Concerns Of A Zephyr User, The Update 16.7 And 16.8 Revival: Now With Even More Turbulence Ranting!

[Ironlixivium]

Why hasn't this appeared in a community hot topics thread yet? Or have I just missed it?

[(PSN)abb12355]

Well, u16.5 just hit, still no fixes to Zephyr's problems........ Bruh how long must we wait, jeez.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Well, u16.5 just hit, still no fixes to Zephyr's problems........ Bruh how long must we wait, jeez.

I sent DERebecca another PM asking for a status update on the fix, along with the pictures in the OP of the bug in action.

[Impact6]

I sent DERebecca another PM asking for a status update on the fix, along with the pictures in the OP of the bug in action.

Good job man!

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I have added my feelings on un-Zephyr-friendly level design under section #5 to the OP.

 

With the addition of the Grineer sea lab tile set, it's plain to see how little thought goes into level design and how it might harm Zephyr. Many tile sets are cluttered with random debris and awkward terrain, with plenty of protruding geometry for Zephyr to get caught on while Tail Winding. One of my Tail Wind suggestions was to make Tail Wind push Zephyr sideways as well as forwards when she collides with a wall, and while this will help massively, it's not enough on its own. Hopefully the tile set redesigns accompanying Parkour 2.0 will make Warframe's environments a bit more Zephyr-friendly, but with DE's blatant neglect, I won't get my hopes up.

 

I've also added a 16.5 bug to the extension in the bug reporting section.

 

-As of U16.5, the energy effect in the center of the tornadoes no longer takes on your energy color, and instead shows the default light blue.

 

Hopefully I'll get a status update on the Turbulence fix I requested from DERebecca within the next few days. I'll keep trying to contact her on it.

[The.Night.Wolf]

As Zephyr being my in-game waifu, I absolutely agree on everything said. Sometimes I felt broken shattershield was better than turbulence, Dive Bomb is as useless as super jump and tornadoes are all over the place. I'd love for this to be fixed. As well as maybe a special Zephyr-Exclusive accessory or even a darn immortal skin to fix the horrible coloring. IMO, all tilesets need to be redesigned.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

As Zephyr being my in-game waifu, I absolutely agree on everything said. Sometimes I felt broken shattershield was better than turbulence, Dive Bomb is as useless as super jump and tornadoes are all over the place. I'd love for this to be fixed. As well as maybe a special Zephyr-Exclusive accessory or even a darn immortal skin to fix the horrible coloring. IMO, all tilesets need to be redesigned.

 

I'm trying as hard as I possibly can to contact DERebecca about Turbulence's bugs. I had an idea for a Zephyr proto-skin that makes her take on the appearance of the original fan concept that she's based off of. Tilesets are being redesigned for more fluid movement in parkour 2.0, so perhaps Zephyr's mobility will become more fluid as well as a side effect.

 

Also, while Dive Bomb is Zephyr's worst ability, I've still found limited use for it. It's helpful to jump and then immediately activate Dive Bomb to stun a horde of charging infested, and Dive Bomb can be cast at any point in your Tail Wind's duration, so this can be used to shorten Tail Winds so you don't overshoot. Combining Tail Wind and Dive Bomb would keep all of this, while allowing for another ability to further augment her flight.

Edited May 17, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[EchoesOfRain]

I'm sure it's been suggested before, but how about Turbulence augmenting Zephy's other abilities?

 

Tailwind gains an AoE that ragdolls enemies and drags them along

Divebomb (if it stays) creates a gust of wind that knocks enemies away, rather than just knocking them down

Tornado intensifies Turbulence's winds, creating an AoE around Zephyr that staggers enemies that come too close

And if we get a hover mode, Turbulence augments guns to have a small pull effect, pulling enemies towards the bullet/beam/explosion/etc.

 

 

 

 

Also, Zeph needs some cosmetic stuff. Immortal/Proto skins, a unique Syandana. There's WAY too much amazing possibility that is being missed out on.

[The.Night.Wolf]

I'm trying as hard as I possibly can to contact DERebecca about Turbulence's bugs. I had an idea for a Zephyr proto-skin that makes her take on the appearance of the original fan concept that she's based off of. Tilesets are being redesigned for more fluid movement in parkour 2.0, so perhaps Zephyr's mobility will become more fluid as well as a side effect.

 

Also, while Dive Bomb is Zephyr's worst ability, I've still found limited use for it. It's helpful to jump and then immediately activate Dive Bomb to stun a horde of charging infested, and Dive Bomb can be cast at any point in your Tail Wind's duration, so this can be used to shorten Tail Winds so you don't overshoot. Combining Tail Wind and Dive Bomb would keep all of this, while allowing for another ability to further augment her flight.

That's good to know, the proto skin idea is great. I've given many chances to Dive Bomb but I just cant get myself to like it. Though I see what you mean, I use melee slam. I hope the tilesets get better.

[LightningSentinel]

These changes are awesome! The devs need to listen to the Zephyr fans and implement these reworks!

[Rafarutos]

I had an idea for a Zephyr proto-skin that makes her take on the appearance of the original fan concept that she's based off of.

Oh man, i like how zephyr looks but my heart broke when i saw the original concept. It looks sooooo good!!

[Eminem2420]

DE might take your suggestions more seriously if your original post didn't have such an aggressive undertone. Frost and Ember "useless" I don't think so.

[Huntchez]

These are changes that I want? I had no idea.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

DE might take your suggestions more seriously if your original post didn't have such an aggressive undertone. Frost and Ember "useless" I don't think so.

I find it a little interesting that you're critiquing the general community consensus that Ember is at least low tier, and you have an Ember profile picture. While there is a high probability that your opinion is biased by your favorite frame, so is mine I suppose. I used a Zephyr profile picture for a long time.

The reason I say what I do about Frost is because he's a warframe with only one ability, maybe two with the Ice Wave augment. Great for defense, but sucks at everything else. Frost revisits have also been very heavily requested by the community, though not quite to the degree of Ember revisits. Let's try to keep the warframe usefulness discussion on Zephyr from now on.

Being overly aggressive is generally a bad idea, but it's a little hard not to when the devs have been diligently ignoring me for almost four months now. It's helpful to say a few provocative (but not insulting) things to spark discussion and call attention to your thread to help keep it alive. Based on some of the other topics out there, I'm amazed how civil the thread has stayed.

[(NSW)BlaineKodos]

I disagree with the change you proposed to Tornado. I use Tornado either as a panic button to disrupt the enemy while I perform a pressing action such as reviving an ally, or as a general aid in keeping the enemy busy during a Defense or similar stay-still gametype. If this change were implemented, it would take me much more time and effort to get the same four tornadoes on the field, and then I would be required to steer them? Powers that require your continued attention to steer are not something I enjoy. I avoid Elytron's Warhead entirely because of this problem, though admittedly that's a symptom of the only worthwhile Archwing missions being ludicrously open space requiring you to spend minutes waiting for your missile to actually impact before you look away. At least with Antimatter Drop, it being centered on my crosshair aids in the fact I am shooting it in order to add to its power. With Tornado doing this, I would basically be looking at the same target waiting for them to slowly (as mentioned specifically) get there.

 

I agree with most of your power assessments, but those changes would do nothing beneficial to how I use Tornado. I would much rather it simply have improved ability to keep its targets inside and deal damage, and be able to recast or turn them off when I change to a new room. I am not calling your suggestions bad, I am merely stating I would not enjoy them.

[Eminem2420]

Just because the general community thinks something, doesn't mean it is true. Your original post was more insulting to me than anything. I stopped reading when you said Frost and Ember was useless. On topic, Zephyr is fine. She has some bugs with her abilities, but what frame doesn't?

[Grander.Alderman]

Just because the general community thinks something, doesn't mean it is true. Your original post was more insulting to me than anything. I stopped reading when you said Frost and Ember was useless. On topic, Zephyr is fine. She has some bugs with her abilities, but what frame doesn't?

 

So you take a person's criticism of a warframe as a personal insult?  That's a reasonable response...

 

Not only that, it makes you stop reading and dismiss the actual arguments put forth on the basis of "Well, all the other frames have bugs too, so why should these ones be fixed?".

Edited May 19, 2015 by Grander.Alderman

[Eminem2420]

There are many other frames that need a rework/fix than Zephyr does. DE Rebecca has said this herself.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Just because the general community thinks something, doesn't mean it is true. Your original post was more insulting to me than anything. I stopped reading when you said Frost and Ember was useless. On topic, Zephyr is fine. She has some bugs with her abilities, but what frame doesn't?

 

So you take a person's criticism of a warframe as a personal insult?  That's a reasonable response...

 

Not only that, it makes you stop reading and dismiss the actual arguments put forth on the basis of "Well, all the other frames have bugs too, so why should these ones be fixed?".

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

There are many other frames that need a rework/fix than Zephyr does. DE Rebecca has said this herself.

 

Could you provide a link to where she said this? I would like to see it. While Zephyr is certainly a powerful frame compared to some of the others, she's also one of the most buggy and neglected frames in the entire game. Almost every single one of her abilities has a bug that severely harms it, the worst one obviously being Turbulence.

[Impact6]

So, this came in the hotfix today:

 

• Zephyr’s Turbulence visual effects will look slightly more transparent when cloaked.
  

 

Really? 

[MissFairy]

So, this came in the hotfix today:

 

• Zephyr’s Turbulence visual effects will look slightly more transparent when cloaked.

 

Really?

Exactly my thought. Poor Zephyr. I used her today in Stephano and turbulence worked barely its as if it has gotten worse since 16.5.

[(PSN)abb12355]

So, this came in the hotfix today:

• Zephyr’s Turbulence visual effects will look slightly more transparent when cloaked.

Really?

Why! we need a fix on the mechanics not the visual effects Edited May 19, 2015 by (PS4)abb12355

[Public_Stalker]

"I use OE and Stretch on Zephyr and hardly get hit on Ceres"

- Sappinmahsentry

[Impact6]

"I use OE and Stretch on Zephyr and hardly get hit on Ceres"

- Sappinmahsentry

yea right, but as there's been said before. The basic functionality shouldn't go at the cost of 2 modspaces. Loki's Invisibility, Ash's Teleport, Nova's wormhole etc, aren't literally disables when you reach high levels.

[DrBorris]

I know it is a bit greedy to ask for more feedback on an idea in someone else's thread, but I am really curious what more people think about it. The biggest problem I have with the proposed Turbulence rework is the RNG. When ti comes to protecting myself from damage, I do not want to worry abut RNG being a female dog. I can think of far too many worst case scenarios where you get one shot by that one enemy because that is when RNG said that Turbulence was not going to work. So, I tried to make a rework that catered to Zephyr's intended playstyle (above the enemy) and give her reliable damage reduction (more like damage avoidance).

 

This was the long winded "how"

Zephyr needs some help, ever since the accuracy changes Turbulence has been in a terrible spot. In addition, Turbulence seems to be serving the opposite purpose of how it should work. Turbulence SHOULD be the compensation for being far away from enemies (high above) where there is no way for Zephyr to avoid their fire. 

 

As for the Tail Wind/Dive Bomb thing, I am on the side to have Tailwind become a toggle ability after reaching the peak of that initial jump. Then I would make Dive Bomb operate as how Tailwind currently does whenever you are in the air, but has the shock wave whenever you hit a solid surface. (Basically the same thing everyone wants, the only difference is how the abilities are activated. As long as Zephyr gets a flying toggle ability I would be happy)

 

The following is a suggestion I had for Turbulence...

Original Thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/432795-turbulence-rework-make-it-useful-for-corpus-and-grinner/#entry4797416

 

As of now, Turbulence is in a very bad place. It is still OP against Corpus but is useless against Grineer. The following suggestion tones down Turbulence for Corpus, but then makes it equivalently useful for Grineer.

 

As a warning, this is a complete rework of the mechanics of Turbulence, but with similar results.

 

First off, we must look at the role turbulence is supposed to play. Zephyr is an air based frame, she is meant to be in the sky attacking enemies. The problem with attacking from above is it removes options of cover and severely restricts quick movements. Thus, Turbulence should be the ability that protects Zephyr when she is at a distance from enemies (the opposite of how it works now for Grineer). Turbulence should, if anything, be more effective the farther an enemy is away. Think about it logically, the more time a bullet is exposed to Turbulence, the more it should be deflected, right?

 

Now for the rework. Turbulence now has an unmodable 50 meter range (the maximum range for abilities). Throughout that range, have the angle of direction of enemy projectiles be increased (y axis) by 15 degrees. Power strength mods would just effect the angle (more strength increases).

 

Thus, the farther away you are from an enemy, the farther a bullet will possibly be deflected from its original target. This would also make Turbulence much better of a team ability. Turbulence would be much weaker at short ranges, an enemy that is close to you will still hit you, but it will become immensely powerful at longer ranges. This will make it so Turbulence is no longer an invincibility shield for Corpus and will make it much more powerful against the Grineer. Hitscan enemies outside the fifty meter range will not be effected by Turbulence, but there is not really any way to account for those enemies, I doubt many enemies will be able to shoot you from 50 meters away anyway (many tile sets are not that large and most enemies do not attack until they are considerably closer).

 

That is it from me, 15 degrees might be a bit overpowered, but you get the idea (8 degrees would be as low as I would go). I would like to think that this would even give Zephyr a role in end game missions, being able to drastically effect the accuracy of enemy weapons for such a large range would provide a nice amount of breathing room, but without creating invulnerability (close range units still can easily hit you).

 

And this was what the effects would be on actual gameplay (and where I discovered how immensely powerful (maybe a bit OP) the rework would be.

TL:DR: Have Turbulence add 15 8 degrees to the elevation of all enemies weapons withing 50 (pretty much the max range for anything in Warframe) meters of Zephyr.

 

What this would basically do is have Zephyr become more efficient at deflecting projectiles at a far range (Zephyr's intended area, far above the enemy). This would balance it for Corpus missions (it is a bit OP) and make it equally useful on Grineer missions (where it is pretty useless right now). This would also make this a wonderful team skill. It basically would have the exact same effect for all allies within the 50 meter range due to the angle adjustment affecting all enemies in that range.

 

Here is some basic math on how this would work out. Lets assume that Zephyr is 2 meters tall (I know it is a bit high, but it will make things simpler for me). On average, it could be assumed that enemies are aiming at the center of Zephyr, so 1 meter up. This would leave a total of one meter before a projectile was completely defected from hitting Zephyr. With some basic trig that would mean that any enemy 3.7 meters or more from Zephyr would not hit her. For fun, an enemy that is 50 meters away from Zephyr will overshoot by 13 meters. 

 

That actually sounds a bit OP, power strength would obviously effect the angle of deflection, so just intensify would make all enemies only 2.8 meters away would miss. A maxed power strength build would mean all enemies outside of 1 meter of Zephyr would miss. 

 

Thus, a nicer number would probably be 8 degrees at base. This would mean that enemies outside 7.1 meters will have projectiles be pretty much entirely diverted, and an intensify would take that down to 5.4 meters.

 

All of that math may be completely off because of the estimation of the height of a Zephyr being off, but it gets across the point of how powerful that rework would be (but still not be complete invulnerability and have a large weakness to short ranged attacks.

 

After going through this it almost would make sense to change its name to "Updraft" or something like that. Also, give Zephyr hover mode. I don't care if it is through Tail Wind or Dive bomb, but it has to happen.