Raid Enemies Can Have Level 80 Health, But Not Level 80 Damage

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The enemies in the raid shown off in the last devstream were all level 80. My belief on why is because DE couldn't find a way for 8 players to use the most powerful content in the game without cheesing normal levels, which is a balance issue in my opinion, and one that would take more time to fix than the few weeks before U16.

(This is only for the people who are going to argue "balance doesn't matter". I've posted it several times, but only because invariably someone says balance doesn't matter on every thread that mentions it.)

If they make gameplay suited to those items, (T4 kind of) they completely invalidate items of equal tier that aren't good enough to compete.

If they make gameplay so items don't matter, (Nullifiers, 1 hit kills, things like that) they've killed the purpose of progression and having those items in the first place, while also meaning players need those items more, not less, because they have to take advantage of the items when they can.

If they ignore those items, they've made the game boring for those using them and made dead weight of those not using them.

If DE balances those items instead of trying to ignore them and balance everything else around them, the weapons are still good enough to compete without being overbearing, DE doesn't have to resort to tactics that nullify progression, and DE doesn't have to make their game boring/ make players pointless.

The problem level 80 has is it completely changes Warframe into one of two things: a slow cover shooter, or absolute ability spam to the max. Instead of being masters of gun and blade, with cool powers thrown in, the blade will get left behind, as will a lot of the abilities and guns. A raid is best when it can put all our skills on display, but that can't happen if the enemies do so much damage players can't use these things.

What I'm suggesting is only a partial solution, but at least it allows swords to be usable and doesn't leave behind some frames like Ember that are best in the thick of the action: give the enemies level 25-45 or so damage. This way, players can use swords and even do well with them thanks to the multiplier, and players using close range frames can use those. Because of the high level and number of enemies this will still pose a challenge, but one that can be completed in more ways.

NOTE: I am not saying the raid will be difficult! There are so many ways we can use our mods and abilities without ever having to see an enemy or letting one see us, I'm not concerned about the challenge. With a hand picked recruited group of frames, I'm guessing it will be downright easy. But unless you're perma-invisible or Valkyr, there's no place for melee. Unless you're Banished, there's no place for Ember. The raid will have no room for close range items, because if you're at close range at that point you're dead. And that's a shame, that so much content we have is going to essentially be declared not viable for endgame.

Edited February 26, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Dualstar]

Alternatively, you could git gud.

 

Why bellyache about this when you could bring 4 Lokis biult for Disarm, and still have 2 team battery Trins and whatever else you could possibly want after that?

Edited February 25, 2015 by Dualstar

[xCaptainObviousx]

But... Raids are supposed to be endgame content only accessible of the hardcorest of all hardcore players. This would make scrub casuals able to compete without being hardcore, and we can't allow that to happen because reasons.

[Temp0ralfool]

Alternatively, you could git gud.

 

Why bellyache about this when you could bring 4 Lokis biult for Disarm, and still have 2 team battery Trins and whatever else you could possibly want after that?

so that you don't have to bring 4 disarm lokis and 2 ev trins to succeed.

[jennibear]

While I agree that the system will have to be looked at not all frames are master of blade, frames like saryn and valkyr are examples of masters of the blade, some are masters of gun like banshee, mesa ect. They all have their roles and can't do it all. You'd never see me meleeing with my nova 80% of the time.

 

If we give the enemies level 30 damage it will just be so boring and effortless to run through.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Alternatively, you could git gud.

 

Why bellyache about this when you could bring 4 Lokis biult for Disarm, and still have 2 team battery Trins and whatever else you could possibly want after that?

So now I have to design a team of people who are going to use abilities specifically so I can use melee/shotguns/Ember/whatever else?

Please tell me how to get so good I can beat hitscan 1 hit kills.

[Dualstar]

so that you don't have to bring 4 disarm lokis and 2 ev trins to succeed.

Its what people are going to bring anyway.

 

In the same way that you dont need Loki, Frost and Nova to do 40 waves of T4D, but people are going to use them first anyway.

[jennibear]

So now I have to design a team of people who are going to use abilities specifically so I can use melee/shotguns/Ember/whatever else?

Please tell me how to get so good I can beat hitscan 1 hit kills.

stay near your frost or use shade? its not impossible, plus shotguns aren't bad and ember is not weak... lol

Edited February 25, 2015 by jennibear

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

While I agree that the system will have to be looked at not all frames are master of blade, frames like saryn and valkyr are examples of masters of the blade, some are masters of gun like banshee, mesa ect. They all have their roles and can't do it all. You'd never see me meleeing with my nova 80% of the time.

 

If we give the enemies level 30 damage it will just be so boring and effortless to run through.

Saryn would still get wrecked trying to run around with a sword level 80. Valkyr could, but she's the exception.

And some frames are still worthless in a level 80 environment.

As for the last part, DE's going to need more special enemies with powerful attacks, but avoidable ones. Bombards (not the Corrupted ones, and if we ignore their super-AoE) are a good example of that. Fighting tons of them would be difficult, but not impossible.

[Temp0ralfool]

But... Raids are supposed to be endgame content only accessible of the hardcorest of all hardcore players. This would make scrub casuals able to compete without being hardcore, and we can't allow that to happen because reasons.

I'm not opposed to endgame content being too much for casuls, I am opposed to casuls being defined as people who can't/don't gather a group of (paraphrasing Dualstar's prescribed squad layout) 4 disarm lokis and 2 ev trins.

[(PSN)immanks102]

Why not run 4 limbos and have them banish the other 4 players and have the other 4 as cc type Warframes? 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

stay near your frost or use shade? its not impossible, plus shotguns aren't bad and ember is not weak... lol

Shotguns aren't bad and Ember isn't weak... but they need to be at close range to be at their best. A range where level 80 enemies will cut them apart. Staying inside the bubble with melee defeats the point unless the rest of your team is incapable of killing anything until it gets there.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Why not run 4 limbos and have them banish the other 4 players and have the other 4 as cc type Warframes?

I doubt the raid will be hard to do. You're missing the point, which is that certain things that are supposed to be part of the game, like melee, can't be in the level 80 environment.

[Dualstar]

So now I have to design a team of people who are going to use abilities specifically so I can use melee/shotguns/Ember/whatever else?

Please tell me how to get so good I can beat hitscan 1 hit kills.

Avoid close quarters combat. It literally is the grim reaper itself and it only needs to touch you.

 

Dont melee at all. The only weapons not in violation of the CQC rule are glaives, and they dont have the damage to deal with lvl 80.

 

Shotguns are fine so long as its the Kohm.

 

If playing Ember, spam Fire Blast. Keep things on thier &#! as long as possible.

[jennibear]

Saryn would still get wrecked trying to run around with a sword level 80. Valkyr could, but she's the exception.

And some frames are still worthless in a level 80 environment.

As for the last part, DE's going to need more special enemies with powerful attacks, but avoidable ones. Bombards (not the Corrupted ones, and if we ignore their super-AoE) are a good example of that. Fighting tons of them would be difficult, but not impossible.

no, actually saryn wouldn't. She's become my main lately, you'd just have to use molt very frequently with augment + life strike and spam ult.

 

This is how I play her constantly anyways, its not like I would be changing to spamming my powers anyways, thats why I have rage.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

 This is the problem with pretty much every enemy in the game. Every bullet or melee hit becomes a 1 hit kill, so we end up having to spam powers like Radial Disarm to prevent such damage. Enemies are buffed so that they can kill in the 0.5 seconds they have while not disarmed. We then spam powers more.

 

I'm not saying that we should be able to tank level 40 enemies for hundreds of hits, but it shouldn't be just a few hits to kill.

 

Tenno: Ancient squishies.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Avoid close quarters combat. It literally is the grim reaper itself and it only needs to touch you.

 

Dont melee at all. The only weapons not in violation of the CQC rule are glaives, and they dont have the damage to deal with lvl 80.

 

Shotguns are fine so long as its the Kohm.

 

If playing Ember, spam Fire Blast. Keep things on thier ! as long as possible.

But that's my point. I didn't say it would be difficult to do (in a recruited group with hand picked frames it will probably be downright easy), just that players could not use playstyles that we have been taught since the first mission are a major part of combat. My suggestion aims to make it work for that--although it is admittedly a bandaid for the problems of balance, tells, and DE being able to challenge us.

[xCaptainObviousx]

I'm not opposed to endgame content being too much for casuls, I am opposed to casuls being defined as people who can't/don't gather a group of (paraphrasing Dualstar's prescribed squad layout) 4 disarm lokis and 2 ev trins.

It was a joke, don't think too hard about it.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

Avoid close quarters combat. It literally is the grim reaper itself and it only needs to touch you.

 

Dont melee at all. The only weapons not in violation of the CQC rule are glaives, and they dont have the damage to deal with lvl 80.

 

Shotguns are fine so long as its the Kohm.

 

If playing Ember, spam Fire Blast. Keep things on thier ! as long as possible.

 

"Don't melee" - So melee isn't a thing?

 

"Spam" - So endgame = spam powers?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

no, actually saryn wouldn't. She's become my main lately, you'd just have to use molt very frequently with augment + life strike and spam ult.

 

This is how I play her constantly anyways, its not like I would be changing to spamming my powers anyways, thats why I have rage.

Saryn can definitely get the job done with ability spam, but the sword would just slow her down save the occasional Life Strike. That's my point because at these high levels that's all any frame's gonna be doing, unless using a specific set of weapons.

[Dualstar]

"Don't melee" - So melee isn't a thing?

 

"Spam" - So endgame = spam powers?

Melee damage simply isnt worth the danger of not immediately disabling/killing gun weilding enemies, or getting into strike range of melee enemies.

 

And you can barely go 40mins in T4S without power spam. And thats just at lvl 60.

[jennibear]

Shotguns aren't bad and Ember isn't weak... but they need to be at close range to be at their best. A range where level 80 enemies will cut them apart. Staying inside the bubble with melee defeats the point unless the rest of your team is incapable of killing anything until it gets there.

idk how you play ember but I never play her close range EVER, max range and power strength is the way to go for her.

 

also my point was that not every frame can melee like that, and why would you even try to they are level 80, if you want to melee level 80s than im sorry but your SOL unless you play a build frame like valkyr who masters it, crying about nova or ember not being able to melee level 80's is ignorant because they shouldn't be and are not melee built frames.

 

All frames are different, you can't play them all melee all the time, thats why there is variety, if you want to switch and melee choose valkyr, if you want to be a healer choose trinity or oberon ect. but the Devs should not nerf a few tough enemies because you want to melee with a banshee.

 

It's supposed to be for perfected builds/frames, your supposed to work as a team to figure these things out.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

Also quite a point here:

 

High damage does NOT equal difficulty, just a downright nuisance.

[LazyKnight]

"Don't melee" - So melee isn't a thing?

 

"Spam" - So endgame = spam powers?

Yeah, Spam radial disarm is now uber skillful (sarcasm). High end game-play is nothing more than 'cc' locking NPC, and preventing any meaningful retaliation.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Melee damage simply isnt worth the danger of not immediately disabling/killing gun weilding enemies, or getting into strike range of melee enemies.

 

And you can barely go 40mins in T4S without power spam. And thats just at lvl 60.

Did you read the whole post? And how I stated these are problems that can't be addressed in two weeks or a month or when U16 comes out, but that this would be a tiny bandaid until then?