Too Much Energy In The Conclaves, And Overpowered Abilities.

[Magnar21]

The only problem with tying energy gain to kills specifically - is there will be almost no way to stop the steamroll deathball.

 

First kill gets juice - uses juice advantage to gain next kill - and continue.

 

Meanwhile McFlounder is zapped & crushed & spiked until he ragequits.

Agreed. I wish to avoid deathballs as much as possible. These can be likened to zergs in GW2, but there is another comparison that I think is more appropriate.

 

To use an out-of-Warframe comparison, take Hawken, a fast-pased F2P mech shooter (who just resently changed dev ownership, but that's off topic). In it, there is the problem of "rolling deathballs", where one team clusters up, running from POI to POI, killing all players in their path. Having multiplayers speeds rate of capping nodes, so they can cap points faster than solo players. This is compounded, as they kill players one at a time, causing respawns to be staggered. As a result, it is difficult to recover. Then, to add insult to injury, players can buy a passive upgrade (called an internal) that causes kills and assists  to regenerate health. This makes the whole wave unstoppable, at least to inexperienced/uncoordinated teams.

 

In Hawken, there were a few ways to stop a deathball. The first, and perhaps most straight forward way is to lure the deathball around cover using some player as bait, and have a few frames lying in wait behind obstacles, which does block radar temporarily. Requires players to communicate and not run ahead of the trap. Deathballs will always have tunnel vision, and players trying to diffuse it must exploit this.

 

Second, you can, as a solo player, use the Sharpshooter (sniper) mech to dodge dance around obstacles (boost towards a corner, turn while boosting, fire, then dodge back behind cover; alternatively, use the air dodge system to do the same--- dodge out of cover, fire, jump and dodge back behind cover). This, if you have the right internal loadout, can absolutely destroy a deathball by taking out the medic and carries (for Hawken, that usually is a Vanguard armed with mini-flak and kill regen, although any high dps frame with good movement speed can do it. OOOPS, that's practially everything except brawler and medic).

 

The final strategy, that is more hit and miss than anything else, is to use the Incinerator to try to get the healer and other mechs to overheat. This is, unfortunately, the most effective strategy when your team is completely uncoordinated. If you can cause the other team to loose a bit of steam, sometimes your team will rush in to try to knock em out.

 

So, what's the motto for Warframe? Most likely, DE will avoid the passive regen or regen on kill too much. It's rewarding for the steamrollers, but the more steamrolling goes on, the less other players will join in (and TBH, I think this was Hawken's problem. Not enough people, once players found out that if the other team could get coordinated enough to steamroll, you might as well AFK the rest of the match.) A possibility is to have a logarithmic curve of some kind, or decaying returns. This way, especially if players respawn with increasing invulnerability or energy each time they die, the loosing team can pick up some slack. Hawken tried to do this by making equippable items only get refreshed on death, so those who died more frequently would have the advantage of more items, more frequently, thus (in matches with experienced players) giving a chance to turn the tide.

 

TL:DR

Energy gain on kill is imbalanced in PVP, unless countermeasures are offered to the loosing team/player. If energy is aquired through orbs or drops from kills, this can create an interesting meta where players fight over them.... or just keep the loosing team from having a chance to win once they loose control over them. Energy regen over time seems like a viable choice, provided that skill costs are balanced around that, and players can't pump efficiency too high.

 

I've not tried the new PVP, since I've been too busy with college. This is currently being typed from a computer on campus that can't handle Warframe. All these ideas come from talking to players who have been playing PVP, reading forums, and reading patch notes. And I suppose you can count old DS conflicts and PVP in other games, too.

[KittyDarkling]

The problem is that the Energy pools are too global, there should be only energy pools inside the Flag Room and in close proximity to the individual bases. That way, if an enemy were to deny an energy drop, they'd be in a position to cause a problem with the opposing team. I think this is another core reason for the problems with Coptering, as Energy can be gained nearly anywhere and isn't centralized around the objectives or bases.

 

As for Regenerating Energy, I'd say it should be viable only if it's around the Flag Room and for the proper team. The Flag should impart this and once grabbed the Regeneration effect should be removed from the zone. The Flag Bearer wouldn't get imparted with this effect, as he/she isn't a part of that team. Think of it as a localized Team Buff where energy is imparted due to the objective being in its rightful place.

 

EDITED FOR CLARITY

 

This is a really good insight/idea. Thank you for posting it. I agree energy should be centralized around bases.

[rockscl]

 

As for Regenerating Energy, I'd say it should be viable only if it's around the Flag Room and for the proper team. The Flag should impart this and once grabbed the Regeneration effect should be removed from the zone. The Flag Bearer wouldn't get imparted with this effect, as he/she isn't a part of that team. Think of it as a localized Team Buff where energy is imparted due to the objective being in its rightful place.

 

 

this would give a reason to defend the ceph´s spawn, the longer you can defend it, the more chance you will have to steal other one, and camping in enemy spawn would eventually leave the attacker dry from energy, allowing for oportunity windows for comebacks instead of snowballing for the attacker, but this would also encourage defensive camping, the ceph would need to limit its energy resource, like each 30 seconds or so, currently 30 seconds are more than enough for a whole team fight, if such thing can actually exist under this system at all

Edited March 25, 2015 by rockscl

[Dojutrek]

this would give a reason to defend the ceph´s spawn, the longer you can defend it, the more chance you will have to steal other one, and camping in enemy spawn would eventually leave the attacker dry from energy, allowing for oportunity windows for comebacks instead of snowballing for the attacker, but this would also encourage defensive camping, the ceph would need to limit its energy resource, like each 30 seconds or so, currently 30 seconds are more than enough for a whole team fight, if such thing can actually exist under this system at all

 

I was thinking about it, say a Cephalon pulses energy every 20 or 25 seconds and grants ~15 to 25 energy to the respective team. This would give the first, second, third, and fourth abilties in sequence. Thus giving a reason to defend and when appropriate go on the offensive as well.

 

Also, Teams can exist in this new PVP mode. However, there needs to be designated roles and concepts in order for it to be effective, for example there needs to be a Heavy class that can deny and limit enemy incursions into the Flag room. I use Frost for this since he has the most defensive skill set and if properly timed can lock down a flag grab.

[.Talia.]

I don't like the idea of energy pulses in the base, people would just camp there and spam ults.

Edited March 26, 2015 by RexSol

[Qynchou]

Just had a pleasure playing against a volt who was only showing up once he had enough energy to 4. hahaha, god the energy resources are so broken.

[Dojutrek]

I don't like the idea of energy pulses in the base, people would just camp there and spam ults.

 

Neither do I, but I like to be as thorough as possible when it comes to proposing suggestions of improvements.

[Qynchou]

Energy on kills with weapons.

 

No energy for kills with abilities. Problem solved.

[Dojutrek]

Energy on kills with weapons.

 

No energy for kills with abilities. Problem solved.

 

Personally, I feel that works. However, after some re-evaluation of that also produces the concept that Health/Energy/Ammo should be dropped via Kills, but only if mid-area resupply zones are removed and redistributed near the bases.

[.Talia.]

Energy on kills with weapons.

 

No energy for kills with abilities. Problem solved.

This is a good idea.

Edited March 26, 2015 by RexSol

[Lunaroh]

what about assists? only the last hitter gets the energy? even if you wasted YOUR energy to help kill the target?

 

Also, some abilities don't kill but provide utility that helps in doing so (iron skin). Do rhinos get energy if they kill with their weapons and keep recasting iron skin? (just an example)

Edited March 26, 2015 by Lunaroh

[rockscl]

With energy pulses, camping for ultimates would be tempting, but also a disorder on targets and a bad strategy

 

Win > Capture > Steal > Energy > Kills 

 

in a balanced match, if a player forgets that capturing is more important, he would end with nothing in his hands, its like newbies in RTS, they always try to camp their base for lategame power and lose the game earlier

 

however this idea sounds like too restrictive with nrg and  abilities, and Steal and Capture are more viable when enemy team has no energy, so attacking at minute 0 will give advantage to the attacker and the game may end without abilities at all

 

about no nrg on abilities kills, that sounds good for stop snowballing, but defending the ceph will be only less viable if there is no nrg without kills

 

stop snowballing, allow for comebacks, and making defense more viable, those should be the focused points

Edited March 26, 2015 by rockscl

[Qynchou]

what about assists? only the last hitter gets the energy? even if you wasted YOUR energy to help kill the target?

 

Also, some abilities don't kill but provide utility that helps in doing so (iron skin). Do rhinos get energy if they kill with their weapons and keep recasting iron skin? (just an example)

Iron Skin isnt in a position where you will kill 2 enemies within 10 seconds with weapons every single time.

[Ronyn]

If we are going to talk about powers and energy...

The initial focus should really be on getting powers in balance and tuning how they interact with the frames and other powers.

There are important questions that need to be asked here.

 

For example:

Snow globe is meant to create a a 360 degree shield, a bunker, a defensive bastion. 

So if a Volt triggers Overload outside of an enemy frosts snow globe should it be able to damage people inside of it?  

 

If yes-then Snow globe is largely ineffective at blocking incoming damage from aoe powers and looses much of its purpose. 

OR

If no-then snow globe can force an enemy team to either burn it down or enter it which is effective but renders outside powers useless. 

Or 

perhaps when an  overload hit's a snow globe it doesn't hurt the enemies inside but breaks the snow globe after passing over it.

That way it captures the proper tactical relevance from both versions while being counterable by the right tactics.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Another thought-

How often a power can be used should be in direct proportion to how much impact it has on an encounter.

Warframe's class design was NOT based on a game where powers are used rarely so we need to balance the powers around being used often.

The powers are a problem right now because they aren't balanced around the idea that they will be commonly used.

So the impact they have on the battlefield is disproportionate to how often they get used.

 

Currently we have Excals and Volt's running around, grabbing energy, then rushing in, hitting 4 and watching everyone die.

Well here is my first question: Does Radial javelin and overload need to be able to one hit kill everyone and everything in it's radius? 

 

Are we operating under the assumption that these powers have to be wide angle insta-kills so our only recourse is to lessen the amount of energy in a match? 

 

And if they aren't 1-hit kills.if they can be survived and even countered...

then why should we lessen the energy on the map?

 

My point is that both lessening energy and weakening powers is going overboard. 

One or the other would suffice, and considering the nature of warframe....where frame identity is so closely tied to powers we need to balance the powers not make us starve for energy.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Ronyn

[.Talia.]

 

 

Conclave Changes

• All Warframes now have a base max energy of 100.
• Increased the damage radius of Rhino’s Stomp in Conclave.
• Increased the range of Excalibur's Radial Javelin in Conclave.
• Slowed the activation / casting animations of Excalibur's Radial Javelin in Conclave.

Thanks DE for the recent changes on abilities.... Rhino Stomp deserved some love. Volt Prime finally got its energy pool nerfed, it was too much. I like the slowed casting animation for Radial Javelin, but i'm not so sure if the range increase was necessary, i'll need further testings playing with Excal before jumping to a conclusion.

[Ronyn]

Not all frames are supposed to have the same energy pool though.

For goodness sake.....

[Ronyn]

Seriously guys do you want to play warframe where all the frames have the same core stats and the only difference is in their powers which we will rarely get to use due to lack of energy on the field?

[.Talia.]

Seriously guys do you want to play warframe where all the frames have the same core stats and the only difference is in their powers which we will rarely get to use due to lack of energy on the field?

Not the same core stats, but the 200 energy for Volt Prime was a serious problem, and this is coming from a Volt user... 

[Ronyn]

Not the same core stats, but the 200 energy for Volt Prime was a serious problem, and this is coming from a Volt user... 

I hear you and I generally agree. 

However the patch notes didn't say "lowered volt primes base max power"...

They said "ALL warframes now have a base max power of 100"

 

Which means other frames also get their energy lowered whether it's right for them or not. 

This isn't the only stat that's been equalized for pvp either. It's too standardized.

Frames are incrementally loosing parts of their uniqueness.

This is a dangerous direction for things to go in. 

[.Talia.]

I hear you and I generally agree. 

However the patch notes didn't say "lowered volt primes base max power"...

They said "ALL warframes now have a base max power of 100"

 

Which means other frames also get their energy lowered whether it's right for them or not. 

This isn't the only stat that's been equalized for pvp either. It's too standardized.

Frames are incrementally loosing parts of their uniqueness.

This is a dangerous direction for things to go in. 

I agree that each Warframe should have different stats. Maybe standardizing energy for ALL Warframes was not a smart move. Maybe reduced energy would be enough for the Volt Prime problem.

Edited March 26, 2015 by RexSol

[Ronyn]

I agree that each Warframe should have different stats. Maybe standardizing energy for ALL Warframes was not a smart move. 

right.

 

 

Maybe reduced energy would be enough for the Volt Prime problem.

Depends on what we consider the problem with volt.

And for that matter whether we think all other frames should have less access to energy.

or that all powers are problematic with current energy availability.

 

The underlying problem is the lack of balance between the powers.

Take for example-

Before the patch lets say someone is playing Chroma (who could hold 150 energy if memory serves). They activate both their two (50 energy) and three abilities (75 energy) for a total cost of 125 energy to raise their defenses by a lot.  Of course when a volt spends 100 energy to activate overload it kills Chroma anyway. The defenses are no match.

 

Now with this new change Chroma cannot hold enough energy to do both his 2 and 3 (will have to grab energy between one or the other) yet Volt can still insta-kill people for 100 energy. That's because the real problem isn't being dealt with. Overload is just too friggin strong. Too capable of steamrolling a wide area. It needs to be scaled back.

 

There are several powers need to be brought into a reasonable place so that doing something as simple as pressing 4 doesn't clear the area. And several specific interactions between powers that need to be set so the intended roles remain valid throughout the combat encounters.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Ronyn

[zerogear5]

energy needs to be 100 max or you would be saying some frames must use abilities more then others which in pvp doesnt make sense.

[Burnthesteak87]

The game as it is now is simple cr4p.
#1 spam, #4 spam, oneshotting weapons spam, coptering spam.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[rockscl]

the amount of energy is meaningless, its the cost of each skills what defines its energy efficiency, so this numeric change all does is making sure that primes wont spam more skills than their normal versions

[Ronyn]

energy needs to be 100 max or you would be saying some frames must use abilities more then others which in pvp doesnt make sense.

Some frames DO need to be using powers more often than others. Just because this is pvp doesn't entirely negate how the different roles and play styles are based partly on varied power usage. That is part of what makes them unique. How does this being pvp change that?

 

 

the amount of energy is meaningless, its the cost of each skills what defines its energy efficiency, so this numeric change all does is making sure that primes wont spam more skills than their normal versions

Its not just a question of prime verses normal version.. Volt and volt prime being identical is fine cause they're both volt.

its about different frames having their different stats so they can play differently. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by Ronyn