The Manic, Is A Stage Towards Anti Progression

[JHarlequin]

 I have had a few experiences with the manic.  He either isn't working right or he does have a one hit kill.  A few times he has knocked me down and slapped me, but it never digs too far into my hp.  With lower shields and hp he probably would kill, hence an above comment about Valkyr.  There probably isn't much of a way to keep him from doing everything Valkyr has.

 

 But several other times, I keep moving I avoid his dash, then he just dissapears and reappears hopping towards me and suddenly I drop dead.  He didn't knock me down and slap me, he didn't hit two or three times.  Just one hop that I see him in the air with some sparkles behind him, meaning he hopped out of his invisibility.  That one hop and then 680 shields and 480 life apparently didn't save me and I drop instantly.

 

 When I do just shoot him, usually he goes down after a few hits.  But sometimes he avoids as many shots as I have to avoid him.  The fact that I do want to finish getting scans on him is my biggest problem right now.  (Don't suggest any sort of crowd control, I already know and don't care because it's a bad argument).  This enemy isn't exactly anti-progression as the thread is titled, but he is not exactly a challenge when his attacks aren't working right.  He evades too well to also be able to go invisible and attack from point blank range at any time.  He has one shot me.  No other explanation behind that, so if he is meant to do that, we need some news.  If he isn't meant to do that, then we need to know so we can figure out what is causing the problem.

 

 He is just another hassle in the game, not a challenge because he has a combination of abilities that can't regularly be countered by any reasonable play.

[Public_Stalker]

Everybody keeps calling her a she, it sounds nothing like a he if you don't have a hearing problem.

[[DE]Artarrwen]

You complain about the game asking you of more than just fat stats. Oh my...
Truly, how dare a third-person shooter require any basic movement and aiming skills to play it, it was clearly designed around "whose numbers are greater" rather than actual shooter mechanics. How dare a constantly evolving game introduce a completely new unit to liven up the gameplay and how dare the developers expect the players to adapt and think. God forbid!
Ugh.

[GhostSwordsman]

Roller not so good by the way, with Manic >.>

 

personally I find melee with fast hitting weapons with some Corrosive or Viral (can't recall which I used, think Corrosive) while making sure to just move in circles around him does pretty good, after the first time when he kicked my !. I was using my Kronen blades. Goes down pretty fast with that.

I was referring to the Tenno specters you can build. The ones whose blueprints drop from rescue 2.0 missions. Anyone even remember those?

 

The Tenno specters are 10 times more useful than any of the sndicate specters.

[Bug24]

I don't agree with OPost but I think the manics are a bit OP. Enemies should not be able to cloak themselves. I don't play grineer because of the manic. He's extremely fast-- faster than Tenno-- and has the ability to cloak. Sounds a bit like Loki, the number one trollframe in the game.

 

TL;DR:

Manic is like Loki. Loki is often used by trolls. The manic is a troll.

[EmptyDevil]

I don't agree with OPost but I think the manics are a bit OP. Enemies should not be able to cloak themselves. I don't play grineer because of the manic. He's extremely fast-- faster than Tenno-- and has the ability to cloak. Sounds a bit like Loki, the number one trollframe in the game.

TL;DR:

Manic is like Loki. Loki is often used by trolls. The manic is a troll.

His cloak and speed are completely fine. Would just be a butcher reskin if he didn't have either.

Edited March 23, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[Newominus]

You can just melee block his attack and then counterattack him, he'll never kill you. Although when I do this he takes a huge, lengthy stagger coupled with invincibility, and teleports somewhere else.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Newominus

[Bug24]

His cloak and speed are completely fine. Would just be a butcher reskin if he didn't have either.

No. I'm in design council and thought this enemy would be cool but when I first saw him in game, I died inside. Get rid of his stealth. The grineer are not as intelligent as the tenno, therefore, they should not be as strong. Nor should they have the same technologies.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Bug24

[Bug24]

You can just melee block his attack and then counterattack him, he'll never kill you.

Meanwhile, for a player who rarely uses blocking...

[EmptyDevil]

No. I'm in design council and thought this enemy would be cool but when I first saw him in game, I died inside. Get rid of his stealth. The grineer are not as intelligent as the tenno, therefore, they should be weaker.

 

I don't care what you're in. He is fine the way he is. It doesn't take more than 1 brain cell to deal with him. You basically just sound like you're complaining because a decent enemy can become invisible when he isn't attacking you. Keyphrase being isn't attacking you. When it does go in to attack you, you'll see it.

Edited March 23, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[Newominus]

Meanwhile, for a player who rarely uses blocking...

Well ye better start using blocking then huh.

[NickBoay]

The Manic, is a stage towards ANTI PROGRESSION.

This unit is a stone cold mechanical copy of the Payday 2 Ghost. It's one of the big reasons i quit PayDay 2. Firstly, this almost completely throws SINGLE PLAYER into the trashcan. People who have bad connections or prefer to play alone are being f###ed the hardest (they dont have AI buddies). And secondly, theyre ANTI PROGRESSION. I would understand this kind of enemy in a game like Left 4 Dead where you dont need to level up and you always have teammates, but not here.

 

Why does it kill progression you ask?

Because of the same reason in PayDay2: What if i create the most Tankiest build i can, with the maximum armor, completely minmaxed to the pinnacle, after spending years of playing a game Leveling Up, Earning that Gear, Earning and ranking all the skills and the mods in this case, to be a slow, heavily armored Tank...only to be one-hit KO'd by a skinny weak enemy....and then you just insert an Instant-Kill mechanic that completely ignores and disregards the whole point of a leveling up system and ranking anything and having any kind of armor or shield.

The Instant-Kill or Permanent-Stunlock-Until-Death enemy DOES NOT BELONG IN A GAME WITH  SUCH STEEP PROGRESSION.

Currently, a level 1 Manic can kill a 6 Forma'd level 30 Valkyr with Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Steel Fiber, and allll the other tanky mods put together. THIS IS WRONG. Its ANTI PROGRESSION and it's ANTI WARFRAME.

 

THOSE KINDS OF GAME MECHANICS DO NOT BELONG HERE.

i agree that his dmg is over 9000, and his hp also he is not well scaled yet for the level of the map he is found in, other then that the tactic to beating him is simple , hold block parry him , hit back , or spam abilities on him that dont require you to aim the target.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I don't care what you're in. He is fine the way he is. It doesn't take more than 1 brain cell to deal with him. You basically just sound like you're complaining because a decent enemy can become invisible when he isn't attacking you. Keyphrase being isn't attacking you. When it does go in to attack you, you'll see it.

 

The problem isn't his invisibility, it's the fact that he has invulnerability phases for seemingly no reason and that he heals to full health every time he cloaks. Neither of these are particularly necessary or valuable given how fast he is and how he can instantly go invisible, and combined they do nothing but turn what would otherwise be an interesting fight into a slog.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Bug24]

Well ye better start using blocking then huh.

I rarely use melee.

[EmptyDevil]

The problem isn't his invisibility, it's the fact that he has invulnerability phases for seemingly no reason and that he heals to full health every time he cloaks. Neither of these are particularly necessary or valuable given how fast he is and how he can instantly go invisible.

 

He doesn't fully heal each time he goes invisible. I've tested on lv65 versions of these in Simulacrum and they are still easy to kill if you know what you're doing. The invulnerable phase is a slight annoyance but it's nice having a mob that has us switch up the monotonous playstyle. 

[BluelitHalo]

While I'm in agreement that instakill should be removed, I still see Manic as a sign of a positive trend to Warframe. In a game where anhillating armies of enemies is its bread and butter, having a few "specialists" can bring the nice, reasonable challenge that Warframe has been missing for a long while. Basically the idea of Manics/Nullifiers/Mutalist is fine, but their execution should be fine tuned if neccesary (spawn rate, general power, counterplay in the form of telegraphed attacks and player avoidability, etc.)

Edited March 23, 2015 by Sonitorum

[Cpl_Facehugger]

He doesn't fully heal each time he goes invisible. I've tested on lv65 versions of these in Simulacrum and they are still easy to kill if you know what you're doing. The invulnerable phase is a slight annoyance but it's nice having a mob that has us switch up the monotonous playstyle. 

 

Really? I've only fought him in normal missions, so I guess it only looks like he fully heals.

Even so, the heal and invulnerability phase are both completely superflous and do nothing but prolong fights with him while you wait for his magic energy shield to run out or while you whittle down his health and do more DPS than his heal ability like he was some kind of jRPG boss. It's not like there's any skill-based anything here, it's just pure tedium.

The unique things about the manic are his speed, his cloak, and his ability to pounce on a tenno. This is what makes him an interesting thing to fight. He moves around like a rabbit on crack, he can turn invisible to keep you from shooting him, and he's punishing if you let him get close without having a melee out to block with. This is as it should be.

 

He's also hard to CC, which is fine for an enemy who only shows up singly. Again, great design so far.

 

But the healing and the i-frames are terrible. There's no skill required to beat those parts of him, it's pure DPS/waiting for the invulnerability timer to run out. He's plenty strong enough with just the cloak and speed. The other things don't do anything but make what would otherwise be a fun encounter into something tedious to fight. Because yeah it's so fun to corner a manic with your scindo and start hacking away only to find that he's invincible herp derp.

 

So I don't think the manic is fine at all. At the core the design is good, but it needs the invincibility and preferably the healing gone to be truly fun to fight.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[EmptyDevil]

While I'm in agreement that instakill should be removed, I still see Manic as a sign of a positive trend to Warframe. In a game where anhillating armies of enemies is its bread and butter, having a few "specialists" can bring the nice, reasonable challenge that Warframe has been missing for a long while. Basically the idea of Manics/Nullifiers is fine, but their execution should be fine tuned if neccesary (spawn rate, general power, etc.)

 

Agreed. Except i don't believe the Manic has an instant kill. The Manic is a specialist mob done right but the Nullifier could have been tweaked a bit more for people that favor snipers and bows.

[shut]

It's not exactly hard to dodge. Hell, it's designed to be moderately easy to dodge, and simply punishing if you aren't able to avoid it.

 

Getting one-shotted by a level 1 Lancer who fires twenty hitscan bullets per second from across maps would be one thing.

Getting one-shotted by a single, slow, obvious attack from a single enemy that cackles for half a minute to alert you of its presence is a different matter entirely. Frankly, if you stand still long enough to let a level 1 manic pin you down, you deserve to lose that Revive.

Edited March 23, 2015 by SortaRandom

[EmptyDevil]

Really? I've only fought him in normal missions, so I guess it only looks like he fully heals.

Even so, the heal and invulnerability phase are both completely superflous and do nothing but prolong fights with him while you wait for his magic energy shield to run out or while you whittle down his health and do more DPS than his heal ability like he was some kind of jRPG boss. It's not like there's any skill-based anything here, it's just pure tedium.

The unique things about the manic are his speed, his cloak, and his ability to pounce on a tenno. This is what makes him an interesting thing to fight. He moves around like a rabbit on crack, he can turn invisible to keep you from shooting him, and he's punishing if you let him get close without having a melee out to block with. This is as it should be.

 

He's also hard to CC, which is fine for an enemy who only shows up singly. Again, great design so far.

 

But the healing and the i-frames are terrible. There's no skill required to beat those parts of him, it's pure DPS/waiting for the invulnerability timer to run out. He's plenty strong enough with just the cloak and speed. The other things don't do anything but make what would otherwise be a fun encounter into something tedious to fight. Because yeah it's so fun to corner a manic with your scindo and start hacking away only to find that he's invincible herp derp.

 

So I don't think the manic is fine at all. At the core the design is good, but it needs the invincibility and preferably the healing gone to be truly fun to fight.

 

His invulnerability is very brief and he seems to only use this to teleport away, after that he can be hurt again. So it's not like he is just turning invulnerable while he has the opportunity to tear you to shreds. If his invulnerability must go, then i'd like for him to remain tanky or to be given more health/armor so he isn't just some 1 shot wonder.

[V0LK]

Challenging is one thing, complete broken and cheap is another.

 

He's invisible AND invincible AND teleporting while he's invisible, so you cannot predict his movement. Then he spawns from behind and mount your face and you can't do anything. You can't counter that either with skill nor ability. No telegraphing. Insta Kill. All joy. 

THAT'S BROKEN AND CHEAP. YOU DON'T DO THAT FFS! There's absolutely zero fun in watching your warframe die before your eyes and be unable to do anything about it.

 

Idea is great - I won't argue, but execution is all over the place. it looks like it's done by people who kinda saw gameplay but never actually played it.

 

To be constructive:

-remove invincibility

-remove invisible teleporting

-allow us to brake free from a pounce somehow(not by a f*ckin rare mod)

Edited March 23, 2015 by V0LK

[bl4ckhunter]

By the way, if you know how to dodge an enemy, the manic isn't an instant kill, He could MAYBE be an instant kill on a 15 armor frame with low mods that isn't dodging very good, but otherwise he's not a problem. But then again, a ton of other enemies are 1 hit kills on frames that are heavily loaded at higher levels if you don't know how to dodge.

ahem no, when he decides he's going to do the grappling lunge he's gonna do it and you're gonna die, trust me he jumped on me mid air with zephir, knocked me down, still mid-air, and proceded to do that histeria like finisher till i was dead and then, only then, my corpse fell in the pit, hell, dante from the dmc series would be envious of the grinner maniac enemy juggling skills

[(PSN)gino1313]

The same thing kind of happened in pvp, where certain stances could stun lock you into oblivion. Usually rolling a lot gets out of that. I'm on console so I can't test this on him, but you should try it.

[EmptyDevil]

 

Challenging is one thing, complete broken and cheap is another.

 

He's invisible AND invincible AND teleporting while he's invisible, so you cannot predict he's movement. Then he spawn from behind and mount your face and you can't do anything. You can't counter that either with skill nor ability.THAT'S BROKEN AND CHEAP. YOU DON'T DO THAT FFS! There's absolutely zero fun in watching your warframe die before your eyes and be unable to do anything about it.

 

Idea is great - I won't argue, but execution is all over the place. it looks like it's done by people who kinda saw gameplay but never actually played it.

 

To be constructive:

-remove invincibility

-remove invisible teleporting

-allow us to brake free from a pounce somehow(not by a f*ckin rare mod)

 

 

So you basically want a butcher with a Manic skin? It isn't invincible all the time as you're implying, it uses that phase to escape and return. When it is invisible you can still see it from the red glow of the eyes on it's back. It never attacks you from behind unless you turned around as it's running at you.

[bl4ckhunter]

The same thing kind of happened in pvp, where certain stances could stun lock you into oblivion. Usually rolling a lot gets out of that. I'm on console so I can't test this on him, but you should try it.

chain stun-locking is one thing, the maniac plays a single grappling animation with no gaps on anything and you can't move at all during the whole thing until you're dead