Loki And Nova Are Too Op. They Must Be Nerfed

[LordRaine]

Once again, the Obex is only a weak weapon if you treat it like a Dakra. 

It's a weak weapon no matter how you treat it. It's sustained DPS is terrible, it can't kill easily, and it can't copter. Those are the only two requirements for a good melee weapon, and it fails both of them. 

 

Melee was already inferior to gunplay prior to the removal of Charge Attacks. With them dead and the flop that was Sword Alone, there is literally no reason to choose melee over gunplay if you're actually trying to play the game, as it is a strict downgrade in both damage dealt and effectiveness at dealing with enemies, and it offers no rewards to incentivise it or make up for the blatant handicap of using it. 

 

So even the best melee weapon is now inferior to most mid-range guns. And the Obex isn't one of the best melee weapons.

 

Literally the only factor that actually matters right now is whether or not it can copter. And it can't. And even if we lived in a world where that wasn't the only factor that matters, it still couldn't compete. 

 

It's weak. You can't do anything to not make it weak.

 

But speed because you want to hurry up and get the mission over with isn't.

I already asked you to explain why people should spend any more time than necessary wandering around a level, and you completely ignored the issue I raised. That would be a Contradiction, i.e. simply refuting the point without providing any evidence or argument as to why.

 

Why should I not want to hurry up and get the mission over with? What incentive do I have?

Edited March 29, 2015 by LordRaine

[ThePresident777]

The Obex and Kogake are a lot of fun, like a clown nose.  It's fun for just flipping all over the place, knocking everything down.  Not killing much, but making it hard for your team to shoot anything because the enemy is flying all over the place like bowling pins in a hurricane.  It's hilarious, like a clown nose.  It can only get better when done as invisible loki, just after disarming everything for that stunned "OMG WHY AM I HOLDING A STICK????" look on the enemy.  Throw in mprime to freeze that stupid look in time and some boom pow poof for maximum hilarity.  Exploding bowling pins, priceless, like a clown nose.  Clown noses are fun.  They are highly recommended.

Edited March 29, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Bobtm]

 Why should I not want to hurry up and get the mission over with? What incentive do I have?

 

This all boils down to a difference in players themselves.  It's clear as day from your posting that you're a purist achiever.  For you the only thing that matters in a game is some form of tangible reward, anything else is senseless.  But are you the only player in the game?

 

With players of your mindset there is a certain inevitible outcome where you begin to see the game's actual gameplay as nothing more than a chore.  Something barring you from the goals you hold in such high regard.

 

To take a turn here, I'll speak from my own perpsective on this now.  I prefer speeding through missions as well, however not to the same method nor degree or for the same reasons as you/your player type.  On the contrary, I actually tend to take my time on missions when the chance does arise (ie I never take my time when others rush, I refuse to be a burden) so that usually occurs in solo play.  To me the incentive for this is learning, because I'm not an achiever.  Rather I fall into the explorer category of player, also in a purist/extremist way.

 

Exploring the parts of various tilesets is a reward in knowledge and nothing more than that for someone like me.  Outside of the type of player you and I are, there are other player categories still.  Each having their own reasons for doing the things they do.

 

To note another point within your post in regards to melee weapons;

 

 Literally the only factor that actually matters right now is whether or not it can copter. And it can't. And even if we lived in a world where that wasn't the only factor that matters, it still couldn't compete. 

 

This too speaks to the point I'm making here.  As a purist achiever you solely care and only care for absolute efficiency in all things.

 

Thing is, as I already insinuated, there are other sub-sects of gamers who all play games.  The underlined part in the above quote is not a fact, rather it's an opinion.  Specifically being an extremist one at that.  Beyond this, there are very efficient ways to utilize melee within Warframe currently that doesn't revolve around "coptering all day erry day".

 

There is something to be said for the Obex's utility aspects for sure.  It allows for an alternate approach to combat which can be a nice change of pace.  Beyond that the weapon's damage is managable given the way in which it works.

_______________________

 

All in all though, where does this fall in-line contextually with the situation regarding the current balance related discussion?  It's about how your viewpoint is heavily biased and skewed due to the type of player you are.

 

For your player type, active gameplay is actually held to a lower regard of importance compared to the aquisition of goals.  Of course goals are an important part of gameplay, but one must understand that gamers will also want to actually play a game as well.  Not just hit a button and automatically get a treat.

[HibikiGanaha]

I came back to this thread to see if sidestream responded to me.  I'm not going to read the rest of the thread, but I really have no clue how you went from discussing loki and nova to obex and coptering.

[LordRaine]

This all boils down to a difference in players themselves.  It's clear as day from your posting that you're a purist achiever.  For you the only thing that matters in a game is some form of tangible reward, anything else is senseless.  But are you the only player in the game?

I'm not even remotely a purist achiever. 

 

I just see no reason to do something that is not fun. Why should I engage in unfun things? Why should I do something painful that also does not reward me for doing it? I get nothing out of fighting Grineer or Corpus. It doesn't reward me. It isn't fun. So what's my incentive? DE doesn't give me one, so I move past them and just get the mission over with. 

 

Warframe is a game about grinding. There is very, very little actual fun in the entire game to be found. Most of that is in Archwing, ironically enough. If someone asked me "I'm looking for a fun game to play, should I play Warframe?," my answer would be "no, you shouldn't." I would recommend they play some other game. Since my only major goals can be measured as "have fun" and "avoid unfun," why should I hang out in a level longer than I need to, when it isn't fun and doesn't reward me for doing so? Hanging out longer in Survivals or Defenses rewards you. There is no reward for doing this in regular play. DE stopped it from being fun because "that's a good game, but not Warframe," and it's not like you can find tokens on every map for the Syndicate whose sigil you happen to be flying, or cache lockers exist on every tile and you can always find at least one on a map. Exploration is not rewarded. Combat is not rewarded. Fighting enemies is not fun, and it's just wasting time to poke around in tiles you've seen before for stuff you know isn't valuable enough to be worth the time to check. If you're in a group, you waste everyone's time, and if you're running solo, you're just wasting your own.

 

So what's the point? No reward, no entertainment value, why should I waste my time on it? If they refuse to improve the combat and make it entertaining, if they refuse to make the game nothing but a massive grindwall to try and frustrate people in to buying things directly as a business model, should anyone be surprised when people put effort and pain into doing things in the quickest and most efficient manner possible, purely to avoid the boring combat and circumvent as much of the tedius timesink as they can?

 

You mistake me. I don't minmax because I find it fun. There's nothing fun about it at all. It's that doing so is less painful than the alternative. It is not an exercise in fun. It is an exercise in avoiding the unfun.

 

Nobody who runs sixty minutes of TIV Survival does so because they find it fun. There's nothing fun about it. It's not fun at all. Anyone who finds it fun probably needs to see a therapist. We don't do it because it is fun. We do it because we want that mother@(*()$ Prime part for that )*&%$@(*()$ Prime frame or Prime gun, and we aren't leaving until we @(*())^#$ get it.

 

Everything that every Void farming build relies upon is based on easing the suffering caused by this as much as possible. It is not an exercise of finding fun. It is an exercise in avoiding and circumventing as much of the unfun as possible. 

 

Which, to bring this back on-topic, things like these suggested nerfs threaten. Removing Radial Disarm? That's not overpowered. It never was. But it's a huge buffer against the not fun. The only reason I can concieve for anyone wanting to remove a buffer between themelves and the unfun, is because they either don't play at a high enough level to understand why it is vital, or they never actually use the ability themselves, and thus are literally demanding that someone else have their nice things taken away for no reason. Because it mechanically steals kills and they think the end mission stats actually matter, or something equally stupid.

 

No. Stop talking. Shoo. Go away. You don't get to take away the things that make grinding in this game less painful than they already are just because you're mad that Hydroid isn't meta or that Valkyr is functionally useless in high end play. Advocate buffing weaker frames if you actually care about balance, not nerfing ones that are actually balanced and good.

 

DE stealth nerfed Excalibur into worthless garbage with U16, and half of you don't seem to have even noticed. They know good and well that the community didn't want this; that's why they rolled it back with apologies when they did it the first time. Only now they did it again, and hid it by not mentioning it in the patch notes. Why are you letting them get away with it? Why are any of you complaining about Loki or Nova when DE drop-kicked three frames in the face with this update, and plans on doing it to more by making the LoS change universal to all Ults?

 

Where are your priorities? Obviously not in the right place if you're crying about Loki and coptering and Nova while the U16 changes go unchallenged and uncontested.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LordRaine

[Bobtm]

That's the most self-contradicting thing I've ever read in quite some time.  If you find seemingly nothing of this game's gameplay fun in any realm, then why is it you play at all?

 

It's because, even if you somehow don't realize it, you're an achiever.  Otherwise you wouldn't have continued playing this game to this point at all.  You're driven by your desire to obtain goals as structured by a game.

 

I'm not even remotely a purist achiever. 

 

Why should I do something painful that also does not reward me for doing it? I get nothing out of fighting Grineer or Corpus. It doesn't reward me. It isn't fun. So what's my incentive? DE doesn't give me one, so I move past them and just get the mission over with. 

 

Combat is not rewarded. Fighting enemies is not fun

 

So what's the point? No reward, no entertainment value, why should I waste my time on it? If they refuse to improve the combat and make it entertaining, if they refuse to make the game nothing but a massive grindwall to try and frustrate people in to buying things directly as a business model, should anyone be surprised when people put effort and pain into doing things in the quickest and most efficient manner possible, purely to avoid the boring combat and circumvent as much of the tedius timesink as they can?

 

You mistake me. I don't minmax because I find it fun. There's nothing fun about it at all. It's that doing so is less painful than the alternative. It is not an exercise in fun. It is an exercise in avoiding the unfun.

 

Nobody who runs sixty minutes of TIV Survival does so because they find it fun. There's nothing fun about it. It's not fun at all. Anyone who finds it fun probably needs to see a therapist. We don't do it because it is fun. We do it because we want that mother@(*()$ Prime part for that )*&%$@(*()$ Prime frame or Prime gun, and we aren't leaving until we @(*())^#$ get it.

 

You say you aren't an achiever, then you repeatedly and entirely say that you are the absolute definition of an achiever.

 

As it stands, you note that "they refuse to improve the combat" yet they're trying to do just that.  They've made countless improvements to the infested faction over the past year's time.  They're no longer an easy-cheesy foe who is a non-threat in all ways.

 

Beyond this, what you seem to be trying to say here is entirely contradictory to opposing the reduced effectiveness of overpowered abilities.  Enemies cannot be engaging in battle if they're reduced to a snail's pace indefinitely.  Facing foes who can do nothing but fail miserably to strike the player with a tiny rod cannot provide an interesting battle in any way.  Overpowered abilities prevent interesting combat and gameplay through their existence.

 

Edit as I notice you added some edits to your post while I was typing up my own.

 

 No. Stop talking. Shoo. Go away. You don't get to take away the things that make grinding in this game less painful than they already are just because you're mad that Hydroid isn't meta or that Valkyr is functionally useless in high end play. Advocate buffing weaker frames if you actually care about balance, not nerfing ones that are actually balanced and good.

 

DE stealth nerfed Excalibur into worthless garbage with U16, and half of you don't seem to have even noticed. They know good and well that the community didn't want this; that's why they rolled it back with apologies when they did it the first time. Only now they did it again, and hid it by not mentioning it in the patch notes. Why are you letting them get away with it? Why are any of you complaining about Loki or Nova when DE drop-kicked three frames in the face with this update, and plans on doing it to more by making the LoS change universal to all Ults?

 

Where are your priorities? Obviously not in the right place if you're crying about Loki and coptering and Nova while the U16 changes go unchallenged and uncontested.

Pointlessly making assertations that I'm somehow angered about Hydroid or Valkyr is both baseless and silly.  It does nothing to further your point in any way, and even lands within the pitfalls of the anti-arguements you tried noting earlier in this thread.

 

Furthermore, when did I ever say I was fully in support of the changes made to Excalibur?  Beyond that, why not actually read the discussion that was being had on the previous page of this thread?  Yes, Excaliber was problematic in his previous state, however I don't agree with the current functionality of Radial Javelin either.  I've made posts on that note as well, so assuming that I and others have ignored that is again, both baseless and silly.

 

I and others agree that buffing enemy AI would be a better route when handling Loki's Radial Disarm.  Make combatting them more engaging rather than nerfing the ability.  It goes to instantly counterpoint the stance you have entirely.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Bobtm

[LordRaine]

That's the most self-contradicting thing I've ever read in quite some time.  If you find seemingly nothing of this game's gameplay fun in any realm, then why is it you play at all?

It's not self-contradictory in the slightest. And you didn't listen to what I said. Go reread it again. MOST of the game is not fun. The majority of the content of this game is not fun. The fun must be searched for. It requires effort to find. I did not, at any point, say it does not exist. I even told you where most of it was, if you bothered to pay attention.

 

And why would I play? Plenty of reasons. Because I liked the original Dark Sectors concept, I've been waiting for years for them to make it, and Dark Sectors already died once, so Warframe is literally the last chance the IP has; if it dies now, it's not coming back a third time. Because a game does not need to be fun for people to play it; it being addictive is enough, and is indeed the strategy most FTP games aim for, Warframe included. Because I have little better to do with my free time, and sometimes don't feel like retreading games I've already played. 

 

Pointlessly making assertations that I'm somehow angered about Hydroid or Valkyr is both baseless and silly.

I wasn't addressing you. That should have been obvious, since you never said anything about Hydroid or Loki. No one did. I even told you who I was addressing, by saying "and back to the topic at hand." Did you just skim my post?

[UseNet]

 Did you just skim my post?

 

Cant really blame a guy for skimming your post when you've just been spouting the same rhetoric over and over for hours.

[Necr0Ra1se]

Nova was already nerfed. And loki'sRadial disarm is not about press to win it is press to survive -_-...No no and no

[Bobtm]

You're off point and out of line entirely.  Assuming I skimmed your post goes onto the pile of things you wrongly assume time and again.  Trying to discuss any of this further is a waste of time, so let's just cut that and go back to the actual point at current.

 

Loki's RD prevents fighting foes from being a thing.  It disallows any chance at interesting gameplay currently by the way in which it functions.  Of course as I've made clear before however I don't feel like nerfing it directly would be the proper course of action.  Rather, buffing the options available to foes after they've been disarmed would be for the best in the long term here.  Allowing gameplay to remain interesting while allowing RD to remain as a way to outright lock foes out of ranged combat.

 

Ignoring the senseless banter and needless assumptions;  What's your opinion on that?

 

Moving on;

 

You claim that Archwing is where most of the fun lies, and this is the funniest thing of all here because Archwing is notably more well balanced than the main game.  One cannot blanket neuter all enemies in Archwing like they can during normal gameplay.  The fact alone that you enjoy Archwing means you are for rebalancing things to disallow abilities from neutering all foes indefinitely.

[LordRaine]

You're off point and out of line entirely.

Oh no.

 

I'm out of line.

 

The horror.

 

How dare I assume someone only skimmed my post when they show a basic lack of knowledge on what was said? Such indignity. I will never live this moment down so long as I live. It will haunt me forever more. I cannot show my face in public, cannot speak with anyone who once knew me. I must flee the country, change my identity, and live a life of labor and contemplation alone in the hills and forests. I will forever remember and rue the day. . . that I was out of line.

[RealPandemonium]

Nova was already nerfed. And loki'sRadial disarm is not about press to win it is press to survive -_-...No no and no

Lol, Nova was buffed by the MPrime change, as the slow is now even more debilitating.  Also, when you disarm enemies, they become incapable of harming a competent player and almost incapable of harming an objected guarded by a competent player.  Throw any other cc into the mix, and GG.  

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

It's a weak weapon no matter how you treat it. It's sustained DPS is terrible, it can't kill easily, and it can't copter. Those are the only two requirements for a good melee weapon, and it fails both of them. 

 

Melee was already inferior to gunplay prior to the removal of Charge Attacks. With them dead and the flop that was Sword Alone, there is literally no reason to choose melee over gunplay if you're actually trying to play the game, as it is a strict downgrade in both damage dealt and effectiveness at dealing with enemies, and it offers no rewards to incentivise it or make up for the blatant handicap of using it. 

 

So even the best melee weapon is now inferior to most mid-range guns. And the Obex isn't one of the best melee weapons.

 

Literally the only factor that actually matters right now is whether or not it can copter. And it can't. And even if we lived in a world where that wasn't the only factor that matters, it still couldn't compete. 

 

It's weak. You can't do anything to not make it weak.

 

I already asked you to explain why people should spend any more time than necessary wandering around a level, and you completely ignored the issue I raised. That would be a Contradiction, i.e. simply refuting the point without providing any evidence or argument as to why.

 

Why should I not want to hurry up and get the mission over with? What incentive do I have?

 

As anyone who plays high level knows, CC is superior to damage. Guess what the Obex has? And again, movement speed while attacking is important, at least against Corrupted and Corpus because they won't hit you. Also, your DPS calculations don't factor in Finishers, and the Obex gets those in spades. DPS is an awful thing to use to decide melee viability anyway, as it doesn't factor in things like blocking, channeling, CC, speed, and stuns. Using DPS to calculate melee viability is like using DPS to calculate Warframe ability viability.

 

I can spend more time than necessary because I enjoy the levels, believe it or not. I have fun seeing how many ways I can take down the enemies. I have two frames, two of the first few I made, that have over 10% usage because of this. I actually enjoy trying different things. I enjoy playing different levels in different ways. I don't enjoy everything, not by a longshot, but I deal with that by coming here and writing about what I didn't enjoy and why. I don't by trying to go down the unfulfilling route of getting more items that I can't actually enjoy using anywhere. Quite honestly, if you're at that stage you should probably take a break from the game, because it cannot offer you anything anymore. Sure, you can get more items, but then where will you use them? In the real world? In a game you like? You sound like someone who's been trapped by your own mind--you're going to keep jumping for the cheese even though you see with your eyes there's nothing there.

[Edontsu]

 

Loki's RD prevents fighting foes from being a thing.  It disallows any chance at interesting gameplay currently by the way in which it functions.  Of course as I've made clear before however I don't feel like nerfing it directly would be the proper course of action.  Rather, buffing the options available to foes after they've been disarmed would be for the best in the long term here.  Allowing gameplay to remain interesting while allowing RD to remain as a way to outright lock foes out of ranged combat.

how can you defend that when when enemies scale infinitely, is all the health and chance of insta death not good enough? are nullifiers, maniac, and Mutalist moas at lvl 300 not a challenge... actually it would be nice in endless mission types that warframe abilities scaled with the timer, power mods would add like a muiltiplier to do better dmg as to not make them redundant and it would finally DEAC not a thing. i got off topic and my grammars a mess

plskillme

[vaugahn]

are nullifiers, maniac, and Mutalist moas at lvl 300 not a challenge

 

Well, yes and no. They're not really any more challenging than regular enemies, the only difficulty they have is artificial.

 

We just need to get rid of infinite scaling. It causes nothing but problems.

[LordRaine]

Which is why we need to hard cap everything at level 30 and trash the current incarnation of the mod system. All anyone ever does is stack damage increasing mods on their weapons to begin with; frames at least have some variety with Corrupted mods where you pay a price for a boost, but the only reason someone would not put all damage and DPS increase on their guns is because they don't have the mods they need to do it, or haven't fused the mods to a high enough level.

 

Throw away the mod system. Cap everything at level thirty. The balance will come naturally in a world where damage mods and level 80 Bombards don't exist. 

 

The truly sad thing is, as garbage as the PvP is, it's the closest thing we have to true balance right now. No damage mods, all the weapons are getting serious reworks so they have a clear heirarchy but none are blatantly overpowered, the frame powers are getting rebalanced with their kill-efficency in mind, and they're leaving coptering in while seriously considering removing stamina entirely.

 

What's being done with the PvP is what should be done to the main game. At this point, our best bet may be to bide our time and then use the PvP as our star witness in the argument for what should be done for PvE. PvP may be the cancer that kills the cancer. The irony is palpable. 

[Bobtm]

how can you defend that when when enemies scale infinitely, is all the health and chance of insta death not good enough? are nullifiers, maniac, and Mutalist moas at lvl 300 not a challenge... actually it would be nice in endless mission types that warframe abilities scaled with the timer, power mods would add like a muiltiplier to do better dmg as to not make them redundant and it would finally DEAC not a thing. i got off topic and my grammars a mess

plskillme

 

As vaugahn covered, it's just artificial difficulty.  Beyond that, it's a tricky situation with damage powers.  There's a reason DE hasn't yet implemented any way for them to upscale with endless and it's because doing so is counterproductive.  Having a damage power kill things swiftly at higher levels just means that you're doing the same thing you were prior.  It's why scaling in general is always an odd thing, it exists to give players the belief that they're getting stronger when they actually aren't.  It all ties into false progression in a big way, showing players bigger numbers fo no true reason.  If everything scales to the same degree, then there is no actual difference between level 1 and level 300.  This is also why stuff like Iron Skin can't just be allowed to easily scale.

 

Improving enemy AI under all circumstances and getting rid of endless scaling would be a move in the right direction for sure.  Slowly but surely getting rid of the cheese and imbalance that's rife within the main game.

[vaugahn]

Throw away the mod system. Cap everything at level thirty. The balance will come naturally in a world where damage mods and level 80 Bombards don't exist. 

 

Well, I doubt it will be that easy.

 

But it will certainly get rid of the whole "gun X is OP on level 20s, gun Y is balanced on level 200s" thing. We just need a baseline for balance. Once we know what we're balancing to, we can start making meaningful changes. PvP comes with a built in baseline, PvE doesn't have one quite yet.

[ThePresident777]

Nova was nerfed:  smaller radii on explosions, slow spreading effect.  The radii and immediate effect of Mprime were two factors that were sited as making Nova powerful and two factors used to call for nerfs.  But, those facts are inconvenient to further calls for nerfs.

 

Nova was supposed to be the baseline.  Yet, that didn't stop the calls to nerf.

 

Baselines are a matter of opinion.

Edited March 29, 2015 by ThePresident777

[vaugahn]

Baselines are a matter of opinion.

 

True.

 

That doesn't make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's though.

[ThePresident777]

0)  The concept of difficulty is itself artificial.

 

1)  Infinite scaling is good because it allows players to establish their own baselines.  It promotes player choice and variety and customer staisfaction.  The problem with Warframe is not infinite scaling.  It's the lack of it.  The enemy scale infinitely, but the players do not, which impedes the players finding their own baselines, instead of having it arbitrarily dictated by others.

 

2)  Obex is weak CC.  It's funny under circumstances where one can get away with playing bowling ball.  But, it is limited to that.

Edited March 29, 2015 by ThePresident777

[vaugahn]

1)  Infinite scaling is good

 

Let me stop you right there. That is complete and total BS, and you know it.

[RealPandemonium]

0)  The concept of difficulty is itself artificial.

deep

[LazyKnight]

1)  Infinite scaling is good because it allows players to establish their own baselines.  It promotes player choice and variety and customer satisfaction.  The problem with Warframe is not infinite scaling.  It's the lack of it.  The enemy scale infinitely, but the players do not, which impedes the players finding their own baselines, instead of having it arbitrarily dictated by others.

That's a term that fits an arcade game; Not sure if Warframe is meant to fit in that genre, or not, but for that to function, there would need to be a strong degree of equality among player options (not a bad thing). It's also not infinite, but the bar is set so high it's not meant to be possible to reach it under any circumstances.

 

Having a gauntlet mode in a game is something that keeps players busy, reach new goals and such. Problem is balancing it so it stays fun, and not just shooting the same NPCs for 5 minutes to kill it.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[ThePresident777]

0)  Yes, computers are not capable of infinity, only quantities large enough to substitute well enough for infinity.

 

1)  Equality is possible only in light of a purpose and an objective measure.  Warframe lacks definition in that regard.  It has a ton of content all crammed into a few receptacles and it's all expected to fit equally well into all the receptacles.  DE has slapped Warframe together expediently, buying time and raising revenue to fund the project while it builds the engine to then eventually get into their comfort zone.  But, DE has accidentally hit upon a massive under served player base who want their money's worth and don't want to be exploited as an expendable stepping stone.  Now DE is trying to break into China's gaming market.  With DE's hunger for compromise, worlds will collide.  They're in the center of the blast zone.  It can't end well.  Compromise is lost opportunity.  Purpose --> Profit.  Compromise --> loss.