestions. Cheers! You don't understand his role! Hes not a nuke, hes a CC. He is suppose to prioritize targets. That is his role as a frame. You can still kill all the targets if you want, but if you want the best results you can try killing the most powerful targets. You aren't hurt for killing the weaker enemies, so why should you not kill them? You need to understand his role and not treat him like you would Nova or Mirage. :/ Edited January 31, 2015 by Feallike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)His 1st Shadow Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) You don't understand his role! Hes not a nuke, hes a CC. He is suppose to prioritize targets. That is his role as a frame. You can still kill all the targets if you want, but if you want the best results you can try killing the most powerful targets. You aren't hurt for killing the weaker enemies, so why should you not kill them? You need to understand his role and not treat him like you would Nova or Mirage. :/ I don't understand his role you say? And then you go on to call him a CC. Irony. Carefully point out where I attempted to treat him like Nova and/or Mirage and I'll definitely own up to it. My discussion, issues and suggestion all revolved around SotD. Not a single issue have you addressed nor my suggestion have you discussed. I'm cool with agreeing or disagreeing. But not at all addressing what's been said and claiming someone that a person has never played with is "playing him wrong" is just not worth responding to. Is this how the warframe community is or Internet forum types in general? The "learn2play" mentality is ill fated. Edited January 31, 2015 by (XB1)His 1st Shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 He gets stronger for killing high priority targets... Of course for a one time temporary use. Well after 30min mark in T3/T4 survival, Bombards, Moas, Ancients and Heavy Gunners are everywhere. As long as you can kill them, you won't have trouble killing "only" high priority targets. Which is why I run Vectis with my Nekros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)His 1st Shadow Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Well after 30min mark in T3/T4 survival, Bombards, Moas, Ancients and Heavy Gunners are everywhere. As long as you can kill them, you won't have trouble killing "only" high priority targets. Which is why I run Vectis with my Nekros. ........ Btw, is it that you agree or disagree with the suggestions? In fact never mind. If the point hasn't been made yet it best not to go in circles. So let's Summarize: So far I've stated that DE has buffed shadow health and damage(good) but I stated they overlooked the importance of shadow type. (Gunner, ancient, bombard, etc.) So I suggested 1 of 2 things happen. A. Once we kill strong enemy types, they're always summoned as 4 or so out of 10 shadows and their level is the ONLY thing based on recent kills. No cache limit after killing enough to fill out max summons. Or B. They keep cache limit but remove duration and make the ability a toggle, so once we summon strong shadow types they last as long as they have health or we end ability at will. Why? Because I realized that the type of shadows you summon makes the ability good and it's important. And the response I got was, "you don't understand, killing certain enemy types makes the ability good." I quit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Fen_Integrum Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Why should i spend my time with "prioritazing", when i can just cast Chaos and make all enemies in radius fight each over again and again? Just why??? I wish he was a King, but as it stands he excels at nothing and posses an ult that technically gets weaker if you carelessly kill everyone. Which is exactly what the games about. He has to work much much harder than just about any other frame to do the things they can all do without any effort at all in comparison. I'm not asking for a press 4 to win Nekros, but he's painfully underwhelming overall. You are trying to make Nekros play the role of someone else. He is meant for support, and he is not meant to be killing nonstop. He is meant to Desecrate, Terrify, and knockdown targets with Soul Punch, providing support for friends. If one is playing the role correctly, and not the role of a killing machine, then *prioritizing targets wouldn't be a problem for you. Of course, if you are trying to play Nekros like Nyx, then you will obviously have problems. If you are trying to play him like Rhino, you will have problems. If you are trying to play him like Volt, you will have problems. But...if you play him like Nekros, you will get a lot further. Edited January 31, 2015 by (PS4)Fenrushak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoticMarik Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) You are trying to make Nekros play the role of someone else. He is meant for support, and he is not meant to be killing nonstop. He is meant to Desecrate, Terrify, and knockdown targets with Soul Punch, providing support for friends. If one is playing the role correctly, and not the role of a killing machine, then *prioritizing targets wouldn't be a problem for you. Of course, if you are trying to play Nekros like Nyx, then you will obviously have problems. If you are trying to play him like Rhino, you will have problems. If you are trying to play him like Volt, you will have problems. But...if you play him like Nekros, you will get a lot further. I'm getting the impression you didnt even read my entire post. As I address exactly why he isnt much of a support frame. And exactly why prioritizing targets for his ult isnt viable. He's considered a support frame only because of desecrate. His soul punch and terrify are not good cc support abilities. Soul punch has varying degrees of success, and terrify almost works against you because everyone clears the room so fast it actually makes them harder targets. They need to change the run to a cower for this to be a real support CC ability. Otherwise its just a panic button. Playing Nekros like Nekros amounts to spamming 3. Thats the sole reason he's considered a support, and its the primary thing anyone who see's a Nekros expects you to do. His "support" abilities have nothing on the other supportive frames in this game. Who can consistently heal allies or use CC that actually reliably assists with kills. Oberon supports better and has more firepower. Hell his 1 is literally a blatantly better version of soul punch. Even Rhino's stomp makes him a better support because the targets are all helpless. Like shooting fish in a barrel. Volts a better support because his 1 has crazy huge range and will always stun multiple enemies. It's also cheap and therefore spammable. It also happens to do more damage than Nekros "support" abilities do. I'll say it again. I want Nekros to be a support frame and not another super killing machine like ash or Mesa, but his only function of support right now is Desecrate. Terrify is a panic button used mainly to rez other players, and the time it takes to use soul punch(and its weak payoff)could be better spent "supporting" your team by just shooting the enemy dead. They need to rework it into something that actually directly supports both his fellow players, their companions, and his own minions. Then change Terrifys effect on enemies into a cower and we would have some real support going on beyond just spamming 3 to "support" with more loot. It really boggles my mind that people would actually argue to keep Nekros as he is. Really dissheartening, but it helps explain some of DE's choices with the game. Edited January 31, 2015 by PsychoticMarik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 He's considered a support frame only because of desecrate. And what's wrong with that? Desecrate is a great skill. Provides ammo, health, oxygen and loot. His other abilities support his core ability Desecrate. You know, just like Mesa's 2 and 3 supports her 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raital Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 And what's wrong with that? Desecrate is a great skill. Provides ammo, health, oxygen and loot. His other abilities support his core ability Desecrate. You know, just like Mesa's 2 and 3 supports her 4. I'm confused now. If desecrate is his core ability, why did you nerf his core ability so badly with your build in the OP? If desecrate is supposed to be his core ability and defining feature, you would want something like stretch, overextended, despoil, vitality, natural talent and whatever else. Then you can take him to an endless survival that has a trinity and a couple other useful frames, find a cubby hole you can't be fired at in, set up a 3 macro to repeat, and go out for dinner or something since you are now as useful as you can be to a party. Fun is pretty subjective. Some may consider the actions of the previous paragraph to be fun; after all, you get so much loot for so little effort! I, on the other hand, do not consider that fun. You may consider desecrate being his core ability fun, and that's perfectly fine as we're all entitled to our opinions. However, I don't consider being dead weight to my team unless I do the above paragraph a fun and enjoyable experience, and that is a complaint that I've seen echoed in the forums. The best way to contribute to a party as Nekros is to be a desecrate farmer. An ultimate that takes too long to cast in a game where enemies get pinpoint accuracy on stationary targets, for shadows who may or may not provide any meaningful damage/support/abilities, that has to be maximized by nerfing your, "core ability" to be of any use, is not worth the expenditure of the energy and the set-up to perform. It won't be, no matter how picky you are about not contributing to the team, because you aren't doing your job by wasting time prioritizing targets when you could be doing your part by spamming desecrate. Nekros exists to desecrate, and anything else that takes away from that is a detriment to Nekros in his role within a team. And that's a terrible role for a frame to be stuck in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoticMarik Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 And what's wrong with that? Desecrate is a great skill. Provides ammo, health, oxygen and loot. His other abilities support his core ability Desecrate. You know, just like Mesa's 2 and 3 supports her 4. I'm seriously starting to get the impression that no ones reading my posts in this topic, and considering the effort I put into them thats pretty irritating. I made a huge and long winded post about why Desecrate is a horrible ability, and here you are asking me why its a bad thing? I've already explained myself. Please go back and read my post. I really dont wanna have to quote it. I'm confused now. If desecrate is his core ability, why did you nerf his core ability so badly with your build in the OP? If desecrate is supposed to be his core ability and defining feature, you would want something like stretch, overextended, despoil, vitality, natural talent and whatever else. Then you can take him to an endless survival that has a trinity and a couple other useful frames, find a cubby hole you can't be fired at in, set up a 3 macro to repeat, and go out for dinner or something since you are now as useful as you can be to a party. Fun is pretty subjective. Some may consider the actions of the previous paragraph to be fun; after all, you get so much loot for so little effort! I, on the other hand, do not consider that fun. You may consider desecrate being his core ability fun, and that's perfectly fine as we're all entitled to our opinions. However, I don't consider being dead weight to my team unless I do the above paragraph a fun and enjoyable experience, and that is a complaint that I've seen echoed in the forums. The best way to contribute to a party as Nekros is to be a desecrate farmer. An ultimate that takes too long to cast in a game where enemies get pinpoint accuracy on stationary targets, for shadows who may or may not provide any meaningful damage/support/abilities, that has to be maximized by nerfing your, "core ability" to be of any use, is not worth the expenditure of the energy and the set-up to perform. It won't be, no matter how picky you are about not contributing to the team, because you aren't doing your job by wasting time prioritizing targets when you could be doing your part by spamming desecrate. Nekros exists to desecrate, and anything else that takes away from that is a detriment to Nekros in his role within a team. And that's a terrible role for a frame to be stuck in. Agreed completely. Tho "fun being subjective" is certainly true I find it impossible to believe that any single person could actually enjoy sitting around spamming 3 with Nekros. If thats someones definition of fun I question their sanity. Anyone who's ever played anything in warframe other than Nekros would know that being the desecrate bot is about the most unfun thing ever created for the game. I honestly cant think of anything less fun to do in any other game I've ever played. Its beyond me how anyone can argue in favor of this ability as it exists right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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