New Players Get Good Stuff Way To Early.

[PainKiller6891]

It must just be how my words are coming across in this thread. I'm really not trying to be a butt, but it seems my words are betraying me.

I hold the opinion that those players, who others have said "Quit the game because they got the best stuff right away and got bored" would have gotten bored regardless.

It's not the gear, it's the game. If they don't like the game, they wouldn't have liked it any better if they had "progressed" through it. Please. We aren't a story rich game. If players aren't having fun killing stuff, they are going to quit. That's the bottom line.

I think you got a good point that they would have left anyway. I hope not but who knows. Maybe with the ne Raid system everything will change.

[jmforeman02]

This is pretty similar to a thread I posted a while back. The thread is dead but there's a poll on it with 174 votes already logged on this issue if you want to use it.

Here's the thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/366716-high-mastery-gear/

Here's the poll: http://strawpoll.me/3199887

[Xennocide420]

Its in DE's best interests to set rank limits on equipments, it give something for people to work towards and gives better sense of reward to obtaining awesome high-level gear.

[mejulio]

I can agree with that.  I think what is being miscommunicated is that it isn't the weapons being available to early is the problem. However, since weapons and frames are our only means of progression in game, it feels disappointing when I get a super awesome weapon and every other weapon/frame feels terrible in comparison and that does hurt the play-experience of the game.

 

Now, I am all for having powerful weapons early and along side skill-based weapons/frames, but I feel that the first weapon you get shouldn't be useful after a while or there is no reason to ever switch.  If I had access to essentially overpowered weapons and frames from the beginning, then I have nothing to work towards.  I'm not a collector, I don't NEED to have every weapon or frame, so if I get the most powerful weapon too early it does ruin the experience for me.

 

 

I don't think every weapon should be locked, and many shouldn't even be touched, but the more powerful weapons (prime, clan, syndacite) should be locked so new players have something to look forward to.  Many of us who have been with the game since it was truly in beta (2012/13) still feel the sense of progression due to the new content being added.  New players don't have this luxury and I feel this only hurts Warframe as a whole.

 

 

 

TL;DR:  Having progression in warframe linked to weapons/frames and then allowing anyone to have anything they want leaves Waframe without any meaningful progression for new players.  Locking weapons (and possibly more frames) behind MR, while providing progression, will also allow some weapons to be buffed and tiered in a way that makes.

While I agree with the concept, the reality is that even with having these so-called weapons and warframes still need to leveled up get the mods. In the beginning they are weaker than the "less powerful" weapons and warframes and you can die very quickly. The real sense of progression for me is the missions because I am not a collector. I have some these prime weapons and warframe. Many of the missions on all the planets are locked for me. To assume that progression is acquiring a prime anything is a progression is not true because what good is it if you die or don't know how to mod it? You see I am considered a newb but only in this game. I play Warframe because I love it and will continue to play for a long time. I say this with respect. The newb will eventually take over the game then what maybe we won't forget what is like to be a newb.

P.S. Please stop trying to come with ideas that ma ke even harder for us newb. We can do that too, like me arcane helmet stat less even if there were build in time or increase the lvl of the void enmies.

[Bernkastal]

Patience or Platinum, and while we have things that we can buy exclusively with platinum (cosmetics), i wouldn't mind seeing something that is exclusively gotten through patience. (we've seen these with Dread and the other Assassin weapons, though if I'm not mistaken we'll see even more with incoming Raids.)

I'd like to see a slight touch-up on weapons that are a bit too mainstream. Boltor Prime could use a few ticks of damage down, maybe 3 damage at most, just to put other weapons a bit more competition. The weapons you pick should be tailored to how you personally like to play, not a single weapon so broadly used and above average at everything that it drowns out all the others.

[DrBorris]

New players should not have the best weapons. Not because it is not "fair" for veterans, but because it destroys the game. A new player only means a player that is new to the game. They are the ones who ask how mods work, what elements do, and whine when the forma a gun and it is sh!t afterwards. If someone learns the game and progresses naturally, then they should be opened to the new stuff. And no, progression =/= grind. Thus, Progression =/= MR. There needs to be a new system, one that more accurately judges player skill and knowledge of the game. How do we do this? Good question. In fact, that is the question we should be asking instead of asking for nerfs and buffs of stuff. Progression is the key for power creep and crating a lasting experience in Warframe that is not just grind. The discussions on the forums these days are just discussing the symptoms, completely ignoring the big picture that wraps up every complaint into one, Progression. Now for those saying "don't make people grind", learn how games work. You should not be given anything in a game, that would remove any point of staying with one. While the grind based semi-progression is bad, it does not warrant giving new players the keys to success on a silver platter. You should need to progress in order to gain power. There needs to be something that brings player power, enemy difficulty, story, and lore under one system. Do i know the answer to this? h3ll no, I am that crazy guy who wrote the Progression post, and completely aware that it may be faulty in every sense, but at least it is a stab at the greater issue.

 

All in all, the only way a new player should have something prime is through Prime Access. 

[flamedance58]

I never understood why Prime Warframes and Weapons aren't at least a M3 requirement. Heck the Boltor Prime is M1 req'd...that's insanely low while the Dual Ichors is not only M5 (?) AND Clan research.

 

I think they need to go through weaponry and stuff and redo what M-Rank unlocks what.

[FatalOath]

I totally agree to that. I could not care less if I got the fewest kills with my Sybaris really. I am happy with new players helping on the mission. Really I don't want to be exclusive but more balancing could help the game.

 

Sybaris is a weapon that has no polarities, it is meant as a weapon that you put many forma on to make it worthwhile to use.

New players should stick to any gun that comes with polarities installed to make efficient use of mods.

[mejulio]

New players should not have the best weapons. Not because it is not "fair" for veterans, but because it destroys the game. A new player only means a player that is new to the game. They are the ones who ask how mods work, what elements do, and whine when the forma a gun and it is sh!t afterwards. If someone learns the game and progresses naturally, then they should be opened to the new stuff. And no, progression =/= grind. Thus, Progression =/= MR. There needs to be a new system, one that more accurately judges player skill and knowledge of the game. How do we do this? Good question. In fact, that is the question we should be asking instead of asking for nerfs and buffs of stuff. Progression is the key for power creep and crating a lasting experience in Warframe that is not just grind. The discussions on the forums these days are just discussing the symptoms, completely ignoring the big picture that wraps up every complaint into one, Progression. Now for those saying "don't make people grind", learn how games work. You should not be given anything in a game, that would remove any point of staying with one. While the grind based semi-progression is bad, it does not warrant giving new players the keys to success on a silver platter. You should need to progress in order to gain power. There needs to be something that brings player power, enemy difficulty, story, and lore under one system. Do i know the answer to this? h3ll no, I am that crazy guy who wrote the Progression post, and completely aware that it may be faulty in every sense, but at least it is a stab at the greater issue.

 

All in all, the only way a new player should have something prime is through Prime Access. 

I see so progression=grind why because that's the way you did it. If some newb comes along and is able to get so-called better weapons then good for him/her but they still have to grind for resources, grind through missions. How does one learn the game by asking? That's a laugh you almost have to kiss there feet to get info or help. Leave us to grind is what makes the game a grind and having to deal with the Elite Club who don't really care about the newbs. It seems to me that you just want to keep the newbs into newbs. Progression is not just getting prime warframes and prime weapons. It's about teamwork and having respect to newbs. This is my last post on this site because I rather be a newb then snob.

[Quizel]

I agree and disagree with some of the points made within.

 

Cutting to the chase, high mastery rank is achieved (for the most part) by forcing the player to use weapons/gear that they don't want to. How is forcing players to use such things fun and better for the game? To keep these new average/typical players engaged and coming back for more? Comparing the "grind" to unlock the ultimate form/gear in various other games the player repeatedly uses setups that they chose and not forced to use (at least that's been my experience with games thus far). I fail to clearly see how forcing new players to do things they don't want to will improve their experience and want to play more and speak highly of WF.

 

With that said, I'm indifferent about how quickly the most powerful gear is obtained within Warframe. There are strong pros and cons with changing the current system.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Quizel

[Aizeol]

I see so progression=grind why because that's the way you did it. If some newb comes along and is able to get so-called better weapons then good for him/her but they still have to grind for resources, grind through missions. How does one learn the game by asking? That's a laugh you almost have to kiss there feet to get info or help. Leave us to grind is what makes the game a grind and having to deal with the Elite Club who don't really care about the newbs. It seems to me that you just want to keep the newbs into newbs. Progression is not just getting prime warframes and prime weapons. It's about teamwork and having respect to newbs. This is my last post on this site because I rather be a newb then snob.

 

Again, I feel that the point we are trying to make isn't coming across correctly.  We are not asking to have weapons and frames removed from new players.  What we are asking for is a better sense of progression.

 

 

If DE wants weapons and frames to be the main source of progression in game, then they should have that content be available in tiers.  This way, so long as you are using tier appropriate gear, the game will feel balanced throughout the entire time a player is playing.

 

If instead, the player is allowed the have access to the most powerful weapons and frames from the word "go", then they have nothing to really look forward to and the sense of progression will feel off and muddy.

 

 

Warframe already has the mechanics necessary for a "tiered system" of weapons and warframes, but I don't feel it is being used CONSISTENTLY or even CORRECTLY.  I do realize that this is my opinion, but it is an opinion I have developed and refined over the course of at least a decade and a half of playing games.

 

I do not consider myself and expert or even an authority figure.  I'm a guy playing a game, and I found something I don't like.  It doesn't mean I want to "take the fun away" and honestly arguments like that prove there isn't a good counterpoint.

[mejulio]

Oh and everybody get over the M1 weapons that a newb can obtain, obviously DE realized that in order to even grind you some good weapons. Don't say that this weapon should be a M this or that because you can't really get a very good weapon until M8. I should know because I am M7 and still a newb. Don't be jealous. So I can get good weapons but I'm still a newb. Please stop trying to "fix" something because you think it's good for the newbs. Is good for the newbs that we have to grind for credits or you cant max out your mods? I not saying we shouldn't grind at all but some of it is just impossible for newbs, not without help. We had a post that was well written but meant little and that is look at the big picture. You can't see the big picture when your in it. You have to be a newb to that so you don't qualify to see the big picture maybe you could grind some to see something or become DE.

[Aizeol]

I agree and disagree with some of the points made within.

 

Cutting to the chase, high mastery rank is achieved (for the most part) by forcing the player to use weapons/gear that they don't want to. How is forcing players to use such things fun and better for the game? To keep these new average/typical players engaged and coming back for more? Comparing the "grind" to unlock the ultimate form/gear in various other games the player repeatedly uses setups that they chose and not forced to use (at least that's been my experience with games thus far). I fail to clearly see how forcing new players to do things they don't want to will improve their experience and want to play more and speak highly of WF.

 

With that said, I'm indifferent about how quickly the most powerful gear is obtained within Warframe. There are strong pros and cons with changing the current system.

 

The point I have been trying to make is that there are too many weapons that are ignored because a better weapon is available, and somehow no one has deemed this a problem.  I agree, why on earth should I even try to get the pantera if the boltor, or boltor prime. is just objectively better?

 

That is the problem.  We aren't using other weapons because we want to, and we will stick with weapons long after we are bored with the game, because nothing else is good.

 

 

 

 

There is no endgame, because the game doesn't progress from beginning to end.  Everything is a grind, because there isn't anything to do or anywhere to go.

 

 

Having a system that allows the developer to say "this is a middle-tier weapon and isn't meant for enemies past lvl 30" would actually benefit the game.  It would allow for weapons to be developed for lower "tiers" that have interesting designs or mechanics without everyone calling it "trash" because they can't survive 45+ min in T4 survival.  That's a good thing, I promise.

 

 

It allows developers to "aim" at a certain level without fearing that it will be too Overpowered, or Underpowered.  They can better shape the progression into something that makes sense.

[jmforeman02]

I see so progression=grind why because that's the way you did it. If some newb comes along and is able to get so-called better weapons then good for him/her but they still have to grind for resources, grind through missions. How does one learn the game by asking? That's a laugh you almost have to kiss there feet to get info or help. Leave us to grind is what makes the game a grind and having to deal with the Elite Club who don't really care about the newbs. It seems to me that you just want to keep the newbs into newbs. Progression is not just getting prime warframes and prime weapons. It's about teamwork and having respect to newbs. This is my last post on this site because I rather be a newb then snob.

This is silly. You don't have to ask anyone anything. You can go to the http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki '>wiki for almost anything. If you want advice building a frame/weap go to http://warframe-builder.com/'>warframe-builder . Read, learn, try, fail, learn some more. That's how you stop being a newb. Asking everyone to make all your decisions for you is how to stay a newb. You're right that most vets don't want to be your fountain of information. They want you to learn like we did. When you do, you will be on our level and will be worthy of the best gear. That's not elitism or snobbery. That's wanting people to earn what they get. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by jmforeman02

[mejulio]

I agree and disagree with some of the points made within.

 

Cutting to the chase, high mastery rank is achieved (for the most part) by forcing the player to use weapons/gear that they don't want to. How is forcing players to use such things fun and better for the game? To keep these new average/typical players engaged and coming back for more? Comparing the "grind" to unlock the ultimate form/gear in various other games the player repeatedly uses setups that they chose and not forced to use (at least that's been my experience with games thus far). I fail to clearly see how forcing new players to do things they don't want to will improve their experience and want to play more and speak highly of WF.

 

With that said, I'm indifferent about how quickly the most powerful gear is obtained within Warframe. There are strong pros and cons with changing the current system.

Thank you for your post you must still be a newb in your heart and remember what it was like. I agree with 100%.

[Archistopheles]

if I get the most powerful weapon too early it does ruin the experience for me.

When you started, the Braton, Hek, and Gorgon were the best three guns in the game. Did it "ruin" the game for you when you got them? Of course it didn't, you're still here.

By the time Acrid power-creeped it's way into this game, you were already a vet. You can't possibly say that you would have quit if you had gotten an Acrid on your first day playing.

[jmforeman02]

Oh and everybody get over the M1 weapons that a newb can obtain, obviously DE realized that in order to even grind you some good weapons. Don't say that this weapon should be a M this or that because you can't really get a very good weapon until M8. I should know because I am M7 and still a newb. Don't be jealous. So I can get good weapons but I'm still a newb. Please stop trying to "fix" something because you think it's good for the newbs. Is good for the newbs that we have to grind for credits or you cant max out your mods? I not saying we shouldn't grind at all but some of it is just impossible for newbs, not without help. We had a post that was well written but meant little and that is look at the big picture. You can't see the big picture when your in it. You have to be a newb to that so you don't qualify to see the big picture maybe you could grind some to see something or become DE.

And seriously man there are some awesome weaps earl on. Amphis, Twin Gremlins, Hind, regular boltor, Soma (at mastery 6 and you said you were rank 7). If you can't make do with those weapons in the mid to late solar system, the problem isn't your gear. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by jmforeman02

[jmforeman02]

Oh and everybody get over the M1 weapons that a newb can obtain, obviously DE realized that in order to even grind you some good weapons. Don't say that this weapon should be a M this or that because you can't really get a very good weapon until M8. I should know because I am M7 and still a newb. Don't be jealous. So I can get good weapons but I'm still a newb. Please stop trying to "fix" something because you think it's good for the newbs. Is good for the newbs that we have to grind for credits or you cant max out your mods? I not saying we shouldn't grind at all but some of it is just impossible for newbs, not without help. We had a post that was well written but meant little and that is look at the big picture. You can't see the big picture when your in it. You have to be a newb to that so you don't qualify to see the big picture maybe you could grind some to see something or become DE.

You're 1 rank away from having access to EVERY weapon in the game and you're still calling yourself a newb. That doesn't strike you as odd? 

[Aizeol]

When you started, the Braton, Hek, and Gorgon were the best three guns in the game. Did it "ruin" the game for you when you got them? Of course it didn't, you're still here.

By the time Acrid power-creeped it's way into this game, you were already a vet. You can't possibly say that you would have quit if you had gotten an Acrid on your first day playing.

 

No, but they were the best gun while still not being game-breaking.  Back then, the progression came from actually leveling up.  Leveling mattered and didn't feel like the chore it does now.

 

The acrid wasn't stupid easy to get, although that didn't last for longer than about a week.

 

My point is, if you take Rhino prime and Boltor Prime through Venus, can you honestly tell me that it is challenging?  Do you feel like a ninja, or do you feel like an unstoppable killing machine that doesn't notice when enemies shoot at you.

 

 

If that is the experience that DE is trying to sell, then I'm on board.  It feels awesome for about a week and then gets extremely repetitive.  Obviously, that isn't their goal or we wouldn't have new mission types and Archwing.

 

 

Yes, they all have problems, but they clearly show (at least to me) that DE would like players to actually use the other weapons occasionally, but they have given the players exactly 0 reasons to do so.

 

 

Damage 2.0 is another example of the developers realizing they couldn't expand because there is no reason to take a gun that does 18 dmg, when you have a gun that does 20.

 

But if both weapons have a total dmg of 30, but split unevenly among 3 dmg types, then they are both meaningful choices.

 

 

We are in a similar situation now.  There are almost too many weapons, and a majority don't matter.  If instead there was some kind of "tiered" system, then the developers could have a sniper rifle that is meant to take the player through mars, but no further.  Now the goal for the player is to find the Sniper 2.0 so they can continue sniping later on.

 

 

Why is it that so many players refuse to actually have a conversation.  I'm not saying I'm right, and you a wrong.  I'm trying to open a dialoge for why I think this change should exist and the only responses that I see are "stop trying to ruin my fun" or "shut up".  Why?

[mejulio]

This is silly. You don't have to ask anyone anything. You can go to the wiki for almost anything. If you want advice building a frame/weap go to  warframe-builder. Read, learn, try, fail, learn some more. That's how you stop being a newb. Asking everyone to make all your decisions for you is how to stay a newb. You're right that most vets don't want to be your fountain of information. They want you to learn like we did. When you do, you will be on our level and will be worthy of the best gear. That's not elitism or snobbery. That's wanting people to earn what they get. 

Well I guess it is silly of me but that was how I did learn. The builder doesn't explain anything and the wiki is only good if you know what is that you are looking for. I never said that I depended on help from anyone, that's why I am M7. And I never let anyone make decisions for me that's your assumption. Most veterans are this great fountain because some don't care about the newb. I wasn't asking for all the info. I know you have to read and research. I play on steam and have over 90 games on it that I have played. So yes it elitism and/or snobbery when all it take but a minute of your precious time to answer a question. Please don't tell how I must learn in playing a game. I count on the resources that are available and I thought a Vet would be a good resource. Sorry I guess I was wrong. It's this attitude that turns people off and you sound just like one of those Elitist Vets I was speaking assuming that only your way is best just because that's the you and others learned. Oh and using Warframe build is from players builds so that's still coming from the vets so whats wrong with asking direct questions maybe you feel a little insulted that a newb would ask you something. That is the definition of a snob but I am not assuming you are one because I try very hard not to assume and call they I see it. 

[mejulio]

And seriously man there are some awesome weaps earl on. Amphis, Twin Gremlins, Hind, regular boltor, Soma (at mastery 6 and you said you were rank 7). If you can't make do with those weapons in the mid to late solar system, the problem isn't your gear. 

I didn't say I couldn't make do with these weapons I do quite well them. I was just responding to seemingly outrage over newbs in general having even better weapons. Amphis is very good Twin Germlins not my style didn't like the Hind prefer the Hek when it max out mods and the Phage which I got through my clan, Soma and Prime Soma aren't really that great. This is my preference.

[jmforeman02]

Well I guess it is silly of me but that was how I did learn. The builder doesn't explain anything and the wiki is only good if you know what is that you are looking for. I never said that I depended on help from anyone, that's why I am M7. And I never let anyone make decisions for me that's your assumption. Most veterans are this great fountain because some don't care about the newb. I wasn't asking for all the info. I know you have to read and research. I play on steam and have over 90 games on it that I have played. So yes it elitism and/or snobbery when all it take but a minute of your precious time to answer a question. Please don't tell how I must learn in playing a game. I count on the resources that are available and I thought a Vet would be a good resource. Sorry I guess I was wrong. It's this attitude that turns people off and you sound just like one of those Elitist Vets I was speaking assuming that only your way is best just because that's the you and others learned. Oh and using Warframe build is from players builds so that's still coming from the vets so whats wrong with asking direct questions maybe you feel a little insulted that a newb would ask you something. That is the definition of a snob but I am not assuming you are one because I try very hard not to assume and call they I see it. 

I'm not a snob. I hope everyone becomes a vet. I don't want to say "I'm better" or anything like that. And I do answer the occasional question for newbs. But few things are more irritating than people asking questions covered in the wiki. And the difference between looking at Warframe-Builder and asking someone is that they have already put the information there for you to see. All you have to do is show the initiative to type "warframe-builder" into google.

[jmforeman02]

I didn't say I couldn't make do with these weapons I do quite well them. I was just responding to seemingly outrage over newbs in general having even better weapons. Amphis is very good Twin Germlins not my style didn't like the Hind prefer the Hek when it max out mods and the Phage which I got through my clan, Soma and Prime Soma aren't really that great. This is my preference.

your preference is fine but you were just complaining about how newbs need awesome weapons just to grind. They have some. They don't need Boltor Prime, Rhino Prime, or Synoid Gammacor right out of the gate. Those are the top tier. You should have to earn those over time. I can still run T4 with my Soma, Twin Gremlins, and Amphis so don't act like they aren't good enough for newbs and the newbs need to have a Soma Prime to grind with.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Mastery rank is a failed concept.  It's too open to anyone's interpretation where weapons should fall, and by the same problem too open to forcing players to grind through weapons they may absolutely hate to use.  You think giving them the boltor prime only for them to quit because they already have the super powerful gun is a problem?  Wait until they quit because they have to put up with a weapon or weapons they hate using before they can even wield the boltor prime.  It's lose-lose.  Enough people put together a weapon, rank it up via wearing it on their back while allies extinguish all life on an endless map with 4 spam, then trash the damn thing.  Whole lot of good locking the boltor prime behind a higher MR will do then.  Just delays the inevitable: "I got the best stuff, why keep playing?"

 

These aren't the people DE should be building a game for.  Any developer, really.  If shooting Grineer, Corpus, and Infested as a baseline activity isn't fun then the game wasn't going to last for this person at all, forced grind or not.

 

Additionally, the whole vertical progression aspect of weaponry in Warframe is horrendously flawed to its core - weapons are play styles.  Sadly, some are rendered obsolete simply because no weapon has been provided as a worthy competitor for the upper tiers of game play.

[jmforeman02]

Mastery rank is a failed concept.  It's too open to anyone's interpretation where weapons should fall, and by the same problem too open to forcing players to grind through weapons they may absolutely hate to use.  You think giving them the boltor prime only for them to quit because they already have the super powerful gun is a problem?  Wait until they quit because they have to put up with a weapon or weapons they hate using before they can even wield the boltor prime.  It's lose-lose.  Enough people put together a weapon, rank it up via wearing it on their back while allies extinguish all life on an endless map with 4 spam, then trash the damn thing.  Whole lot of good locking the boltor prime behind a higher MR will do then.  Just delays the inevitable: "I got the best stuff, why keep playing?"

 

These aren't the people DE should be building a game for.  Any developer, really.  If shooting Grineer, Corpus, and Infested as a baseline activity isn't fun then the game wasn't going to last for this person at all, forced grind or not.

 

Additionally, the whole vertical progression aspect of weaponry in Warframe is horrendously flawed to its core - weapons are play styles.  Sadly, some are rendered obsolete simply because no weapon has been provided as a worthy competitor for the upper tiers of game play.

Level requirement systems are arbitrary on almost every game that has them unless something is always a direct upgrade. And Level progression is  almost never based on skill. It's almost always a grind. Not sure why everyone complains about that in this game as if it's new. I'd be ok with making it more skill based, but you're always going to have to put some time in to advance and that's ok. Also people often hate items they level for mastery because they are worse than what they already played with. If it were an upgrade they'd  be ecstatic. You're actually making an argument there for making the weapons release more progressively there instead of all at once so that you can get the best first.