Heavy Caliber - We Need A Good Change, Please Support

[Johannez]

Heavy Caliber is the rifle mod which increases base damage but also reduces accuracy. http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Caliber

 

First of all the concept is really nice to have a disadventage in addition to the damage buff, but the big problem is accuracy cannot be controlled by players. Things where we players cannot react to (gameplay wise) are really not a good idea.

 

I have to pull up a simple example. Take any modern tripple-A Shooter, you can compensate for (a good amount of) recoil by pulling down. Gameplay wise this addition has worlds between (awesome).

 

Now nobody asks you guys to implement any of this (which would totally be appreciated by the way!) but please make the following simple change to Heavy Caliber (which would be worlds better too):

 

Change:

Instead of accuracy loss the penalty is weopon recoil.

 

Explanation:

Simple put the 2 most important factors are the barrel lenght & the caliber. What does Heavy Caliber? Give a heavier one which would actually increase stability of the projectile.

 

I just found out you guys intented it this exact way and changed it because of the none-recoil weapons:

 

Let them have the accuracy penalty

 

But please let us be accurate with our Sniper Rifles

 

 

⇓ Let our community decide⇓

Edited February 24, 2015 by YavielsNight

[Johannez]

I vote for change to recoil for Rifles and Sniper Rifles.

This would lead to more bursting instead of holding the trigger down and blindfiring.

 

(also damage buff for Shotguns closeup 8m)

Edited February 22, 2015 by YavielsNight

[-Upgreid-]

I think that Vile Precision needs to be an accuracy mod. Heavy caliber giving recoil on energy weapons doesn't really make sense. Better yet, they need to overhaul accuracy altogether. 

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

Could be decent, but us console players have the aiming stuff pretty rough already, it could prove to be too difficult for some if they added in recoil. We are super ninjas, anyways.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

So, you ask for disadvantage which will not be disadvantage?

Especially for sniper rifles?

 

And motivate this... ?

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

I think what they really need to do is just rename the description it -25% accuracy to +25% spread... like the Shotgun version.  I think the only reason they don't is because it doesn't hold true for semi-autos and single shotters.  

Atleast that makes sense and it is what the mod does for things like Soma anyway.

Edited February 22, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue

[Xikiri]

Alternatively, we could have a way to apply travel time to weapons with HCaliber equipped as well as increase it on weapons with innate travel time. Either or.

[gvidzix]

GOod idea, otherwise don't use fully ranked HC, keep it between rank 6-8, works for almost all guns with no accuracy drop ...

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I think it *used* to be recoil back when it was first released, but DE changed it because certain weapons (Ignis, flux rifle) have no recoil.

[(PSN)Kish_Lat]

if it is too much if an accuracy loss to you, simply dont use it

[Johannez]

I think it *used* to be recoil back when it was first released, but DE changed it because certain weapons (Ignis, flux rifle) have no recoil.

Thats exactly what i wrote. ^

[Othergrunty]

First of all the concept is really nice to have a disadventage in addition to the damage buff, but the big problem is accuracy cannot be controlled by players. Things where we players cannot react to (gameplay wise) are really not a good idea.

 

I have to pull up a simple example. Take any modern tripple-A Shooter, you can compensate for (a good amount of) recoil by pulling down. Gameplay wise this addition has worlds between (awesome).

 

Not to be completely against your idea, but i think there is a bit of a flaw in this argument.

 

Mainly that "accurancy" in the mod description is more or less just meaning "spread". It's not refering to the Tenno's accurancy, but the accurancy of the weapon which the Tenno can't controll since it's a mechanic issue. The Tenno has no controll over the bullet once it leaves the barrel (except for Mag).

 

Heavy Calibre in this case could simply mean the bullet is layered in void energy which increases the effect of it's impact. However said energy is unstable and causes microscoping gravity hiccups. These increase the chance of the bullet losing it's in flight stability and leave it's path by some degree.

 

Weapon spread in turn is something which is common in almost all shooters, including the modern military ones, which i assume is what you mean with "tripple-a" (i hate that stupid term) and it is in fact something which players can't controll directly in almost all these games.

 

However that is not to say that players can't compensate spread. If a weapon has increasd spread it's logical to reduce the distance to enemies in order to increase the chance of the bullets hitting an opponent.  So instead of compensating it with direct controll input, you compensate via tactics.

 

This in turn is something you can do in Warframe. If you want be sure your increased damage actualy hits the enemy you have to get closer and increase the risk of getting hit.

 

So not only is the reduced weapon accurancy via spread something which is infact common in shooters, but it's also something which players can still compensate.

[Johannez]

Not to be completely against your idea, but i think there is a bit of a flaw in this argument.

 

Mainly that "accurancy" in the mod description is more or less just meaning "spread". It's not refering to the Tenno's accurancy, but the accurancy of the weapon which the Tenno can't controll since it's a mechanic issue. The Tenno has no controll over the bullet once it leaves the barrel (except for Mag).

 

Heavy Calibre in this case could simply mean the bullet is layered in void energy which increases the effect of it's impact. However said energy is unstable and causes microscoping gravity hiccups. These increase the chance of the bullet losing it's in flight stability and leave it's path by some degree.

 

Weapon spread in turn is something which is common in almost all shooters, including the modern military ones, which i assume is what you mean with "tripple-a" (i hate that stupid term) and it is in fact something which players can't controll directly in almost all these games.

 

However that is not to say that players can't compensate spread. If a weapon has increasd spread it's logical to reduce the distance to enemies in order to increase the chance of the bullets hitting an opponent.  So instead of compensating it with direct controll input, you compensate via tactics.

 

This in turn is something you can do in Warframe. If you want be sure your increased damage actualy hits the enemy you have to get closer and increase the risk of getting hit.

 

So not only is the reduced weapon accurancy via spread something which is infact common in shooters, but it's also something which players can still compensate.

 

No you are wrong. Warframe does not have said spread other shooters do. Warframe weapons' accuracy is fixed.

 

If you don't believe me run a soma prime with maxed heavy caliber. Fire 1 bullet and you will see it's all over the place, only with much luck(rng) the first bullet will land where the crosshair is pointing.

 

Spread = xy% accuracy loss per bullet fired | Which also means the first bullet will always hit where aiming, no matter the amount of spread. (shotguns work different) This is what spread is for rifles, and this is not ingame.

 

Your argument is invalid.

Edited February 24, 2015 by YavielsNight

[Mystful]

No you are wrong. Warframe does not have said spread other shooters do. Warframe weapons' accuracy is fixed.

 

If you don't believe me run a soma prime with maxed heavy caliber. Fire 1 bullet and you will see it's all over the place, only with much luck(rng) the first bullet will land where the crosshair is pointing.

 

Spread = xy% accuracy loss per bullet fired | Which also means the first bullet will always hit where aiming, no matter the amount of spread. (shotguns work different) This is what spread is for rifles, and this is not ingame.

 

Your argument is invalid.

 

 

Just imo, Heavy Caliber is fine where it is, mostly due to the fact that I have yet to get this mod, and try it out. It's a good idea but I believe it will kill usefulness of the mod entirely for console's or people such as myself that play at an insanely low fps. And as we all know Warframe has little to no logic within it.(on fire? don't bother with water :D!) 

 

But in all honesty there is nothing wrong with the mod, from what I've seen. And to add even more recoil, on some very recoil-heavy weapons isn't the best idea imo.

 

But that's just my opinion in the matter.

Edited February 24, 2015 by xXRedFooXx

[Rakosta_Kai]

-snip-

 

Can't support this measure...

 

The downside to using Heavy Caliber is that you have are going to do more damage at the cost of more missed shots at anything outside medium range.

 

Your proposed idea removes even that chance (an already small one given that the weapon probably has a multi-shot mod on as well) with just a small application of skill, a mod, or practice.

 

The current set-up offers a viable trade-off.

Your idea potentially sets up a scenario where the tradeoff for it would likely come from current and future mods and weapons.

[KyrosQF]

Ok, Heavy Caliber no longer changes bullet trajectory but now gives a percentage of weapon hits to deal no damage resulting in "Miss" to appear on the damage flyout by the same percentage on the mod.

Edited February 24, 2015 by KyrosQF

[Kruglov]

I've wanted a +accuracy mod since forever.

 

This change would be welcome as well.

[NocturneOfSolace]

So, you ask for disadvantage which will not be disadvantage?

Especially for sniper rifles?

 

And motivate this... ?

How is higher recoil not a disadvantage

[onemoonlight]

you're already bursting 99% of the time, so how is this a disadvantage? :S

[Liberty83]

The actual premise of this suggestion is inherently false.  There are generally 3 factors that affect accuracy in most shooters (most, not all)  Recoil, Bloom, and Cone of Fire.

 

Recoil as mentioned is the "kick" to the weapon that you can control by pulling your mouse whatever direction recoil dictates (vertical is the most common but many have aspects of horizontal recoil as well).

 

Bloom is basically the idea that the longer your fire the more inaccurate your weapon gets, thus you burst fire.  A good exaggerated example of this would be the Burston vs. Gorgon.

 

Lastly, the cone of fire comes into play with many (but not all) weapons in the game, in that not every projectile goes exactly where you tell it too.   This level of "lacking control" already exists and is simply made worse by the mod.  If you remove CoF, you remove a dimension in which weapons are balanced around allowing for a much greater variety in equipment. 

 

Really you could release a heavy caliber with a debuff to any of the three accuracy stats and each would change the way you handled the weapon.

 

+Dmg + recoil would force you to wrestle with your full auto weapons more and provide a huge benefit to single target high damage weapons as well as those with zero recoil.

 

+dmg +bloom would make you fire shorter bursts and benefit semi auto / burst variant weapons, full auto weapons could be tap fired rather than just holding down m1.

 

+dmg + CoF (-acc) basically limits the effective range of many weapons and provides the mod with a real downside (where as the other two are generally compensated for).   Given the mod is an additionally 165% damage boost at the cost of 1 mod slot, this option makes the most sense as it comes with the steepest penalty.   If it were something like +60% damage (all damage, being the best +damage option) I could see you making more of a case for one of the other two options.  .  

[Johannez]

The actual premise of this suggestion is inherently false.  There are generally 3 factors that affect accuracy in most shooters (most, not all)  Recoil, Bloom, and Cone of Fire.

Man I read your whole post and wow, you don't even understand or willing to understand 1 thing. Are you a troll?

 

But I can explain it anyway to you how it works in warframe:

 

Recoil as mentioned is the "kick" to the weapon that you can control by pulling your mouse whatever direction recoil dictates (vertical is the most common but many have aspects of horizontal recoil as well).

In warframe recoil can't be controlled. Because it is a loop. loop = goes up/down/left/right and comes back to the starting point

 

Bloom is basically the idea that the longer your fire the more inaccurate your weapon gets, thus you burst fire.  A good exaggerated example of this would be the Burston vs. Gorgon.

I called it spread, you call it bloom. Said spread is not ingame, I mentioned this aswell. That's why burst-firing with a full-auto weapon is irrelevant.

 

Lastly, the cone of fire comes into play with many (but not all) weapons in the game, in that not every projectile goes exactly where you tell it too.

It's called accuracy, you call it cof which again is the same.

 

This level of "lacking control" already exists and is simply made worse by the mod.  If you remove CoF, you remove a dimension in which weapons are balanced around allowing for a much greater variety in equipment.

And again wow... how can you even write something like that.

Look:

 If -55% Accuracy would change to +55% Recoil -> 

 

Got it now?

The massiv added recoil will influence the crosshair aka a realy bad thing. But the great thing now is following(also in terms of balance):

* The recoil is still a hefty penalty

* Bursting with auto rifles( which are 70% of rifles ingame) now has a place, and worth doing. Because now, stopping while firing will center the crosshair again.

Before, it would not make sense, because the accuracy is downright terrible with Heavy Caliber on, even when taking a single shot.

 

Being able to stop firering(which decreases DPS) but therefor having the option to be more accurate is a welcome addition.

 

* Also Sniper Rifles have a fair benefit from this. Single-shot but high damage. Loosing such massiv damageoutput(Heavy Cal. Mod) while only having 1 bullet to fire IS unfair. At the moment there is no valid reason taking a sniper rifle instead a normal rifle = Not Balanced (dont come with the zoom argument)

 

 

Could be decent, but us console players have the aiming stuff pretty rough already, it could prove to be too difficult for some if they added in recoil. We are super ninjas, anyways.

 

In the end this also works for console players.

 

Now to summarize for Liberty83(read everything before commenting again):

 

In Warframe there are 2 values. Recoil & Accuracy. There is no spread. Which is the exact reason why there is no point in bursting with full-auto rifles.

[Vanadium]

You guys...realize that HC used to affect recoil from the beginning, right?

 

They changed it because it was abusive for weapons that did not possess recoil, i.e. Continuous Fire weapons, Charge Weapons, etc. Any gun that is one shot, or recoiless (Vectis, Grinlok), would require this mod, simply because there's no disadvantage for them. Although some OP guns would have a difficult time with this mod (Boltor Prime), others would only become more OP (Sammacor, since I'm assuming this change would extend to Magnum Force as well).

 

Also, it's important to remember that you can only push the output power of gun by so much IRL before it starts to tear itself apart. Take for example the 9mm Parabellum. There are regular 9mm loads (P), high pressure/power loads (+P), and the Russians went nuts and made an "overpressure" round (+P+) for penetrating certain body armor. Though most Wonder 9s (high capacity 9mm pistols) can handle +P rounds, only the PP-2000 SMG and GSh-18 pistol, guns built around and specifically for the +P+ 9mm round, can actually handle the +P+ round. Other Wonder 9s just get screwed by it. I know we have space magic and stuff, but the progression of anything in this game is constantly killing believable immersion.

 

Point is, Heavy Caliber is a dumb mod to begin with, having a ridiculously high ceiling, and probably should never been introduced in the first place since it pulled at the DEEPs crowd's heartstrings and made normal players /facepalm at the same time.

 

Finally, Considering that DE is deciding whether or not to keep base weapon DMG/multishot mods around, I feel like this discussion should be held off for later.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Vanadium

[Liberty83]

Man I read your whole post and wow, you don't even understand or willing to understand 1 thing. Are you a troll?

 

 

 

When someone presents you with game mechanics and you immediately call them a troll, it strongly suggests you don't have a leg to stand on.  I explained why heavy caliber is best done as a  -accuracy penalty instead of the other two, you can choose to disagree but the reality is given the way straight damage works it is the most fair approach to such a powerful mod.

 

Good luck with your ill thought out campaign for change though, I'll try to keep my "trolling" of disagreeing with your premise and the foundation you try to use to establish it to a minimum. :)

 

*edit* For your benefit, I included a video to show you just what I was talking about using the accuracy profiles of 3 different weapons : Buzlock, Braton Prime, Gorgon

 

http://youtu.be/cWgdFsMPQbU

 

You can see in the first clip the "Cone of fire" of the Braton as well as the jittery side to side recoil (that as you said is difficult to compensate for).   Next is the Buzlock which is actually 100% first shot accurate, but has a static angle of recoil when you don't compensate for it, you can also see what looks like a bit of bloom that is (as opposed to the way most shooters handle it) really just a play on recoil, but is still represents what I feel is this game's take on a bit of bloom without having to add in the full blown mechanic of it.   (If you read my original post I said *MOST* shooters have three factors that affect accuracy. Not all. )

 

Finally with the Gorgon, you can see it uses the same LMG style recoil of a fixed vertical angle and that it doesn't really bloom (as burst firing you still get those really inaccurate shots the same as you get with full auto) but instead just has a very wide CoF. 

 

And this really only covers 2 weapon classes in the game and you can already see how varied the accuracy profiles are. I could have grabbed more, but I just went with the first three that properly illustrate the three accuracy factors I was talking about.  (One Assault rifle, 2 LMG's)

Edited February 24, 2015 by Liberty83

[AM-Bunny]

Honestly Heavy Caliber is probably my favourite Corrupted mod for just the reasons you dislike. 

 

While I love Corrupted mods that have drawbacks that are easy to work around, I think that these are rather poor design. To appreciate the great power they give, you must give something up. Heavy Caliber offers a significant bonus, but also a significant drawback.

 

It's one of the (very) few points of contention among weapon builds. Is it worth it to equip Heavy Caliber? Some people love it, some people hate it. It's a mod that is truly dependent on the weapon you're putting it on, and your playstyle with the weapon (namely whether you stay mid-close range or not). It's one of the only mods in the game that can claim this, and isn't simply mindlessly throwing more dps onto your gun.

 

Changing Heavy Caliber to recoil would allow it to be exploited with weapons like Dera like it was originally. I strongly disagree with this proposal, Heavy Caliber is perfect as-is.

[Deviantis]

Please change it to this so I can hit 50m damage with dread.