Handspring Shouldn't Be A Mod

[MoonicusMaximus]

Just a question, but do you actually understand why Dark Souls is difficult?

 

Becuase it's pretty clear to me that you have no clue.

 

Do you?

[nullCassielle]

No, it's not a popular game because of the problems I stated. However the philosophy of losing being fun is extremely popular. Games have been slowly giving reduced death penalties for a while now. Checkpoints, autosaves, hell some games outright don't penalize you for dying. Or at most give you a slap on the wrist.

 

That's because it means if you lose, you lose very little and can try to figure out that puzzle right from the start.

 

 

 

Don't play dumb. You brought up the idea that you're supposed to win in Warframe and not lose, specifically when I was saying that Warframe should make losing fun, which means, as I have repeated in multiple threads, no losing to multiple staggers, no 'cheap' enemies, player empowerment even when losing, and as little fake difficulty as possible.

 

 

 

That's funny because my argument has stayed constant and the only reason you think there's tangents is that you can't seem to see how they fit together. My argument has consistently been "the difficulty in the game from things like nervos/rollers/ancients is bad because it's unfun difficulty that is extremely bad at providing actual tension because you will either be face-rolling things or getting wrecked, there is no middle ground." It's like EYE Divine Cybermancy's interesting damage system where you can walk through 50 elite cyborgs shooting bullets at you and then get critical hit headshot by a single gangbanger with a SMG and die instantly.

 

Here's a question. How have you deluded yourself into thinking that losing isn't part of the intended gameplay? If losing wasn't intended maybe you wouldn't be able to lose. Clearly, losing some of the time is intended, because there's a Mission Failed screen and there are consequences for failure. In fact, given that Revives can cost money those consequences can sometimes be real cash if you need those revives to, say, play another mission that's hard for you and beat it. Losing is an intended part of the gameplay. It's obviously rare but so are bosses. Does that mean bosses shouldn't be balanced? Does that mean bosses shouldn't be fun? Just because something is rare does not mean it doesn't need to be tweaked to be fun. Given that if someone is losing they're already not going to be terribly sold on the game simply because of the fact that people want to win, saying "it's okay if losing isn't very fun" is awful.

 

 

 

You don't see a real reason why gameplay should be fun? Because losing is part of the gameplay. It's a 'consequence' but all consequences are gameplay. A lot of old-school adventure games could easily be rendered unwinnable if you took the wrong actions and you wouldn't know until hours later. That's also a "consequence" and an "incentive to become better, so that you win the game". Somehow, your boilerplate defense of bad game mechanics falls apart when you apply it then, doesn't it? That's because it was never a good defense to begin with. Nothing in a game should be unfun. If you can't think of a way of making it fun, at least make it as un-annoying as possible. This is a fairly basic game design philosophy. Everything, from character generation to post-mission loot to inventory management, should be as fun as possible. If it can't be made fun make it as un-frustrating as possible.

 

 

 

Says you. People hate stuns and knockdowns for a reason. It's a consequence that almost all modern games use extremely sparingly specifically because of how frustrating loss of agency is in any game. Now, the thing is, yes, they're a valid "consequence", but most games use them extremely sparingly because as soon as they start showing up in huge numbers people very quickly stop thinking of them as valid. And more importantly, the novelty wears off. The Ancient Disruptor's HUD disruption would be less interesting and far more frustrating if every enemy did it, just as a intra-game example.

 

I want to make a distinction here, for the sake of my own mind, because it's a distinction I've been wanting to lay down for AGES.

 

If FUN IS YOUR END GOAL, then strive for fun.

 

There are games (REALLY good games) which were built with the main goal in mind being to beat the player down physically and mentally to the point of collapse. Games like Pathologic, for example. THESE GAMES SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT TO INCORPORATE "FUN". Doing such would be detrimental to the overall effect, and leave them as just crappy games.

 

That said, Warframe isn't part of this category and this doesn't apply here. It's clear the developers are aiming towards FUN through the lens of high risk/reward gameplay strategies.

[nullCassielle]

Do you?

 

Oooh! Pick me!

 

Ahem: because the player is on the same level stat-wise as his/her opponents, and they are often put in tactically superior locations, making every battle a battle of wits. Because of this, as the player internalizes strategies, they become MORE EFFECTIVE in the EXACT same situations where before they were crushed like tiny bugs.

[Caliocerion]

I also think that we should have to wait to take out our primary weapons. They should already be in hand.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Oooh! Pick me!

 

Ahem: because the player is on the same level stat-wise as his/her opponents, and they are often put in tactically superior locations, making every battle a battle of wits. Because of this, as the player internalizes strategies, they become MORE EFFECTIVE in the EXACT same situations where before they were crushed like tiny bugs.

 

That's it!

[Effusion-]

I understand your reasons for disliking stuns and wanting them removed, but without a valid way of removing the Tenno's impressive ability to outrun every single unit in the game, and without a valid way of stopping Tenno from delivering damage while being attacked, the difficulty would spike so sharply downwards that it would not be worth it. A lot of players are already complaining that the game is too easy, while apparently very few seem to think it's too difficult. Making it easier doesn't seem to be the best alternative, and removing stuns completely would drastically reduce the difficulty that these challenge-starved players already deem less than acceptable, and until/unless new ways of difficulty are introduced that maintain the balances already instated in the game, I won't condone ridding the game of stuns completely.

 

Unless I missed something I don't think anyone has suggested getting rid of stuns.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Effusion-

[forest_spirit]

This. This so much.

 

Handspring should be a default ability for all Warframes that everyone has. The animation is pretty cool and all but it shouldn't be a mod.

 

Remove it, give all Warframes the ability to recover from the ground faster, and reimburse everyone a random rare (or a Thunderbolt) IMO.

 

EDIT: I'd make the handspring animation simply "press jump while on the ground". Simple, intuitive, and reasonable.

 

Yeah, you should still get knocked down, but tap jump, and you hop up and there's no delay. 

[CosyPigeon]

I leave this thread alone for a few days, and now people are arguing about Dwarf Fortress. EPIC. o.0

[CY13ERPUNK]

Though I do not agree with OP's argument of it being a way for cash-grab since the mod is obtainable via drops which is random and the purchase of mods via plat is also random,

 

I agree that this should not be a mod but a combat maneuver that requires precision timing in execution instead.

 

yes

[Reaver_X]

yes

 

i agree

[TheSteelPhantom]

Definitely should just be a combat maneuver. No need for the mod. I don't get knocked over enough to even use the mod. Sprinting + jump + crouch = flying kick. Flying Kick = instant knock-down for lame super-enemies w/ knockdowns in the first place.

[NydusTemplar]

The only reason I'd say Handspring Mod over a Timed mechanic is good is because not everyone will have stellar connections or computers.  Having 'Handspring' take effect automatically would be beneficial when, say, your computer is chugging or your connection sucks so you don't have the ability to react to things as well as you should.

 

Frankly, my actual personal beef with Handspring Mod isn't precisely that it allows you to get back up faster, but rather that it only lets you get back up faster.

 

This is a Mod, a mod competing in a very tight race with several other very good mods.  Let's do a quick list, shall we?  Discounting the no brainers like Vitality, Redirection, Fast Deflection, Rush, Continuity, Flow, Focus, Streamline, Reach, you've still got a number of mods which can fill in the available slots which are easily better.

 

Marathon/Quick Rest - Moar Stamina. Faster Stamina Recovery.  Run for Days, never stop running.  This game rewards high mobility like nobody's business, and having the ability to almost never stop running is an amazing boon.  Slap on any fast charging melee weapon and run large infinity patterns eviscerating every Infested or Grineer stupid enough to get close.  They also do well in catching up to those oh so lovely rushing teammates.  Much better than Handspring since you just run away from the enemy before getting hit, never needing to slow down and create the problem.

 

Steel Fiber - Moar Armor.  Yo dawg, I heard you like effective health, so I got you some effective health so you could have health with your health.  Though arguably a less than effective choice given the fact that most tanking frames, when played correctly, never get to the point where health tanking is required, this mod is very useful for those times when you find yourself under the unpleasant tentacle of an Ancient Disruptor and those plucky little Runners are just so eager to slobber all over your face with death love.

 

Best used on warframes with 50 or 100 armor (believe it or not), it means that those unpleasant situations no longer cost you a revive, but instead just make you clench a certain body part while you fumble your way out.  A max level Steel Fiber offers a Rhino/Frost an extra 15.9% damage mitigation, which increases their effective health from 480 to 527.7.  Combine that with a maxed Vitality mod (I can dream) to go from an effective health of 1184 to 1372.  It also increases the value of every health pickup for those two since each 25 health regained is actually worth 43 effective health.

 

Because I did mention it, an Excalibur with a maxed Steel Fiber mod goes from having an effective health (at level 30, with maxed Vitality) of 986 to 1119.  Armor 50 (33.3~% damage mitigation) goes to 51.22% damage mitigation (a value of 17.89% mitigation), which grants more bang for your mod buck over using it on a 150 armor (+15.9%) frame.  Armor 100 goes from 50% to 67.74% (+17.74%) which is almost as good in value as the 50 armor frames.

 

Though a bit mathy, this mod still takes the taco over Handspring since the time where Handspring would be most useful (knocked down by a Disruptor Ancient) is mostly nullified by being that much more tanky.  It also becomes useful when you're surrounded by trigger happy Grineer and currently being stunlocked by Rollers, giving you more health to survive where Handspring isn't helpful.  Handspring might only pull ahead on a frame with Armor 10, since the effective gain is only 8.27%.  Even then, look at the no brainers list.  THERE ARE BETTER CHOICES.

 

About the only place where this mod might genuinely pull ahead is Enemy Sense (though I'd rather have enemies on minimap) and Thief's Wit.  I haven't gotten enough info on Retribution to see if it'll be worth it.

 

Anyway, this mod should really offer something else to make it worth its salt.  I'm having trouble coming up with what that would be, like maybe a counter move to knock back all melee enemies or something, but something.

 

I'll never use this mod.  Ever.  Not in its current state.

[Reaver_X]

just should make it a normal mechanic honestly. its as simple as that

[V0LK]

Agreed. Something so basic to gameplay shouldn't be a optional and rare mod.

[JerryMouse13]

From my point of view the solution to knock downs is, 'don't get knocked down'. Having a mechanic in game to mitigate a punishment for what is generally the result of sloppy play seems silly. There are a very limited number of enemies that have the ability to knock down player characters in game. Heavy Grineer, Ancients, Shockwave moa, and shield Grineer, on top of they can only knock down players in melee range.

 

 

 The entire point of the card is to give those who find the idea of spending a couple of seconds on their back intolerable an option to reduce the punishment aspect of knock downs. Not to implement a 'basic gameplay mechanic'.

Edited May 9, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[Tetsmeha]

The mod isn't a new mechanic it just shortens the time you're knocked down. It's literally the same as attack speed mods in that it makes animations faster.

[mhd995]

I'd rather see a knockdown immunity (you are instead staggered?) mod with Handspring being the default for all frames. Getting knocked off your feet just completely breaks the action flow and can get pretty ridiculous once you're locked into place for a good five or more seconds.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I'd rather see a knockdown immunity (you are instead staggered?) mod with Handspring being the default for all frames. Getting knocked off your feet just completely breaks the action flow and can get pretty ridiculous once you're locked into place for a good five or more seconds.

 

Stunlocks like that are a problem, but it shouldn't be a mod that fixes them, it needs to be a core game mechanic. Either some sort of immunity for a certain short period after being stunned or a diminishing return for consecutive stuns. It's okay for me to get stunned again right after I get knocked down by 2nd shockwave Moa, but only if I'm given an opportunity to escape prior to the 1st time, because that's my error.

[mhd995]

I was thinking something along the lines of tapping shift as you are launched to do a quick recover/roll, and pressing jump in case you're already on the floor to jump back up quickly. Fail both of these and you default to just standing up like what we have now. Obviously the quick recover/roll would be best but I doubt you'd get it everytime due to relatively little time you have before you're face down on the floor.

[Furyion]

have to agree ..shouldn't be a mod.

[KrAyZy]

Good idea.

[Caliocerion]

I remember in S4 League that whenever you were hit by a knock back attack (heavy melee or railgun shot) you flew back a few meters, but in that time if you had at least half of your energy you could do a dodge and escape being knocked down and taking wall slam damage.

[Effusion-]

How about after getting staggered/stunned/knocked down you're given brief immunity to further CC (like the time it takes you to recover + 0.5s), but effects that you resist do heavy shield damage instead?

Edited May 9, 2013 by Effusion-

[CosyPigeon]

How about after getting staggered/stunned/knocked down you're given brief immunity to further CC (like the time it takes you to recover + 0.5s), but effects that you resist do heavy shield damage instead?

 

Maybe if warframe was a side scrolling beat em up. Doesn't really fit with the whole 3rd person action thing, and since you get staggered so often, getting mobbed by chargers would ironically make you nearly invulnerable. 

[neKroMancer]

Looking at the short vid comparing knockdown with/without handspring in the first few page, I must say that it's not as impressive as I expect it to be. While I agree that ukemi/kip up should be a basic manuveour for all frames, handspring should be more than a mod that shorten the animation. It's too similar to fury (attack speed mod) for my liking.

I don't think it's a cash grab scheme or anything but sinmply, it's not a mod that I would equip consider that the last time I got knocked down was a long time ago. If it adds a short range attack during the recovery period then it'd be better but in the current state - I found it a bit useless.