What Are The Cheap Mechanics That Our Enemies Use That Should Be Changed?

[KingTaro]

Cheap mechanics?

Compared to Tenno, the enemies have practically none.

 

In other words, Warframe powers make the entire game a joke.

[RonanFrost]

I'm seeing a theme here .... It appears more to be griping over things that aren't present in your stereotypical FPS.

 

Sorry guys, this isn't Cawk in Doodie. It's not intended to be, and never will, either.

 

This is a blend between your standard pve mmo, and an fps/tps. The vision they have for this game is not "typical" and played out. Situational awareness, vigilance, and learning yourself, your 'frame, and your enemy .... these reign supreme here. (unless you're playing below level)

 

Push your difficulty. Put yourself in a more challenging position by playing down a 'mate, maybe even solo. Take the risk of failure, and learn your enemy, as well as your own limitations and mortality, as a ninja. You'll find this game to be far more dynamic, and these moves to be not only predictable, but avoidable, and even counterable.

[Centias]

Ballistas having 100% accuracy at medium-long range immediately after turning more than 45 degrees or suddenly changing directions completely, or leaving/entering cover with no time spent actually aiming at you. Enemy movement apparently plays no part in enemy accuracy, they will fire their rifles in the middle of any animation even if it literally isn't even aimed at you and still hit. I understand our weapons don't lose accuracy by moving, but we still take a moment to actually aim at a target and moving means we have to also adjust our aim according to how we're moving. It just feels really wrong to have a Ballista go from not even looking in my direction to hitting me dead-on in less than a quarter of a second.

 

Knockdowns and staggers are a bit out of control. Quick block should come back to alleviate that nonsense. We should also be able to do something like spam space to get up faster.

 

Bombard's fire rate + missile blast procs = random chance to be knocked down by explosions, even when behind cover, 3 or more times in a row until you just die without being able to do anything between missiles.

 

Both Mutalist MOAs do not need the stomp and the jump. One can jump and the other can stomp. The stomp also needs a telegraph like the MOA it originally came from.

 

The fact that Nullifier shields are still designed to make most weapons completely useless against them compared to high fire rate weapons. This is stupid, change it already. I should be able to kill the Nullifier even inside his bubble with the amount of damage a freaking Opticor does.

 

Bleed and toxic procs should never be enough to kill a warframe at full health. Better yet if they can't even kill a rank 0 warframe at full health. Obviously 70 damage out of 1000+ is really nothing, so maybe 50% of current max health at most. You should never have to worry about a lone Ballista getting a bleed proc on you from the only shot it fired before it died causing you to fall over dead a few seconds later from only the bleed damage.

[Alphafox]

Aimbots by Nullifiers. Aimbots by Bombards. Cheap hook grab slap by Ancients.

Let's add the 45 degree turn that they suddenly do and their near invisibility. 

[wtrmlnjuc]

Knockdowns and staggers are a bit out of control. Quick block should come back to alleviate that nonsense. We should also be able to do something like spam space to get up faster.

I just want this. Maybe not spam, but hitting right before you hit the floor to immediately right yourself. Would be helpful around swarms of knockdown instead of losing all control.

[Alphafox]

I just want this. Maybe not spam, but hitting right before you hit the floor to immediately right yourself. Would be helpful around swarms of knockdown instead of losing all control.

Something like quick recovery in fighting games would be great.

[RonanFrost]

-snip-

Knockdowns and staggers are a bit out of control. Quick block should come back to alleviate that nonsense. We should also be able to do something like spam space to get up faster.

 

Bombard's fire rate + missile blast procs = random chance to be knocked down by explosions, even when behind cover, 3 or more times in a row until you just die without being able to do anything between missiles.

 

Both Mutalist MOAs do not need the stomp and the jump. One can jump and the other can stomp. The stomp also needs a telegraph like the MOA it originally came from.

 

The fact that Nullifier shields are still designed to make most weapons completely useless against them compared to high fire rate weapons. This is stupid, change it already. I should be able to kill the Nullifier even inside his bubble with the amount of damage a freaking Opticor does.

 

Bleed and toxic procs should never be enough to kill a warframe at full health. Better yet if they can't even kill a rank 0 warframe at full health. Obviously 70 damage out of 1000+ is really nothing, so maybe 50% of current max health at most. You should never have to worry about a lone Ballista getting a bleed proc on you from the only shot it fired before it died causing you to fall over dead a few seconds later from only the bleed damage.

getting up - Perhaps the ability to roll while on the ground by tapping shift?

 

Bombard chain knockdown - spam shift to roll away if you can, otherwise, don't be that distance from them. they have a sweetspot.

Moas - they do have a telegraph. if you can't see them raise that foot up that high, you're not paying attention. shift+space+ctrl and knock them on their &#!, or just kill them. you have plenty of time to react.

 

nullifier shields don't do squat except to abilities do they? i usually kill nullifiers with my "OP" braton vandal by shooting them, then move on to the rest of their flock. aiming isn't hard. maybe it's the amount of punch-through i stack. not sure. 

 

to suggest that procs shouldn't kill, means that neither should our procs? and perhaps more intelligent damage avoidance to begin with.

 

nothing should be impossible to avoid, but neither should it be possible to flawlessly avoid at all times.

 

tether pulls - please ... you have plenty of time to get away, or just melee them, after you get pulled in. also, if you have an object (fence, etc) between you and them, you don't get pulled anywhere.

 

situational awareness, guys.

[VoidNomade]

Cheap mechanics?

Compared to Tenno, the enemies have practically none.

 

In other words, Warframe powers make the entire game a joke.

 

+1

[Kappa64]

Seekers.

I don't think I need to explain this.

[Riot_Inducer]

nullifier shields don't do squat except to abilities do they? i usually kill nullifiers with my "OP" braton vandal by shooting them, then move on to the rest of their flock. aiming isn't hard. maybe it's the amount of punch-through i stack. not sure. 

 

You've never used a low rate of fire weapon against a nullifier have you? Their shields have a minimum and maximum damage they can take from a single attack. This means you can fire an unranked mk-1 furis as a nullifier shield and it's damage will get bumped up to the minimum and melt the shield in seconds, meanwhile you can charge and fire your opticor at it all day but it's massive damage gets nerfed to the maximum so it will take ages to take it down. 

[Centias]

getting up - Perhaps the ability to roll while on the ground by tapping shift?

 

That would be super, anything to get up just a little bit faster.

 

Bombard chain knockdown - spam shift to roll away if you can, otherwise, don't be that distance from them. they have a sweetspot.

 

I find blast proc usually ignores rolling and causes knockdown anyway. And sometimes you just end up in a situation where they're far away in a direction you aren't looking, so by the time you notice them at all there's already 3-5 missiles in flight towards you. I won't even get into the overkill homing on those things.

 

Moas - they do have a telegraph. if you can't see them raise that foot up that high, you're not paying attention. shift+space+ctrl and knock them on their !, or just kill them. you have plenty of time to react.

 

I meant an audio telegraph and you know it. Sometimes they walk up behind you or land there after jumping, and decide to stomp. The jump situation is also why I said both MOAs don't need both abilities.

 

nullifier shields don't do squat except to abilities do they? i usually kill nullifiers with my "OP" braton vandal by shooting them, then move on to the rest of their flock. aiming isn't hard. maybe it's the amount of punch-through i stack. not sure.

 

As I said, high fire rate weapons do well against Nullifiers bubbles. Braton Vandal may not be the fastest, but it is fast, so it will do fine against them. Slow weapons have disproportionately bad performance against them, and it's nonsense. Try any sniper, bow, most shotguns, or the Opticor against the Corrupted Nullifier and you'll understand that something needs to change about it. And if you don't you are either blind or in denial.

 

to suggest that procs shouldn't kill, means that neither should our procs? and perhaps more intelligent damage avoidance to begin with.

 

nothing should be impossible to avoid, but neither should it be possible to flawlessly avoid at all times.

 

I find it very, very rare outside of very low levels that slash or toxic procs will actually kill something, and usually just another bullet or two would kill them anyway if they do or would die from the proc. Enemy health ramps way, WAY up to the point where these procs almost never mean much when we get them, but enemy damage also ramps up to the point where another 200-300% damage from bleeds or toxic procs on us is usually deadly if not healed or removed in some way. Depending on what enemy, this point happens pretty early. Namely the Ballista, which can randomly get slash procs causing you to bleed for 400 damage by level 20. Either this damage needs to be capped so you can't randomly die from full health in one proc, or there needs to be a way for a player to take some action to reduce this damage that is not healing or removing it with an ability. Rolling seems to give a few frames of damage reduction, but timing the tick of the bleed to end up on the right frames is very unreliable. I want something reliable outside of playing a healing frame or consumables because I shouldn't need to prepare for the one odd time a bleed does way more damage than it should since normally they actually do reasonable amounts of damage.

[Chiwwy1]

getting up - Perhaps the ability to roll while on the ground by tapping shift?

 

Bombard chain knockdown - spam shift to roll away if you can, otherwise, don't be that distance from them. they have a sweetspot.

Moas - they do have a telegraph. if you can't see them raise that foot up that high, you're not paying attention. shift+space+ctrl and knock them on their !, or just kill them. you have plenty of time to react.

 

nullifier shields don't do squat except to abilities do they? i usually kill nullifiers with my "OP" braton vandal by shooting them, then move on to the rest of their flock. aiming isn't hard. maybe it's the amount of punch-through i stack. not sure. 

 

to suggest that procs shouldn't kill, means that neither should our procs? and perhaps more intelligent damage avoidance to begin with.

 

nothing should be impossible to avoid, but neither should it be possible to flawlessly avoid at all times.

 

tether pulls - please ... you have plenty of time to get away, or just melee them, after you get pulled in. also, if you have an object (fence, etc) between you and them, you don't get pulled anywhere.

 

situational awareness, guys.

 

That can only get you so far in a game where in most modes the enemies infinitely spawn (exterminate and defense being modes where they don't). This is also a game where those infinitetly spawning enemies also work on a lax RNG system meaning that anything can pop up behind you with no effective way to counter without pretty much looking around like a frightened chipmunk and you could still get backshotted from something you couldn't prepare for. You're gonna tell me while trying to dodge and move effectively and use that situational awareness you have which pretty sure everyone has you don't get cheapshotted by a knockdown or proc you couldn't see coming.

 

Not saying you are completely wrong, but there is only so much you as a player can see and do and so much more the game can pile on.

[Lancars]

Plus when we knock them down they are already on there feet when someone uses something to impact them and heavygunners can continue with there knockdown attack even when hindered by one of our attacks and that causes her to be on her feet and already shooting you on the ground.

 

 

And Bleed proc spam.

[RonanFrost]

That would be super, anything to get up just a little bit faster.

 

 

I find blast proc usually ignores rolling and causes knockdown anyway. And sometimes you just end up in a situation where they're far away in a direction you aren't looking, so by the time you notice them at all there's already 3-5 missiles in flight towards you. I won't even get into the overkill homing on those things.

 

 

I meant an audio telegraph and you know it. Sometimes they walk up behind you or land there after jumping, and decide to stomp. The jump situation is also why I said both MOAs don't need both abilities.

 

 

As I said, high fire rate weapons do well against Nullifiers bubbles. Braton Vandal may not be the fastest, but it is fast, so it will do fine against them. Slow weapons have disproportionately bad performance against them, and it's nonsense. Try any sniper, bow, most shotguns, or the Opticor against the Corrupted Nullifier and you'll understand that something needs to change about it. And if you don't you are either blind or in denial.

 

 

I find it very, very rare outside of very low levels that slash or toxic procs will actually kill something, and usually just another bullet or two would kill them anyway if they do or would die from the proc. Enemy health ramps way, WAY up to the point where these procs almost never mean much when we get them, but enemy damage also ramps up to the point where another 200-300% damage from bleeds or toxic procs on us is usually deadly if not healed or removed in some way. Depending on what enemy, this point happens pretty early. Namely the Ballista, which can randomly get slash procs causing you to bleed for 400 damage by level 20. Either this damage needs to be capped so you can't randomly die from full health in one proc, or there needs to be a way for a player to take some action to reduce this damage that is not healing or removing it with an ability. Rolling seems to give a few frames of damage reduction, but timing the tick of the bleed to end up on the right frames is very unreliable. I want something reliable outside of playing a healing frame or consumables because I shouldn't need to prepare for the one odd time a bleed does way more damage than it should since normally they actually do reasonable amounts of damage.

Wasn't saying get up faster, per se ... just relocate where you're getting up, perhaps?

 

No, I didn't catch that you meant an audible tell. I would be all for that as well, since I find that I rely on sound as much, if not More, for situational awareness.

 

I also missed that you specified high fire rate > slow. Yes, the amount of damage on a hit should probably ... lengthen the delay before the bubble starts expanding again, perhaps?

 

This seems like it should be a re-work of the numbers. Rather than doing xx damage, ramped by percentage based on level, it should probably be percentage of 'frame total health, and that percentage gets ramped up, with a cap. eg, 1% health per tic for 5 seconds at level 1, and 15% health per tic for 5 seconds as a maximum at like level 150, so 1% increase per 10. Still put the fear of mortality there, and make someone stay on their toes (/ make trin useful).

 

 

 

side note: thank you for making this discussion more constructive. I enjoy these.

[RonanFrost]

Plus when we knock them down they are already on there feet when someone uses something to impact them and heavygunners can continue with there knockdown attack even when hindered by one of our attacks and that causes her to be on her feet and already shooting you on the ground.

 

 

And Bleed proc spam.

 

I frequently use flying kick suppression to keep a mob down (any mob) while we wait for a high level oops wave, where the defense target took some hits, to heal. Only thing I've seen pop them to their feet is electric. That should probably be fixed as it's an animation "exploit". Don't use electric on knockdowns, if you can help it.

 

Situational awareness still wins more often than not. There are very few arguments that greater awareness to begin with would not combat.

[TargetDummy]

AI cheating in stealth. Conditions when in full stealth without killing anything, without even any sound, not a single enemie seen by, without even touching anything except floor  (like full stealth on Exterminate mission as Loki 99% invisible just walking on level)... enemies WILL KNOW where you are and will be silently alarmed. Complitely destroys stealth approach in some cases. Reproducible 100% of the time no matter the faction.

I even had situation when random ballista started lockdown right after mission started, while being in the other room, vent crate and few solid walls away from me.

[Tulzscha]

General Discussion isn't the place for feedback threads, please read and understand:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/318374-please-read-before-posting-threads-what-is-and-isnt-general-discussion/

 

Moved to the proper section.

[Centias]

Wasn't saying get up faster, per se ... just relocate where you're getting up, perhaps?

 

No, I didn't catch that you meant an audible tell. I would be all for that as well, since I find that I rely on sound as much, if not More, for situational awareness.

 

I also missed that you specified high fire rate > slow. Yes, the amount of damage on a hit should probably ... lengthen the delay before the bubble starts expanding again, perhaps?

 

This seems like it should be a re-work of the numbers. Rather than doing xx damage, ramped by percentage based on level, it should probably be percentage of 'frame total health, and that percentage gets ramped up, with a cap. eg, 1% health per tic for 5 seconds at level 1, and 15% health per tic for 5 seconds as a maximum at like level 150, so 1% increase per 10. Still put the fear of mortality there, and make someone stay on their toes (/ make trin useful).

 

 

 

side note: thank you for making this discussion more constructive. I enjoy these.

 

That makes sense too, rolling to control where you get up vs just getting up where you land after the knockdown. Gives you options. Roll for cover, or roll away from enemies, roll toward your friends, roll yourself off a ledge, etc.

 

Really, anything to help slow weapons vs the nullifier bubble would help at this point. The damage cap is so low that most slow weapons hit it easily, and most of the damage is wasted. The argument always comes back to "use a fast secondary", but I don't think a single enemy should be dictating my weapon selection like that. If it works against the rest of the faction, it shouldn't be such a terrible choice against just that one enemy. If it at least had a sort of supression effect on the bubble to keep it down longer, or cause other shots to make it drain faster, or something, that could work too. It just seems really weird that such a huge amount of damage is largely being ignored, though.

 

It's tough to find the right damage balance for the damage procs. I sort of like your idea because the damage sounds pretty reigned in, such that even if a Grineer on Ceres firing a Grakata kept getting bleed procs, it wouldn't be immediately deadly unless it kept happening back to back. I would even say it could go up a bit, say like, 1% per second per 5 levels. So a level 10 causes you to take a bleed proc for about 10% health, while a level 30 causes a bleed proc for about 30%. Above level 50, taking 2 bleed procs without getting any healing in between would mean death, but by that time you're already gonna be losing shields and health a lot more often anyway.

 

 

A good exchange of ideas is always appreciated.

[ThePresident777]

Define cheap?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Define cheap?

 

At worst, attacks that have large penalties that can't be avoided. Ballistas are probably the worst example of this right now, but it could also extend to Seekers, Toxic Eximi, Nullifiers, and Slash procs.

 

At best, attacks that are incredibly difficult to avoid for what they do. Corrupted Bombard rockets fit this role, offering no reasonable or logical means of avoidance--dodging doesn't work (they make 180 degree turns), using mobility skills doesn't work (they follow through them), cover doesn't work, they fire quickly, and are too fast to run from. Other enemies like this are Hellion Dargyns, Hellions, and grenades.

Edited April 10, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[RonanFrost]

 

General Discussion isn't the place for feedback threads, please read and understand:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/318374-please-read-before-posting-threads-what-is-and-isnt-general-discussion/

 

Moved to the proper section.

 

Thanks Tulz. It started off a discussion, but it really is more feedback at this point. Thanks for catching that.

 

That makes sense too, rolling to control where you get up vs just getting up where you land after the knockdown. Gives you options. Roll for cover, or roll away from enemies, roll toward your friends, roll yourself off a ledge, etc.

 

Really, anything to help slow weapons vs the nullifier bubble would help at this point. The damage cap is so low that most slow weapons hit it easily, and most of the damage is wasted. The argument always comes back to "use a fast secondary", but I don't think a single enemy should be dictating my weapon selection like that. If it works against the rest of the faction, it shouldn't be such a terrible choice against just that one enemy. If it at least had a sort of supression effect on the bubble to keep it down longer, or cause other shots to make it drain faster, or something, that could work too. It just seems really weird that such a huge amount of damage is largely being ignored, though.

 

It's tough to find the right damage balance for the damage procs. I sort of like your idea because the damage sounds pretty reigned in, such that even if a Grineer on Ceres firing a Grakata kept getting bleed procs, it wouldn't be immediately deadly unless it kept happening back to back. I would even say it could go up a bit, say like, 1% per second per 5 levels. So a level 10 causes you to take a bleed proc for about 10% health, while a level 30 causes a bleed proc for about 30%. Above level 50, taking 2 bleed procs without getting any healing in between would mean death, but by that time you're already gonna be losing shields and health a lot more often anyway.

 

 

A good exchange of ideas is always appreciated.

 

Yeah. I'm sure you're on page with me at this point, and perhaps we should make it it's own thread, but I'm talking new animation entirely. No dive-roll, since you come straight to standing out of that. Talking barrel-roll here. Possibly even when you're down and bleeding out? We may be onto something.

 

The nullifier bubble, yeah. I don't use slow RoF weapons often, so I was unaware there was a damage cap. I would definitely say the simple solution there is:

Damage in excess of cap applied to bubble regen delay.

Not sure the formula there, because really high damage could basically make it never have a chance to regen. Bet you there's room for more percentage work in there though. In terms of a game where you have scaling involved, it's really difficult to balance hard numbers against percentages.

 

As for bleed procs, Exactly, sir. With the numbers I threw out there, at level 150 a single bleed would cut you down 75%, but over the course of 5 seconds. If you're unaware or ignore it, you get punished for ignorance, but well ... that's what situational awareness is for. 5 seconds is plenty of time for your healer to hit something, or you to move and pop a health restore. As for double-procs ... I think stacked procs should be impossibru. New proc refreshing/overwriting the old one, sure, but not stacked. Even refreshing with a 15%hp tick is going to hurt, a lot.

[ThePresident777]

How are Ballistas not avoidable?  They can't shoot through cover.  They don't take cover so they're visible.  They have a slow reload.  They have terrible aim in close range.  Even their long range aim is not super precise.  They have low defenses.  The way to beat them is, look out for them, take cover, close the distance.  They are beatable.

 

Bombard rockets are avoidable too.  Bombards are highly visible.  They don't react very quickly.  Their rockets fly slow and corner poorly.  The rockets can be outrun.  The target lock wears off with distance and obstacles.  The way to beat the rockets is run far and make the rockets weave around a bunch obstacles to wear down the target lock.  Bombards are beatable.

 

There is not a single enemy in this game that can not be beat by mobility, by playing like a Space Ninja.