No Un-Banning After Second Incident?

[Eisvogel]

I feel like people see the name "CheatEngine" and jump to conclusions. There are many legitmate uses for the functions the program provides and it's been proven that the program has no effect on Warframe data.

 

It should be removed from the blacklist. Plain and simple.

 

It shouldn't, plain and simple.

 

You can also avoid running it while playing warframe... so... yeah

[Drusus]

Unfortunately, a large portion of readers will now jump on this fact to claim that you are a filthy cheater and deserve to be banned from the internet because there are no legitimate uses for a program capable of modifying other programs.

 

There are no legitimate reasons to have that program running when it's a known trigger because it would be capable of doing immense damage to the game and the trust of the game community that plays it.  

 

There are many legitimate reasons to have all sorts of programs.  This is a pro-active measure to greatly restrict the ability of people to hack the game and do damage to the play environment and put the data of the game, its' players and DE itself at risk.

 

I make no aspersions of being a 'filthy cheater' in my assessment that Gryphticon's clanmate is rightfully banned.  He violated the requirements of interaction with the game, twice, either deliberately or through carelessness.  And in reading the original post  (hard to tell from the phrasing) it reads like the person in question has the skills to pose a threat and has indeed been giving a second chance that was wasted.

 

Two repeat attempts within 48 hours?

 

Accidental or not, the subject of the ban has invited the result through their actions.

 

Sorry Gryph, your clan mate messed up rather spectacularly here and DE can't just ignore the repercussions of treating the violation lightly.

[Ashmomo]

It shouldn't, plain and simple.

 

You can also avoid running it while playing warframe... so... yeah

 

Why shouldn't it? If it offers /absolutely no advantage in any way, shape, or form/ why are people getting banned for running it?

[Drusus]

Why shouldn't it? If it offers /absolutely no advantage in any way, shape, or form/ why are people getting banned for running it?

 

Because as a hex editor it represents a threat to the game integrity if allowed to run and observe the game in process?

 

And there are many ways a skilled programmer could mask various operations to allow it to do so unless it was a hard line to prevent concurrent running and simply establish it as a non-starter for maintaining access to the game service?

[Valkyrie9001]

 

I'm not banned, my clan mate is.

 

Here's his quote

 

 

 

 

 

There's no point in banning for cheat engine, before the cheat update, my friend which is a programmer tried to hack and the data is clearly in the database. That is for the credits and platinum.

 

 

No. He deserves it.

[Bearclaw]

Personally this is just a stupid way to do cheat detection... Any smart person with intention to hack would not do it with a simple program like CheatEngine while the game is running...

 

I suggest putting some effort into cheat detection like Valve does with VAC and remove the hindrance that affects legit players more than cheaters.

[NinjaMelaza]

Second accident? yeah, sure...and he pay $300 and use cheat  too?  ROFL

[smithf]

in an attempt to be helpful, try the following to automatically kill certain processes when you start some process(for windows).

E.g. say I want kill all notepad.exe processes before I start notepad++.

create a batch(text) file, (e.g.  "start_notepad++.bat")
Use a text editor on the file and put in the following content (replace the paths with those appropriate to your system)

wmic process where name='notepad.exe' deletepath/to/notepad++/notepad++.exe

In the future, if you use this batch file to start notepad++, it will first kill all instances of notepad.exe.

Now, just replace the notepad.exe with the name of your "blacklisted" apps, and replace the entire path of notepad++.exe with Warframe's executable.
Use this batch file in the future and there will be no more "forgot to close black-listed app" issue.

Hope this is useful to some people. :)

[Quetzhal]

And there are many ways a skilled programmer could mask various operations to allow it to do so unless it was a hard line to prevent concurrent running and simply establish it as a non-starter for maintaining access to the game service?

Why not just stop the game from running if Cheat Engine is also running (and close it if CE starts up), and ban the player if they somehow circumvent that and have the game running concurrently with CE? (Basically not different from the current system but with something additional to reduce false positives).

I'm not being sarcastic or anything. It's a genuine question due to a lack of programming knowledge on my part.

[TraumaHunter]

I really wish people would stop complaining about it.

Its written in the EULA.  You signed those TOS.

You were GIVEN A SECOND CHANCE.  You don't realize how long that would take for any mega company to handle (months sometimes).  Most of the time you would be told "tough luck" and sent out on your bum.

This company  was GENEROUS enough to give you a second chance even though you signed an agreement that said you wouldn't run such programs at the same time.  They did it in a timely fashion I'm certain.

And here we are now.

Because some people just don't learn.  I get that mistakes happen.  But honestly they are WELL within their boundaries to not allow you back into the game.  Time to move on.

[Drusus]

Why not just stop the game from running if Cheat Engine is also running (and close it if CE starts up), and ban the player if they somehow circumvent that and have the game running concurrently with CE? (Basically not different from the current system but with something additional to reduce false positives).

I'm not being sarcastic or anything. It's a genuine question due to a lack of programming knowledge on my part.

 

In short?  Simply not as reliable and more easily manipulated on the client side.

 

If I had to guess how this is working the thing detecting cheat engine is not solely the client itself but it's detecting information when the actual server side connections go live.

 

Everything you are talking about is client side (resident on the machine).  I would expect that the actual 'detect' is happening in conjunction with server side communication and that's where the ban trigger resides, expressly to circumvent client side manipulation.

 

Keep in mind, the moment the client is trying to be made to do things differently in conjunction with other programs on the computer, that's virus like activity on the part of the game. :)  And that also has a lot of legal ramifications in terms of the program doing unauthorized things to your computer if it has to be an active scan and inveigle into other parts to execute that block reliably.

 

The method DE is using is a simple pass/fail system that can be navigated by a remote required connection, I suspect.

 

Talk to the server and report what's running.  If you match these danger cases? DENIED.

 

Legally and technologically, it's the clean path for them to work with I expect.

 

Please note, I'm speculating on the structure here at some length, but if my understanding is even close (or close to how I would have approached this model) the reasoning is sound.

 

Hope that gives some context Q.

[Quetzhal]

Ah, yep, fair enough! Thanks for that explanation.

...I'll admit that my biggest takeaway was "Inveigle is a word? awesome", but I do get it nevertheless. XD

[The_Lunatic_]

There should definately be a warning screen before you start the game with those programs running.

 

It's all down to mistakes, stupid or not, very few people are intentionally running cheat engine while playing Warframe.

 

And, while it's definately on the player to be aware that this game will perma-ban you for having two unrelated programs running, accidents are going to happen.

 

 

Added to that, it's vital you have more respect for your paying customers or long time users than to just instantly ban them without investigation.

 

That's just poor form.

[Blatantfool]

There should definately be a warning screen before you start the game with those programs running.

 

 

 

 Doing something like this, as in having the game outright tell you it sees a bad program, would help cheaters more then legitimate players.

 

 They'd be able to use it to poke and prod the system until whatever they are using can work unnoticed. It'd make the process of working out a way to cheat that DE can't detect much faster,

[TraumaHunter]

There should definately be a warning screen before you start the game with those programs running.

 

It's all down to mistakes, stupid or not, very few people are intentionally running cheat engine while playing Warframe.

 

And, while it's definately on the player to be aware that this game will perma-ban you for having two unrelated programs running, accidents are going to happen.

 

 

Added to that, it's vital you have more respect for your paying customers or long time users than to just instantly ban them without investigation.

 

That's just poor form.

They are not UNRELATED programs.

If they were TRULY unrelated programs I have a feeling they wouldn't be handing out bans for running them at the same time.

they don't ban you without investigation.  The investigation information is sent via a report after you log in with the programs running.  If you inquire with support they will tell you EXACTLY why you were banned.  The investigation is done and over with.  The fact is you signed a EULA/TOS that said you wouldn't run those programs.  You did.  You were found guilty of running those programs at the same time.  They did not have to find you guilty of "attempting to hex values" or anything of that nature - finding out exactly what is done to the game requires LOTS of manpower and LOTS of money for those systems to be built in place.  Time and money better spent helping the 99.999999999% of players who can follow the rules of the EULA they signed.  

Again - you were given a second chance.  This is worlds more than you would get from any other company - you need to just take those threats of banning more seriously for future games.

 

[-Sparhawk-]

I really wish people would stop complaining about it.

Its written in the EULA.  You signed those TOS.

You were GIVEN A SECOND CHANCE.  You don't realize how long that would take for any mega company to handle (months sometimes).  Most of the time you would be told "tough luck" and sent out on your bum.

This company  was GENEROUS enough to give you a second chance even though you signed an agreement that said you wouldn't run such programs at the same time.  They did it in a timely fashion I'm certain.

And here we are now.

Because some people just don't learn.  I get that mistakes happen.  But honestly they are WELL within their boundaries to not allow you back into the game.  Time to move on.

 

+1

 

I'm glad DE is using whatever measures it can to reduce the impact of players looking to exploit hacks, and script kiddies. Play legit, or don't play at all.

 

Regarding whether s/he used it for legitimate purposes or not, that's exactly where the problem lies. I don't know of any cheater who has ever admitted to it when caught cheating, or in the process of trying to find a way to cheat. They always use these tools that can potentially be used to hack a game for "other purposes." 

 

Sorry, you reap what you sow. If someone is afraid of getting banned but insist on using tools like these for "other purposes," then s/he should at least have the sense to make sure it's turned off before loading up the game. There's no reason to increase the risk of the game getting hacked just because a few of these legit users can't remember to turn their cheatengine software off before playing.

[DetergentPod]

I think a better way to solve this would be to have Warframe automatically close if it detects Cheat Engine and not open again till Cheat Engine is closed. The DE can also do something as a Temporary ban. First time it happens you are banned for a Day, then a Week, then a Month, then perm ban.

I know that mistakes like accidentally opening a program you don't intend to open can happen. As a matter of fact it happens many times for me.

I try to open CMD or Firefox from my task bar and instead it opens Window Media player. Mainly because they're all so close to each other I sometime misclick.

The only reason I'm feeling a bit of sympathy for his clanmate is because of the fact that he spent 300 dollars on this game. I would be discourage as well if I spent 300 dollars on a game and accidentally open a program and got banned for it. However if it was intentional then he deserve to be IP banned instead.

Whether it was an accident or intentional only God would know. I do think that there should be temporary bans before a perm ban. 

I myself have Cheat Engine on this PC though I rarely use it.

[TraumaHunter]

I think a better way to solve this would be to have Warframe automatically close if it detects Cheat Engine and not open again till Cheat Engine is closed. The DE can also do something as a Temporary ban. First time it happens you are banned for a Day, then a Week, then a Month, then perm ban.

I know that mistakes like accidentally opening a program you don't intend to open can happen. As a matter of fact it happens many times for me.

I try to open CMD or Firefox from my task bar and instead it opens Window Media player. Mainly because they're all so close to each other I sometime misclick.

The only reason I'm feeling a bit of sympathy for his clanmate is because of the fact that he spent 300 dollars on this game. I would be discourage as well if I spent 300 dollars on a game and accidentally open a program and got banned for it. However if it was intentional then he deserve to be IP banned instead.

Whether it was an accident or intentional only God would know. I do think that there should be temporary bans before a perm ban. 

I myself have Cheat Engine on this PC though I rarely use it.

A: IP bans are nothing to anyone who knows anything about cheats.

B: "automatically closing warframe if xyz is running"  Another easy work around to anyone knowing what they are doing.

The only solution to preventing cheating is a cut throat one.  The reason cheating hasn't leaked its way into this game is because of policies like the one in place.

The games that "temp ban" and are "more lenient to 'false' positives" are the games that HAVE cheaters.  The more breathing room you give people - the more quickly they will find their way into the system and start getting around the anti-cheat systems.

[DetergentPod]

A: IP bans are nothing to anyone who knows anything about cheats.

B: "automatically closing warframe if xyz is running"  Another easy work around to anyone knowing what they are doing.

The only solution to preventing cheating is a cut throat one.  The reason cheating hasn't leaked its way into this game is because of policies like the one in place.

The games that "temp ban" and are "more lenient to 'false' positives" are the games that HAVE cheaters.  The more breathing room you give people - the more quickly they will find their way into the system and start getting around the anti-cheat systems.

I understand your point of view since I myself hate hackers. I just hope the DE improves the hack detection system so that things like accidents won't happen, Since we have to listen to both sides of the story. Assuming the person was innocent and spent 300 dollars on the game and was banned for it unintentionally. If you put yourself in that position you would understand how that person feels. I know he was given a second chance and blew it, but if it was an accident then it's quite saddening to me.

[Trivel]

I use cheat engine for mutiple games usually for starting money, ive had no issue so far... knock on wood. its easy to open up your task manager to see if cheat engine is running before you start warframe. if you use it alot get into the habit of checking TM before your play.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Trivel

[The_Lunatic_]

 Doing something like this, as in having the game outright tell you it sees a bad program, would help cheaters more then legitimate players.

 

 They'd be able to use it to poke and prod the system until whatever they are using can work unnoticed. It'd make the process of working out a way to cheat that DE can't detect much faster,

 

Yeah, totally, cause running a program called "Cheat Engine", you're totally gonna be amazed to find they're blocking it.

 

Don't be silly. I doubt anyone running "Cheat Engine" intentionally is thinking "Oh, yeah, they totally won't be expecting this".

 

They are not UNRELATED programs.

If they were TRULY unrelated programs I have a feeling they wouldn't be handing out bans for running them at the same time.

they don't ban you without investigation.  The investigation information is sent via a report after you log in with the programs running.  If you inquire with support they will tell you EXACTLY why you were banned.  The investigation is done and over with.  The fact is you signed a EULA/TOS that said you wouldn't run those programs.  You did.  You were found guilty of running those programs at the same time.  They did not have to find you guilty of "attempting to hex values" or anything of that nature - finding out exactly what is done to the game requires LOTS of manpower and LOTS of money for those systems to be built in place.  Time and money better spent helping the 99.999999999% of players who can follow the rules of the EULA they signed.  

Again - you were given a second chance.  This is worlds more than you would get from any other company - you need to just take those threats of banning more seriously for future games.

 

 

Unrelated.

 

As in, not interacting with CE.

 

CE only interacts with programs if you tell it to do so.

 

Therefore, in its default state, it is unrelated.

 

Any other questions?

 

Yes, they banned me without investigation, I'd know this, having "Beta tested" the ban system. So, please actually know what you're talking about before you do so. There was no investigation, they unbanned me due to "We're getting a lot of reports of this happening due to players not paying attention, please be sure to check in future, we'll give you a second chance this time".

 

That's it, not "We checked your account and found no evidence of wrong doing".

 

Not "We checked the mission logs and found nothing suspicious".

 

Simply "We're hearing this a lot".

 

Yeah, sounds like a good system they have going, we should just completely ignore any suggestions to improve it and parrot things that aren't working.

 

 

Nice thinking.

 

 

Games take a lot of manpower, this is absolutely correct.

 

Know what takes a lot of manpower? Resolving support tickets of people not hacking the game and getting banned.

 

Clearly, it's better for all involved to actually have a system that prevents that.

[ZHui]

He made the same mistake twice.

[Flaming_Snake]

First time accidentally banned, shame on them.

 

Second time "accidentally" banned, shame on you for being an idiot and not paying more attention. You got your second chance, so you want a third? Not how life works.

[Inquisitioner]

.This is an excellent reason for not investing $250 into a single game that is still working out its bugs, thank you gryphticon

 

Looks like someone is trying to justify their reason for not supporting the game, lol.

[Eisvogel]

Looks like someone is trying to justify their reason for not supporting the game, lol.

 

lmao... the laughs you can get at forums sometimes.... +1 good sir and thank you for the brief fun :3