Current Dominant Strategies (7.10.3)

[Thypari2013]

"A strategy is dominant if, regardless of what any other players do, the strategy earns a player a larger payoff than any other. Hence, a strategy is dominant if it is always better than any other strategy, for any profile of other players' actions. Depending on whether "better" is defined with weak or strict inequalities, the strategy is termed strictly dominant or weakly dominant. If one strategy is dominant, than all others are dominated."

 

Perfect balance is ensured when there are only normal strategies.

 

Map

n - normal strategy

u - unused / dominated strategy

wd - weakly dominant strategy

sd - strictly dominant strategy

 

Ash

Shuriken - u

Smoke Screen - wd

Teleport - n

Blade Storm - n

 

Banshee

Sonic Boom - u

Sonar - n

Silence - u

Soundquake - sd

 

Ember

Fireball - u

Overheat - n

Fire Blast - wd

World On Fire - u

 

Excalibur

Slash Dash - sd

Radial Blind - n

Super Jump - u

Radial Javelin - n

 

Frost

Freeze - n

Ice Wave - u

Snow Globe - sd

Avalanche - n

 

Loki

Decoy - wd

Invisibility - n

Switch Teleport - u

Radial DIsarm - n

 

Mag

Pull - u

Shield Polarize - n

Bullet Attractor - n

Crush - wd

 

Nyx

Mind Control - u

Psychic Bolts - u

Chaos - sd

Absorb - u

 

Rhino

Rhino Charge - n

Iron Skin - sd

Radial Blast - n

Rhino Stomp - u

 

Saryn

Venom - u

Molt - u

Contagion - n

Miasma - sd

 

Trynity

Well Of Life - n

Energy Vampire - sd

Link - sd

Blessing - n

 

Volt

Shock - u

Speed - n

Electric Shield - u

Overload - n

 

 

DE could measure number of abilities used (from all Warframes) and percentage of every single ability on that particular Warframe. Perfect balance would be 25% on all of them. Everything that is under 25% should be buffed, while everything above should be nerfed.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Thypari2013

[SolluxCaptorTA]

I think the tactic you suggest for buffs/nerfs is a little extreme. However, I do agree abilities need a rework.

[Xylia]

I dunno if I agree with Excalibur, the Slash Dash being the "sd".

 

I use Radial Javelin far more often than I do Slash Dash.

 

Slash Dash is usually used for:

 

1). Get the bleep out of dodge NOW (like Jackal's mortars)

2). Getting through Barrier Fences when people can't be bothered to shoot cameras in other rooms.

3). The odd time you're in a narrow hallway and there are mobs in your way.

4). You are Low Energy and Desperate and need SOMETHING and need it right now.

 

Otherwise, Radial Javelin is far better. Does far more damage and is a much better "OH CRAP, THESE NEED TO DIE NOW!" button. If anything I'd put Radial as WD and Slash Dash as N. Super Jump? Yeah, that's useless.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Xylia

[Afroman12]

With Loki I use Radial Disarm on defense missions especially Kappa. On Kappa it's AMAZING. Makes it so simple to just shoot have the Paris bow explode and everything die all in one shot... that or an Excalibur or Rhino will slash dash killing everything generating so many numbers I lag.

[GloriousYellowEmperor]

Your Banshee is a bit off. I'd say SQ is useful in Kappa and such, but once you get to higher level missions its more of a sonar + sniping thing.

Also you're making a lot of playstyle assumptions here.

I have NEVER seen a mag use shield polarize. Where are you getting these figures?

Edited May 13, 2013 by GloriousYellowEmperor

[liavalenth]

This does not seem like a good idea. Mostly because there is a large flaw.

 

DE could measure number of abilities used (from all Warframes) and percentage of every single ability on that particular Warframe. Perfect balance would be 25% on all of them. Everything that is under 25% should be buffed, while everything above should be nerfed.

 

If anything is under 25% then, by definition, something has to be over 25%. That is how percentages work, and your idea does not figure out which is the problem, it just weakens one and strengthens the other without prejudice.

 

If we take Mag (the one I started with, so I know more about it than I know about other ones) we have the four abilities;

 

Pull - a near useless ability, the only use of which seems to be pulling allies to you when they need healing, which is basically only needed with bosses.

Shield Polarize - Seems like it would be useful, but most enemies with shields it is faster to just shoot. Bosses, where this ability could shine, have their shields regenerate too fast to be useful.

Bullet Attractor - This is useless on most enemies as they go down fast enough without it. The only use this seems to have is bosses, and only if you use specific weapons (Gorgon + Bullet Attractor is fairly useful, but so situational as to be fairly pointless.)

Crush - AoE damage. This is a useful ability. As all three of the others are close to useless, this is the only one I use.

 

In the above Crush is probably used 80% or more of the time, but it is not because it needs to be nerfed. It is instead because all the other abilities need to be buffed. Enemies die fast enough that single target abilities are only helpful on bosses, and Pull does not work on bosses, Shield Polarize does not decrease shields by enough, and Bullet Attractor is situationally maybe useful at best. There are ways to make all of them more useful, but they do not go here. Point is, you need to identify the problem, not go off of what is used more.

 

EDIT: Due to finaLfrontiers post below, I realize I need to add that the above is my experience and is not based off testing or data. I believe it to be fairly accurate, but cannot prove its accuracy, you make take it as you will.

 

Edited May 13, 2013 by liavalenth

[finaLfrontier]

Shield Polarize is terrible dude. "u" all the way...

 

 

This does not seem like a good idea. Mostly because there is a large flaw.

 

 

If anything is under 25% then, by definition, something has to be over 25%. That is how percentages work, and your idea does not figure out which is the problem, it just weakens one and strengthens the other without prejudice.

 

If we take Mag (the one I started with, so I know more about it than I know about other ones) we have the four abilities;

 

Pull - a near useless ability, the only use of which seems to be pulling allies to you when they need healing, which is basically only needed with bosses.

Shield Polarize - Seems like it would be useful, but most enemies with shields it is faster to just shoot. Bosses, where this ability could shine, have their shields regenerate too fast to be useful.

Bullet Attractor - This is useless on most enemies as they go down fast enough without it. The only use this seems to have is bosses, and only if you use specific weapons (Gorgon + Bullet Attractor is fairly useful, but so situational as to be fairly pointless.)

Crush - AoE damage. This is a useful ability. As all three of the others are close to useless, this is the only one I use.

 

In the above Crush is probably used 80% or more of the time, but it is not because it needs to be nerfed. It is instead because all the other abilities need to be buffed. Enemies die fast enough that single target abilities are only helpful on bosses, and Pull does not work on bosses, Shield Polarize does not decrease shields by enough, and Bullet Attractor is situationally maybe useful at best. There are ways to make all of them more useful, but they do not go here. Point is, you need to identify the problem, not go off of what is used more.

This^

Although, Bullet Attractor is way more bomb than you make out. For me:

Bullet Attractor= 60%

Crush= 39%

Pull= 1% (pulling shields and used to KD officers)

Shield Polarize= Lol

[SnokyoDrift]

 

Banshee

Sonic Boom - u

Sonar - n

Silence - u

Soundquake - sd

Rhino

Rhino Charge - n

Iron Skin - sd

Radial Blast - n

Rhino Stomp - u

 

Trynity

Well Of Life - n

Energy Vampire - sd

Link - sd

Blessing - n

 

Here are some fixes for when you're not outleveling the enemies by a huge margin

 

Banshee

Sonic Boom - SD 

Sonar - SD

Silence - u

Soundquake - n

 

Trinity

Well Of Life - u

Energy Vampire - n

Link - n

In conjunction with an enemy that has a good health pool - SD otherwise Blessing becomes WD

Blessing - n

 

Rhino

Rhino Charge - n

Iron Skin - SD

Radial Blast - u

Rhino Stomp - WD

"If one strategy is dominant, than all others are dominated." Just because they're "dominated" doesn't meant they don't have a use. By the same token, strongly dominant skills do not make all others obsolete, rather they may be useless in their own right.

 

By the way, go watch the PA on 'imperfect balance'. True balance does not work in any complex game, much less a co-op PvE one. Even worse is your suggested method of evening out every frame. There is no reason behind it, just logic.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Tryysaeder

[Kattefjaes]

OP clearly doesn't know how to play Banshee if he thinks that Sonic Boom is unused. It's a core ability for managing packs of ancients, and extremely effective.

 

Everything changes when you are facing proper high-level enemies. Even a maxed Soundquake with maxed Reach and Focus ceases to become an IWIN button, and you actually have to pay attention.

 

(That said, these forums are full of people pontificating about things that they have barely used, it should be familiar by now)

Edited May 13, 2013 by Kattefjaes

[GloriousYellowEmperor]

 

EDIT: Due to finaLfrontiers post below, I realize I need to add that the above is my experience and is not based off testing or data. I believe it to be fairly accurate, but cannot prove its accuracy, you make take it as you will.

Pretty sure the OP needs to add this disclaimer too. His information seems highly opinion based, and also rings suspiciously of an "outsider's" point of view on some of the frames.

Just because YOU use it more/less doesn't make it dominant/underused.

[TheaMatticks]

You are defining single abilities as "strategies". This amuses me.

That being said, as an evaluation of how often various skills are used, it seems decently accurate.

I also don't want every skill to be perfectly balanced with every other skill. Partly, because each skill has vastly different utility. Labeling it as strategy implies that each skill should be equally valid in any given situation...which is silly. Skills by their very nature are better at some things than others.

You shouldn't be using that targets a single opponent when there's a mob. You shouldn't be using an AoE when there are single opponents(even if it's more powerful, it might be more energy efficient to use a weaker single target skill). You're not going to use super jump to fight people(although if they took that suggestion of making jump attacks deal more damage with greater fall distance, this would be kinda nifty), etc.

Edited May 13, 2013 by therundown

[finaLfrontier]

EDIT: Due to finaLfrontiers post below, I realize I need to add that the above is my experience and is not based off testing or data. I believe it to be fairly accurate, but cannot prove its accuracy, you make take it as you will.

Same for me. The percentages I provided were just estimations of my own usages. Just wanted to point out that Bullet Attractor is bomb diggity on bosses and officers.

 

I've had this discussion before, and people seem to either forget, or never realize that Bullet Attractor also neutralizes enemy fire.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

For more perspective,

Extra Credits: Balancing for Skill

Extra Credits: Perfect Imbalance

 

THINGS TO CONSIDER BEFORE SUGGESTING A NERF
1. If you're talking about a single ability, please consider it in conjunction with the rest of the abilities of said frame. What kind of impact will it have on the usability of the frame? Will people start ONLY using said skill, or will they never touch it again, or the frame for that matter? Some frames are heavily dependent on a single skill, so if you're suggesting nerfing because of that dependency, what can be done about the other skills to make up for this?
2. We're all special snowflakes. You especially. Your mommy was right. You're the specialist of them all. But lets pretend for a minute that EVERYONE is a special snowflake(I know, what a joke) and that everyone's opinion is important. Will your idea help or harm others in general? Does it speak to how to more of the community, or does it seem like you're the only one who seems to need it? if its the second, you may want to reconsider for now(just to keep these less special snowflakes fooled).
3. Do you OWN the frame? Do you use it? if not, what do you think people who use the frame will think of your buff/nerf? Now I don't mean to be a debby downer, but when its this easy to "walk a mile in their shoes" I'd suggest doing it first before making feedback.
4. Might you be a TINY bit biased by kill count? Are you not feeling like the one man carry in a group of Tenno? Is that other guy racking up way too many kills when YOU should be in the spotlight? If so, try a solo game. I guarantee you'll be the top dog in your party. If it seems like your teammate is still getting more kills than you at that point, however, it might be time to contact support or a psychiatric clinic.
5. How is it a balance issue? Don't tell me its a balance issue, don't tell me its OP. Tell me HOW. I can't do anything with the statement "IRON SKIN OP RIOT DE NERF" and neither can DE, until you tell them what exactly is the problem.

Oh and consider the stats and do not take passive mods into consideration as well. You shouldn't take the weapons into consideration as well if you are just nerfing a frame.



By the way, my own list goes like this:

Ash - lvl 9
Shuriken - wd
Smoke Screen - sd
Teleport - u
Blade Storm - n

Banshee - don't own (next on my build list after Frost Prime)

Ember - don't own

Excalibur - Prime and normal both lvl 30
Slash Dash - sd
Radial Blind - wd
Super Jump - n
Radial Javelin - u

Frost - don't own

Loki - lvl 0

Mag - don't own

Nyx - don't own

Rhino - lvl 30
Rhino Charge - wd
Iron Skin - sd
Radial Blast - n
Rhino Stomp - u

Saryn - don't own

Trynity - lvl 13 (currently lvling)
I'm not using any of her skills now.

Volt - lvl 30
Shock - n
Speed - n
Electric Shield - u
Overload - sd

This is based on my playstyle. I'm an aggressive player unless the enemies are too strong. I'm more dependant on gunplay than frames. I use Hek lvl 30 or Gorgon lvl 30, Lex lvl 30, Gram lvl 30. All frames and weapons potatoed. I mostly do assassinations everywhere and missions on Pluto, Ceres, Venus and Saturn mainly.

Edited May 13, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[MyXmaN]

For me:

 

 

Ash

Shuriken - u

Smoke Screen - sd

Teleport - u

Blade Storm - n

 

Banshee

Sonic Boom - wd

Sonar - n

Silence - u

Soundquake - wd

 

Mag

Pull - u

Shield Polarize - n

Bullet Attractor - u

Crush - sd

 

Volt

Shock - u

Speed - sd

Electric Shield - n

Overload - sd