Synoid Gammacor Does Not Need Changes, It Is Already Balanced

[DarkLordX2]

Why even bother create more pages when this argument is going no where?

 

Don't think anyone has changed their opinions in the many pages nor shall they, this is as endless and pointless as them pay2win arguments.

 

You are better off arguing with the wall.

Since when a weapon being needlessly OP is a pay2win argument?

 

People these days...

[RealPandemonium]

Not quite that either. There are some people who can make very good use out of that weapon at a level it can shine at.

 

My point here is that the level of enemies that would make the argument in this thread valid about weapons in general that are considered "end game" is probably not being reached by the majority of people here.

 

Therefore, this thread is simply asking for a weapon, or weapons, to simply become useless.... sooner... which solves what problem exactly?

I would say that the intent is to bring weapons in line such that they are mostly sidegrades to each other; in other words, undo the powercreep so that game content can be calibrated to our options.

 

 

It's time for some hardcore missions that start at later waves/rounds/minutes, etc.

 

or else it would remain boring even if this weapon is nerfed.

All of our equipment should be viable; making new content specifically for fotm equipment doesn't make any sense.

Edited March 6, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Faulcun]

I would say that the intent is to bring weapons in line such that they are mostly sidegrades to each other; in other words, undo the powercreep so that game content can be calibrated to our options.

 

 

 

All of our equipment should be viable; making new content specifically for fotm equipment doesn't make any sense.

 

ALL equipment IS viable! If your issue is with power creep, then you have a much larger problem to deal with than just a single weapon.

[vaugahn]

ALL equipment IS viable! 

 

...but some are more viable than others.

 

Which is where the problem lies.

[AlphaHorseman]

I would say that the intent is to bring weapons in line such that they are mostly sidegrades to each other; in other words, undo the powercreep so that game content can be calibrated to our options.

 

 

 

All of our equipment should be viable; making new content specifically for fotm equipment doesn't make any sense.

I didn't grind through all 5 ranks of a bloody syndicate, sacrifice time, resources, and credits, to get a sidegrade of something. I did all that hell to get an upgrade. And by golly I'm gonna get my upgrade. What's the point of progressing through the syndicates if you just get a weapon that's already out there for cheap?

 

Some equipment is viable for certain mission levels, but that's the point of tiering our weapons. Although right now we don't have any definitive tiers in WarFrame, I'd say the Syndicate weapons, for all the hell we go through to get them, are pretty much End-Game level weaponry. They deserve to be powerful, and we go through a lot of sacrifice to get that power. Rakta Ballistica just got a buff, yes! Now it's in a pretty good spot. Note also that the Syannoid Gammacors damage type isn't the best out there, even with its big damage numbers, it's damage type does hinder it. It also has limited range, something most secondaries or even primaries don't have.

Edited March 6, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[RealPandemonium]

I didn't grind through all 5 ranks of a bloody syndicate, sacrifice time, resources, and credits, to get a sidegrade of something. I did all that hell to get an upgrade. And by golly I'm gonna get my upgrade. What's the point of progressing through the syndicates if you just get a weapon that's already out there for cheap?

 

Some equipment is viable for certain mission levels, but that's the point of tiering our weapons. Although right now we don't have any definitive tiers in WarFrame, I'd say the Syndicate weapons, for all the hell we go through to get them, are pretty much End-Game level weaponry. They deserve to be powerful, and we go through a lot of sacrifice to get that power. Rakta Ballistica just got a buff, yes! Now it's in a pretty good spot. Note also that the Syannoid Gammacors damage type isn't the best out there, even with its big damage numbers, it's damage type does hinder it. It also has limited range, something most secondaries or even primaries don't have.

Your entitlement is showing.

[RealPandemonium]

 

I didn't grind through all 5 ranks of a bloody syndicate, sacrifice time, resources, and credits, to get a sidegrade of something. I did all that hell to get an upgrade. And by golly I'm gonna get my upgrade. What's the point of progressing through the syndicates if you just get a weapon that's already out there for cheap?\

Your entitlement is showing.

 

Some equipment is viable for certain mission levels, but that's the point of tiering our weapons. Although right now we don't have any definitive tiers in WarFrame, I'd say the Syndicate weapons, for all the hell we go through to get them, are pretty much End-Game level weaponry. They deserve to be powerful, and we go through a lot of sacrifice to get that power.

Pretty much all equipment is viable for regular content (from Mercury to T4 missions.)  You imply that infinite content is "endgame" and that overpowered options are what we should work towards in order to be able to play "endgame."  Why should we be restricted to a small subset of our options in any content?  Warframe is all about flavor.  You use the frames and weapons that you feel like using, and use them in a variety of mission types.  Some players might treat it as a power fantasy where they have THE BEST equipment and are gods who worked hard (lol) to attain that status, but the rest of us shouldn't be shoehorned into that kind of situation.  

Edited March 6, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Jinryusai]

Since when a weapon being needlessly OP is a pay2win argument?

 

People these days...

Since when did people stop reading?

 

People these days...

[Jinryusai]

I would say that the intent is to bring weapons in line such that they are mostly sidegrades to each other; in other words, undo the powercreep so that game content can be calibrated to our options.

 

 

 

All of our equipment should be viable; making new content specifically for fotm equipment doesn't make any sense.

And what does fotm have to do with hardcore missions?

 

Nerfing in general won't even make this game harder...

Edited March 6, 2015 by Jinryusai

[RealPandemonium]

And what does fotm have to do with hardcore missions?

 

Nerfing in general won't even make this game harder...

"Hardcore" missions should challenge our skill and discipline; they should not be gear checks and they should not justify the powercreep that has plagued this game steadily for the last year.  When I say fotm I mean "the new OP weapon or frame that came out recently."

[DarkLordX2]

"Hardcore" missions should challenge our skill and discipline; they should not be gear checks and they should not justify the powercreep that has plagued this game steadily for the last year.  When I say fotm I mean "the new OP weapon or frame that came out recently."

Well said.

[AlphaHorseman]

 

 

Your entitlement is showing.

 

Pretty much all equipment is viable for regular content (from Mercury to T4 missions.)  You imply that infinite content is "endgame" and that overpowered options are what we should work towards in order to be able to play "endgame."  Why should we be restricted to a small subset of our options in any content?  Warframe is all about flavor.  You use the frames and weapons that you feel like using, and use them in a variety of mission types.  Some players might treat it as a power fantasy where they have THE BEST equipment and are gods who worked hard (lol) to attain that status, but the rest of us shouldn't be shoehorned into that kind of situation.  

 

I'm entitled to my own opinion, thank you very much.

 

And you can't tell me bringing an MK-1 Paris is going to be "viable" in a T4 Exterminate. I implied nothing, you assumed that I meant infinite content was endgame. You assumed that I meant the only options were what you call "over powered" options, when in all actuality they are just fine. You could bring that MK-1 Paris to a T4 Exterminate if you wish, have fun with that. You cannot deny that our weapons have different levels of potency, they're in a loose tiered system at the moment. I agree that WarFrame is about flavour, but even DE has stated in a previous DevStream that they're going to tier the weapons. (Don't ask which, I'm not gonna sift through all that content for a minute of talking).

 

You aren't shoehorned into anything, whatever you bring to a mission is whatever you bring. But our weapons are roughly tiered. A Paris Prime is much more viable than a Paris in higher content. The Rakta Ballistica is much more viable than the regular Ballistica. The Latron Prime is gonna whoop the regular Latron's buttocks for stats. And so on and so forth. Of course, when it comes to Frames, this isn't the case. Your choice is your flavour, and (hopefully soon) all frames will be viable for any in-game situations.

 

Of course, as there are rough tiers, I would hope DE would continue to expand each tier to include weaponry that all players can enjoy. We've already got a low level puncture bow (MK-1 Paris), it's mid-level counterpart (Paris), and it's top tier rendition (Paris Prime). If DE could continue to expand the weapon types in each tier, then we could all enjoy the many weapons we like in all tiers of content.

 

Don't discount people's work. A lot of us had to Formae our weapons many times, and invest a lot of credits and fusion cores into our mods to get our gear to higher levels. Dismissing it as something lesser is just insulting people for investing their work into their gear.

Edited March 6, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Faulcun]

...but some are more viable than others.

 

Which is where the problem lies.

 

 

"Hardcore" missions should challenge our skill and discipline; they should not be gear checks and they should not justify the powercreep that has plagued this game steadily for the last year.  When I say fotm I mean "the new OP weapon or frame that came out recently."

 

Some weapons being better than others is not the problem.  If you NEED specific frames, or have to gear check ANYTHING below 40min or 40 waves, your weapons or loadout arent your problem.

 

10 min in recruiting chat will tell you everything you need to know.

[Jinryusai]

"Hardcore" missions should challenge our skill and discipline; they should not be gear checks and they should not justify the powercreep that has plagued this game steadily for the last year.  When I say fotm I mean "the new OP weapon or frame that came out recently."

And what does that have to do with hardcore missions? You don't even need said weapon or warframe to be overpowered...

[Magneu]

Just gonna put this in here, I started a thread a couple days ago questioning if syndicate weapons should be so powerful AND have their amazing secondary effects; it is not just about nerfing the Synoid. However, it does play a part in it.

 

The Rakta is justified in its stats, as it is difficult to use well; charged shots are semi slow, burst fire has crazy recoil. The Synoid by comparison has 25 meter range (eclipsing EVERY other beam weapon besides Quanta), and too many advantages like amazing ammo efficiency, extra reserve ammo, good status, large clip, etc. Here's an excerpt from my post;

 

The argument of "Nobody is telling you to use it, use something else" is ignoring the problem. The problem is that such an easy to use, infinite ammo, highest DPS in the game by a roughly 27% burst DPS and 52% sustained DPS margin (comparing max damage Synoid and max damage Boltor Prime, ignoring punch through, ammo efficiency, etc) exists. And with those builds, the Boltor Prime gets about 3 seconds of max Heavy Caliber, projectile fire, while the Synoid gets 11.6 seconds of perfect accuracy, 25 meters range fire.

 

There's probably some weapons that can outDPS the Boltor Prime, but BP is current meta for DPS. Number don't lie here; the Synoid is too freaking powerful, especially looking at damage per ammo/time firing (ignoring outliers like bows, which take MUCH more skill to use. The Synoid simply has too much going for it, and it's two downsides, Magnetic base (decent for voids vs Moas) and 25 meter range (top of its class and not even too much of a gimp in most maps) do nothing to mitigate its ease of use, ammo efficiency, and DPS.

 

If it was reduced to 15 meters range, I would be happy; it would be an amazing self defense weapon like Suda probably designed it to be. OR, mess with damage/fire rate to make it consume drastically more ammo while maintaining around the same DPS, to make it an awesome burst weapon. In either case, the 375 reserve ammo is just stupid.

 

Edit: Grammar.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Magneu

[Faulcun]

Just gonna put this in here, I started a thread a couple days ago questioning if syndicate weapons should be so powerful AND have their amazing secondary effects; it is not just about nerfing the Synoid. However, it does play a part in it.

 

The Rakta is justified in its stats, as it is difficult to use well; charged shots are semi slow, burst fire has crazy recoil. The Synoid by comparison has 25 meter range (eclipsing EVERY other beam weapon besides Quanta), and too many advantages like amazing ammo efficiency, extra reserve ammo, good status, large clip, etc. Here's an excerpt from my post;

 

The argument of "Nobody is telling you to use it, use something else" is ignoring the problem. The problem is that such an easy to use, infinite ammo, highest DPS in the game by a roughly 27% burst DPS and 52% sustained DPS margin (comparing max damage Synoid and max damage Boltor Prime, ignoring punch through, ammo efficiency, etc) exists. And with those builds, the Boltor Prime gets about 3 seconds of max Heavy Caliber, projectile fire, while the Synoid gets 11.6 seconds of perfect accuracy, 25 meters range fire.

 

There's probably some weapons that can outDPS the Boltor Prime, but BP is current meta for DPS. Number don't lie here; the Synoid is too freaking powerful, especially looking at damage per ammo/time firing (ignoring outliers like bows, which take MUCH more skill to use. The Synoid simply has too much going for it, and it's two downsides (Magnetic base (decent for voids vs Moas) and 25 meter range (top of its class and not even too much of a gimp in most maps) do nothing to mitigate its ease of use, ammo efficiency, and DPS.

 

If it was reduced to 15 meters range, I would be happy; it would be an amazing self defense weapon like Suda probably designed it to be. OR, mess with damage/fire rate to make it consume drastically more ammo while maintaining around the same DPS, to make it an awesome burst weapon. In either case, the 375 reserve ammo is just stupid.

 

Numbers do lie, very much so. To be more specific, all those "DPS" guys are lying to themselves. Some of the best weapons in the game have mediocre DPS numbers to begin with.

 

Ill start taking the whole DPS argument seriously when you guys start including numbers on enemy level and health in the equation. The point at which the numbers between the boltor prime and the gammacor can be compared in actual gameplay, are at such a high level that the majority of the playerbase cannot reach, and even less are able to even try to combat with weapons outside some kind of "meta farming" scenario.

 

This means that the effective combat level of most players is in a range that includes a solid MAJORITY of weapons in this game that meet a minimum DPS suitable enough to deal with any enemy in any mission they may normally play.

 

If you take away or nerf the current OP weapon, people will just fall back on the next one in line. Why? Because that weapon is also perfectly capable of meeting that minimum DPS requirement. If you get rid of that one, the result will be the same with the next weapon and the one after that, so on and so forth.

 

Max DPS means absolutely nothing until it is exceeded by the minimum effective dps required for the level you are playing at, which almost never happens..... and I use the term "required" very loosely.

[Magneu]

Numbers do lie, very much so. To be more specific, all those "DPS" guys are lying to themselves. Some of the best weapons in the game have mediocre DPS numbers to begin with.

 

Ill start taking the whole DPS argument seriously when you guys start including numbers on enemy level and health in the equation. The point at which the numbers between the boltor prime and the gammacor can be compared in actual gameplay, are at such a high level that the majority of the playerbase cannot reach, and even less are able to even try to combat with weapons outside some kind of "meta farming" scenario.

 

This means that the effective combat level of most players is in a range that includes a solid MAJORITY of weapons in this game that meet a minimum DPS suitable enough to deal with any enemy in any mission they may normally play.

 

If you take away or nerf the current OP weapon, people will just fall back on the next one in line. Why? Because that weapon is also perfectly capable of meeting that minimum DPS requirement. If you get rid of that one, the result will be the same with the next weapon and the one after that, so on and so forth.

 

Max DPS means absolutely nothing until it is exceeded by the minimum effective dps required for the level you are playing at, which almost never happens..... and I use the term "required" very loosely.

I agree with you here, weapons like bows, Lanka, Quanta seem mid-high tier at first glance, but have attributes that only really shine at very high levels. By "numbers don't lie", I meant just paper DPS; such a DPS gap is pretty extravagant, and probably the reason I see 1-2 Synoids in every match I play with pubs, even as low as MR 6.

 

As for minimum DPS, I love to use the AkMagnus, dumped 8 forma in em (messed up one slot). Is it in top five seconday DPS charts? Nope, IDK if it's even in top ten. But I use it to great effect vs lvl 90+ Voids, as its high status and crit chances can push it that little farther. Minimum DPS for starchart and even voids can be reached by most weapons in the game until you hit some truly insane levels (and can be bypassed entirely with 4x Corrosive Projection). I have a max formaed Boltor/Soma Prime/Amprex/etc, but I use Latron Prime mostly in high levels because of insane headshot crits/good status; DPS junkies are going to look at the WF Builder of Latron Prime, see it doesn't break 14k sustained, and pass it up. Meanwhile, I'm taking down level 95 Corrupted Gunners in 3-5 seconds. In this case, numbers DO lie.

 

What I'm trying to say here is that paper DPS =/= game DPS, but the Synoid is so strong and has so many additional benefits to straight up damage that it is a major imbalancing factor in the game; how many Raid groups are going to say "Synoid or GTFO" (I really hope none)? Numbers lie, but the Synoid's numbers are so inflated along with the ability to never run out of ammo that it pays off the numbers to look elsewhere. Really don't know what DE was thinking when they buffed it.

[Volume]

Flux Rifle was 25m and that got nerfed to hell and back when they removed serrated blade damage :(

[seth]

I potatoed this weapon and placed one forma on it, I'm using it with range and seeker mod and it is really good, it does feel powerful but not OP, it can be moded in various ways: high DPS, balanced and endurance; single target or multiple. In terms of moding it reminds me on opticor.

Players who don't have this weapon or didn't use it should not comment on it.

There are alot of other weapons that need buff and polish, angstrum, castanas, lato vandal...

[Dampfhammer]

ebolists range is a disadvantage

the 25 m of the gammacore is not

 

what you all forget is, that the gammacore also comes with the best syndicate proc and basicaly gives you unlimited energy while you have it equiped

 

even with half the damage the gammacore does now, it would still be a realy good weapon

[Faulcun]

I agree with you here, weapons like bows, Lanka, Quanta seem mid-high tier at first glance, but have attributes that only really shine at very high levels. By "numbers don't lie", I meant just paper DPS; such a DPS gap is pretty extravagant, and probably the reason I see 1-2 Synoids in every match I play with pubs, even as low as MR 6.

 

As for minimum DPS, I love to use the AkMagnus, dumped 8 forma in em (messed up one slot). Is it in top five seconday DPS charts? Nope, IDK if it's even in top ten. But I use it to great effect vs lvl 90+ Voids, as its high status and crit chances can push it that little farther. Minimum DPS for starchart and even voids can be reached by most weapons in the game until you hit some truly insane levels (and can be bypassed entirely with 4x Corrosive Projection). I have a max formaed Boltor/Soma Prime/Amprex/etc, but I use Latron Prime mostly in high levels because of insane headshot crits/good status; DPS junkies are going to look at the WF Builder of Latron Prime, see it doesn't break 14k sustained, and pass it up. Meanwhile, I'm taking down level 95 Corrupted Gunners in 3-5 seconds. In this case, numbers DO lie.

 

What I'm trying to say here is that paper DPS =/= game DPS, but the Synoid is so strong and has so many additional benefits to straight up damage that it is a major imbalancing factor in the game; how many Raid groups are going to say "Synoid or GTFO" (I really hope none)? Numbers lie, but the Synoid's numbers are so inflated along with the ability to never run out of ammo that it pays off the numbers to look elsewhere. Really don't know what DE was thinking when they buffed it.

 

Im so glad that you understand where im coming from in that regard. Ill comment on it further, because what you are suggesting is an underlying aspect to the community that is beyond simple weapon nerfs.

 

Every syndicate weapon has considerable benefits over other weapons to begin with. I can clearly understand "Synoid or GTFO". This isnt a weapon problem.... this is what I like to call a scrub problem. In all honestly, I am wrong in even calling it a 'problem" because its not really a problem, its the nature of the community.

 

Again as I stated above in other posts, if you spend 10 minutes in the recruiting chat, you will learn all you need to know about the community. I am NOT sitting here today and saying that all players need to be mlg pro 1337 haXor super 420 blazin 360 no scope master gamers. (<--- This hurts my brain so much...) But you have groups of people who NEED to "meta farm" or HAVE to use a specific set of frames modded for super specific abilities, with super specific load outs, just to be able to complete the goal of their missions, or they fail under other circumstances.

 

Some people will tell you that they have reduced the field down to a "metagame" efficiency. This is not true in any aspect. What they are doing is copying a strategy created by a small handful of people that have the skills necessary to come up with it in the first place, and through experience have the ability to reduce the game to its simplicities. These are the clans you see at the top of the charts during events. This is also why not every clan in the game is at the same level as those people.

 

The real difference is that these people that you see in recruiting chat cannot defend themselves in a mission if something throws a monkey wrench into their plans. Ive seen groups quit a void mission because the room they wanted to camp in didnt spawn.  Ive seen a group fall apart because of a single nullifier, without having even reached 20 min. I see people in recruiting chat advertising "skilled excal looking for draco rep", and it makes me laugh every time.... Skilled at what? Standing still and pressing 4 repeatedly?

 

Nerfing a single weapon isnt going to fix those people, or what I like to call "meta-gamers" lol. The real capable people, like yourself, will clearly choose another weapon based on preference, or favoritism, or even mood, rather than what is "obviously" a "better" choice because.... "reasons". The reality is that there are many valid choices for any mission.

 

What is really happening here, is an attempt to force these "meta-gamers" in to learning how to play the real game by reducing their "obvious" choices in OP weaponry, causing them to learn how to use a "lesser" weapon to accomplish the same goals. This idea is a fallacy because the lesson will never be learned unless a person takes the time to exercise a bit of self discipline.

 

And we all know thats not going to happen

Edited March 9, 2015 by Faulcun

[RealPandemonium]

Im so glad that you understand where im coming from in that regard. Ill comment on it further, because what you are suggesting is an underlying aspect to the community that is beyond simple weapon nerfs.

 

Every syndicate weapon has considerable benefits over other weapons to begin with. I can clearly understand "Synoid or GTFO". This isnt a weapon problem.... this is what I like to call a scrub problem. In all honestly, I am wrong in even calling it a 'problem" because its not really a problem, its the nature of the community.

 

Again as I stated above in other posts, if you spend 10 minutes in the recruiting chat, you will learn all you need to know about the community. I am NOT sitting here today and saying that all players need to be mlg pro 1337 haXor super 420 blazin 360 no scope master gamers. (<--- This hurts my brain so much...) But you have groups of people who NEED to "meta farm" or HAVE to use a specific set of frames modded for super specific abilities, with super specific load outs, just to be able to complete the goal of their missions, or they fail under other circumstances.

 

Some people will tell you that they have reduced the field down to a "metagame" efficiency. This is not true in any aspect. What they are doing is copying a strategy created by a small handful of people that have the skills necessary to come up with it in the first place, and through experience have the ability to reduce the game to its simplicities. These are the clans you see at the top of the charts during events. This is also why not every clan in the game is at the same level as those people.

 

The real difference is that these people that you see in recruiting chat cannot defend themselves in a mission if something throws a monkey wrench into their plans. Ive seen groups quit a void mission because the room they wanted to camp in didnt spawn.  Ive seen a group fall apart because of a single nullifier, without having even reached 20 min. I see people in recruiting chat advertising "skilled excal looking for draco rep", and it makes me laugh every time.... Skilled at what? Standing still and pressing 4 repeatedly?

 

Nerfing a single weapon isnt going to fix those people, or what I like to call "meta-gamers" lol. The real capable people, like yourself, will clearly choose another weapon based on preference, or favoritism, or even mood, rather than what is "obviously" a "better" choice because.... "reasons". The reality is that there are many valid choices for any mission.

 

What is really happening here, is an attempt to force these "meta-gamers" in to learning how to play the real game by reducing their "obvious" choices in OP weaponry, causing them to learn how to use a "lesser" weapon to accomplish the same goals. This idea is a fallacy because the lesson will never be learned unless a person takes the time to exercise a bit of self discipline.

 

And we all know thats not going to happen

Well said, and yet I can only pray that DE does some crazy S#&amp;&#036; at some point and reverses this trend.  If they keep tailoring content to the powercreeped weapons and exploitable powers that we have now the game is only going to get less and less fun and we will have to use THE BEST BUILD just to compete.  Either that, or everything will be buffed to BEST BUILD status and the gap between funded players and new players will increase even further.  Either way, the game becomes a gear check where your skills don't matter so much as your ability to read reddit and find out what THE BEST BUILD is or your ability to farm mods and equipment that auto-wins the game for you.  

[Magneu]

Im so glad that you understand where im coming from in that regard. Ill comment on it further, because what you are suggesting is an underlying aspect to the community that is beyond simple weapon nerfs.

 

Every syndicate weapon has considerable benefits over other weapons to begin with. I can clearly understand "Synoid or GTFO". This isnt a weapon problem.... this is what I like to call a scrub problem. In all honestly, I am wrong in even calling it a 'problem" because its not really a problem, its the nature of the community.

 

Again as I stated above in other posts, if you spend 10 minutes in the recruiting chat, you will learn all you need to know about the community. I am NOT sitting here today and saying that all players need to be mlg pro 1337 haXor super 420 blazin 360 no scope master gamers. (<--- This hurts my brain so much...) But you have groups of people who NEED to "meta farm" or HAVE to use a specific set of frames modded for super specific abilities, with super specific load outs, just to be able to complete the goal of their missions, or they fail under other circumstances.

 

Some people will tell you that they have reduced the field down to a "metagame" efficiency. This is not true in any aspect. What they are doing is copying a strategy created by a small handful of people that have the skills necessary to come up with it in the first place, and through experience have the ability to reduce the game to its simplicities. These are the clans you see at the top of the charts during events. This is also why not every clan in the game is at the same level as those people.

 

The real difference is that these people that you see in recruiting chat cannot defend themselves in a mission if something throws a monkey wrench into their plans. Ive seen groups quit a void mission because the room they wanted to camp in didnt spawn.  Ive seen a group fall apart because of a single nullifier, without having even reached 20 min. I see people in recruiting chat advertising "skilled excal looking for draco rep", and it makes me laugh every time.... Skilled at what? Standing still and pressing 4 repeatedly?

 

Nerfing a single weapon isnt going to fix those people, or what I like to call "meta-gamers" lol. The real capable people, like yourself, will clearly choose another weapon based on preference, or favoritism, or even mood, rather than what is "obviously" a "better" choice because.... "reasons". The reality is that there are many valid choices for any mission.

 

What is really happening here, is an attempt to force these "meta-gamers" in to learning how to play the real game by reducing their "obvious" choices in OP weaponry, causing them to learn how to use a "lesser" weapon to accomplish the same goals. This idea is a fallacy because the lesson will never be learned unless a person takes the time to exercise a bit of self discipline.

 

And we all know thats not going to happen

Amen x1000. I have a friend who together we discovered Viver farming back when it was a thing, I did maybe 3 runs as the Trinity, lost all interest in it as it was so mindless (most fun part to me was running around picking up the mods and having the list on the right side of the screen stop up to five minutes after the last pickup). Whenever we happen to be on at the first time, he messages me "Core/rep/ducat farm?". Thankfully I'm usually in a mission so I just say "Busy atm, maybe later.", then quietly log off at a later time. His entire interest in the game is getting x component/gear piece as fast as possible. That way to play just isn't fun at all.

 

The only real reason I single out the Synoid is that it has a comparably huge gap in numbers, and every pub I join has at least 1-2 guys using it (it's REALLY depressing when I see a MR 10 with most used weapon as Synoid. Literally the most boring weapon in the game, there are so many cooler ones to use!). As it stands, whatever the highest DPs weapon is is the one that min-maxers are gonna go after. Am I guilt of minmaxing? Hell yes, I max forma practically anything fun/better than Mk-1, and most my builds for frames incorporate methods that let me stay alive practically forever (Curative Undertow ftw), shut down areas, keep teammates fighting, whatever. But I take pride in the fact I like to bust out my Burston Prime/Mara Detron/Karyst and go to town instead of always using Boltor Prime/Synoid/"x" copter weapon. 

 

The "scrub problem" is definitely the root of a lot of Warframe's problems though. People browse reddit, find out "x" weapon does most damage, "x" frame can kill the fastest, and they only use that. They will never know the joy of a bouncy house Vauban, a duration Rhino, and other awesome stuff. So many people just need to be as efficient as possible in all aspects of the game, and that's not healthy for a game; not much you can do about it though. People have yelled at me before for not deploying a Suda specter in a T1D, or using a Limbo instead of Frost for Kiste; the meta-ideal makes a lot of people close minded.

 

That being said, I still think the Synoid is a little too good (although personally it falls off hard vs level 60+ armored targets, especially alloy), but it's gotten to the point where I'm kind of content no one else is using Latron Prime, Akmagnus, Dex Furis, as I can dakka dakka away in peace with those and gloat a bit when my damage % is higher. Very excited for raid maps to be huge and that 25 meter range to bite a lot of people on the butt HARD.

[Faulcun]

Amen x1000. I have a friend who together we discovered Viver farming back when it was a thing, I did maybe 3 runs as the Trinity, lost all interest in it as it was so mindless (most fun part to me was running around picking up the mods and having the list on the right side of the screen stop up to five minutes after the last pickup). Whenever we happen to be on at the first time, he messages me "Core/rep/ducat farm?". Thankfully I'm usually in a mission so I just say "Busy atm, maybe later.", then quietly log off at a later time. His entire interest in the game is getting x component/gear piece as fast as possible. That way to play just isn't fun at all.

 

The only real reason I single out the Synoid is that it has a comparably huge gap in numbers, and every pub I join has at least 1-2 guys using it (it's REALLY depressing when I see a MR 10 with most used weapon as Synoid. Literally the most boring weapon in the game, there are so many cooler ones to use!). As it stands, whatever the highest DPs weapon is is the one that min-maxers are gonna go after. Am I guilt of minmaxing? Hell yes, I max forma practically anything fun/better than Mk-1, and most my builds for frames incorporate methods that let me stay alive practically forever (Curative Undertow ftw), shut down areas, keep teammates fighting, whatever. But I take pride in the fact I like to bust out my Burston Prime/Mara Detron/Karyst and go to town instead of always using Boltor Prime/Synoid/"x" copter weapon. 

 

The "scrub problem" is definitely the root of a lot of Warframe's problems though. People browse reddit, find out "x" weapon does most damage, "x" frame can kill the fastest, and they only use that. They will never know the joy of a bouncy house Vauban, a duration Rhino, and other awesome stuff. So many people just need to be as efficient as possible in all aspects of the game, and that's not healthy for a game; not much you can do about it though. People have yelled at me before for not deploying a Suda specter in a T1D, or using a Limbo instead of Frost for Kiste; the meta-ideal makes a lot of people close minded.

 

That being said, I still think the Synoid is a little too good (although personally it falls off hard vs level 60+ armored targets, especially alloy), but it's gotten to the point where I'm kind of content no one else is using Latron Prime, Akmagnus, Dex Furis, as I can dakka dakka away in peace with those and gloat a bit when my damage % is higher. Very excited for raid maps to be huge and that 25 meter range to bite a lot of people on the butt HARD.

 

Thats true that there is little that can be done about the playerbase, at least from our side of things. Realistically from DE's side as well, because of the nature of the design of the game with the powers and how they affect the environment. There will always be very broken aspects to the game regardless of whats done, and that large portion of "meta-gamers" will take every bit of advantage of it. Just like now the latest thing is EGate.

 

But then again, to attempt to do something about it, brings in the whole argument of "who are you to tell somebody how to play".  I personally avoid that by simply not playing with those types of people. Instead, I set an example for my clan members. Together we become better players without resorting to these "meta" strategies. Now when they play missions with pugs, they blow them away with unranked gear and frames. The most simple solution is dont play with those people, and find a clan that better suits your needs as a player. (Shameful plug: You can find a link to my clan in my profile)

 

However, I will admit all day long that the gammacor is a massively powerful weapon. But there needs to be a better reason to nerf it than "scrubs are being too scrubby". If that is an acceptable reason, then id like to bring to the table the topic of the Soma. I say that in jest, but I refuse to use that weapon because of the reasons in this entire conversation.

 

Look at the penta, or the ogris, or even the torrid. Those three weapons alone outclass the gammacor. The only reason we arent talking about those is because its not the latest and greatest that all the "meta-gamers" are using. Yes I know they have a 30 round limit now.... but why is that? These same topic of conversations about nerfing were going on, and now look. Yes, you've effectively stopped the scrubs from being scrubby with that weapon, so they move on to the next thing, as history has shown over and over. Some would argue that they have been rendered useless now, which they absolutely have NOT. But thats a different conversation all together.

 

At the end of the day, you cant stop people from using the rocket launcher in quake, you cant stop people from using the LSAT in cod, you cant stop people from using the smart gun in AVP, you cant stop people from standing in one place spamming 4.....

 

You cant stop scrubs from being scrubs. What you can do, is play with people on your own level. This is the only true thing we have control over, because nerfing one weapon for those reasons will never work.

 

Maybe raids will filter out some of that, but if there is a weakness in the gameplay, as always you'll see it in recruiting chat.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Faulcun

[vaugahn]

Nerfing a single weapon isnt going to fix those people, or what I like to call "meta-gamers" lol. The real capable people, like yourself, will clearly choose another weapon based on preference, or favoritism, or even mood, rather than what is "obviously" a "better" choice because.... "reasons". The reality is that there are many valid choices for any mission.

 

What is really happening here, is an attempt to force these "meta-gamers" in to learning how to play the real game by reducing their "obvious" choices in OP weaponry, causing them to learn how to use a "lesser" weapon to accomplish the same goals. This idea is a fallacy because the lesson will never be learned unless a person takes the time to exercise a bit of self discipline.

 

There's nothing wrong with people picking a best weapon. That will always happen, you are right.

 

The problem here is that the best weapon is head and shoulders above everything else and affords you a degree of power nothing else can. We can't stop people from picking a best weapon, but we can make that best weapon not so overwhelmingly powerful.